[analogue SPRINKLES]

"Suicides accounted for 55 percent of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In 2005, homicides accounted for 40 percent of gun deaths. Accidents accounted for 3 percent. The remaining 2 percent included legal killings, such as when police do the shooting, and cases that involve undetermined intent."

Surprising fact: Half of gun deaths are suicides - Yahoo! News

Good thing all these guns are around though to protect your family from burglars and to go hunting though (just be sure to hit deers and not other hunters though).

[Uncle Skeleton]

I don't think the deer deaths are included in those stats

[BRussell]

It's not surprising to anyone who has seen those statistics before - the numbers have been constant forever.

[hyteckit]

How do they determine if the death was an accident or suicide?

Suicide note? Didn't realize so many wrote suicide notes.

How many of those suicide deaths by gun, are murder/suicide incidents where they killed someone, and then themselves? How many murders are made to look like suicides?

[finboy]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

"Suicides accounted for 55 percent of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths in 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In 2005, homicides accounted for 40 percent of gun deaths. Accidents accounted for 3 percent. The remaining 2 percent included legal killings, such as when police do the shooting, and cases that involve undetermined intent."

Surprising fact: Half of gun deaths are suicides - Yahoo! News

Good thing all these guns are around though to protect your family from burglars and to go hunting though (just be sure to hit deers and not other hunters though).

That really says nothing about the effectiveness or availability of guns as protection or deterrent. What it DOES say is that gun rights are connected to the right-to-choose: those people wouldn't have been able to end their own lives as easily, and the state has no right to keep them from ending their own life.

I mean heck, if the state can't keep them from having an abortion, it shouldn't be able to keep them from killing themselves with a gun, right? Isn't that the freedom of choice that we hear about all the time?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

How do they determine if the death was an accident or suicide? How many of those suicide deaths by gun, are murder/suicide incidents where they killed someone, and then themselves?

Suicide note? Didn't realize so many wrote suicide notes.

My guess is if you stuck a gun in your mouth and pulled a trigger it is hard to write off as an accident.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

My guess is if you stuck a gun in your mouth and pulled a trigger it is hard to write off as an accident.

What percentage of the gun suicides involved sticking a gun in the mouth? You can't ruled out murder either.

[subego]

Unless you don't support someone's (IMO indisputable) right to end their own life, taking issue with the fact that people have easy access to the means to do so rings almost obscenely hollow.

[hyteckit]

A suicidal person with a gun is never a good situation. What makes you think a suicidal person wouldn't harm someone else when he/she has a gun?

Lots of murder/suicide cases. Derange husband kills wife then himself. Derange mother kills kid and them herself. Jealous boyfriend kills girlfriend, then himself. High school student goes on a rampage, kills 10 and then himself.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by subego 

Unless you don't support someone's (IMO indisputable) right to end their own life, taking issue with the fact that people have easy access to the means to do so rings almost obscenely hollow.

There are folks who think we should ban "assault-looking" rifles and "Saturday Night Specials" (a term that should be racially offensive itself). If we ban cheap guns or guns that have a certain outward appearance, aren't we keeping some less affluent folks from being able to kill themselves, limiting suicide by gun to the rich only?

[subego]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

A suicidal person with a gun is never a good situation. What makes you think a suicidal person wouldn't harm someone else when he/she has a gun?

Lots of murder/suicide cases. Derange husband kills wife then himself. Derange mother kills kid and them herself. Jealous boyfriend kills girlfriend, then himself. High school student goes on a rampage, kills 10 and then himself.

Originally Posted by finboy 

There are folks who think we should ban "assault-looking" rifles and "Saturday Night Specials" (a term that should be racially offensive itself). If we ban cheap guns or guns that have a certain outward appearance, aren't we keeping some less affluent folks from being able to kill themselves, limiting suicide by gun to the rich only?

I've got to take off, so I'll have to answer both of these when I get back, I just think it's funny I'm gettin it from both ends.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What percentage of the gun suicides involved sticking a gun in the mouth? You can't ruled out murder either.

Ok you want to bring the 55% down that badly then eh? Ok lets say 20% of the "Suicides" are actually murder then. Does that make anything better?

[turtle777]

The real question is, how many of the suicides are actually accidents

-t

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The real question is, how many of the suicides are actually accidents

-t

The only accident is that someone too stupid to use a gun was given one in the first place.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

The only accident is that someone too stupid to use a gun was given one in the first place.

Well, if you are American, you were given that "right" by birth.






No, I'm not talking about being stupid, but to bear arms

-t

[hyteckit]

2% of 31,000 firearms deaths are legal killing such as when police do the shooting or self defense.

That leaves self defense a very small percentage. Even accidents at 3% is greater than self defense.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by subego 

Unless you don't support someone's (IMO indisputable) right to end their own life, taking issue with the fact that people have easy access to the means to do so rings almost obscenely hollow.

As a psychologist, I have a very different view of suicide than simply a right or a free choice. Sure, there are cases, especially end of life situations, where people may want to end their untreatable suffering. But I bet most gun suicides are not like that. They're mostly the result of a depression that was likely to ameliorate in the future or was treatable, combined with easy access to a gun when the person was at their low point. I think your implication is basically that we ought to keep guns in the homes of depressed people just in case they need to exercise their right.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

How do they determine if the death was an accident or suicide?

Suicide note? Didn't realize so many wrote suicide notes.

I think almost all of them are very clear. There may be some ambiguity in a couple percent of cases, but not enough to really call those numbers into question.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I think almost all of them are very clear. There may be some ambiguity in a couple percent of cases, but not enough to really call those numbers into question.

I don't know about that. Russian roulette is pretty popular among mobster, gangsters, triads, and loan sharks. I don't know if it should be classified as suicide or accident.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I don't know about that. Russian roulette is pretty popular among mobster, gangsters, triads, and loan sharks. I don't know if it should be classified as suicide or accident.

Out of the 30,000 gun deaths in the US per year, how many do you think were from Russian roulette?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I don't know about that. Russian roulette is pretty popular among mobster, gangsters, triads, and loan sharks. I don't know if it should be classified as suicide or accident.

Again, what does it matter. The people are still dead. Actually that accidents are even more shocking to me.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

Out of the 30,000 gun deaths in the US per year, how many do you think were from Russian roulette?

Don't know. It's been classified as suicide or accident. How many gang members are there? Russian roulette is used in gang initiations too.

My guess it's more than killings from self defense.

[hyteckit]

Just 2 days ago.

Winnipeg Free Press

If the 15 year old was alone playing russian roulette and kills himself, how would the police classified it? Accident or suicide?

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by finboy 

"Saturday Night Specials" (a term that should be racially offensive itself).

Huh?

Do only one particular race do "specials" on a Saturday night or something? Do the other races go for a Thursday?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Just 2 days ago.

Winnipeg Free Press

If the 15 year old was alone playing russian roulette and kills himself, how would the police classified it? Accident or suicide?

Interesting question. I guess I'd argue you have to be suicidal to play Russian Roulette. Or at least crazy.

[subego]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

As a psychologist, I have a very different view of suicide than simply a right or a free choice. Sure, there are cases, especially end of life situations, where people may want to end their untreatable suffering. But I bet most gun suicides are not like that. They're mostly the result of a depression that was likely to ameliorate in the future or was treatable, combined with easy access to a gun when the person was at their low point. I think your implication is basically that we ought to keep guns in the homes of depressed people just in case they need to exercise their right.

These are interesting points which I'd be interested in debating, and I also think it's interesting that you're a psychologist (honest here on all three counts, no sarcasm )

That being said, seeing as how my statement was directed at people who don't have a problem with one's right to kill themselves, the comment wasn't addressed to you... expressly.

To put it another way, had the OP contained what you said, or something like this:

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Lots of murder/suicide cases. Derange husband kills wife then himself. Derange mother kills kid and them herself. Jealous boyfriend kills girlfriend, then himself. High school student goes on a rampage, kills 10 and then himself.

as opposed to an obnoxious statement about "deer", you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

Huh?

Do only one particular race do "specials" on a Saturday night or something? Do the other races go for a Thursday?

I feel like I've heard this story before, but I wouldn't mind a refresher.

As to the question contained in the post you refer too (since it was directed at me), I'm not someone who's going to say you can't have a gun, even if the gun is designed to "assault" someone or has a day of the week attached to it. Citations upon request.

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by subego 

I feel like I've heard this story before, but I wouldn't mind a refresher.

As to the question contained in the post you refer too (since it was directed at me), I'm not someone who's going to say you can't have a gun, even if the gun is designed to "assault" someone or has a day of the week attached to it. Citations upon request.

OK, I've just been to look up "Saturday Night Special", and wiki came up with this:

Roy Innis, president of the activist group Congress on Racial Equality, said "To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that you're putting a money test on getting a gun. It's racism in its worst form."

Which seems to be implying that all non-white people are poor. And that not letting said poor people buy a gun at discount rates is worse than gassing six million Jews. Clearly, the bloke is an idiot.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

And that not letting said poor people buy a gun at discount rates is worse than gassing six million Jews.

How do you know that's what he's saying?

He might have meant that buying a gun at a discount rate is worse than 200 years of institutionalized slavery.

[turtle777]

Heck, let's play dudes game.

If you are poor, why the f*** should you waste your money on guns ?
Buy some food or edumacation.

-t

[Uncle Doof]

nm.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Just 2 days ago.

Winnipeg Free Press

If the 15 year old was alone playing russian roulette and kills himself, how would the police classified it? Accident or suicide?

Yet strangely you have avoided answering the question of "why does it matter" for the 3rd time.

[mduell]

This says half of gun deaths are suicides, not half of suicides are by gun. What portion of suicides are by gun?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Good thing all these guns are around though to protect your family from burglars and to go hunting though (just be sure to hit deers and not other hunters though).

It's really dopey to try and make it a gun issue, but then again, leave it to you.

Were you even aware that Canada has a higher suicide rate than the US? Of course you weren't. And the US ranks pretty low for overall suicide rates.

If people are prone to kill themselves, it's pretty clear that having a gun or not is a very small factor, and I'd venture a guess is not even close the top method of choice world wide. If it were, I doubt we'd see nations with far fewer guns have far higher suicide rates.

[Chuckit]

I have to agree, I don't see how this is an indictment of guns. If anything, this sounds pretty positive for guns — half of the deaths they inflict are intentional suicides that have nothing to do with the presence of guns. If we took away guns and these people started offing themselves by wrist-slitting, would razors then become a major national issue?

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

As a psychologist, I have a very different view of suicide than simply a right or a free choice. Sure, there are cases, especially end of life situations, where people may want to end their untreatable suffering. But I bet most gun suicides are not like that. They're mostly the result of a depression that was likely to ameliorate in the future or was treatable, combined with easy access to a gun when the person was at their low point. I think your implication is basically that we ought to keep guns in the homes of depressed people just in case they need to exercise their right.

As someone who intends to end his own life at some point, I object to the cliché that depressions typically ameliorate or can be treated. There are usually good reasons people are depressed enough that they want to kill themselves, and pumping them full of uppers or expecting them to get over it seems like do-gooder nanny state interference to me. It’s not as if people are under the obligation to go on existing when they don’t want to.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Yet strangely you have avoided answering the question of "why does it matter" for the 3rd time.

What do you mean why does it matter?

55% of gun deaths are suicides doesn't tell you much. How many suicides are actually accidents. How many are murder/suicide situations. What's the breakdown by age. Why provide stats if you don't care to understand the stats?

Does it matter to you that there are more gun deaths cause by accidents than legal killings from cop shooting and self defense combined?

Why does it matter? Seriously? Why doesn't it matter?

[stupendousman]

On a related note, statistics show that 98% of all deaths involving rope are the result of suicide. 1% is accidental and 1% is due to foul play.



...okay..I made up the statistics but I'm guessing they probably aren't too far off the mark and should help illustrate the lack of any real meaning for the statistics at the beginning of this thread.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

In 2005, homicides accounted for 40 percent of gun deaths. Accidents accounted for 3 percent. The remaining 2 percent included legal killings, such as when police do the shooting, and cases that involve undetermined intent."

Ok, so this is worrisome.

Chances are 20 TIMES higher to be shot by a criminal than by the police ?

I feel safer already

-t

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by subego 

These are interesting points which I'd be interested in debating, and I also think it's interesting that you're a psychologist (honest here on all three counts, no sarcasm )

That being said, seeing as how my statement was directed at people who don't have a problem with one's right to kill themselves, the comment wasn't addressed to you... expressly.

I understand, but I just wanted to clarify that I think it's a lot murkier than simply being in favor of the right to suicide or not. I personally agree with the Oregon physician-assisted suicide law and would like to see it applied elsewhere, so I consider myself (and I think most people) to be in favor of a general "right to commit suicide."

But I also believe that in the majority of cases, suicide is not really freely chosen in the same way but is instead the result of being at the low point of a depression that would normally be treatable or get better with time. And I think that's especially true of gun suicides. In those cases, I'd want to make sure that a person with depression doesn't have easy access to a gun, in the same way I'd take the car keys away from a friend who is drunk, for example.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

As someone who intends to end his own life at some point, I object to the cliché that depressions typically ameliorate or can be treated. There are usually good reasons people are depressed enough that they want to kill themselves, and pumping them full of uppers or expecting them to get over it seems like do-gooder nanny state interference to me. It’s not as if people are under the obligation to go on existing when they don’t want to.

1) It's not a cliche that depression usually ameliorates or is treatable, it's the truth.
2) Depression isn't treated with uppers, it's treated with anti-depressants, and I'm not trying to be flippant by pointing that out: "uppers" implies that you're just masking a depression by making someone hyperactive.
3) I agree that if the government pumped depressed people full of drugs it would be do-gooder nanny state interference. But who in the world said anything about such a thing?

[lpkmckenna]

red, you say the strangest things about mental health issues.

What does this:

Originally Posted by red rocket 

As someone who intends to end his own life at some point ...

Have to do with this:

... I object to the cliché that depressions typically ameliorate or can be treated.

That's some pretty bizarre sentence construction.

There are usually good reasons people are depressed enough that they want to kill themselves ...

If a person is depressed, that means they can't think clearly about their situation, ergo they cannot have "a good reason."

It’s not as if people are under the obligation to go on existing when they don’t want to.

Ok, but what needs to be addressed is why they don't want to go on existing.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Ok so by the sounds of things here guns are a good thing because:

A) They mostly only kill the owner.
B) The help rid the world of those annoying suicidal people.

[(s)macintosh]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

My guess is if you stuck a gun in your mouth and pulled a trigger it is hard to write off as an accident.

Are you serious? I always floss with my .45

What could possibly go wrong?

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by BRussell

1) It's not a cliche that depression usually ameliorates or is treatable, it's the truth.

‘Time heals all wounds’ isn’t a cliché? That’s what you’re saying, is it not?

And when it doesn’t, you can make it all better with treatment?

2) Depression isn't treated with uppers, it's treated with anti-depressants, and I'm not trying to be flippant by pointing that out: "uppers" implies that you're just masking a depression by making someone hyperactive.

Point taken, guess I could have worded that better.

Let me put it like this: The ‘anti-depressants’ may not be making the patient hyperactive, but they’re still chemically altering the patient’s state of mind. I suppose you could argue that the depression has already done that, and the anti-depressants are only setting that right, but in my view that would be a flawed argument. As long as we’re assuming that the depression isn’t caused by some kind of medical problem but has its causes in real-world events, the depression is arguably justified. What, then, are the anti-depressants doing to the patient? Do they make him more mellow? If you won’t call them ‘uppers’, what would you call them, based on what effect they have? ‘Mellow yellows’? ‘Calmies’? ‘Dontworryums’? What gives anyone the right to deny people their depressions?

3) I agree that if the government pumped depressed people full of drugs it would be do-gooder nanny state interference. But who in the world said anything about such a thing?

Well, you did state your expert opinion regarding the treatability of potential suicides. I take it you are expressing the mainstream view in the psychological and psychiatric community that somebody intending to commit suicide is depressed and that it is ‘the truth’ that depression ‘usually ameliorates or is treatable’, and if that is the case, it has obvious consequences for people who intend to kill themselves. The legal and insurance systems frown on suicide, the ‘moral’ establishment frowns on suicide, widespread elements in the medical profession frown upon suicide, and the psychological establishment seems to frown upon it, as well. There is pressure within the system on suicidal people to get treatment against their will. Don’t tell me there isn’t, I’ve seen my share of the ‘mentally ill’ manipulated, lied to, restrained and dragged screaming into mental hospitals.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Ok so by the sounds of things here guns are a good thing because:

A) They mostly only kill the owner.
B) The help rid the world of those annoying suicidal people.

Yep. Just like rope.

[ironknee]

serious question:

anyone know of a study of this online? I'm interested in more data.

thanks

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Lots of murder/suicide cases. Derange husband kills wife then himself. Derange mother kills kid and them herself. Jealous boyfriend kills girlfriend, then himself. High school student goes on a rampage, kills 10 and then himself.

Well... regarding the whole "high school student goes on a rampage, kills 10 and the them himself" incident; there were likely at least three gun laws broken in committing this crime. Are you saying we need more gun laws?

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

red, you say the strangest things about mental health issues.

If a person is depressed, that means they can't think clearly about their situation, ergo they cannot have "a good reason."

Ok, but what needs to be addressed is why they don't want to go on existing.

I'm curious about this also. I'm hoping red rocket addresses this. I mean, it's not every day that someone would pop into a conversation beginning with "As someone who intends to end his own life at some point..." then move onto an argument as if nothing just happened. What the?

[ebuddy]

These sorts of stats always seem to imply a connection between guns and (enter social ill), but IMO the issue is a little more complex than this. Why the focus on the tool and not the person? One should point to Japan's low gun ownership-high suicide rate for example or the relationship between occupation and suicidal tendency.

There's also a lot of talk about "rights to suicide" and this has always struck me as odd. The State did not grant you the right to birth, it did not endow you with your life, and you are ultimately in control of when to end it. Suicide is not a "right" that can be given. It is a right you take if you so choose.