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iChelle · Oct 12, 2005, 04:34 PM

First of all, why are these new iPods only USB 2.0? Or are they really firewire compatible and apple is just not telling us? I mean, I can understand USB 2.0 can be sufficient for the Nano but come on now, USB for these video models?

Anywho, I assume the dock connector is still the same as the previous iPod generation. Could I use my firewire cable on the iPod video??? *praying*

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 12, 2005, 04:40 PM

Really in the end USB 2.0 is just as fast as Firewire. When you have to look at compatability, all macs have at least usb 1.1 if not an add in card these days like mine for usb 2.0. Plus for those PC geeks all they have standard is USB 2.0. So why in this day in age should they add in Firewire when USB 2.0 is now in all new computers, mac and pc, and just as fast as the old Firewire. This would only be a good question if USB 2.0 didn't exist yet and you compare USB 1.1 to Firewire transfer rates. You also remove hardware from the guts of the iPod and make it slimmer and lighter or available for some other feature.

iChelle · Oct 12, 2005, 04:48 PM

thanks for your reply. guess i'm gonna jump ship then.

VxWolfxV · Oct 12, 2005, 04:52 PM

I'd also like to know if firewire is supported. My eMac doesn't have USB 2.0, so i'd be stuck with USB 1.1 since i can't add in a USB 2.0 card...

icruise · Oct 12, 2005, 04:55 PM

No, they do not seem to support firewire (probably it works for charging but not for updating, just like the nano). This seems to be a combination of two things:

1. USB 2 is pretty much ubiquitous on Windows machines, while firewire (especially powered firewire) is less common

2. They've already gotten to the point where most people (not me, but most people) can store their entire collections on the iPod, so just upping the storage space isn't seen as much of an incentive to upgrade. Making it slimmer and lighter is, however.

So if you have to get rid of either firewire or USB 2 to make the iPods a bit slimmer, they're going to choose firewire, obviously. I agree that it sucks, since firewire really is better, especially on Macs.

luckiesf1 · Oct 12, 2005, 05:51 PM

I was seriously considering upgrading to the new video ipod but since it looks like it dosen't support firewire I'll have to pass. My Powerbook doesn't support USB 2.0 and it'd be pain to upload all 14 GB of music plus the other files I keep on there for back up using USB 1.1, not to mention videos or tv shows. I guess I'll have to wait until the mactels come out and upgrade my computer.

I'm not too familiar with the technical side of things, but how would getting rid of Firewire make ipod's thinner? Wouldn't it be a firmware thing since the past ipods supported both? Plus Firewire 800 is faster than USB 2.0.

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 12, 2005, 06:02 PM

See then again Firewire 800 is a MAC feature I do believe, and PC's don't have it yet but I could be wrong, I do know their not standard. So again why have two interfaces when only one is needed nowadays to support both platforms.

For those who don't have USB 2.0 and only have 1.1, isn't there a Firewire to USB 2.0 adapter or something of the sorts?

icruise · Oct 12, 2005, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by luckiesf1

I'm not too familiar with the technical side of things, but how would getting rid of Firewire make ipod's thinner? Wouldn't it be a firmware thing since the past ipods supported both? Plus Firewire 800 is faster than USB 2.0.

You have to have a physical controller chip to use firewire (or USB). It's not like it's huge or anything, but I imagine when they were going through the list of things they could get rid of, they decided that was a possibility.

TailsToo · Oct 12, 2005, 07:41 PM

Profit margin - it costs less to only support USB - even $1 per iPod for the technology needed to run firewrire in 6.5 million units is a lot of money!

mduell · Oct 12, 2005, 08:28 PM

I'm not surprised to see them dropping FW support.
The chipset they use for external connections is about 40% faster for USB2 than FW400. The data rates for the little hard drives are no where near the limits of either bus, so it's an implmentation issue (and FW800 is pointless).

TailsToo: Apple does not have to pay $1/port royalty. They were the one charging that royalty for the name FireWire, but they've since dropped it entirely.

Eriamjh · Oct 12, 2005, 08:35 PM

No Firewire. Charging probably. Sucks.

Oh, and no remote port either.

wilsonng · Oct 12, 2005, 09:46 PM

This is the iPod halo effect taking place again. Owners of older Macs will have to ponder about getting a new Mac with USB 2.0 in order to make the iPod experience more pleasant.

This has got me wondering about getting a Mac Mini as a short- to mid-term solution before the Intel Macs come out. My 12" PB 867 with USB 1.1 will work but I'll probably have to let the iPod sync overnight to transfer 30GBs.

mduell · Oct 12, 2005, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Eriamjh

No Firewire. Charging probably. Sucks.

Apple says:
# Charging via USB to computer system or power adapter (sold separately)
* Fast-charge time: about 2 hours (charges up to 80% of battery capacity)
* Full-charge time: about 4 hours

The last 2 hours for 20% is a limitation imposed by the battery. The fast charge may be limited by the power capacity of USB, or it may also be limited by the new battery.

misc · Oct 12, 2005, 11:23 PM

Do any of the iPods have a remote port on them anymore? I think the miPods do. I like my remote a lot.

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 13, 2005, 12:12 AM

Actually none of them have remote ports anymore it looks like. Wonder what the new breed of attachments will be like, strickly dock connector? I would like to boast a nifty little plugable speaker that will attach onto this ipod since you can watch movies, it'd be a great addition for when you want to share them with someone so you don't have to hand over the ear buds.

CaptainHaddock · Oct 13, 2005, 12:59 AM

Really in the end USB 2.0 is just as fast as Firewire.

In the speed tests I've seen, USB 2.0 (on a Mac, at least) is only half the speed of Firewire 400. Most people will end up plugging into their 1.1 port anyway because there aren't any 2.0 ports on the keyboard.

What's with all the crippled products yesterday? iPods that have no Firewire, a remote and software that don't work with existing Macs, overpriced DRMed TV shows that are too low-quality to play full-screen (I'll stick to Bit-torrent, thanks).

I'm sure glad I got my 4G iPod three weeks ago and didn't wait for the video model.

mduell · Oct 13, 2005, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHaddock

Really in the end USB 2.0 is just as fast as Firewire.

In the speed tests I've seen, USB 2.0 (on a Mac, at least) is only half the speed of Firewire 400. Most people will end up plugging into their 1.1 port anyway because there aren't any 2.0 ports on the keyboard.

What's with all the crippled products yesterday? iPods that have no Firewire, a remote and software that don't work with existing Macs, overpriced DRMed TV shows that are too low-quality to play full-screen (I'll stick to Bit-torrent, thanks).

I'm sure glad I got my 4G iPod three weeks ago and didn't wait for the video model.

CNet's review of the 60GB iPod Photo:
Transfer times were excellent as well at a brisk 7.5MB per second over USB 2.0. For those interested, over FireWire (cable sold separately), the iPod Photo reached only 2.6MB per second.
Their review of the 40GB 4th gen got ~6.9MBps over USB2 and ~5.2MBps over FW400.

The chipset that the iPods use appears to be much faster at USB than FW.

Drakino · Oct 13, 2005, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

TailsToo: Apple does not have to pay $1/port royalty. They were the one charging that royalty for the name FireWire, but they've since dropped it entirely.

No, but his example was if the necessary components to add firewire connectivity to the iPod costs $1, then dropping it saves $1 per unit, and across say 6 million iPods sold will result in $6 million more profit.

Firewire doesn't work by magic, it requires a controller chip and is generally more complex to implement then a slave only variant of USB 2. And even a full USB2 master/slave chip these days (master for the USB camera connector) is much cheeper then firewire, mostly because of how many devices now have USB2 functionality compared to firewire.

Yeah, it's a shame Firewire is being dropped from the iPod (no more booting a Mac from an iPod), but cost wise I can see why they did it.

Rumor Addict · Oct 13, 2005, 04:38 AM

Firewire is becoming another lame duck port from apple. It was so far ahead of the game when USB was it's only competition but apple never managed to impose it as a standard for PeeCees. As soon as USB 2 came out all the PC manufactures went in that direction. its a major pain for an owner of an older mac. Firewire external drives are pricer than their USB 2 cousins and i suppose that firewire will meet its full demise at some point down the road.

dark3lf · Oct 13, 2005, 10:04 AM

Shouldn't this be a perfect vehicle for Firewire 2?

ism · Oct 13, 2005, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Rumor Addict

Firewire is becoming another lame duck port from apple. It was so far ahead of the game when USB was it's only competition but apple never managed to impose it as a standard for PeeCees. As soon as USB 2 came out all the PC manufactures went in that direction. its a major pain for an owner of an older mac. Firewire external drives are pricer than their USB 2 cousins and i suppose that firewire will meet its full demise at some point down the road.

Firewire won't disappear due to USB. It's still WAY better than USB for working with video:

1) Storage and editing devices. The only thing that might eventually kill it will be eSATA.

2) Connectivity and transfer. Video cameras, etc. All consumer and prosumer cameras (SDV and HDV) use FW. For firewire to go away something else will be required. A new technology. Perhaps Panasonic's P2. A cheaper HD-SDI? But this is quite a way down the line.

tritonus · 10:56 AM

Can someone tell me if my idea might work with 5G iPods?

1. I have a LaCie external harddrive, 250GB, triple interface (FireWire 800/400, USB 2.0)
2. I hook up the LaCie to the PowerBook via FireWire 800
3. I hoop up the iPod to the LaCie via USB 2.0 cable (provided with iPod 5G)
4. Syncing iPod and PowerBook (iTunes) with USB 2.0 (480) speed possible?

This would be a nice workaround for all PowerBook owners without USB 2.0 but external HD. Opinions?

ism · Oct 13, 2005, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by tritonus

Can someone tell me if my idea might work with 5G iPods?

I don't think so as USB requires a host (i.e. your mac to control it). Couldn't you get a USB2 card for your powerbook?

tritonus · Oct 13, 2005, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by ism

I don't think so as USB requires a host (i.e. your mac to control it). Couldn't you get a USB2 card for your powerbook?

Card just for iPod?!? I'd rather stick with my 4G iPod then.

It definitely works with my 4G iPod over LaCie (iPod -> FireWire 400 -> LaCie d2 -> FireWire 800 -> PowerBook).

ism · Oct 13, 2005, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by tritonus

Card just for iPod?!? I'd rather stick with my 4G iPod then.

It definitely works with my 4G iPod over LaCie (iPod -> FireWire 400 -> LaCie d2 -> FireWire 800 -> PowerBook).

Daisy chaining firewire OR daisy chaining usb works. It's mixing them that won't.

tritonus · Oct 13, 2005, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by ism

Daisy chaining firewire OR daisy chaining usb works. It's mixing them that won't.

Okay, I'm buying my next iPod together with a new PowerBook (Intel, with USB 2.0) then. Thanks.

cenutrio · Oct 13, 2005, 01:13 PM

My case.....

I have a Cube and a TiPB rev A. Old stuff I know but still works great. I know I won't buy a new PB until Intel is on board. The iMac is very, very tempting to replace my cube, however this is another history.

I also have a iPod 10 GB rev B, mac-only.

I would buy a 60GB iPod right now (and give the old one to my little sister as a present). I love that little machine. However, my computers lack USB 2.

I guess I'm screwed and a bit frustrated too.

icruise · Oct 13, 2005, 01:17 PM

Just buy a USB 2 PC card. They aren't very expensive.

cenutrio · Oct 13, 2005, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Icruise

Just buy a USB 2 PC card. They aren't very expensive.

Perfectly smart move. Good idea.

However, we're talking about more stuff to buy and it won't work in the cube.

My point was that instead of buying an iPod right now, I'll have to wait longer. I like to coordinate my acquisitions, but in this case I'll have to do everything in just one move (iPod+ computer). May be next year.

Don't get me wrong, I really think that the new iPod and iMacs are great. But I like to get the most of my gadgets, not just to buy by fashion.

mduell · 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by cenutrio

My case.....

I have a Cube and a TiPB rev A. Old stuff I know but still works great. I know I won't buy a new PB until Intel is on board. The iMac is very, very tempting to replace my cube, however this is another history.

I also have a iPod 10 GB rev B, mac-only.

I would buy a 60GB iPod right now (and give the old one to my little sister as a present). I love that little machine. However, my computers lack USB 2.

I guess I'm screwed and a bit frustrated too.

USB2 PCMCIA cards are $11. Even if one that's Mac compatible is twice the price, it's still only $2 more than what Apple charges for the FW iPod cable.

Originally Posted by tritonus

Can someone tell me if my idea might work with 5G iPods?

1. I have a LaCie external harddrive, 250GB, triple interface (FireWire 800/400, USB 2.0)
2. I hook up the LaCie to the PowerBook via FireWire 800
3. I hoop up the iPod to the LaCie via USB 2.0 cable (provided with iPod 5G)
4. Syncing iPod and PowerBook (iTunes) with USB 2.0 (480) speed possible?

This would be a nice workaround for all PowerBook owners without USB 2.0 but external HD. Opinions?

Doubtful. Usually external drives with multiple ports will only chain USB to USB or FW to FW. As I said above, a USB2 PCMCIA card shouldn't be much more than $20.

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 13, 2005, 06:19 PM

Hold Up Guys, those who are wanting firewire checkout this product:

SendStation PocketDock

It's actually in the Apple Store under iPod Accessories. Convertes USB iPods to use Firewire connections. If this works on the new one I'm gona get one so I don't have to buy a new dock and cables for it. Best of all, 13$ !!

cenutrio · Oct 13, 2005, 06:39 PM

A heck of a find. Nice job IFLY2HIGH (nice nickname too

inkhead · Oct 13, 2005, 07:05 PM

First of all I don't get the people who want firewire. Why? It's not faster for this device, they are limited by the drive.

1. Not any faster with firewire
2. USB2 is better for power consumption
3. If your making a small device go with one unifed connector type USB2, which is better, because you can go Windows or Mac.
4. It will work with usb 1.1 but that is slow
5. if you only have usb 1 in your computer, you SHOULDn't be WASTING your money on a iPod, you should spend that $$$ towards a new computer
6. If you have a tower mac, with PCI slots you can add USB2 pci card for $10 (fry's electronics or elsewhere online)
7. Just stop complaining. Your made because your 3 year old $900 ibook can't work as fast with a $400 ipod. Upgrade your outdating %#(%#* computer hardware.

tritonus · Oct 13, 2005, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by inkhead

7. Just stop complaining. Your made because your 3 year old $900 ibook can't work as fast with a $400 ipod. Upgrade your outdating %#(%#* computer hardware.

Oh yeah, my original aluminum 17" PowerBook G4 is a bit more than 2 years old. What an old piece of crap, right? And it was just $3299, so a $299 iPod is really pushing the limits of this machine, I guess.

tritonus · Oct 13, 2005, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by IFLY2HIGH

Hold Up Guys, those who are wanting firewire checkout this product:

SendStation PocketDock

It's actually in the Apple Store under iPod Accessories. Convertes USB iPods to use Firewire connections. If this works on the new one I'm gona get one so I don't have to buy a new dock and cables for it. Best of all, 13$ !!

Now that's what I call real HELP!
Apple Store in Switzerland charges about double the price of $13, but then again...
Please tell us if it works with 5G iPods.
Great find!

wilsonng · Oct 13, 2005, 07:47 PM

It's not easy as you think to replace my outdating %#(%#* computer hardware.....

In less than a year from now, everybody's %#(%#* computer hardware will be outdated when the Intel Macs arrive...

I'm gonna just let the iPod video sync overnight if I ever decide to get one.

The Mac Minis are a nice secondary computer to have and might be worth a consideration.

For now, I'm happily playing QuickTime videos on my %#(%#* outdated 12" PowerBook.

Yes having video playback is nice to think about on an iPod but I'm not very fond of watching anything on my camera phone much less a 2.5" screen.

Watching Resident Evil on my cousin's PSP was nice but it lost its *wow* factor for me.

You still have your iBook to watch movies. I still have my %#(%#* 12" PowerBook to watch movies. It's gonna be a more pleasant experience with your iBook rather than an iPod.

Big Mac · 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by IFLY2HIGH

Hold Up Guys, those who are wanting firewire checkout this product:

SendStation PocketDock

It's actually in the Apple Store under iPod Accessories. Convertes USB iPods to use Firewire connections. If this works on the new one I'm gona get one so I don't have to buy a new dock and cables for it. Best of all, 13$ !!

Unfortunately, I doubt that's going to work, IFLY. You're talking about a dock that simply has the dock connector on the iPod end and a male firewire connector on the other end. In other words, it's just a converter. If the iPod lacks the logic to support Firewire, as the specs sheet implies, then a simple converter isn't going to do the trick.

Originally Posted by inkhead

First of all I don't get the people who want firewire. Why? It's not faster for this device, they are limited by the drive.

1. Not any faster with firewire
2. USB2 is better for power consumption
3. If your making a small device go with one unifed connector type USB2, which is better, because you can go Windows or Mac.
4. It will work with usb 1.1 but that is slow
5. if you only have usb 1 in your computer, you SHOULDn't be WASTING your money on a iPod, you should spend that $$$ towards a new computer
6. If you have a tower mac, with PCI slots you can add USB2 pci card for $10 (fry's electronics or elsewhere online)
7. Just stop complaining. Your made because your 3 year old $900 ibook can't work as fast with a $400 ipod. Upgrade your outdating %#(%#* computer hardware.

I'll give the first three points the benefit of the doubt, but you're all wet on 4, 5 and 7. USB 1 is not an option, since it's just too damn slow. Unless I am mistaken, Apple continued to sell USB 1 only Macs through 2003, so that some with only two year old Macs are locked out of the nano and new iPod. It is totally illegitimate to claim that a 2-3 year-old Mac is obsolete, which is what you're saying when you assert owners of such Macs shouldn't be buying iPods. I suppose you believe such Macs should be discarded as ewaste. You're talking about fully capable Macs, but for Apple refusal to support its own standard. Tiger came out not too long ago, and I believe any Mac that meets its minimum requirements should also be supported by the iPod. Unless Apple has a damn good technical or financial case for eliminating Firewire support, I'll be forced to consider it yet another example of the new Apple selling out. Next year you'll likely be telling us that our Macs are crappy because they don't have Intel Inside.

icruise · Oct 13, 2005, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by IFLY2HIGH

Hold Up Guys, those who are wanting firewire checkout this product:

SendStation PocketDock

It's actually in the Apple Store under iPod Accessories. Convertes USB iPods to use Firewire connections. If this works on the new one I'm gona get one so I don't have to buy a new dock and cables for it. Best of all, 13$ !!

I think you're misunderstanding what that does. It is meant to save you from having to carry around the proprietary iPod cable. It allows you to plug in a standard USB or firewire cable instead. I don't see anything on the product web site to indicate that it's capable of converting USB to firewire.

cenutrio · Oct 13, 2005, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by inkhead

First of all I don't get the people who want firewire. Why? It's not faster for this device, they are limited by the drive.

1. Not any faster with firewire
2. USB2 is better for power consumption
3. If your making a small device go with one unifed connector type USB2, which is better, because you can go Windows or Mac.
4. It will work with usb 1.1 but that is slow
5. if you only have usb 1 in your computer, you SHOULDn't be WASTING your money on a iPod, you should spend that $$$ towards a new computer
6. If you have a tower mac, with PCI slots you can add USB2 pci card for $10 (fry's electronics or elsewhere online)
7. Just stop complaining. Your made because your 3 year old $900 ibook can't work as fast with a $400 ipod. Upgrade your outdating %#(%#* computer hardware.

Ok, I'm not really in the mood for arguing much really. I do not think I was complaining either...

I was on the marker for a new 60 GB iPod. Just that. Apple dropping the FW support just forces me to get a new computer that is probably not needed yet. As a result, I'll just wait. My computers and iPod still get the job and fun done.

tritonus · Oct 13, 2005, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by cenutrio

Ok, I'm not really in the mood for arguing much really. I do not think I was complaining either...

I was on the marker for a new 60 GB iPod. Just that. Apple dropping the FW support just forces me to get a new computer that is probably not needed yet. As a result, I'll just wait. My computers and iPod still get the job and fun done.

Yes, same here. Either that ("wait") or buy the iPod now and snyc it with USB 1.1

until the first Intel PowerBooks are ready to buy.

mduell · Oct 13, 2005, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by inkhead

First of all I don't get the people who want firewire. Why? It's not faster for this device, they are limited by the drive.

1. Not any faster with firewire

In fact, it's slower, due to the chips that the iPod uses.

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 14, 2005, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Icruise

I think you're misunderstanding what that does. It is meant to save you from having to carry around the proprietary iPod cable. It allows you to plug in a standard USB or firewire cable instead. I don't see anything on the product web site to indicate that it's capable of converting USB to firewire.

The one your listing is the COMBO version, the one I'm talking about is the origional version, but from the feedback on the Apple Store and other sources, this will do what the people without USB 2.0 want to do over firewire. I'll fire off an e-mail to Sendstation about the capabilities of the little device. One guy below says it works with his 4g pod so I don't see why it won't work with the new 5g pods.

Here is the real Product Website Dr Bott is just reselling them as a distributor...

Link 1
Apple Store Link

"Screw USB. Jobs spent all those years selling us on FireWire. Now he's pushing USB 2.0 for the Windoze folks. Try unloading a lot of video with USB 2.0 and you'll know, for one of several reasons, why FW is the best joice."

"I'll keep the USB 2.0 cable and AC adaptor as a back up. Firewire is my preferred method of updating my 4G iPod and the PocketDock allows the choice to be able to do that."

SSharon · Oct 14, 2005, 03:23 AM

I have the firewire only sendstation pocketdock and I use it with my mini with a retractable firewire cable whenever I travel. Even if it doesn't work (in the way people here want it to) its still a great product since the combo one and the ones with line out are very useful. For the record I can't tell if there is a speed difference between my usb2 connection and firewire connection on either of my computers.

icruise · Oct 14, 2005, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by IFLY2HIGH

The one your listing is the COMBO version, the one I'm talking about is the origional version, but from the feedback on the Apple Store and other sources, this will do what the people without USB 2.0 want to do over firewire. I'll fire off an e-mail to Sendstation about the capabilities of the little device. One guy below says it works with his 4g pod so I don't see why it won't work with the new 5g pods.

But you seem to be overlooking the fact that the 4G iPods support both USB and Firewire. Of course it would work in that case.

wilsonng · Oct 14, 2005, 10:06 AM

was there ever such an adapter to allow Firewire to USB 2.0 connections? If it was possible, some genius would've done it already.

There's all sorts of adapters like connecting an xbox controller to a usb port among other things.

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 14, 2005, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Icruise

But you seem to be overlooking the fact that the 4G iPods support both USB and Firewire. Of course it would work in that case.

Then what about the 3g's, I know one version doesn't cause my dad's won't sync with the firewire dock cable, and they only list the nano as non syncing...

icruise · Oct 14, 2005, 12:47 PM

What do you mean? The 3Gs sync with both firewire and USB as well, but (assuming mine is representative) they won't charge via USB.

IFLY2HIGH · Oct 14, 2005, 12:57 PM

I'll have to ask dad when he comes home what cable didn't work for what. I thought it was the firewire one that came up and said not supported. Is it the case that all iPods up to this point have had firewire connectivity even the 4g ipod (I could of sworn somewhere they no longer did) and the new Nano and 5g pods are kicking off no more firewire and straight USB connectivity only?

icruise · Oct 14, 2005, 01:40 PM

All iPods until the shuffle and nano could use firewire, yes.

inkhead · Oct 14, 2005, 02:19 PM

Yes your computer is outdated. A smarter consumer wouldn't have bought a computer that he needs to last so long. Look if $3299 is a commit of 5 years to you then you probably shouldn't be spending that much money, without realizing that "hey, my computer won't work with the new stuff 2 years down the road, maybe given that $3299, is too much for you to buy a new computer every year or so, then you should have bought a more affordable machine"

I can afford the machines I want, but I still budget about $10,000k yearly for computer hardware. Why do I do this? Because then I can afford a new laptop once a year, and updated desktop machine.

If you can't afford something like this, then make a smaller budget maybe $1200 a year (so you get a 15' instead of a 17' powerbook that you really couldn't afford, I WON'T even get started on the idiots who buy computers on Apple loan." That's just stupid.

Only buy what you can afford, and if you were stupid enough to buy something that your going to be stuck with for 3 years (THIS IS FOREVER IN THE CYCLE OF COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY) then don't be annoying enough to complain when new stuff drops support for your outdated crapola...

Originally Posted by tritonus

Oh yeah, my original aluminum 17" PowerBook G4 is a bit more than 2 years old. What an old piece of crap, right? And it was just $3299, so a $299 iPod is really pushing the limits of this machine, I guess.