[ThinkInsane]

...But one Italian is going for the gold.

Did Jesus exist? Atheist takes on priest in court

ROME, Italy (Reuters) -- Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus evolution.

An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago.

The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary school in their teenage years.

The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in court later this month.

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona," or impersonation.

"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.

A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted, at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the case has enough merit to go forward.

"In my book, 'The Fable of Christ,' I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.

Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and baffled as to why Cascioli -- who, like him, came from the town of Bagnoregio -- singled him out in his crusade against the Church.

"We're both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together. Then he took a different path and we didn't see each other anymore," Righi said.

"Since I'm a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now suing me because I 'trick' the people."

Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of Jesus, including historical texts.

He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.

"Cascioli says he didn't exist. And I said that he did," he said. "The judge will decide if Christ exists or not."

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.

"It would take a miracle to win," he joked.

Good free publicity for his book I guess, but other than that this guy is an ass. In my ever humble opinion. Okay, let the flame fest begin

[Leia's Left Bun]

At least Jesus didn't spill hot coffee on himself.

[Railroader]

Canada has some too:
http://www.thewavemag.com/pagegen.ph...rticleid=21817

Robot-Man vs. Air Canada
Steven Mann, a professor from the University of Toronto, was detained after security discovered that his bodysuit, glasses, and headgear were all futuristic computerized devices. The self-proclaimed cyborg missed his flight and wasn’t able to get another one until two days later when he returned with a doctor’s note describing how his devices were advanced cyborg equipment and not the world’s most elaborate explosive jumpsuit. Air Canada strip-searched him anyway, and removed all of the devices even though many were attached to the non-computer parts of his flesh. This forced him to check into a hospital when he got back home, and now he’s suing the airline for one million of our human dollars.

Professor Mann has been attaching electronic things to himself for 20 years, and with his equipment he is constantly attached to the internet, can see behind himself with special cameras and claims to be able to touch objects from across the room when using certain “sixth sense” software. This only raises the question, how did a half-person with all these powers ever get into this situation? Wouldn’t the first thing you put on your robot suit be a defense mechanism to stop people from strip-searching you? At the very least, he could have just called the Justice League on his armpit phone. This case could go deeper than emotional and physical damages to reveal the horrors of a larger injustice. As Mann’s lawyer told reporters, “Basically, we are going to argue Professor Mann was discriminated against because he is a cyborg.” And cyborgs, I admit that our “Human Only” drinking fountains may seem racist, but let’s keep our water dispensers separate until you can keep your robot faces from shorting out and exploding every time they get wet.

Chance of Winning: Not so good.
Mann told reporters, “There are a lot of people out there who will read this and say ‘This doesn’t affect me, I’m not a cyborg.’” That’s absolutely correct, just like how every time someone sues a restaurant for making their coffee too hot, a lot of people might say, “This doesn’t affect me, I’m not an idiot.” The thing is, if I get a gun pulled on me every time security catches me with a hairbrush, a clockwork man wearing a suit from the year 3000 that can touch objects with its mind better have a search party inserted into his body cavity. Maybe Mann’s robot brain is too busy trying to discover the mystery of human love to think of this, but getting stripped naked and left in an airport for two days is airport security’s policy for everybody. That’s why they ask all travelers to arrive two days prior to departure wearing tear-away, non-hyper-intelligent clothing.

Was the airline right to force him to remove his Planet X bodysuit? Well, according to an airplane’s in-flight announcements, it only takes a cellphone or a Game Boy to disrupt sensitive control and communication devices, so I don’t want to imagine the damage you could do if your entire body was made out of cellphone and Game Boy parts. If the drink cart were to scrape against you wrong, that could send the signal to the plane to open all the windows and release poisonous spiders. And even at the risk of offending the proud cyborg people of Canada, we’re not going to just trust you that none of those 200 pounds of electronics are deadly lasers.

[Railroader]

Back on topic: Hasn't this been tried in a mock court case in the USA a few years ago?

[Kevin]

More atheist zealots trying to push their way on life onto people.

[demibob]

Originally Posted by Kevin

More atheist zealots trying to push their way on life onto people.

[Leia's Left Bun]

When was the last time Atheist has crusades?

[Dakar]

I dn't get what he's suing for. As in what he will earn if he wins.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

When was the last time Atheist has crusades?

you forgot about Stalin, Mao, and Castro already?

[TETENAL]

If it's against the law, it's against the law. There are countries with Christianity as the state religion and I didn't hear you complain about it, so you can't complaint when Italy wants to be an atheist country.

[demibob]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If it's against the law, it's against the law. There are countries with Christianity as the state religion and I didn't hear you complain about it, so you can't complaint when Italy wants to be an atheist country.

cant quite see Itally becoming an athiest country any time soon

[Dakar]

The irony would be amusing, given it would be housing the heart of Catholicism in its own heart.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

you forgot about Stalin, Mao, and Castro already?

Oh ya, exact same thing

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Oh ya, exact same thing

Let's see, both groups brutally exterminated millions of innocent indigenous people to further their philosophical beliefs.

Hmmm... Yeah, you're right, the atheists were worse.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Let's see, both groups brutally exterminated millions of innocent indigenous people to further their philosophical beliefs.

Hmmm... Yeah, you're right, the atheists were worse.

Americans (good hard working Christians) exterminated 20 million savages as they swept across N. America.

Savages not my term.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Americans (good hard working Christians) exterminated 20 million savages as they swept across N. America.

Savages not my term.

I agree, that was a horrible thing. Stalin and Mao, however, were worse.


<--- 1/8th Cherokee (Oklahoma side of the trail)

[olePigeon]

What a dumbass. Jesus was a real person. We have historical records that show his birth, order of execution, and death. He was very real.

What the athiest should be arguing is if Jesus was the son of God, not whether or not Jesus existed. Of course he existed!

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

What a dumbass. Jesus was a real person. We have historical records that show his birth, order of execution, and death. He was very real.

What the athiest should be arguing is if Jesus was the son of God, not whether or not Jesus existed. Of course he existed!

If that is the case why is there not one accurate description of how he looked? There is no hard evidence as to why he appears the way he does on religious artifacts. If anything he would have looked more black than white. They had a show about it on Discovery channel.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

What a dumbass. Jesus was a real person. We have historical records that show his birth, order of execution, and death. He was very real.

What the athiest should be arguing is if Jesus was the son of God, not whether or not Jesus existed. Of course he existed!

Also there is no proof of God.

I wouldn't call the gospel historical records.

But if you have a links to actual records could you post them?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

If anything he would have looked more black than white.

Or dare I say it........ looked more Arab than white

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Also there is no proof of God.

I wouldn't call the gospel historical records.

But if you have a links to actual records could you post them?

Not to mention every picture is some old guy with a big beard. Kinda like Santa.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Holy double gayness.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

What a dumbass. Jesus was a real person. We have historical records that show his birth, order of execution, and death. He was very real.

What the athiest should be arguing is if Jesus was the son of God, not whether or not Jesus existed. Of course he existed!

Yes, you're right, there are any non-canonical sources.

Tacitus:

"Nero fastened the guilt on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome." Annals 15:44

Josephus:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he wrought surprising feats. He was the Christ. When Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared, restored to life. And the tribe of Christians has not disappeared. Antiquities 18:63-64

The Talmud:

"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.'" vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, c. 281CE

Lucian of Samosata (2nd century Greek satirist):

"The Christians worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws." The Death of Peregrine, 11-13

etc. etc. etc. There are too many others to mention, and all are non-Christian writers.

[Shaddim]

oops

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

If that is the case why is there not one accurate description of how he looked? There is no hard evidence as to why he appears the way he does on religious artifacts. If anything he would have looked more black than white. They had a show about it on Discovery channel.

That's not true. I took a course on Jesus as a historical figure in college. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember details and sources, but there was a description written of him at the time by a nonreligious writer that stated he had hair and beard the color of 'new wine' and due the fact that this anomaly was slightly different than the semitic/arabic look native to area influenced people to follow him.

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

More atheist zealots trying to push their way on life onto people.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy

Says the guy with the Marry Christmas sig.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That's not true. I took a course on Jesus as a historical figure in college. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember details and sources, but there was a description written of him at the time by a nonreligious writer that stated he had hair and beard the color of 'new wine' and due the fact that this anomaly was slightly different than the semitic/arabic look native to area influenced people to follow him.

So why is he white as **** and dirty blond in all pics than?

Discovery channel did a big show about this. For some reason it is widely accepted he is a white dude when there is no evidence.

[ThinkInsane]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

So why is he white as **** and dirty blond in all pics than?

Discovery channel did a big show about this. For some reason it is widely accepted he is a white dude when there is no evidence.

Well, I think that was the point this greek (I think he was Greek, like I said, this is a class I took ten years ago) was trying to make. He might not have been snow white as is often depicted, but his appearance was outside of the norm, and he attracted attention because of it. It's not uncommon for people, especially over 2000 years time, to assume that a figure looked as they themselves do and represent him accordingly. Doesn't mean he didn't exist, just means that people want to think anyone of significance looked just like they did.

I didn't see the Discovery program, so I can't comment on what they said on the matter.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

That's not true. I took a course on Jesus as a historical figure in college. It was a long time ago, and I don't remember details and sources, but there was a description written of him at the time by a nonreligious writer that stated he had hair and beard the color of 'new wine' and due the fact that this anomaly was slightly different than the semitic/arabic look native to area influenced people to follow him.

I've read this as well.

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Says the guy with the Marry Christmas sig.

The fact you think this is pushing anything says alot.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by ThinkInsane

Well, I think that was the point this greek (I think he was Greek, like I said, this is a class I took ten years ago) was trying to make. He might not have been snow white as is often depicted, but his appearance was outside of the norm, and he attracted attention because of it. It's not uncommon for people, especially over 2000 years time, to assume that a figure looked as they themselves do and represent him accordingly. Doesn't mean he didn't exist, just means that people want to think anyone of significance looked just like they did.

I didn't see the Discovery program, so I can't comment on what they said on the matter.

I didn't say he didn't exist. I think he DID but the stories are totally embellished.

"There are no undisputed historical images of Jesus. There is no reliable evidence that a surviving portrait of him exists, or even ever existed. Nonetheless, countless illustrations of what Jesus may have looked like exist, the most common being Christian icons. Images of Jesus particularly flourished in Medieval art. Most surviving images of Jesus have in common a number of appearance traits which are now almost universally associated with Jesus despite lack of evidence for the accuracy of these depictions.
No detailed physical description of Jesus are contained in any of the canonical Gospels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_of_Jesus

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

So why is he white as **** and dirty blond in all pics than?

Discovery channel did a big show about this. For some reason it is widely accepted he is a white dude when there is no evidence.

He appears that way because the Church commissioned Michaelangelo to paint a picture of him in the Sistine Chapel. That is the origin of the "long blonde haired, blue-eyed, bearded" Jesus that is the primary image that Westerners have of him. The model that Michaelangelo used for that painting was a relative of his (either an uncle or a cousin). Most other European religious imagery used that painting as a basis for the "look" of Jesus. Now of course, simple reason and common sense ought to tell you that the real Jesus, given where he was from, would not have been a white man. But imagine the power derived from spreading a religion all over the world and having billions of people ... most of whom are people of color ... imagining that God Himself and His Son look like you! And then you will understand why when Europeans colonized the world the missionaries were one of the first ones off the boat. After all, if you control a man's thinking you have nothing to fear from his body. But I digress ...

One can quibble as to how much "color" the real Jesus had. To say that he looked "Arab" or "Semitic" doesn't really mean anything when it comes to that question because an "Arab" can have the palest of skin and the bluest of eyes ... or can be as dark as anyone from the heart of Africa ... or anywhere in between. In fact, most "Arabs" are somewhere in between from a color standpoint because they are essentially the result of centuries of intermingling between Asians and Africans. Arabs are considered to be "Semitic" which is an "Afro-Asiatic" language group. Having said all that, one can be sure that by today's standards the historical Jesus would certainly NOT want to make a wrong turn and walk into the middle of a Klan rally!

OAW

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by OAW

He appears that way because the Church commissioned Michaelangelo to paint a picture of him in the Sistine Chapel. That is the origin of the "long blonde haired, blue-eyed, bearded" OAW

Sounds like master race German.

Hell if I grew a beard and walked into church I'd be sure to get the part in the yearly play.

[Rolling Bones]

The Christian Jesus Is a fictional story.

There are several stories of a Jesus like character. Same story line.

Even one 1000 years before the Christian Jesus.

A Jesus did exist, many did, it was a common name. (Yeshuwah [sic]) Joshua.

[Leia's Left Bun]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

The Christian Jesus Is a fictional story.

There are several stories of a Jesus like character. Same story line.

Even one 1000 years before the Christian Jesus.

A Jesus did exist, many did, it was a common name. (Yeshuwah [sic]) Joshua.

So I guess it comes down to marketing then.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

So I guess it comes down to marketing then.

Changed lives and miracles are pretty good selling points.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

The Christian Jesus Is a fictional story.

You haven't been paying attention Rolling Bones. There are non-Biblical non-Christian accounts posted in this thread telling the same story.

There are several stories of a Jesus like character. Same story line.

Even one 1000 years before the Christian Jesus.

And 1000 years before that, People were waiting for Christian Jesus.

You DO realize that his coming was prophesied thousands of years before he actually showed up right?

I am betting you did not.

Just like you didn't read the thread at all.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Leia's Left Bun

Hell if I grew a beard and walked into church I'd be sure to get the part in the yearly play.

I seriously doubt it.

And the churches I've been to had no yearly play.

Canada must be different.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Kevin

More atheist zealots trying to push their way on life onto people.

Kinda like these people who refuse to recognize same sex marriages?

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by demibob

cant quite see Itally becoming an athiest country any time soon

As an Italian friend of mine told me one day, religion is more about superstition than faith in Italy these days. Just the fear that if they aren't religious something bad is going to happen to them.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Kinda like these people who refuse to recognize same sex marriages?

Actually that would be homosexual couples trying to push their lifestyle on something that is sacred.

But hey, I am all for homosexual couples getting equal rights. So you will get no arguments from me there.

Originally Posted by villalobos

As an Italian friend of mine told me one day, religion is more about superstition than faith in Italy these days. Just the fear that if they aren't religious something bad is going to happen to them.

Ah is your Italian friend religious?

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Actually that would be homosexual couples trying to push their lifestyle on something that is sacred.

Actually no, you are be pushing your way of life if you are not imposing that everybody does it the way you think it should be done. Big, big difference.
There is nothing sacred but the human dignity.

But hey, I am all for homosexual couples getting equal rights. So you will get no arguments from me there.

Ah is your Italian friend religious?

Yeah she is.

[villalobos]

oops

[villalobos]

damn.

[villalobos]

Wtf?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Actually no, you are be pushing your way of life if you are not imposing that everybody does it the way you think it should be done.

That was exactly my point.

Who is pushing what to be changed villa? It's not Christians.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Kevin

That was exactly my point.

Who is pushing what to be changed villa? It's not Christians.

Yeah they are pushing back on the rights of homosexuals to get married, the most fundamentalist amongst them anyway. They want to impose their view on them and prevent them on doing what they want to. They homosexual community does not require everybody to be homosexual to get married. just the opposite. THAT is pushing.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Yeah they are pushing back on the rights of homosexuals to get married, the most fundamentalist amongst them anyway.

By definition, they can't get married. They wanted equal RIGHTS. Then when they were told they were getting them, they started demanding that the definition of Marriage gets changed as well.

That isn't the Christians pushing anything on anyone.

Christians aren't trying to CHANGE or force people to adapt to any new ideal.

So no, you are wrong.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You haven't been paying attention Rolling Bones. There are non-Biblical non-Christian accounts posted in this thread telling the same story.


And 1000 years before that, People were waiting for Christian Jesus.

You DO realize that his coming was prophesied thousands of years before he actually showed up right?

I am betting you did not.

Just like you didn't read the thread at all.

You are very dense.

What I was saying...Jesus like characters existed before the so called Christian Jesus. Very similar biographies.

That's all I'll say about it cuz you'll just babble on cuz you're a know it all.

We used to slap kids like that around in grade school cuz they wanted attention so we gave it to them.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

You are very dense.

Tell me Rolling, why do you always come down on people for making personal attacks when you are the worst offender of this?

What I was saying...Jesus like characters existed before the so called Christian Jesus. Very similar biographies.

And I am saying, the character existed in idea thousands of years before he actually did.

That's all I'll say about it cuz you'll just babble on cuz you're a know it all.

Yes, you said it before. It's not about me knowing it all. I don't. It's about you not knowing what you are talking about.

We used to slap kids like that around in grade school cuz they wanted attention so we gave it to them.

Oh you are a real tough guy there Rolling.

Bragging about being a school bully on the internet has to be on the shallow end of the internet experience.