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Vaccines (again)
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olePigeon
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Aug 25, 2010, 05:26 PM
 
Thanks to Oprah, Larry King, Jenny McCarthy, and Jim Carry, lots of people got the completely stupid idea that vaccines caused autism, and therefore stopped vaccinating their children.

What was the result? Autism diagnosis are higher (obviously due to better techniques in diagnosis), but even worse, pertussis is now becoming an epidemic.

Fortunately the CDC is prepared to deal with this outbreak of stupidity. They've been given special permission to force parents to keep their unvaccinated children home from school, and keep them there until they're vaccinated. My hope is that they enact on this as soon as possible.

Morons, each every one of those parents who didn't vaccinate their children. They are endangering not just their own children's lives, but everyone else, especially babies that are too young for vaccination. They'd rather trust some washed up actress than over a hundred years of hard evidence and testing, and now people are paying for it with their lives.
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SpaceMonkey
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Aug 25, 2010, 05:34 PM
 
I don't approve of vaccinations because my chiropractor tells me that they cause bad voodoo.

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turtle777
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Aug 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
 
I blame Bush.

-t
     
Sage
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Aug 25, 2010, 06:05 PM
 
I really love this intro to P&T’s BS show on vaccines:

YouTube - Penn and Teller on Vaccinations (language NSFW)
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Aug 25, 2010, 06:24 PM
 
I love that show. They even run special episodes where they BS themselves because they got a particular part wrong, or needed to make clarifications. One episode in particular was on recycling. They said it was BS because it created more toxic wastes to treat the recycled products than it was to just make new ones. Which is true, but only when it comes to bleaching and other chemical treatments (such as bleached recycled paper used in copy machines.) The majority of recycled products go into items you don't care about cosmetically, so they remain largely untreated. You want to avoid treated recycled products. No one cares if a cardboard box brown.

But, yes, that was an awesome demonstration regarding vaccinations.
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Uncle Skeleton
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Aug 25, 2010, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
force parents to keep their unvaccinated children home from school
I assume this means public school(?), which probably doesn't have any effect on parents like Jim Carrey?
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Aug 25, 2010, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I assume this means public school(?), which probably doesn't have any effect on parents like Jim Carrey?
Yes, public schools.
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Doofy
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Aug 25, 2010, 06:47 PM
 
And if you vaccinate everyone with the same vaccine you get the bugs mutating into superbugs which you can't kill with anything.

Still waiting for the swine flu pandemic to kill me, BTW.
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Uncle Skeleton
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Aug 25, 2010, 07:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And if you vaccinate everyone with the same vaccine you get the bugs mutating into superbugs which you can't kill with anything.
No, you're thinking of antibiotics. The best part about vaccines is they depend on your immune system for the heavy lifting, and your immune system adapts alongside the bug.

Still waiting for the swine flu pandemic to kill me, BTW.
Ideally, no warnings would ever come to pass, because the warnings would be heeded and appropriate counter-measures would be taken.
     
ghporter
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Aug 25, 2010, 07:46 PM
 
Swine got pretty scary here last year, but because people who could do something constructive about the warnings took it seriously, all that happened here was a bunch of schools were closed for a few weeks-and they were sanitized, probably for the first time since they'd been built. THAT helps keep a nasty and unpleasant bug from getting the chance to become a killer. As Swine Flu was back in the 70's. Not a pandemic killer, but definitely a killer.

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Rev-O
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Aug 25, 2010, 09:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Autism diagnosis are higher (obviously due to better techniques in diagnosis)
It is not just that better techniques in diagnosis are leading to the rise in autism, it is also that the spectrum of autism has been broadened dramatically to include many previously non-autistic conditions. Cast a wider net, you get more fish so to speak.
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turtle777
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Aug 25, 2010, 09:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Swine got pretty scary here last year, but because people who could do something constructive about the warnings took it seriously, all that happened here was a bunch of schools were closed for a few weeks-and they were sanitized, probably for the first time since they'd been built. THAT helps keep a nasty and unpleasant bug from getting the chance to become a killer. As Swine Flu was back in the 70's. Not a pandemic killer, but definitely a killer.
I don't believe that all the hype did cause anything good.

The swine flu was a harmless compared to the regular seasonal flu.

Hundreds of thousands of people die from the flu every year. The swine flu was one of the more benign mutations.

-t
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Aug 25, 2010, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
It is not just that better techniques in diagnosis are leading to the rise in autism, it is also that the spectrum of autism has been broadened dramatically to include many previously non-autistic conditions. Cast a wider net, you get more fish so to speak.
That is also true. There's a brand new brain scan developed in Britain that has successfully diagnosed autism in adults 90% of the time. They're hoping to adapt the technology to scan children.

There have also been several important breakthroughs in regards to autism and its genetic (and most likely hereditary) link; in at least 25% of the cases, there's a specific gene mutation that is common in people with autism. In other studies, they've found duplicates of the same gene in multiple chromosomes. I'm pretty confident that nearly all the genes responsible for autism will be discovered within the next decade, and with some gene therapy, could even be cured.
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ghporter
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Aug 26, 2010, 06:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't believe that all the hype did cause anything good.

The swine flu was a harmless compared to the regular seasonal flu.

Hundreds of thousands of people die from the flu every year. The swine flu was one of the more benign mutations.

-t
Swine was harmless because it didn't gain any momentum, didn't get to infect a large number of particularly susceptible people, and didn't get a chance to mutate in that population. Seasonal flu is more deadly because no action is taken to prevent these things from happening, especially in regards to the particularly susceptible populations, so a number of older people and many with poor immune systems catch seasonal flu and die because of it.

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ghporter
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Aug 26, 2010, 06:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
That is also true. There's a brand new brain scan developed in Britain that has successfully diagnosed autism in adults 90% of the time. They're hoping to adapt the technology to scan children.

There have also been several important breakthroughs in regards to autism and its genetic (and most likely hereditary) link; in at least 25% of the cases, there's a specific gene mutation that is common in people with autism. In other studies, they've found duplicates of the same gene in multiple chromosomes. I'm pretty confident that nearly all the genes responsible for autism will be discovered within the next decade, and with some gene therapy, could even be cured.
We are also seeing specific patterns of behavior among people on the autism spectrum, allowing us to identify more people "on the fringes" of that spectrum. There's also a lot of argument about whether Asperger's Syndrome really is a form of autism or not, which muddies the waters. In my experience, I have seen a number of very functional people with a lot of the signs/symptoms of autism, often enough to meet the DSM diagnosis criteria. Except for the whole "functional" part, of course.

But it's important to note that autism is a descriptive diagnosis-there is so far no SINGLE dysfunction identified that causes the symptoms used for diagnosis, and there are a LOT of different dysfunctions that can do so. Before we come up with a tool to fix the problem, we need a specific problem to fix.

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Wiskedjak
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Aug 26, 2010, 08:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
And if you vaccinate everyone with the same vaccine you get the bugs mutating into superbugs which you can't kill with anything.

Still waiting for the swine flu pandemic to kill me, BTW.
They've moved on to the NDM-1 super-bug pandemic now.
     
Wiskedjak
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Aug 26, 2010, 08:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't believe that all the hype did cause anything good.

The swine flu was a harmless compared to the regular seasonal flu.

Hundreds of thousands of people die from the flu every year. The swine flu was one of the more benign mutations.

-t
Agreed. If anything, all the hype/crying wolf damaged the credibility of medical officials for when they *really* have a pandemic on their hands. It doesn't help, IMO, that the companies advising the WHO on the seriousness of H1N1 were apparently employed by pharmaceuticals who were manufacturing the vaccine.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 26, 2010, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
It is not just that better techniques in diagnosis are leading to the rise in autism, it is also that the spectrum of autism has been broadened dramatically to include many previously non-autistic conditions.
Such as anyone who has ever been vaccinated.
     
finboy
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Aug 26, 2010, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post


Morons, each every one of those parents who didn't vaccinate their children.
My pediatrician doesn't want us to vaccinate our second child, because our first child developed "regressive" autism after a round of vaccinations. He's in his 60s, so maybe he was around during that "100 years" of autism research.

[BTW, 100 years ago they though evil spirits caused autism, or something close, then it was "refrigerator mommas" and then it was genetics and THEN it was vaccines.]

Vaccines hurt some people. In my family (the reason for our pediatricians concern) several people have had quite severe reactions to vaccines as adults with healthy immune systems, including 18 months of chest-down paralysis and a lifetime of constant, debilitating pain from a single flu shot. To his credit, my father never missed a day of work after he learned to walk again, never complained, never sued anybody (who?). I've had severe reactions to vaccines, and my grandfather had reactions over time. I don't take vaccines anymore.

But when my son came along, the pediatrician (a different one) and ob/gyn (same one) both assured us that there was no evidence that autism was a problem from vaccines on a mass scale. And in fact they were right -- on average, vaccines do more good than harm. But it's like a Black Swan event, when it hurts it can sometimes really impact a child's immune system and/or ability to pass metals. Not every child, and some grow out of it, but just enough that we still have more severe cases to worry about.

If you look at studies of metal absorption by autistic children vs. everyone else, they have a higher rate of retention (or pass them more slowly). Not children as a whole, start with autistic children as a base group. If you chelate autistic children, they end up with profiles matching those of people who work in battery factories. In other words, it's probably NOT the mercury in the vaccines that's the problem (since it isn't there anymore) but metals processing as a whole.

I agree that it is WAY overdiagnosed. I can tell you why - it's funded, at least to some extent, where treatment for other things is not. In particular, the Early Childhood Intervention program from the feds has resulted in all kinds of early diagnoses of autism - and lots of those kids end up "growing out of it."

Nobody grows out of autism, but you can grow out of the physiological effects of metals toxicity. "Growing out of it" likely means that there was an overdiagnosis to obtain more federal funding. At least that's what I've seen personally.

The other part of the overdiagnosis phenom is that some parents expect their kids to be little chatterboxes, or to listen better, or whatever, so they throw them into therapy at a whim. Again, I've seen it many many times, up close and personal, in several different programs.

Anyhow, thanks for reading. Generalizations don't apply here -- every child, every case, is different. Those folks with a family history of vaccine reactions, even red skin, shouldn't vaccinate their children until they're old enough to handle it. Or until they're old enough that you can document behavioral changes easily.

Unfortunately, one size doesn't fit all. Jenny McCarthy has done a lot to raise awareness, but she's an amateur. If I had her budget to work with, I could "cure" a lot of kids.
     
finboy
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Aug 26, 2010, 11:48 AM
 
repost. Snip.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Aug 26, 2010, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
My pediatrician doesn't want us to vaccinate our second child, because our first child developed "regressive" autism after a round of vaccinations. He's in his 60s, so maybe he was around during that "100 years" of autism research.
Absolutely, complete, 100% bullsh*t. Your Pediatrician should be fired, and you should get a new doctor as quick as possible. I'm sorry your child acquired autism, but it was not the result of vaccinations. There is zero, zero evidence of any link between vaccines and autism. Zero. The single "study" that was produced was completely fabricated, the report rescinded, and the doctor barred from practicing medicine.

100% of children with autism also drank breast milk or baby formula. That means breast milk and baby formula causes autism, right? NO.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
[BTW, 100 years ago they though evil spirits caused autism, or something close, then it was "refrigerator mommas" and then it was genetics and THEN it was vaccines.]
No.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Vaccines hurt some people.
What people? Besides your anecdotal evidence.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
In my family (the reason for our pediatricians concern) several people have had quite severe reactions to vaccines as adults with healthy immune systems, including 18 months of chest-down paralysis and a lifetime of constant, debilitating pain from a single flu shot.
The only way I can imagine that happening is if you have an egg allergy and you got the flu shot developed in eggs. There is a non-egg version of the flu shot. Otherwise your symptoms were completely coincidental or nocebo.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
I've had severe reactions to vaccines, and my grandfather had reactions over time. I don't take vaccines anymore.
Nocebo.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
But when my son came along, the pediatrician (a different one) and ob/gyn (same one) both assured us that there was no evidence that autism was a problem from vaccines on a mass scale.
The entire history of vaccinations, millions upon millions of people being vaccinated, and not a single one developed autism as a result of vaccination.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Unfortunately, one size doesn't fit all. Jenny McCarthy has done a lot to raise awareness, but she's an amateur. If I had her budget to work with, I could "cure" a lot of kids.
Her and your opinion is based on a fabricated study. FAKE. The study has been rescinded and the doctor barred from practicing medicine. There is zero link between vaccinations and autism. Zero. Why do you perpetuate this idea?

Christ on a stick I hope you're just pulling my leg just to see how angry I'd get over this. If you are, you've succeeded.
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finboy
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Aug 26, 2010, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post

Christ on a stick I hope you're just pulling my leg just to see how angry I'd get over this. If you are, you've succeeded.
Nope, I don't give a sh*t what YOU think. You don't have to live with this everyday. I'm sorry that my apathy wasn't clearer the first time.

I took time to write not for you, but for all the OTHER folks who might read this and mistakenly think that your opinion mattered. It doesn't really. Until you spend the copious months reviewing ALL of the literature and applying it to a situation that you have to deal with daily, your f*cking indignation is misplaced.

UNLIKE YOU I'm not asking people to generalize. UNLIKE YOU I'm presenting an alternative hypothesis supported by primary evidence, collected by me. People can do whatever they like, but they obviously need to consider that one-size-does not fit all in this situation.

Oh, and the reason I came back today was for this. I guess other folks are having trouble with vaccines too.

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. Vaccines have COSTS as well as BENEFITS. I know that doesn't fit well into your narrow socialista brain (let's do what's best for EVERYBODY) but different people confront different circumstances. Some of us have to work with it daily.

Oh boy I wish I'd known this stuff a few years ago. Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference, who knows.

But whether or not YOU'RE angry, I don't care.
( Last edited by finboy; Aug 26, 2010 at 06:54 PM. )
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Aug 26, 2010, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Oh, and the reason I came back today was for this. I guess other folks are having trouble with vaccines too.
“There is no proof that the increase in narcolepsy would be linked with the vaccines. We do not suspect anything. This is mere speculation,” she said

Yes, that's a damning indictment of vaccines if I've ever heard one
     
vmarks
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Aug 26, 2010, 06:45 PM
 
There is such a thing as vaccine injury. I've been told so by several neurologists that see and treat the resulting injury.

There is no established link between autism and vaccine injury. That does not mean that vaccine injury ceases to exist. It just means that vaccines don't cause autism.

There is a federal fund to compensate those injured by vaccines. This is not something unknown and new, just because you've never heard of it and choose to deny it exists.

As for autism, parents, and the government action mentioned in the first post in this thread:

I'm okay with parents fearing for their children's developmental health. The parent has ultimate authority and responsibility, not the government or 'society.'

I'm similarly okay with the government requiring parents of un-vaccinated children to not send their children to public school. Government can decide who it wants to keep out of government schools.
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Wiskedjak
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Aug 26, 2010, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
There is no established link between autism and vaccine injury. That does not mean that vaccine injury ceases to exist. It just means that vaccines don't cause autism.
Actually, it doesn't mean that "vaccines don't cause autism". It means that there is no established link between autism and vaccine injury. I haven't been convinced that vaccines can cause autism, but let's try not to jump to absolutes from statements such as "no established link".
     
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Aug 26, 2010, 11:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Nope, I don't give a sh*t what YOU think. You don't have to live with this everyday. I'm sorry that my apathy wasn't clearer the first time. ...

But whether or not YOU'RE angry, I don't care.
I don't really give a sh*t what he says either when he talks like that.

He likes the smell of his own shit a little too much to make any convincing arguments.
     
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Aug 26, 2010, 11:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
I don't really give a sh*t what he says either when he talks like that.

He likes the smell of his own shit a little too much to make any convincing arguments.
I tend to agree with this, but in this case I have to take his side. There is the potential to reverse decades of progress fighting disease because of a bunch of brain-dead morons spreading lies, and the brain-dead morons who believe those lies.
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Aug 27, 2010, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
There is the potential to reverse decades of progress fighting disease because of a bunch of brain-dead morons spreading lies, and the brain-dead morons who believe those lies.
I agree. Unfortunately, I think that lies are being spread from multiple sides.
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 01:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I tend to agree with this, but in this case I have to take his side. There is the potential to reverse decades of progress fighting disease because of a bunch of brain-dead morons spreading lies, and the brain-dead morons who believe those lies.
I do side with you as well on the issue. I just find the presentation of argument to be extremely off-putting and with all the wrong justifications.

Ultimately, it is up to the parent to decide. Changing that IMO is strictly out of the question. I agree with the schools thing, but I also emphathize with finboy. He obviously is only after what is best for his child and no matter how much you mock, berate, insult, and generally rant against...the only way to change his perceptions are with reason and empathy. Finboy is entitled to his opinion no matter how moronic it seems to you. He doesn't have to justify his experiences, and IMO no one has the right to take his judgement based on those experiences away from him, particularly when it comes to his child.

That said, pigeons rant is not a tenable position should the crux of the argument be based on "what is the most logical for our society." Its the wrong example to set - and if he is even half the age I think he is, he knows this already.

Tolerance, patience, reason, and empathy. If anyone is to be persuaded it is only by these virtues. Anything else will only further entrench those with opposite viewpoints from yours - namely what just happened.
     
vmarks
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Aug 27, 2010, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Actually, it doesn't mean that "vaccines don't cause autism". It means that there is no established link between autism and vaccine injury. I haven't been convinced that vaccines can cause autism, but let's try not to jump to absolutes from statements such as "no established link".
I accept your correction.
If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.
     
olePigeon  (op)
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Aug 27, 2010, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Until you spend the copious months reviewing ALL of the literature and applying it to a situation that you have to deal with daily, your f*cking indignation is misplaced.
First of all, let me say I sympathize with your situation and having to take care of an autistic child. However, my anger is properly placed when you put my and everyone else's family at risk as a result of a decision based on ignorance and fear. I will be angry with someone who is essentially firing a gun into a crowd. I'm lucky enough not to get shot and killed, but I can't say the same for anyone else.

Furthermore, what literature are you talking about?

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
UNLIKE YOU I'm presenting an alternative hypothesis supported by primary evidence, collected by me.
What evidence? Please, enlighten me on what scientific evidence you've somehow uncovered that no other credible doctor in the entire world has come across in over 100 years of vaccinations. Is it the non-existant mercury in the vaccine? Maybe it's the aluminum that is 10x more concentrated in breast milk and baby formula than in the vaccine.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Oh, and the reason I came back today was for this. I guess other folks are having trouble with vaccines too.
The article concludes with, "There is no proof that the increase in narcolepsy would be linked with the vaccines. We do not suspect anything. This is mere speculation."

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Oh boy I wish I'd known this stuff a few years ago. Maybe it wouldn't have made any difference, who knows.
Your child would still have autism, Jenny McCarthy would be blaming tunafish sandwiches, then you'd claim your kid got it as a result of tunafish, and I'd still be calling you a moron.

Originally Posted by finboy View Post
But whether or not YOU'RE angry, I don't care.
Poliomyelitis is a hell of a disease.
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olePigeon  (op)
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Aug 27, 2010, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
...the only way to change his perceptions are with reason and empathy.
He doesn't want to listen to reason, and he gets all the empathy he wants from Jenny McCarthy.
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you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
He doesn't want to listen to reason, and he gets all the empathy he wants from Jenny McCarthy.
Out of one side of your mouth you claim to preach logic, reason, and compassion. The other is such hateful intolerance of people who do not agree with you that its almost scary. Any arguments you make - whether or not I agree with you or not - do more to hurt your general causes than help.

I just only hope that when you preach your compassionate ideas that you take steps to practice those ideals. From the way you ranted here, you only give the appearance of an angry partisan incapable of acknowledging the validity of anyone's argument but yours. In terms of a conversation, your input is utterly useless. If you want anyone to listen you must first be willing to do so yourself. With those four virtues I listed above you might actually be able to effect some positive change on other's outlooks. Until then you only succeed in closing others' minds - making it that much harder for those of us who can behave ourselves.
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
However, my anger is properly placed when you put my and everyone else's family at risk as a result of a decision based on ignorance and fear. I will be angry with someone who is essentially firing a gun into a crowd. I'm lucky enough not to get shot and killed, but I can't say the same for anyone else.
Right.

My anger is properly placed when the KNOWN dangers of vaccines are ignored and MY family is subjected to increased risk from being required to take them in order to receive government services (and to protect others from a small risk of a big event).

So to extend your analogy, you're requiring by law the shooting of a gun that is KNOWN to hurt people with my genetic makeup while leaving others around us untouched. How many people have to compose this group that will be harmed before it's not OK for you to shoot the gun?

Both of these represent troubling ethical dilemmas. I'll take my pediatrician's word for it and be safe. Also, according to him, LOTS of people choose to exempt their children for WHATEVER reason. Get angry with them, why not?

Do I understand how the process took place? Nope. Evidently nobody else does either.

Do I have a 1:1 correspondence between event and response, personally. Yep.

Has it happened 100% of the time it's been applied? Yep.

Am I going to risk my others childrens' long-term health to make sure that some random stranger doesn't get a runny nose for a couple of days (on average)? Nope.

Again, the tradeoff comes from the product of the likelihood of the event and the severity of the event. And there's a behavioral bias: the LAST time I innoculated a child, it screwed him up but good. Hence, behaviorally, I am biased against doing it another time or two.

As for polio:
Guillain-Barre is a troubling disease too, and it has been documented to result from flu vaccines, bacterial contamination or otherwise. My family has a history of GBS from vaccines, on both sides, and therefore should have stayed away from vaccines but doctors told us to ignore that. Doctors that must not have passed their statistics courses, but memorized every bone in their hands.

Now we know better, and we've given up drinking the Kool Aid, and we don't take vaccines anymore.
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
you put my and everyone else's family at risk
I'm confused. Wouldn't the only people at risk be other d-bags who choose not to get vaccinated?

What evidence?
He's talking about the one uncorroborated account he observed, where the same person was both vaccinated and later on got sick.

Maybe it's the aluminum that is 10x more concentrated in breast milk and baby formula than in the vaccine.
To be fair, the same chemical injected right into the bloodstream could have different effects than when ingested orally.
( Last edited by Uncle Skeleton; Aug 27, 2010 at 02:20 PM. )
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
They've moved on to the NDM-1 super-bug pandemic now.
I noticed how convenient it was that they announced this new super-bug the day after they declared the aporkalypse to be over. Interesting, no?
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I'm confused. Wouldn't the only people at risk be other *********s who choose not to get vaccinated?
Hey, don't let logic get in the way of politics.
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:46 PM
 
I'm not certain I understand why unvaccinated children wouldn't be allowed into school?
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:54 PM
 
Well, if I recall a vaccine's effect properly it increases your resistance to certain viruses, it's not a 100% immunity. Therefore the vaccinated are still put at risk from the unvaccinated.
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I'm not certain I understand why unvaccinated children wouldn't be allowed into school?
Kids are literally little walking germ factories. Relatively benign illnesses spread like wildfire in schools and day care. Any parent who's had to deal with their children coming down with colds and ear infections once they start being around other kids regularly can attest to that. The vaccinations against the common childhood diseases have essentially rendered such infections to be a thing of the past. And these are really serious illnesses that used to cause lots of kids to not live until their 5th birthday. Unvaccinated kids are not allowed into public schools in order to prevent such outbreaks from recurring.

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Aug 27, 2010, 05:38 PM
 
They call it herd immunity
     
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Aug 27, 2010, 05:50 PM
 
No vaccine is 100% effective. A small percentage of those vaccinated will still contract the disease if exposed to it. This means that the most important effect of vaccination is to reduce the number of cases of the illness in the community. Since un vaccinated children are more likely to contract the disease, not vaccinating YOUR child exposes other children to risk. Once the number of vaccinated children in a community drops below a certain level the number of children vaccinated but unprotected who become infected will rise to epidemic levels.

Vaccination is normally perceived as protecting individuals but is really a great example of altruistic behaviour.
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Aug 28, 2010, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
No vaccine is 100% effective. A small percentage of those vaccinated will still contract the disease if exposed to it.
Ok fair enough, but keep in mind it's a small percentage.

This means that the most important effect of vaccination is to reduce the number of cases of the illness in the community.
No, this means that a small effect of vaccination is to reduce the number of cases in the community. The majority of the effect is still to protect the individual(s) who receive the vaccination.

Once the number of vaccinated children in a community drops below a certain level the number of children vaccinated but unprotected who become infected will rise to epidemic levels.
No, I'm sorry but that is complete FUD. Even if the unvaccinated population was so high that every last vaccinated-unprotected person became infected (which wouldn't happen anyway), it is theoretically limited to a small percentage. That is not an epidemic.
     
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Aug 28, 2010, 07:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I'm confused. Wouldn't the only people at risk be other d-bags who choose not to get vaccinated?
A vaccination merely activates your immune system so you develop the appropriate antibodies to fight off a disease. Even if you're vaccinated against something such as pertussis, you can still contract it from someone else. The difference is that a vaccinated person will only experience mild symptoms (if any at all) versus a full blown, potentially deadly symptoms.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
He's talking about the one uncorroborated account he observed, where the same person was both vaccinated and later on got sick.
He claimed months and months of research. I'd like to know what research, besides the fabricated study that sparked all this crap in the first place.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
To be fair, the same chemical injected right into the bloodstream could have different effects than when ingested orally.
Tin is one of the more common heavy metals found in foods, including breast milk. I'm talking about orders of magnitude more concentrated in a single meal than what you get in a life time from vaccinations.

Likewise with mercury, which isn't even used anymore in vaccinations (not because it was unsafe.) You get more mercury in a single tunafish sandwich than you do from all the vaccinations you would ever take in your entire life.
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Aug 28, 2010, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
A vaccination merely activates your immune system so you develop the appropriate antibodies to fight off a disease. Even if you're vaccinated against something such as pertussis, you can still contract it from someone else. The difference is that a vaccinated person will only experience mild symptoms (if any at all) versus a full blown, potentially deadly symptoms.
So you're cursing someone out because they run a small risk of giving you "mild symptoms (if any at all)?" You're giving science and medicine a bad name, friend.


He claimed months and months of research.
No, he claimed months of looking for research (he didn't say whether he was looking for something to corroborate his hypothesis and found it or something to contradict his hypothesis and didn't find it). The research he claimed was done, he describes only as "collected by me." It could amount to 1 passing observation adding up to all of 1 minute, for all he stated.


I'm talking about orders of magnitude more concentrated in a single meal than what you get in a life time from vaccinations.
You're stubbornly ignoring the fact that delivery method makes a difference. You can absorb (or clear) drugs or toxicants by orders of magnitude more effectively or quickly when delivered by needles than by ingestion. Why do you think the vaccines are shots instead of pills in the first place?
     
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Aug 28, 2010, 11:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
No, he claimed months of looking for research (he didn't say whether he was looking for something to corroborate his hypothesis and found it or something to contradict his hypothesis and didn't find it). The research he claimed was done, he describes only as "collected by me." It could amount to 1 passing observation adding up to all of 1 minute, for all he stated.
Actually, it's probably more like years of looking at actual research output on autism, mental retardation, metal toxicity, behavioural therapy and other methods of medical intervention. The collection of data occurs daily, and the autism event happened once. The vaccine reactions have happened to my son, me, my father, my grandfather (paternal) and my grandmother (maternal). And her 2nd husband. Documented. With the exception of the last pair, we all lived in different places when it happened.

I have friends who had the same experience with their child (normal development, shots, abnormal development) but not 30 of them, so we can't have a study.

Also, it's probably unethical to have the children take shots AGAIN until we get the same reaction, but that's a time-tested experimental method too. Even if they volunteered, that just wouldn't be right.

I agree with the altruism post - that's probably right. I'm all about opening doors for people and putting grocery carts in the racks. This one is a little too far.
     
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Aug 28, 2010, 11:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
So you're cursing someone out because they run a small risk of giving you "mild symptoms (if any at all)?"
I didn't curse him out, I called him a moron once, and I got an infraction for it.

The risks to me are negligible, but not to infants too young to be vaccinated, the elderly, and not to people with weakened immune systems.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
It could amount to 1 passing observation adding up to all of 1 minute, for all he stated.
Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
You can absorb (or clear) drugs or toxicants by orders of magnitude more effectively or quickly when delivered by needles than by ingestion.
I'm talking about micrograms versus milligrams, or about 300 times the amount. Not even first pass metabolism is that effective. I'm also talking about a single meal. How often does an infant eat?

The point is, despite being reduced during ingestion, the infant is acquiring immeasurably more heavy metals just through normal eating habits than it did via all its injections.

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Why do you think the vaccines are shots instead of pills in the first place?
It's cheaper, easier, and more efficient. You can get one injection with 3 vaccines, versus taking 9 pills over a period of 2 weeks; pills that must remain refrigerated up until you take them, mind you. It is also a lot easier to give an infant a single shot than it is to get it to swallow 9 pills on regular basis.
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Aug 29, 2010, 04:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
No, I'm sorry but that is complete FUD. Even if the unvaccinated population was so high that every last vaccinated-unprotected person became infected (which wouldn't happen anyway), it is theoretically limited to a small percentage. That is not an epidemic.
Yes it is. Epidemics are not generally movie style decimations of whole populations. They are large numbers of small percentages. There are a LOT of people. A small percentage of a lot of people is an epidemic. You're thinking of a pandemic.
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Aug 29, 2010, 07:12 AM
 
Family win 18 year fight over MMR damage to son: �90,000 payout is first since concerns over vaccine surfaced | Mail Online

A mother whose son suffered severe brain damage after he was given the controversial MMR vaccine as a baby has been awarded £90,000 compensation.

The judgment is the first of its kind to be revealed since concerns were raised about the safety of the triple jab.

Robert Fletcher, 18, is unable to talk, stand unaided or feed himself.

He endures frequent epileptic fits and requires round-the-clock care from his parents Jackie and John, though he is not autistic.

He suffered the devastating effects after being given the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine when he was 13 months old.

The Department of Health had always denied that the jab was the cause of Robert’s disability.

But now, in a judgment which will give hope to hundreds of other parents whose children have been severely affected by routine vaccinations, a medical assessment panel consisting of two doctors and a barrister has concluded that MMR was to blame.

Robert’s mother Jackie said the money would help with his care, though she described the amount as ‘derisory’.

Her first application for compensation under the Government’s Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme was rejected in 1997 on the grounds that it was impossible to prove beyond reasonable doubt what had caused Robert’s illness.

But Mrs Fletcher appealed and in a ruling delivered last week, a new panel of experts came to a different conclusion.
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Aug 29, 2010, 09:46 AM
 
The one major thing left out of the article you cite, Doofy, is what it was about that vaccine that triggered the child's problem. Was he highly sensitive to mercury-and was the vaccine preserved with thimerosal? Was it the vaccine contents themselves and he was sensitive to their culture media? What was it?

Having a "this thus that" decision does nothing at all to find a REAL cause for this reaction-which is obviously extremely rare. What ABOUT the vaccine caused the reaction is a crucial question, and without the answer to that question, this is simply a governmental apology - "gee, sorry you had such expensive bad luck..."

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