[OverclockedHomoSapien]

I've found that file management in OS X still needs polishing. Opening two finders works ok, and the copy and paste functions are a nice feature (although I hate using them in Windows). But why doesn't Apple give us more options for moving files? And since the NeXT gurus have infiltrated the OS X development team, why don't they implement one of Nextstep's coolest features: the shelf?

I've never used Nextstep, but the concept of a shelf intrigues me, and it certainly sounds like a better file management feature than copy/paste. I dig a few things about the shelf:

1. It gives visual feedback about file movement, unlike copy/paste. Shelf contents could be represented by icons representing either a single file or folder, or a group of them (didn't nextstep do it with a hand of cards?).

2. It would be unobtrusive. One way I've thought of to do this would be that when files are selected and dragged, by placing the cursor over a "shelf" icon in the finder toolbar, a sheet would slide out of the bottom or side fo the finder window. This way the shelf only appears when needed, but when it does, there is lots of room for visual feedback on the status of it's contents. Of course, the sheet icon need not take up a whole "slot" in the toolbar, instead it could be a miniature icon on the left side of the toolbar (the non-customizable side).

3. Like spring-loaded folders, a shelf would have the benefit of allowing the user to burrow and browse through their file system, without opening too many windows. Unlike spring-loaded folders, a shelf would allow one to navigate their file system at their leisure, without concentrating on it like a Quake frag-fest.

4. The "shelf preferences" could include an option to preset which window is displayed after the files are removed from the shelf. The finder could either remain in its new location, or it could revert to the location that the files were moved from.

5. Two shelf icons could be included in the toolbar, one for moving, the other for copying. A sheet would extend for either of the icons.

I already sent this request to Apple via the OS X feedback page, but I wanted to find out what real OS X users thought of it. Should Apple add sheeted shelving to the finder?

BTW, I've been using 10.0.4, and I think it ROCKS...this is only intended as constructive criticism, not as a "OS X sucks because it doesn't have the OS 9 features that I must use to accomplish ANY WORK AT ALL ON A MAC--I've been betrayed by Apple and now I have to pay them again for more lies!!!" sort of post.

[Xeo]

Where would the files go while in the shelf? Where did they go in Nextstep?

I think they should get moved to something like /usr/local/shelf or something along those lines. Then, if you move something into the shelf, you can leave it there for as long as you want, and the shelf would just always display the contents of that directory. If you used the terminal to move something into /usr/local/shelf, then it would show up in the Finder's shelf.

I think it would be a useful feature. I could see myself using it.

[KidRed]

I dunno. I thought one of the coolest and most effecient features of 8-9 was spring loaded folders. I got so used to them, and would show everyone one when they came over. I design web sites and have content from various clients. I either ftp or grab it from the web, then have to put it in their folders in my designated client folder. Sometimes, I have cds of content that I have to sort out. I'm talking 4 cds of images. I also frequently download apps, files, mp3s, software, etc and they all have to be put somewhere. While a shelf would be better that what we have now it's more steps. You drag and drop onto a shelf, then navigate to your folder then drag and drop again. That's more work. I loved being able to drag and pop open like 10 windows, and if I made a mistake, I didn't drop, I just backed off a window and the last window closed.

Spring loaded folders were just simply a beautiful experience that I greatly miss in X, (among others-classic's lack of scroll wheel support, etc)


Oh yea- SOUND!!!!! Bring back sounds!!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>I loved being able to drag and pop open like 10 windows, and if I made a mistake, I didn't drop, I just backed off a window and the last window closed. </STRONG>

Rarely worked for me, since when you backed off, you had to make sure you'd have the cursor over the window you wanted to go back to.
More often than not, this window (and all others) would be covered, leaving me no choice but to move the mouse over the desktop: Hey, presto!, all windows close, start all over again. argh.

Hello,
i think the idea of a shelf is terrrific. but it has to be implamented in such a way that it doesn't gob up to much UI space. Aqua is allready space un-effecient as it is. We don't need a permanent extra panel taking up more space.

[ckohler]

Maybe it's just me.. but a shelf seems kinda redundant when we already have the Desktop. They both do basically the same thing.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Where would the files go while in the shelf?

I'm not sure where they went in Nextstep, but from what I remember they didn't "go" anywhere. They were merely represented on the shelf, and the actual files were only moved when the icons were removed from the shelf to their destination.

I think it would something like an aliase that is put in the shelf, stored as the location of the file, but not the file itself. That way if the process is interrupted, nothing is moved or lost.

But I don't mean that the shelf should be implemented in lieu of spring-loaded folders--only as an extra option. I say the more features the better! (as long as they are non-obtrusive and options allow one to use a certain set of tools). It would be great if Apple implemented both the shelf AND spring-loaded folders in OS X...that way everyone can use the file management tools that work best for them. I think that an OS with multiple tools for accomplishing specific tasks is a GOOD thing, it accomodates users with different styles of work, different methods of thinking. So people who think more pictorally can use GUI-based tools, while others can use tools like the copy/paste or whatnot.

What I really like about Mac OS is that over the years, many different tools accumulated for doing the same things. Just look at all the STUFF in OS 9: pop up folders, apple menu, control strip, launcher...a person could customize their file management/application and document launching to a very personal level. The OS felt like it was your own...unlike Windows which feels like there is always some "wizard" in control of your work. It seems liike every mac user I know uses different techniques for navigating the file structure and launching stuff. I think OS X is getting there, it's sort of between Mac OS and Windows, but I'm sure that within a year or two Apple will have OS X totally hopped-up and G'd-out. With Apple hireing all these Unix gurus to work on OS X, there must be all sorts of different ideas floating around Cupertino HQ.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Maybe it's just me.. but a shelf seems kinda redundant when we already have the Desktop. They both do basically the same thing.

That's true, but I often find the desktop inaccesable. If there are lots of windows open, it's difficult to move lots of files to the desktop, then back into the finder window.

A shelf would always be readily accesable from the finder window, no matter how many other windows were open. Plus, I think it might be faster than the desktop, since in a shelf, the file itself is not moved, only a representation of the file is put in the shelf.

[mugwump]

yeah, using the desktop as a shelf is fine as long as it's on the same volume, but if the item is in a different partition or disk then you have to wait as the item is copied to the desktop, and it may involve yet another copy sequence depending on where it goes in the finder.

Would it kill apple to implement a shelf?

[Gametes]

So I take it full-fledged Spring-loaded folders (new finder windows open at each new folder) isn't in 10.1; good. What about in column view...is it set so that dragging a file navigates the file heirarchy?
Or is (god forbid) copy/paste the only way to move files without using multiple finder windows?

[akebono]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>

That's true, but I often find the desktop inaccesable. If there are lots of windows open, it's difficult to move lots of files to the desktop, then back into the finder window.

A shelf would always be readily accesable from the finder window, no matter how many other windows were open. Plus, I think it might be faster than the desktop, since in a shelf, the file itself is not moved, only a representation of the file is put in the shelf.</STRONG>

Also, dragging 10+ files to the desktop makes a mess, especially if you use the desktop as temporary storage as I do. The shelf had the benefit of representing many files with one icon, at your fingertips. Like OcHS said, it looked like a hand holding a fanned out deck of cards. The end result is the same as a cut/paste, but sticks with the drag/drop metaphor, not introducing yet another poor one. One could imagine that there could be a "well" that you could place in the toolbar that would be a place for files. Don't want it? Don't use it. One window is a great idea, but moving files can be cumbersome that way.

Of course, apple could finally find a use for their "piles" patent in this... Dock, toolbar, desktop, no matter.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: akebono ]

[spockie]

Originally posted by Xeo:
<STRONG>Where would the files go while in the shelf? Where did they go in Nextstep?

I think they should get moved to something like /usr/local/shelf or something along those lines. Then, if you move something into the shelf, you can leave it there for as long as you want, and the shelf would just always display the contents of that directory. If you used the terminal to move something into /usr/local/shelf, then it would show up in the Finder's shelf.

I think it would be a useful feature. I could see myself using it.</STRONG>

In Nextstep shelfed files didn't got anywhere. The Shelf was only a symbolic place, just like the current toolbar. If you drag a folder to the toolbar, the folder stays on it's original location on the hard disk.

I am using Nextstep since 1995 and I can tell you that the Shelf is one of the best inventions in GUI design ever. I really don't know why Apple didn't include a Shelf in Mac OS X. I was really shocked after seeing Public Beta for the first time. Only buttons, no Shelf. After seeing 4K78 I thought that Apple finally managed to include a Shelf. Well almost.

Apples current toolbar is almost a Shelf. Under Nextstep the Shelf was located at the top of the Workspace Manager (now known as Finder). Putting files and folders there is quite similar to the current toolbar, you just had to drag the desired items to it.

The difference however is quite huge. With a Shelf you are able to drag things down. So e.g. wanting to move a document to another folder is quite simple. Drag the document to the Shelf, navigate to the desired folder and drag the document down to it's destination. The current toolbar can't do this. If you try to drag an item down, it vanishes. Dragging an item up to a folder on the toolbar, handles the job just like a real Shelf would do. So if you have folders you often put things into, you just leave them on the toolbar and drag things in it without having to change your current working directory.

Another thing the current toolbar can't do, like someone already pointed out, is to handle a multiple selection. Nextstep did this quite well with this hand-with-cards-icon.

Using the desktop as a Shelf replacement is no solution. At least I don't want to clutter the desktop with different items. Another point is that often certain parts of my desktop aren't instantly accessible, because they are covered by windows. The third point is that the desktop is no symbolic place, but a folder. So if you drag things there, they get moved. When doing this with different volumes you have to wait for the copy process to finish. I really prefer the Shelf-way, since the Shelf is only a symbolic place. The final point is that a multiple selection dropped to the desktop makes things worse. That's not how you really want to manage your files.

There is really no need for additional sheets and icons to handle Shelf functions. Everything would be so easy if Apple would just give the toolbar the ability to drag files from it down to places and if it would handle multiple selections. Is it really so hard to implement?

If you have questions about the Shelf, feel free to ask!

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: spockie ]

[KidRed]

o I take it full-fledged Spring-loaded folders (new finder windows open at each new folder) isn't in 10.1; good. What about in column view...is it set so that dragging a file navigates the file heirarchy?

Same as 10.0.4, you are only able to drop in on the folder.

Or is (god forbid) copy/paste the only way to move files without using multiple finder windows?

Yeppers

I already sent this request to Apple via the OS X feedback page, but I wanted to find out what real OS X users thought of it. Should Apple add sheeted shelving to the finder?

Sounds good, but then again I'm not an OS X user and this is pretty similar to an idea some of you have seen before. Feel free to mix and match.

[Mac The Fork]

Shall I try that again? Yes?

http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ulti...c&f=3&t=007567