[is not]

Volkswagen wants to become the automotive equivalent of Apple with its new car designs, according to the man behind the looks of the new Volkswagen CC.
Speaking at the CC’s launch in France, VW CC exterior design chief, Martin Kropp, said: “You have Apple and you have other products. This is what VW wants to be.”

Kropp said inspiration for the styling revisions to VW’s revised swoopy four-door came from Mont Blanc fountain pens, Apple products and designer watches.
“You enjoy looking at all these products,” he said. “You know there is the function and engineering behind the products, but you also enjoying looking at them. You want simple designs and this is what we’re trying to achieve.”
Kropp said that VW design was now at the stage where small technical improvements could help differentiate the German brand from its rivals. “We’re now looking at the fine details to really push ahead,” he said. “The head and tail lights of the new CC for instance now have lots of fine lines and intricate styling details.
“The CC is one of the last VWs to get the new corporate face, but everything has been improved in the quality of the look. We’ve taken inspiration from the Phaeton for it.”



Apple products are bright, desirable, work well and liked by professional computer bods as well as the general public. VW on the other hand...…

I think that Martin 'Krapp' has a little big ego. VW is the very antithesis of Apple. VW should aspire to be an automotive Dell, at best.

[turtle777]

Geez, way to dismiss VWs effort.

Remember, Apple once was total crap, too (in 1997).
Actually, Apple was in far worse shape than VW is today.
It's never too late to turn around, and VW has the right idea about what they want to achieve.

-t

[besson3c]

I agree with Turtle.

[turtle777]

Is it Valentine's Day already ?

-t

[ort888]

Wow. That looks just like a... car.

[jmiddel]

Why so down on VW? The original Beetle was as iconic a design as the Mac Plus, IMO. Or the first iMac. That said, the CC does not look original and, although the design is very well executed, the thing is nowhere near as minimalistically elegant as Apple products are. The grill is like a snarling face. The only function that form follows here is sales, given the deep seated association between driving and aggression. I saw a very sleek BMW the other day which had some of Apple's visual perfection.

Getting back to VW, they may be unreliable compared to Honda, say, but they have always been extremely safe. My best friend was driving a Rabbit in the 70s, when a garbage truck came out of a driveway right in front of him. The motor dropped in the crash, my friend and his wife had only minor injuries. He was told that if he had been in any other car, he'd be dead.

[Waragainstsleep]

Since when are VWs considered unreliable? German cars are very well built.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Is it Valentine's Day already ?

-t

Not until I get my $50 from you.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Since when are VWs considered unreliable? German cars are very well built.

At least in the US, VW went through a long spell of reliability problems around the late90's through the early-to-mid 2000's or so. Mostly electrical gremlins, but also dodgy automatic transmissions and just general "delicate" quality that comes from trying to do German over-engineering on a budget. That, and a lot of QC issues in their non-German factories like Brasil and Mexico.

[Spheric Harlot]

FWIW, I just saw the New New Beetle in person, and I must say:

Wow.

[besson3c]

What is cool about it?

[Spheric Harlot]

It was stunning enough to be a head turner through the glass doors of the department store entrance. There's something about the proportions, a sort of Beetle-meets-Porsche vibe. It looks like a Beetle, but where the New Beetle strayed too far into cutesy, this thing has style.

Brief impression, though. May not hold up to closer inspection.

[subego]

Bring back the Karmann Ghia.

[imitchellg5]

I think Audi is a very Apple-like corporation, especially in design aesthetic. Walter de Silva, Audi's chief of design is a self-admitted fan of Jony Ive.

(Full disclosure: I worked for Audi)

[subego]

I've thought the TT had the kind of shape an updated Karmann Ghia should have.

I'm a sucker for all hood and no ass.

[is not]

Sorry but Apple is a game changer. 
VW hasn't surprised the public since the first Golf, in 1974. And even that car wasn't much more than a better build copy of a Fiat 128 3p or a canned small audi? . 

To be something like Apple you have to be very creative. Apple isn't just pretty solid (and expensive) hardware, it's also a lot of "nice feeling" and cleverness in it. If you want to be Apple-ish you can't produce boring mainstream products, that sort of products that might make you the largest car company in the world.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by is not 

Sorry but Apple is a game changer. 
VW hasn't surprised the public since the first Golf, in 1974. And even that car wasn't much more than a better build copy of a Fiat 128 3p or a canned small audi? . 

To be something like Apple you have to be very creative. Apple isn't just pretty solid (and expensive) hardware, it's also a lot of "nice feeling" and cleverness in it. If you want to be Apple-ish you can't produce boring mainstream products, that sort of products that might make you the largest car company in the world.

This. As Citroen (repeatedly) discovered, innovation, style and creativity in the automotive industry is a one stop journey to bankruptcy land. Renault also rediscovered this but luckily had a whole government to bail them out.

Also Apples DNA is spread across the company into every employee, rammed in by a melomaniac boss who also happened to be a genius. VW, well not so much of any of that.

I think what VW mean (and probably can do) is apply a surface Apple like gloss to their products. Mind you generations of VW Passat models do rather speak against this too.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by is not 

We’ve taken inspiration from the Phaeton for it.”

end of story

[Spheric Harlot]

I think we're gonna see a lot more "We like to think of ourselves as the Apple of our industry" as Apple continues to dominate and others want to grab some of that aura for themselves.

[angelmb]

Walter de Silva, Audi's chief of design is a self-admitted fan of Jony Ive.

Not picking at you, but that is typical VW-Audi tiresome speech; all talk none sense.

Let me show you what comes next:

- He admittedly loves Dieter Rams work.
- He swears by Adolf Loos creed.
- He is a collector of William Morris writings on Design and Politics.

That would give him an astonishing likeness to most people in the field I know; even when actually, most haven't ever heard of Loos and Morris cause they are too young to know any better.

Don't get me wrong. An education isn't how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you do know and what you don't. VW knows nothing about taste or class, they lack the sophistication (jargon term meaning education, expertise) about it.

They are just the 'average' german car whereas Apple is incessantly months beyond the whole market's average. I bet computer/tech. industry months are worth car industry years.

Any german -or european since most if not all are just crazy for german cars– that can afford anything above VW, goes for it. Be it BMW or Mercedes-Benz. I don't even mention Audi which is just getting a greener grass on the same side of VW's fence.

German car sales prove this.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Not picking at you, but that is typical VW-Audi tiresome speech; all talk none sense.

Um, no, if you watch the documentary Objectified, he actually talks specifically about Jony Ive and his contributions to industrial design.

[OldManMac]

VW just happens to be one of the top three automakers in the world already, and may have recently passed Toyota for #2 spot. I don't think they're too concerned about one individual's beliefs here.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Um, no, if you watch the documentary Objectified, he actually talks specifically about Jony Ive and his contributions to industrial design.

Please re-read my post. It is clear to me you didn't understand it.

If there is anything top-notch related to VW, this is its advertising, not its industrial design. As is advertising the best thing VW has ever managed to produce. No VW hard-core fan can disrupt that. Mostly cause they might know a few things about their cars but don't know jack about Helmut Krone, George Lois and the likes.

I don't think they're too concerned about one individual's beliefs here.

I know, this is not twitter or the Facebook.

Too bad for VW's approach to become 'Apple' that the limit is not the sky, it is Audi. Which brings us to VW's perennial status as the average german car. Apple never settled for average.

Say you're german and you need a new car, you could choose the Opel Astra which is not a bad car at all, but by buying a new car you want a 'status upgrade' so you might get the Golf. Still, you want better, so you either get a BMW or a Mercedes-Benz. Simple as that.

You could extrapolate that to most, if not all, European countries or even America since the 'imported is better' mantra is so ingrained into people's minds that when they wake up all they can think about is "I wonder how I was able to live without an imported !!!"

That's what advertising is for.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

I think what VW mean (and probably can do) is apply a surface Apple like gloss to their products. Mind you generations of VW Passat models do rather speak against this too.

I don't think so. In recent years, they've put a lot of money into quality and engineering. The side mirrors on the Polo, one of their smallest cars (a class lower than the Golf/Rabbit) has mirrors that are engineered to to start vibrating up until 250 km/h (155 mph)! Total overkill for a car of this class.

In recent years, VW has contributed quite a few things, e. g. the DSG (twin-clutch transmissions), they were the first who invested towards downsizing with their 170 hp super- and turbocharged 1.4 l engine (now even BMW and Mercedes are heading in that direction). Plus, their TDI engines contributed to making the diesel engines fairly popular in Europe.

I'm not putting them and their work on a pedestal and think they're Apple's equal, but I think they can become a better company if they take Apple as a role model.

[is not]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

In recent years, VW has contributed quite a few things, e. g. the DSG (twin-clutch transmissions), they were the first who invested towards downsizing with their 170 hp super- and turbocharged 1.4 l engine (now even BMW and Mercedes are heading in that direction). Plus, their TDI engines contributed to making the diesel engines fairly popular in Europe.

Wrong! Already forgot the 210hp 1.5 engine (forfour brabus) from Smart waaaaaay long before the VW 1.4 engine was born? That was pioneering the downsizing.
So no 'first contribution' from VW.







VW was also late on Diesel downsizing. Renault has had the K9K (1.5 dCi) before than VW's TDI did. On the other hand, think about the small engines from the fortwo!!

[is not]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I think Audi is a very Apple-like corporation, especially in design aesthetic.

The only Apple-like in design is that some of their cars have hard disk inside.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Walter de Silva, Audi's chief of design is a self-admitted fan of Jony Ive.

I am a fan of Jony Eve, so what?

[is not]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

VW just happens to be one of the top three automakers in the world already, and may have recently passed Toyota for #2 spot. I don't think they're too concerned about one individual's beliefs here.

Nice to see this post, because VW is in fumes about GM being the number one,both saying that the other cheated with their numbers :roll eyes:

[angelmb]

Speaking at the CC’s launch in France, VW CC exterior design chief, Martin Kropp, said: “You have Apple and you have other products. This is what VW wants to be.”

Let's draw a fair comparison here.

The VW CC is Arial. Arial is one of the typefaces, behind comic sans, most likely to get you in trouble (figuratively speaking) with a font connoisseur. What makes it so repugnant is its obvious ripoff from, yet inferiority to, Helvetica.

Arial was created by Microsoft as a stand-in for Helvetica simply so it would not have to pay for the superior original. The ubiquity of Microsoft brilliant software has ensured that Arial is used more often as a generic sans-serif than that pinnacle of the modern sans-serif that is Helvetica.

There cannot be the slightest doubt what car is Helvetica. The CLS is Helvetica, or Akzidenz Grotesk for that matter.

I don't drive a Mercedes-Benz nor I work for them, BUT I am just not that blind to give credit where credit is NOT due.

Enjoy your Arial, Martin Kropp. I am sticking to Helvetica.

[angelmb]

their TDI engines contributed to making the diesel engines fairly popular in Europe.

As the 'de jure' Diesel-hater here at MacNN, I refrain myself from making any comment about it as it might not be 100% 'clean', pretty much like any Diesel out there.

[besson3c]

angelmb: which car is Zapf Dingbats?

I like that font.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

angelmb: which car is Zapf Dingbats?

I like that font.

Any modern Renault

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

angelmb: which car is Zapf Dingbats?

I like that font.

The attempt to copy some classic gadgetry, but with absolutely zero style?

Obviously, the PT Cruiser.

[besson3c]

How about "Wingdings"? I like that font too...

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Please re-read my post. It is clear to me you didn't understand it.

If there is anything top-notch related to VW, this is its advertising, not its industrial design. As is advertising the best thing VW has ever managed to produce. No VW hard-core fan can disrupt that. Mostly cause they might know a few things about their cars but don't know jack about Helmut Krone, George Lois and the likes.

I understand it. And I'm saying that if he went on a documentary that had a tiny budget to talk about Jony Ive, he's probably not just saying what he said to say it.

And I also didn't mention VW in my post at all; you're bringing VW into it. Yes, I know VW own Audi, but Audi is managed completely separately from VW. I don't see VW as Apple-like, but I do see Audi as very Apple-like, especially in overall design aesthetic.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Let's draw a fair comparison here.

That's not really fair at all. Kropp was saying that they want to be like Apple, not that they are like Apple. That tells me that VW don't see themselves currently as the Apple of the automotive industry, but it's a goal they'd like to achieve.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by is not 

Wrong! Already forgot the 210hp 1.5 engine (forfour brabus) from Smart waaaaaay long before the VW 1.4 engine was born? That was pioneering the downsizing.

You're mistaking a purpose-built engine by a tuner produced in minute quantities with a mass market product. The aim of the Brabus Smart was obviously not fuel economy.

Originally Posted by is not 

VW was also late on Diesel downsizing. Renault has had the K9K (1.5 dCi) before than VW's TDI did. On the other hand, think about the small engines from the fortwo!!

I wasn't talking about downsizing diesel engines, I'm talking about making diesel engines popular for the mass market (as opposed to taxi service and the special needs of people who drive a lot lot). I'm specifically thinking about the 90 hp 1.9 l TDI engine in the Golf 3 from the early/mid 90s. It was the first time you noticed diesel cars selling in the bread and butter market in large quantities (small to mid-sized cars for families). That was way earlier than the two engines you quote. I'm not saying VW hit every note (they were late to introduce common rail diesels, for instance), but that wasn't my argument.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

As the 'de jure' Diesel-hater here at MacNN, I refrain myself from making any comment about it as it might not be 100% 'clean', pretty much like any Diesel out there.

My vehicle of choice (a hard tail mountain bike) is much cleaner than any car with combustion engine. So what? Credit where credit is due. Diesels drive nicely in many situations (if you're going uphill or need to be nimble in city traffic) since they tend to be torqui. They consume less fuel and they often last longer than equivalent gas engines, because they have less movable parts. And the newer models have very low emissions due to modern catalyzers and other techniques. Diesels are the reason hybrid cars aren't that popular in Europe: there are diesels with the same fuel economy.

I do agree with you on VW's design of most cars: they're the Arial/Helvetica of our time. (I think the latter also lacks a strong character.) Ditto for Audis which all look the same to me.

[mattyb]

Diesels are VERY popular in Europe. The cars are more expensive than petrol ones in France but per litre diesel is cheaper. The fuel economy is usually better. Audi winning the LeMans 24hr with diesel cars helps as well.

Having driven a Blue Motion Golf over the Xmas holidays, I think that VW are onto a winner.

[angelmb]

VW lovers: say you are buying a new car, which engine would you get, and why?
- 1.2 TSI or 1.6 TDI
- 1.4 TSI or 2.0 TDI

LeMans, Dakar, DTM, WRC… all leftovers. F1 is where everyone wants to be in.

[angelmb]

Another question open to anyone, Cadillac is reentering the European market. Would you consider to buy its new small sedan, ATS, instead of the 3 Series.?

Please explain the reasons behind your choice.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Another question open to anyone, Cadillac is reentering the European market. Would you consider to buy its new small sedan, ATS, instead of the 3 Series.?

Please explain the reasons behind your choice.

In Germany, the 3 series isn't small. A smaller family car is like a Golf. I don't see the appeal of Cadillacs: I've seen one or two CTS (at least one of them was a CTS-V) and there are plenty of alternatives with many more dealerships and garages in your vicinity. I reckon this is a very big issue. The other problem is the lack of diesel engines: they're very popular, in Germany, the most popular engine in the BMW 3 series is the 2 liter diesel. This excludes the BLS from many car fleets of larger companies. Furthermore, there is no station wagon. So if you want a diesel or a station wagon or want garages in your vicinity, you're out of luck.

Even if these points don't matter, we have to see whether the quality of the interior has been upgraded.* This is more important for Germans than a big engine for faux leather seats.

Hence, I don't see the appeal. Plus, there is plenty of good competition, even if you are on a budget: Skoda's Octavia or Superb are built on top of the same platform as the Golf/Passat, using the same engines and parts.

* I have noticed that the build quality of the interior is not as high in cars for the US market. A colleague of mine bought an Audi A3 while she was living and working in the US. The interior (e. g. the leather) is definitely of lower quality compared to A3s sold here.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Another question open to anyone, Cadillac is reentering the European market. Would you consider to buy its new small sedan, ATS, instead of the 3 Series.?

Please explain the reasons behind your choice.

Not unless there is a massive price difference between the ATS and the base 3 series (which here is the 328i). Also, don't you guys get the CTS and the SRX there?

The ATS weighs a good amount more than the 328i, and not that weight is everything, but the BMW's well-known sharp steering and crisp handling is almost directly a result of the 3 series being significantly lighter than anything else in an exceedingly porky class.

[d4nth3m4n]

If anyone's doing a fullcourt press on styling, it's Hyundai/Kia. It's like we're living in some bizarro world where the cheapest cars are the some of the best looking.

[angelmb]

(…) Plus, there is plenty of good competition, even if you are on a budget: Skoda's Octavia or Superb are built on top of the same platform as the Golf/Passat, using the same engines and parts.

I don't think that's the market Cadillac has to go for. I think it is more the niche of people that buy Jags, Lexus, Infinity et cetera. I see an important number of X-Type on the road and even a bigger number of Lexus IS. Does anyone buy an Infinity? The ATS might grab a portion of that market.

Also, don't you guys get the CTS and the SRX there?

We used to get the BLS (Bit Like Saab), CTS, SRX and Escalade. I've seen three BLS, two CTS, one Escalade.
I've never seen a 2010 SRX though which is disgusting cause I've seen something like five damn Hummers.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

I don't think that's the market Cadillac has to go for. I think it is more the niche of people that buy Jags, Lexus, Infinity et cetera. I see an important number of X-Type on the road and even a bigger number of Lexus IS.

Yeah, but I don't think they can go for that market, I don't see the niche they fit in at least. The CTS-V was probably an exception, »an M3 for people who can't afford a real M3«. They're not upscale enough in terms of interior, engine options and such to beat BWM, Mercedes or Audi. (Or VW with its Phaeton, a hideous car, but in terms of quality and capability, I only heard great things about it.)

The reason why I was going with the »cheaper« angle was that this is the only way I can see them get a foothold in the market. But even there, the air is quite thin.

Also, people my age (late 20s, early 30s), even those with good jobs often tend not to get a car if they live in the city. I think the car market is on the decline, especially big cars. If I configure a proper BMW 3 series/C class/whatever, I easily have to drop down 1.5 yearly salaries before taxes -- and my salary isn't all that bad.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

I don't think that's the market Cadillac has to go for. I think it is more the niche of people that buy Jags, Lexus, Infinity et cetera.

I wouldn't categorize Jaguar with rebadged Toyota Camry.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I wouldn't categorize Jaguar with rebadged Toyota Camry.

The IS isn't a rebadged Camry It's completely different architecture (RWD, for one).

[angelmb]

I wouldn't categorize Jaguar with rebadged Toyota Camry.

Truth be told, I don't understand the appeal of the Lexus brand either.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Geez, way to dismiss VWs effort.

Remember, Apple once was total crap, too (in 1997).
Actually, Apple was in far worse shape than VW is today.

Ah... the myth continues. Apple had a PR problem. They did not have a financial or technological problem. Not the star performer they are today, but far from total crap.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Ah... the myth continues. Apple had a PR problem. They did not have a financial or technological problem. Not the star performer they are today, but far from total crap.

I disagree, OS <= 9 was total crap. By the time Win2000 came out it was providing Mac OS great competition, and WinXP even more so. Apple hardware was nothing special, the move to RISC never really paid off in dividends like the move to x86 did, IMO, and the company was rather lost.