[jorgem4]

Hi,

My GF is planning in purchusing a DV camara and as always I have to be involved in any computer technology purchuses. i.e. I am helping her to choose the right one.

Both of us are fans of canon products, they have been reliable and worked quite well on the field. She wants a DV camara just for home videos nothing profecional. I guess she and I will be doing some iMovie and iDVD (by the way are this apps easy to use? I have never opened them!)

So we are looking ate the canon ZR models specially the ZR85 cause of the SD card feature for taking digital pics in the card and not on the DV tape.

Any suggestions comments are very welcome since I don't know much about DV camaras or video editing.

[boardsurfer]

The ZR85 is a great camera. I just walked my Bro-in-law through buying this camera. The only difference between this one and the ZR90 is that the 90 comes with a Wide angle adapter. Doesnt really justify the $120 or so higher price. He bought at Best Buy and it came with a rebate for a free 64MB memory card and a $25 BB gift card.

The camera is small and very easy to use. The only thing that isnt so great is that I think the LCD is a little small, but I am used to my camera which has a 3 or 3.5 inch screen.

The camera didnt come with a Firewire cable for transfer to a computer (as far as I remember). And, it didnt even come with a tape! It does however, support direct play-through. For example, you can connect it to your VCR and Computer at the same time and digitize your VHS movies without recording to DV tape and then sending to computer. Saves you a step. OH, and a 20x (22x?) optical zoom is pretty freakin awesome.

Then menu system on that camera took me all of 10 seconds to figure out. It is very logical, and the thumb wheel you use to navigate is cool.

Is that enough?

[jorgem4]

boardsurfer,

Thanks for the small review....

NO firewire cable??? Hmmm I though it was included....yeah the no tape I know of...which is a pitty...

Oh! that thing you talked about hooking up the VCR to the camara and then to the computer to tranfer the VHS's to my HD I think is GREAT! Boy I know who will be using this camara de most

I think she will be going for that camara...thanks again

[Dimitri]

While on the subject, what about the ZR80? What's the main difference, just the memory card? I wouldn't plan on doing still shots anyway since I use my PS A80 for that. Been planning on getting a DV camcorder and with my wedding coming up this fall, I might want to get one this summer.

Thanks.

[boardsurfer]

ZR 80 Specs

ZR 85 Specs

Looks like zoom is smaller, no memory card slot, no remote control, maybe a few other minor things.

[Dimitri]

I don't really mind those differences, but I did notice that the ZR85 also specifies the format for digital video as AVI, yet there is no specification for ZR80. Does that mean it's not really digital? That would justify the ZR85's higher price then.

[supernature]

The AVI doesn't have anything to do with DV... They are both digital videos. They use the same CCD, so picture quality is the exact same. The AVI sounds like the camera has an additional format it uses as well, but I'm not sure in what way.

Canon's are the best to get, but only because I think they are one the cheapest ones.

Looks like all the ZR60 and up cameras uses the same size CCD and amount of pixels, so basically you'll get the same quality on all of them. So the choice is really:

Optical zoom, special effects, and ability to take either a standard 640x480 picture or higher.

You should be able to pick up a ZR90 for less then $500 over the internet.

The larger Canon Eluras on the other hand uses a slighter larger CCD (.2 instead of .167) and has more pixels (1,330,000 vs 680,000). So the picture quality should be much better on the Eluras. Canon Elura 60 can be bought for under $500 also, and it also takes pictures. The smaller Eluras have the same CCD as the ZR series.

The Elura 50 uses the same CCD as the ZR60 and up series.

The Optura uses either a 0.25 CCD w/ 1.3 million pixels or the higher end 0.29 CCD w/2.2 million pixels, ranging from $450 ~ $900.

[Dimitri]

Thanks.
I think the Elura60 looks best to me. I really don't need a lot of features, but the higher quality video would be preferred.

[Zoom]

I've got a ZR60 and love it. I did a LOT of reviewing on the web prior to committing and I have zero regrets.

At the time, the three models were 60/65/70. This is parallel to the 80/85/90 models out now. I chose the low end because 18x zoom is plenty and I have no use for a digital camera built in that takes low-res pictures. (I have a Canon S400 for stills, and it's awesome.)

That said, I don't use it much anymore. I've discovered that I'm just not a home movie taker. I don't like watching my life on an LCD, and since I'm divorced, I'm the only one to take the movies.

Anyway, I highly recommend the Canon ZR series.

By the way, I did most of my comparison research at dvspot.

[swissmann]

I am a professional videographer and shoot with Canon's professional line. I got my parents the ZR10 years ago. I categorize DV cameras into 3 basic categories (my research is a bit old - haven't bought one in a while). 1 - Basic DV 2 - Basic DV with more bells and whistles 3 - Pro DV. It sound like you should be buying the basic DV category. They are the cheapest. Forget the still picture capability. It doesn't matter if it goes on a card or on a tape - the resolution is garbage and unusable for anything other than email attachments to kind of see what is going on. Some of the more expensive DV (falling in my category 2) include a 2 or 3 Megapixel still shot capability. These will do well but are significantly more expensive. If you are editing with iMovie and iDVD (both very easy to use by the way) you won't need any special effects on the camera because the computer will do it all, besides if you apply an effect while filming and you don't like it you are stuck with it. Optical zoom is important, digital zoom is worthless. The higher end models have 3 chips and are labeled as 3CCD. Typically the video quality is much better - but much more expensive too.

Bottom line recommendations are get the cheapest MiniDV camera you can find with name brand you trust. Place importance on how small it is and how easy it is to use and optical zoom. Do all the fancy stuff on your computer. Buy a digital camera for the still shots.

Hope this helps.

[DewD]

My friend's lousy experience with Canon warranty work and customer service last year led him to conclude he would never recommend anyone buy a Canon consumer DV camera ( a ZR-60 I believe) , if service after the sale was a consideration.
The tape jammed in the camera about 2 months after he bought it ; he sent it to Canon under warranty. They wrote back the camera had " obviously" gotten wet ( it had not) , and disallowed the warranty. They wanted more to repair the camera than it cost new (!) and a 4-6 weeks turnaround.

Selling price and specifications are not everything....

[Zoom]

Originally posted by DewD:
My friend's lousy experience with Canon warranty work and customer service last year led him to conclude he would never recommend anyone buy a Canon consumer DV camera ( a ZR-60 I believe) , if service after the sale was a consideration.
The tape jammed in the camera about 2 months after he bought it ; he sent it to Canon under warranty. They wrote back the camera had " obviously" gotten wet ( it had not) , and disallowed the warranty. They wanted more to repair the camera than it cost new (!) and a 4-6 weeks turnaround.

I have a ZR60 and I have 3 good friends with ZR60's - no problems. None of us have had to get our cameras repaired, so I can't speak for their customer service.

Honestly, with electronics anymore, it's a crapshoot. Most stuff is designed to be basically disposable. Technology changes so fast nowadays and there's so much market pressure to drop prices that things are geared to be used for a couple years and then replaced with a newer, smaller, faster, lighter, cheaper, spiffier model. These things are almost always cheaper to replace than to repair, even for the manufacturer. Warrantees now are geared towards manufacturing glitches that will cause a unit to fail out of the box or shortly thereafter (90 days, typically). Service technicians are expensive. So what do they do? They farm out the repair and customer service stuff to some third party company and reward them for keeping repair/replacement costs to a minimum.

I have no idea how that little speech helps you decide what camcorder to buy. I suppose I'll just say that for $400 you can get a nice MiniDV unit from Canon and expect that it will serve you well for 2-4 years, but there's always a chance (with any manufacturer) that it will die before then and that you'll get some prick on the other end who will deny you your warrantee.

[jorgem4]

Thank you every body dor the reviews and advise.

Today my GF and me went to look at the camaras at Best Buy and the Apple store. (Just a note BB people don't know sh*t about the products thay sell...the apple store people were far more helpful.)

We are still stuck between the 80 and the 85, reason being:

- 85 has video in and out -> I can pass my VHS's onto my computer and do some other stuff

- 85 Has an easier way to manage the still pics (I think) tranfering them via USB (I think) Does anyone know if the 'image capture' would reconzed the camara and import the stills in this maner?

- 85 would the 18x vs. 20x zoom be a noticeable difference? I don't think I would miss the 2x zoom difference.

- 80 Far cheaper!

Last question...does the brand on the Mini DV tapes matter? Any know knows of a place with good deal of these Mini DV tapes?

Any other kind of advice would be greatly apreciated... this is kind of a big buy for us.

Thaks.

[scottiB]

I would suggest getting last year's Canon ZR-70 (the top ZR model at the time). BH Photo has new close-out ones for $385. It has 22x optical zoom and a microphone-in port. Also it has a camera hotshoe, so you can use this handy, cheap video light if you want to. As well, add-on wide lens is good for capturing family group shots--it gives that extra wideness that always seems to be needed.

My father has a ZR-70 and I used it to shoot a friend's wedding (I'm an amateur). I really was impressed with it (my camera is an older ZR-10).

For MiniDV tapes, Costco is a good place: 6 for $19-$20, IIRC.

[scottiB]

I'm feeling chatty, so here's other things I've learned:

• Buy an extra battery--preferably one with longer life. The BP-522 is Canon's heavier-duty version, look for one with at least 2000mAh in its specs.
  
• Buy a tripod. It need not be a videography one (unless this grows beyond a hobby), a $40 still camera one will do. A monopod is good, but ancillary, if you're roaming around quite a bit (at a zoo, etc.).
  
• Consider a tape rewinder. Consumer DV cameras can't take constant fast-fowarding, stopping, rewinding, stopping, playing. I'm not saying you can't do it, but don't do it constantly. The take-up motor (or whatever it's called) can give out over the course of 3 years. To avoid continuous stress, rewind to the tape's beginning, then play it (or fast-forward it ONE WAY). Progress through till tape's end, then rewind it all the way to the beginning.
  
  The best way (if you have drive space) is to import the entire section of tape (or entire tape) into the Mac, then scrub around, playing back favorite parts over and over in iMovie (which is much quicker, anyway). I'm not suggesting being a totalitarian about not stopping, rewinding, etc. (and it's tough to do if you want to see footage and your Mac's not around--like on vacation or something), but try to avoid it, if you can.
  
  Once my camera ate a tape (of course of something very important--never to occur again), and I had to splice it together (not fun). My take-up real stopped taking up, so I had a mass of angel hair pasta spitting everywhere. I shipped it to Canon's service department (it must be sent in--no local repair), and it was repaired, cleaned, and a new port cover was installed (mine has a slight tear) for $155. Turnaround was three weeks, but it would've been quicker had I not had to snail-mail authorization and payment. From now on, I use a rewinder.
  
• Always shoot in 16-bit audio format. 12-bit leaves a section free to provide voiceover using the camera. Since you'll be using iMovie (or FCE), the higher quality is better.
  
• NEVER, EVER shoot in EP mode (or 90 minute mode, whatever it's called). It degrades quality and, well just don't.
  
• You can reuse your tapes, but I wouldn't do it more than once--maybe twice.
  
• ALWAYS label your tapes: you should see my drawer of 100+ tapes, that I've no clue what's on them

I can't recommend enough David Pogue's Missing Manual for iMovie and iDVD. My 73 year-old father bought it, and he's been shooting DV and creating DVDs at a pretty prolific pace (it's good to be retired).

[boardsurfer]

Originally posted by scottiB:
For MiniDV tapes, Costco is a good place: 6 for $19-$20, IIRC.

heh, when my brother and I were getting zr85, the rep (at BestBuy)wanted to show us some tapes to buy. Before he even got to the tapes, I had mentioned Costco to my bro. The rep stopped dead in his tracks. He said, We cant hold a candle to them, I wont even bother showing you.

Costco is where I get all my tapes. Cant be beat. Brand doesnt matter too much I suppose.

ALWAYS label your tapes: you should see my drawer of 100+ tapes, that I've no clue what's on them

/hangs head in shame.
I'm with you on that one.