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Cadaver · May 27, 2004, 08:31 PM

In stock at OWC.

ADC & DVI-I video outs, 256MB VRAM, 8x AGP Pro, G5 only. Full retail driver support (including OpenGL overrides and VersaVision monitor rotation). Supports the Apple Cinema HD display (1920x1200).

A little late to be sure (was due end of February), and not exactly cheap ($379), and perhaps not exactly the best bargain seeing as how the new ATI/nvidia chips are on the horizon, but at least its no longer vaporware.

Lateralus · May 27, 2004, 08:40 PM

...Finally.

Leonard · May 28, 2004, 10:50 AM

That's wierd... it's not listed in ATI's price list or ATI's online store on ATI's site. At least I can't find it there.

Cadaver · May 28, 2004, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Leonard:
That's wierd... it's not listed in ATI's price list or ATI's online store on ATI's site. At least I can't find it there.

True, but OWC is a respected company, and mine is showing as packed and shipped

I'll let everyone know how it goes when it arrives on Monday (or possibly Tuesday) & is installed in my DP2.0.

Dimitri · May 28, 2004, 11:57 AM

That's wierd... it's not listed in ATI's price list or ATI's online store on ATI's site. At least I can't find it there.

I see it on ATI's site. No option to buy there yet, though.

GoGoReggieXPowars · May 28, 2004, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
I'll let everyone know how it goes when it arrives on Monday (or possibly Tuesday) & is installed in my DP2.0.

Sweet! I'd love to see that thing in a DP2.0 with Maya 6 and see how the permormance is with solid shading, X-Ray, and visible wireframe options turned on.

OzarkMtn · May 28, 2004, 03:43 PM

OWC is out of stock already. 7 - 10 days before back in stock supposedly.

southtdi · May 28, 2004, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
In stock at OWC.

A little late to be sure (was due end of February), and not exactly cheap ($379), and perhaps not exactly the best bargain seeing as how the new ATI/nvidia chips are on the horizon, but at least its no longer vaporware.

I'll just wait for the news cards and the price of this one goes down due to them and get it then. Been waiting for the card and expected the price but since the new ones will be out in another month or so the price will drop pretty fast right after that.

ChipB4PCs · May 28, 2004, 04:57 PM

MacMall also lists stock -- shipping is direct from Ingram's warehouse. The price is $20.00 more than OWC. Also note the detailed description at MacMall is fowled up but I confirmed that is in fact SE model and just the plain Pro. One major point -- you dont need to run an external power (Molex) connector as you have to with the plain Pro. ATI's site also not up to date but if you check out the galley photos of the two cards Pro SE & Pro you'll see what I mean.

striker100 · May 28, 2004, 05:24 PM

here ya go:
http://www.provantage.com/buy-7atit4...7-shopping.htm

rocky2 · May 28, 2004, 07:02 PM

Now that this card is finally out, could one of you purchasers download the ROM from the card and post it here so that those of us foolish (and cheap) enough to try can risk flashing the PC version, which can be bought here for under 10,000 yen in the darker backstreets of Akihabara? It would also help if you could post the part number for the ROM chip on the card to see if they are the same size.

Cadaver · May 28, 2004, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by southtdi:
I'll just wait for the news cards and the price of this one goes down due to them and get it then. Been waiting for the card and expected the price but since the new ones will be out in another month or so the price will drop pretty fast right after that.

What makes you think the X800 is coming to the Mac anytime soon? Look how long it took ATI to bring this card to market...

denaps · May 29, 2004, 01:32 AM

we'll be lucky if any card with the x800 spec or nv40 chipset comes to macs within the year. we always get screwed! but then again, why would we need those cards since the only games that will use them won't be here for a year either!

ReggieX · May 29, 2004, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by southtdi:
I'll just wait for the news cards and the price of this one goes down due to them and get it then. Been waiting for the card and expected the price but since the new ones will be out in another month or so the price will drop pretty fast right after that.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

ATI NEVER drops the price on their Mac cards, their 8500 stayed close to the MSRP for the entire time it was being produced. The Radeon 7000 PCI can be had for PCs for $45 while the Mac is still close to $130 (though a quick look at OWC's web site say there's a 128M Mac version of the 7000 coming out in June, whoop de doo!)

It took them a long time for this to come out, and even if / when the x800 series hits the Mac, the old ones will not come down in price.

Originally posted by rocky2:
Now that this card is finally out, could one of you purchasers download the ROM from the card and post it here so that those of us foolish (and cheap) enough to try can risk flashing the PC version, which can be bought here for under 10,000 yen in the darker backstreets of Akihabara? It would also help if you could post the part number for the ROM chip on the card to see if they are the same size.

You realize that's asking for warez, right?

Drakino · May 29, 2004, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by rocky2:
Now that this card is finally out, could one of you purchasers download the ROM from the card and post it here so that those of us foolish (and cheap) enough to try can risk flashing the PC version, which can be bought here for under 10,000 yen in the darker backstreets of Akihabara? It would also help if you could post the part number for the ROM chip on the card to see if they are the same size.

Wouldn't work. That card is an AGP Pro card, one built to pull power only from the AGP slot. If you were to flash the ROM onto a PC version that has a molex power input, the card would loose it's ability to sense if that plug was powered. It would also believe both video out ports were digital variants (SVI and ADC) instead of one digital and one analog (DVI and VGA).

Cadaver · May 30, 2004, 12:31 AM

Not sure how many OWC had ordered, but it seems their initial stock is sold out. They're now quoting 5 days.

VukOnCrack · May 30, 2004, 09:27 AM

All this excitement over the ATI card. Everything available for mac is little other than a toy compared to these cards:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/quadrofx_family.html

I use the 3000G extensively in linux and XP. The performance is simply amazing (as it should be for close to three grand). The G5 is an incredible product which lacks the option of a video card which complements its performance.

If you're serious about rendering on the Mac, contact Apple and request that that they support the Quadro series. If they get enough requests that will appease the marketing/money folks, they might actually do it (been in talks with them about this for almost a year).

Dr Reducto · May 30, 2004, 12:03 PM

Yeah, but the QuadroFX is useless for games.....

That's the whole point of getting a 9800Pro. 3D Performance in games.

VukOnCrack · May 30, 2004, 12:07 PM

How is it useless for games? We do extrmeley intense realtime 3D rendering with them (interactive VR, etc.): it's gl acceleration, volume rendering, etc. is only surpassed by SGI infinite reality graphics... plus you don't have to drop six figures plus on a the system.

Sorry to say this... but there's more to life than games. Especially if the Mac is your preferred computer. The grass is a bit greener on the other side when it comes to games.

ReggieX · May 30, 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by VukOnCrack:
All this excitement over the ATI card. Everything available for mac is little other than a toy compared to these cards:

http://www.nvidia.com/page/quadrofx_family.html

I use the 3000G extensively in linux and XP. The performance is simply amazing (as it should be for close to three grand). The G5 is an incredible product which lacks the option of a video card which complements its performance.

There's also the ATI FireGL lines, which are not available for the Mac either. It's not solely up to Apple to support the cards, it's up to ATI and Nvidia to make compatible firmware and drivers first.

VukOnCrack · May 30, 2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by ReggieX:
There's also the ATI FireGL lines, which are not available for the Mac either. It's not solely up to Apple to support the cards, it's up to ATI and Nvidia to make compatible firmware and drivers first.

Actually, you're wrong. Nvidia is a purely OEM operation. Apple simply licenses their chipsets and then constructs their own logic boards, etc. and writes their own drivers. I've been talking with Apple engineers for the better part of a year about this so I now how it works in house. On the PC side, PNY is the big nvidia distributor and they write their own drivers for the Nvidia cards. ATI, however, does the whole shebang with Apple providing development support. I would not mind the FireGl being available, but it doesn't pose the same benefits as the Quadro series: If Apple were to support the Quadro series with a unified driver architecture as is used on other platforms, then there would be many more options for Mac users. Specifically in my case I need the Genlock features of the 3000G. The only other card that offers this is the 3dlabs Wildcat 7210 which is not as robust as the Nvidia and again not available on Mac.

ReggieX · May 30, 2004, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by VukOnCrack:
Actually, you're wrong. Nvidia is a purely OEM operation. Apple simply licenses their chipsets and then constructs their own logic boards, etc. and writes their own drivers. I've been talking with Apple engineers for the better part of a year about this so I now how it works in house.

Interesting, thanks for the info!

angelmb · May 30, 2004, 05:01 PM

What about that 'special' 3D card maker Apple bought some time ago?, is Apple going to provide its very own 3D graphic card soon?, I think so.

VukOnCrack · May 30, 2004, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by angelmb:
What about that 'special' 3D card maker Apple bought some time ago?, is Apple going to provide its very own 3D graphic card soon?, I think so.

Oooh.. I don't remember seeing this one (I only recall them purchasing sw companies). Do you have any links?

SamuraiDL · May 30, 2004, 06:08 PM

its not listed as an option on apples site...

exa · May 31, 2004, 07:02 PM

Apple bought Raycer nearly 5 years ago, I wonder if they just dropped any further development on that.

groucho · Jun 1, 2004, 05:57 AM

The idea of the digital hub is seriously crippled until Apple does its bit for the HTPC, which at the moment is far from par compared to Wintel. This is where the Nvidea chips come in as being vastly better than the ATI counterparts. I have the DualG5 BTO with the ATI Radeon 9800 and apart from SW and graphics card I have all the horse-power I could dream of, still no good.

Leonard · Jun 1, 2004, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by exa:
Apple bought Raycer nearly 5 years ago, I wonder if they just dropped any further development on that.

Maybe Apple uses those people to develop the Nvidia cards and/or Nvidia drivers they put in the PowerMacs.

GoGoReggieXPowars · Jun 1, 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by groucho:
The idea of the digital hub is seriously crippled until Apple does its bit for the HTPC, which at the moment is far from par compared to Wintel.

Get a Miglia Alchemy card

angelmb · Jun 1, 2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by exa:
Apple bought Raycer nearly 5 years ago...

Exactly, Apple needs to have their very own 3D GPU a.s.a.p., nowadays pc�s gpu are seriously better

Cadaver · Jun 1, 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by angelmb:
Exactly, Apple needs to have their very own 3D GPU a.s.a.p., nowadays pc�s gpu are seriously better

There's no way Apple could invest the time/dollars to develop their own graphics processor.
Wintel machines are simply using GPUs developed by ATI, nvidia, Matrox, etc... Same as Apple's machines. Why should Apple develop their own processor?

groucho · Jun 1, 2004, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by GoGoReggieXPowars:
Get a Miglia Alchemy card

thanks for the suggestion which I have looked into but it does not help one bit to squeeze a high Q pic out of my CRT-projector which is HDTV compatible (or any other top of the line projector for that matter). For this I need a state-of-the-art SW DVD-player, possibilties to set resolutions and scan freqs as needed (yes I know of Switchres which can't compare to pc options) - to begin name a few requisites.
I am not bashing mac, here, just stating a deficit in the platform. It's hard luck sitting there with a machine that almost has it all and still so far behind.

Leonard · Jun 1, 2004, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by angelmb:
Exactly, Apple needs to have their very own 3D GPU a.s.a.p., nowadays pc�s gpu are seriously better

Nah, they have the two best graphics chip/card companies competing to put their graphics GPUs on the Mac - ATI and Nvidia. Why waste time making a proprietary GPU.

angelmb · Jun 3, 2004, 05:16 AM

The G5 has the power to cope with high end apps and markets, but does the GPU inside of the G5 have it?, I doubt that. We are several steps behind the pc world in terms of GPU perfomance, and that is not nice. Seems that GPUs are the 'new benchmarks kings' actually. So any better option that to have in house GPUs that support all the Mac OS X actual and upcoming technologies?

stingerman · Jun 3, 2004, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by angelmb:
The G5 has the power to cope with high end apps and markets, but does the GPU inside of the G5 have it?, I doubt that. We are several steps behind the pc world in terms of GPU perfomance, and that is not nice. Seems that GPUs are the 'new benchmarks kings' actually. So any better option that to have in house GPUs that support all the Mac OS X actual and upcoming technologies?

You have no idea what you are talking about. The cores in the Mac retail cards are the same as those in the high-end pro cards and in many cases faster. The RAM difference you see from time to time is just marketing fluff. The difference in speed is nominal between a 128MB 9800 and a 256MB. The only way to leverage the extra memory is for game developers to write a separate path in their games for the additional RAM. It's not worth the extra cost. Apple has always been around the same time frame with the major core changes. In fact, Apple was the first to include a 9600 in their notebooks and now has the 9700 in there.

We'll have to wait for WWDC to see what new GPU's come to the Mac, but if past history serves us right, we'll have all the same core upgrades.

Leonard · Jun 3, 2004, 04:44 PM

I have to agree with stingerman, especially on the OEM graphics cards. The Mac OEM graphics cards are the latest. I wouldn't be surprised to see an OEM ATI Radeon X800 soon (end of June or July maybe) and an ATI Radeon X600 in the next Powerbook revision 5-6 months from now.

Retail graphics cards have been a bit of a problem and always will be for the Mac, since OEM Mac, OEM PC, and retail PC graphics cards are where the market is.

Leonard · Jun 3, 2004, 04:52 PM

Hey Cadaver, you said you were going to give us some news on how it performs. Any info? Especially gamer info.

denaps · Jun 3, 2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by stingerman:
You have no idea what you are talking about. The cores in the Mac retail cards are the same as those in the high-end pro cards and in many cases faster. The RAM difference you see from time to time is just marketing fluff. The difference in speed is nominal between a 128MB 9800 and a 256MB. The only way to leverage the extra memory is for game developers to write a separate path in their games for the additional RAM. It's not worth the extra cost. Apple has always been around the same time frame with the major core changes. In fact, Apple was the first to include a 9600 in their notebooks and now has the 9700 in there.

We'll have to wait for WWDC to see what new GPU's come to the Mac, but if past history serves us right, we'll have all the same core upgrades.

actually i'm not sure this is correct either. the high end PC gfx cards and high end Mac gfx cards are NOT the same. In fact, the fastest Mac card is still the 9800 PRO. Not only do we not have the XT series yet, but now the X800 is out and kicking ass. My hope is that they bypass the XT series since there is only marginal improvement over the 9800 pro and go straight to the X800 series. you can try to justify it all you want, but PC gfx cards always were and are still a good 8-12 months ahead of the Mac arena.

i'm not stating this to argue with people, it's just true. any why wouldn't it be? if you were in ATI's or NVIDIA's shoes, which card would you produce first and focus your energy on? the one for 96% of the market, or the one for 4%?

I do completely agree with you about the memory issue though - there are few apps that utilize 256MB of video memory, and I think at this point in time it is a non issue.

angelmb · Jun 3, 2004, 05:23 PM

Oh, I also work with a SGI, OpenGL of course, I am 'shocked' how fast OpenGL can be.