[Kerrigan]

A while back, I was reading an entry in the blog of William Rees-Mogg (That's Baron Rees-Mogg of Hinton Blewitt to you).

He was asked to describe the ideal country, and his answer was Canada:

“A stable society, access to the U.S. market, good educational and health systems, nice people, a just system of law, economy based on strong raw material supplies, including oil. Low crime rates.” Afterwards I reflected that it would be hard to find a country with so many positives and so few negatives – apart of course from the Canadian winter...

He doesn't really say a lot about Denmark, and in his typically aristocratic, nebulous style, he reaches no conclusion in this comparison.

One of the guests commented that Denmark was the most civilised country in Europe. The Danes also have a cold winter.

I know we have a bunch of Canadians here who may want to chime in. We also have a number of Scandinavians here, who, tellingly, seem to prefer life abroad.

[Dark Helmet]

It depends on what you are looking for, if you want America without the stupid and suck: Canada

If you want more of a European lifestyle: Denmark

Either way I see this thread getting ugly

[Dakar²]

Yes, this should be a fun ride.

[Oisín]

Actually, of the four Danes I’ve observed on this board, only one lives abroad (vexborg, in Scotland). The rest of us all live in Denmark.

I don’t see what makes this baron fella (never heard of him, obviously) say that “Denmark was the most civilised country in Europe”, though. I can easily see that, going by the ‘standard Western values’, welfare countries like Denmark are ‘ahead’, so to speak; but I don’t see what makes Denmark any more civilised than the other welfare countries we compare ourselves to (the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Belgium, Luxembourg, etc.).

If anything, I’d say at least a few of them (Sweden and the Netherlands in particularly) should be considered more ‘civilised’ than Denmark, if for nothing else then for the respective political landscapes of the three countries in the past decade or so.


And there’s no such thing as an ‘ideal country’; the notion is absurd. There are, of course, certain basics that can be seen to be nearly universally ideal, such as for instance being able to walk down the street without being killed (i.e., no war/stable society) or low crime rates. But most other factors that determine whether or not a country is ideal are highly personal—I might not want to live in a country that has access to the U.S. market; or has welfare-based educational and health systems. I might like having a sub-zero freezing cold winter and no summer. People are too different for such a notion as an ‘ideal country’ to exist.

I know several people (I can think of four off the top of my head) who come from countries that most certainly would not come into the good baron’s considerations for most ‘ideal’ country (China, Egypt, and Indonesia, specifically), but are living in Denmark—and hate it here. They agree on all those points that makes Denmark ‘ideal’: the welfare, the justice system, the personal freedom, etc.; but they don’t really care all that much, because they hate the mild, humid climate, the quiet, inwards people, the littleness of the society, and basically the mood or atmosphere of the country. They all plan on finishing their studies as fast as possible, and then going back to their respective homes, which, to them, are more ideal than Denmark is (or Canada would be).

[angelmb]

When I was enrolled at AppleSeed the nicest people were by far the Canadians… (I think) there is one of them posting here again and again.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I don’t see what makes this baron fella (never heard of him, obviously) say that “Denmark was the most civilised country in Europe”, though.

He used to be the editor of the Times of London during the 60s, 70s, and 80s, if you're familiar with that paper.

Also, he didn't actually say that Denmark was the most civilized country in Europe, a guest of his said that.

Other than that, I agree with what you said.

[Oisín]

Also, he didn't actually say that Denmark was the most civilized country in Europe, a guest of his said that.

Ah, right, read over that a bit too quickly.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

And there’s no such thing as an ‘ideal country’; the notion is absurd. There are, of course, certain basics that can be seen to be nearly universally ideal, such as for instance being able to walk down the street without being killed (i.e., no war/stable society) or low crime rates. But most other factors that determine whether or not a country is ideal are highly personal—I might not want to live in a country that has access to the U.S. market; or has welfare-based educational and health systems. I might like having a sub-zero freezing cold winter and no summer. People are too different for such a notion as an ‘ideal country’ to exist.

QFT.

greg

[lpkmckenna]

I know little or nothing of Denmark, so I can't choose.

I've always thought highly of Switzerland.

[Pendergast]

Antartica seems like a cool place. Why does no one ever talk of Antarctica?

No civilization, barely any wildlife (except for a few seals, happyfeet type of beasts and the rare and unusual wasp...

This North to South discrimination should stop!

However, as a Canadian, I think Canada is a nice country. My contacts with Danes and Swedes were sporadic, and although both seem nice groups of people (I was teaching French to them) they did not seem to like one another much. Not one bit.

And I agree with Oisin.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

QFT.

greg

So just to clarify if you quote someone now it automatically makes what they say true?

[voodoo]

I don't know. Canada is probably nice, but I don't know. I've never been there. Denmark.. yes. It's ok. A bit flat for my taste.

(Hun får Dolly Parton å se ut som Danmark!)

I need mountains. Hence, Norway is the ideal country IMO.

Spain is lovely as well.

V

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

So just to clarify if you quote someone now it automatically makes what they say true?

Well, moreso if I quote them. I cannot speak for the truthiness of other members of this forum.

greg

[Jawbone54]

Boo on this thread.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

He was asked to describe the ideal country, and his answer was Canada:

“A stable society, access to the U.S. market, good educational and health systems, nice people, a just system of law, economy based on strong raw material supplies, including oil. Low crime rates.” Afterwards I reflected that it would be hard to find a country with so many positives and so few negatives – apart of course from the Canadian winter...

Millions more Americans live in a similar climate as Canada. Take New York, Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Washington and Alaska and you probably have double the population of Canada.

Many people love winter.

Most northern countries have better and healthier life styles.

[Mastrap]

Where you live, and what country is perfect for you, depends entirely in what kind of person you are. Some of my friends love living in Arizona, for me personally that would be purgatory.

Personally I love living in Toronto. I love cold winters and hot summers, I love access to more nature that you could possibly ask for, I love living in a multi-cultural society. I could ask for no better country to live in but Canada. But that's just me and others will have different, and equally valid, opinions about the place they live in.

[Steve Bosell]

Neither,
I would rather live in Mexico than Canada.

[Dakar²]

Love the water, eh?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I need mountains. Hence, Norway is the ideal country IMO.

Rocky Mountains!



P.S. I hear the selection of restaurants in the Scandanavian countries isn't too deep.

Then again, it's the same way in parts of Canada. However, there are tons of restaurants here in Toronto. The only thing my friend's dad from Sweden does when he visits is go to restaurants.

[macforray]

I live two hours away from the ideal country? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Steve Bosell 

Neither,
I would rather live in Mexico than Canada.

Good thing Canada wants you to live in Mexico also.

[Jawbone54]

Been to Mexico last year. No thanks.

[BRussell]

I believe Denmark has a pretty high crime rate; higher than the US, and one of the highest in the world.

[khufuu]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Good thing Canada wants you to live in Mexico also.

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark!

.... but true ....

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I believe Denmark has a pretty high crime rate; higher than the US, and one of the highest in the world.

I find that quite hard to believe—got any kind of source? Our crime rates are higher than those of our neighbours (Sweden and Norway), but lower than the UK; I’d expect the UK to be a bit below the States, as well...

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

I believe Denmark has a pretty high crime rate; higher than the US, and one of the highest in the world.

That's the trouble with believing rather than knowing

INCIDENCE OF CRIME

While both INTERPOL and UN Survey data are available for Denmark, INTERPOL data are more complete and current, and so will be used in the following analysis. The crime rate in Denmark is moderate compared to other industrialized countries. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Denmark will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2000 was 4.03 for Denmark, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.51 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2000 was 9.32 for Denmark, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 32.05 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2000 was 59.14 for Denmark, 4.08 for Japan, and 144.92 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2000 was 23.68 for Denmark, 23.78 for Japan, and 323.62 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2000 was 1868.06 for Denmark, 233.60 for Japan, and 728.42 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2000 was 1224.71 for Denmark, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2475.27 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2000 was 604.18 for Denmark, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 414.17 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 3793.12 for Denmark, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

without the stupid and suck: Canada

Oxymoron.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Millions more Americans live in a similar climate as Canada. Take New York, Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Washington and Alaska

Depending on where you live in Ohio. Northern Ohio along Lake Eerie? Sure.

Mid to Southern Ohio? naw.

I've seen a 20° difference between the two areas in Ohio.

Most northern countries have better and healthier life styles.

If this is even provable, I doubt it has anything to do with the climate.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

If this is even provable, I doubt it has anything to do with the climate.

DOn't know about 'better' or 'healthier', but have you noticed the more northern countries tend to be more advanced.

[IceBreaker]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

DOn't know about 'better' or 'healthier', but have you noticed the more northern countries tend to be more advanced.

northern countries have to be more advanced, its cold, you gotta work to build a house to keep out the cold, keep it heated and manage a food supply thru the winter.

the further you get closer to the equater the less advanced you find societies are.

and maybe thats not a bad thing. if you can sit on a beach and a cocanut falls by your side to eat then your worth ethic is going to be less.

trade offs.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by IceBreaker 

northern countries have to be more advanced, its cold, you gotta work to build a house to keep out the cold, keep it heated and manage a food supply thru the winter.

That's similar to my conclusion as to why. Seasonal variations promote innovation and progress.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I find that quite hard to believe—got any kind of source? Our crime rates are higher than those of our neighbours (Sweden and Norway), but lower than the UK; I’d expect the UK to be a bit below the States, as well...

Here's a table of crime rates per capita. I'm not sure how accurate it is: Total crime rate per capita. If you look at individual crimes, it seems that the violent crimes are low and the property crimes are high - burglaries, for example, were quite high but murders are not.

#1 Dominica: 113.822 per 1,000 people
#2 New Zealand: 105.881 per 1,000 people
#3 Finland: 101.526 per 1,000 people
#4 Denmark: 92.8277 per 1,000 people
#5 Chile: 88.226 per 1,000 people
#6 United Kingdom: 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#7 Montserrat: 80.3982 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#9 Netherlands: 79.5779 per 1,000 people
#10 South Africa: 77.1862 per 1,000 people
#11 Germany: 75.9996 per 1,000 people
#12 Canada: 75.4921 per 1,000 people
#13 Norway: 71.8639 per 1,000 people
#14 France: 62.1843 per 1,000 people
#15 Seychelles: 52.9265 per 1,000 people
#16 Hungary: 44.9763 per 1,000 people
#17 Estonia: 43.3601 per 1,000 people
#18 Czech Republic: 38.2257 per 1,000 people
#19 Italy: 37.9633 per 1,000 people
#20 Switzerland: 36.1864 per 1,000 people

[Kevin]

The US and Canada aren't that different according to that as far as crime goes. The larger number on the US side probably reflects the greater population as well.

Just as many people here have been saying. Though some people in here act as if Canada is a crime free Utopia compared to the US.

We've all seen baitcar.

having said that each area in each country is different

For example where I live the violent crime rate was 0.8 per 1,000 people.

[monkeybrain]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

For example where I live the violent crime rate was 0.8 per 1,000 people.

Was? Did you just finish a murder spree?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The US and Canada aren't that different according to that as far as crime goes. The larger number on the US side probably reflects the greater population as well.

Just as many people here have been saying. Though some people in here act as if Canada is a crime free Utopia compared to the US.

We've all seen baitcar.

having said that each area in each country is different

For example where I live the violent crime rate was 0.8 per 1,000 people.

The rate of violent crime is much lower in Canada than in the US.

The large number on the US side is a rate, not population dependent.

To put it into perspective:

1) The rate of murder in large Canadian cities is higher than the Canadian national average.
2) The rate of murder in large American cities is higher than the American national average.
3) The rate of murder in the largest Canadian cities is about in the same ballpark as the American national average, and thus, much lower than large American cities.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Eug 

The rate of violent crime is much lower in Canada than in the US.

Linkage?

[Gossamer]

NationMaster - Statistics > Murders (per capita) by country
Here's one on murders.
Canada has 14.9 per million people, while the US has 42.8. Of course, neither of those can compare to Colombia's 617.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

NationMaster - Statistics > Murders (per capita) by country
Here's one on murders.
Canada has 14.9 per million people, while the US has 42.8. Of course, neither of those can compare to Colombia's 617.

I see Iraq is conveniently missing. Probably off the scale.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

I see Iraq is conveniently missing. Probably off the scale.

Na the problem is the guy they sent to Iraq to study the numbers came back without his body.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

I see Iraq is conveniently missing. Probably off the scale.

Well, that data is a bit older, so it wouldn't include recent events.

Furthermore, lots of countries don't divulge accurate information on this anyway. Hence, China isn't on the list either.

[Atomic Rooster]

The violence just never stops.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/070118/K011815AU.html

Only in Merika.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

The violence just never stops.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/Oddities/070118/K011815AU.html

Only in Merika.

Life imitates art.

[ink]

Whistler is in Canada, ergo... no contest.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Most northern countries have better and healthier life styles.

You obviously have never lived in Michigan

[Kerrigan]

Or Scotland

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by villalobos 

You obviously have never lived in Michigan

Accurate. Michigan is not the paragon of health.

Or Wisconsin. Cheeseheads the lot of 'em.

[vexborg]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Actually, of the four Danes I’ve observed on this board, only one lives abroad (vexborg, in Scotland). The rest of us all live in Denmark.

Yes, still living in Scotland and are not planning on returning to Denmark. Why? To be honest, I think it is a pure financial solution - in Denmark I wouldn't be able to find a job using my education (Librarian), and as unemployed living in Denmark is too expensive.

In Scotland I was able to find a job, a call-centre job tough, but do have a part-time job as a Library Supervisor, so it's going in the right direction.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Depending on where you live in Ohio. Northern Ohio along Lake Eerie? Sure.

Is that lake haunted?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The US and Canada aren't that different according to that as far as crime goes. The larger number on the US side probably reflects the greater population as well.

You owe me a new keyboard. Buy yourself a clue while you're there.