[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by JLL 

They do!!! I am writing this from Leopard!!

The shadows are NOT part of the icon!

So if I ask you to put an icon or image I create will you put it in the Dock and give us a snapshot?

[analogika]

Can you please stop being an ass?

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Can you please stop being an ass?

He's halfway to breaking NDA so I might as well ask him to prove it before someone else does. It's a dirty job but someone.....

[wr11]

Do you mean reflections of the icons on the dock, or the actual shadows?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

He's halfway to breaking NDA so I might as well ask him to prove it before someone else does. It's a dirty job but someone.....

There's a place for you over in the Political Lounge.

Now cut it out.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by analogika 

There's a place for you over in the Political Lounge.

Now cut it out.

There is nothing wrong with demanding of JLL to owe up to his claims if he is to be taken seriously at all. If he's scared of breaking the NDA, then he should just shut up about Leopard already and not make any claims at all.

Frankly, I doubt it would make one squat of a difference because he usually doesn't back up any of his claims. NDA or no. But it is entertaining to see how much of a stuck up besserwisser he can be.

V

[analogika]

Dude, you're talking about a ****ing SHADOW ON A DOCK ICON in a beta preview of a computer operating system, not the unlawful international kidnapping of foreign citizens by the CIA.

I also don't recall JLL ever having posted anything untrue about a build of Mac OS X.

I also don'r see why this *shouldn't* be true. Look at the image: http://images.apple.com/macosx/leopa...om20070611.jpg
GarageBand icon. Shadow underneath the icon, going off to the right: Part of the icon, and present in the Tiger Dock. Shadow BEHIND the icon, going OFF the Dock and folding round the bottom onto the Desktop image: New, generated by Leopard, and NOT part of the icon. Obvious, not hard to understand, and certainly neither worth lying about nor worth goading someone into breaking their NDA over.



And re: "stuck up besserwisser" -

I know you're just going to call me an "arrogant German", but I'm somehow *quite* certain that you wouldn't have called him that if he didn't have "Copenhagen" in his location field, and you just have a ****ing axe to grind with your prejudices against everybody except, oddly, Icelanders and Spaniards. It's just a little too obvious.

And Super Mario was being an ass.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by analogika 

And Super Mario was being an ass.

I asked him to back it up. How natural is that when someone would?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Dude, you're talking about a ****ing SHADOW ON A DOCK ICON in a beta preview of a computer operating system, not the unlawful international kidnapping of foreign citizens by the CIA.

Pleeeezzz don't call me dude. You can call me Ishmael.

I also don't recall JLL ever having posted anything untrue about a build of Mac OS X.

Ah I don't recall him posting anything untrue about the contents of apple pie, but that doesn't mean he hasn't posted incorrect things about other things many many times before.

I also don'r see why this *shouldn't* be true. Look at the image: http://images.apple.com/macosx/leopa...om20070611.jpg
GarageBand icon. Shadow underneath the icon, going off to the right: Part of the icon, and present in the Tiger Dock. Shadow BEHIND the icon, going OFF the Dock and folding round the bottom onto the Desktop image: New, generated by Leopard, and NOT part of the icon.

Oh agree, I'm sure 10.5 generates the shadow. That doesn't mean people should just waltz in a tech forum and claim things without even trying to substantiate their claim. If you could, he could. Without breaking any NDA, using only publicly available information.

Obvious, not hard to understand, and certainly neither worth lying about nor worth goading someone into breaking their NDA over.

Oh common, show some of that wild wild Spheric that goes around and goads people to break their NDAs!

And re: "stuck up besserwisser" -

I know you're just going to call me an "arrogant German", but I'm somehow *quite* certain that you wouldn't have called him that if he didn't have "Copenhagen" in his location field, and you just have a ****ing axe to grind with your prejudices against everybody except, oddly, Icelanders and Spaniards. It's just a little too obvious.

And Super Mario was being an ass.

Of course Super Mario was being an ass. He's Italian. That's what they do.

I would never call you an arrogant German! I'm shocked you should even contemplate the possibility that I'd stoop so low. You're more of a politically correct Prussian

V

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I know you're just going to call me an "arrogant German", but I'm somehow *quite* certain that you wouldn't have called him that if he didn't have "Copenhagen" in his location field, and you just have a ****ing axe to grind with your prejudices against everybody except, oddly, Icelanders and Spaniards. It's just a little too obvious.

Look. Voodoo has a grudge against the world it seems, no matter their location. It doesn't take too much observation or psychoanalysis to figure out exactly when this happened. Just ignore him and his emotional outbursts. If he goes too far, report him. Only way to deal with people like that.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Look. Voodoo has a grudge against the world it seems, no matter their location. It doesn't take too much observation or psychoanalysis to figure out exactly when this happened. Just ignore him and his emotional outbursts. If he goes too far, report him. Only way to deal with people like that.

Ahhhh the patronizing erik again. Well, as much as I'd like to continue this internet cat-fight the patronizing zings just get boring real fast. You'd keep my interest far longer with the occational sharp sarcasm or pop-reference.

Have fun erik!

PS: what happened to me?

V

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Look. Voodoo has a grudge against the world it seems, no matter their location. It doesn't take too much observation or psychoanalysis to figure out exactly when this happened. Just ignore him and his emotional outbursts. If he goes too far, report him. Only way to deal with people like that.

I would rather read Voodoo no matter what he says agreeable or disagreeable than one sentence from the Islamist analogika

lol unlawful kidnapping by CIA agents

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

PS: what happened to me?

I don't know Voodoo. I don't know.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

...the Islamist analogika...

???



Perhaps you've got analogika confused with Logic?

Analogika used to go by Spheric Harlot (if I'm not mistaken) and is German. I think Logic is Weyland-Yutani, who apparently lives in iceland and converted to Islam.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by analogika 

.

I also don'r see why this *shouldn't* be true. Look at the image: http://images.apple.com/macosx/leopa...om20070611.jpg

Call me crazy, but where is the dock separator?
The new leopard movies show a gap between apps and stacks but its missing in this pic.

Any idea why?

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

Call me crazy, but where is the dock separator?
The new leopard movies show a gap between apps and stacks but its missing in this pic.

Any idea why?

Mock up.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

???



Perhaps you've got analogika confused with Logic?

Analogika used to go by Spheric Harlot (if I'm not mistaken) and is German. I think Logic is Weyland-Yutani, who apparently lives in iceland and converted to Islam.

Not confused.

[analogika]

Just a jerk.

Edit: " "

[Chuckit]

Watch the keynote when Steve opens the stack of his Applications folder. No retarded drop shadows in the icons. Boom.

[chris v]

Thanks for a taste of why I had myself banned from the lounge, guys.

So. Does the finder still lock up & beachball for 30 seconds when mounting an iDisk (is it more multithreaded now)?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Thanks for a taste of why I had myself banned from the lounge, guys.

So. Does the finder still lock up & beachball for 30 seconds when mounting an iDisk (is it more multithreaded now)?

According to the Leopard sites and a few reports I've heard, networking now involves zero beachballs.

[JLL]

I PM'ed Super Mario

[analogika]

Originally Posted by chris v 

Thanks for a taste of why I had myself banned from the lounge, guys.

And here I thought just avoiding the hellpit that is the Political Lounge might be enough to avoid these assholes...

[JLL]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Look. Voodoo has a grudge against the world it seems, no matter their location. It doesn't take too much observation or psychoanalysis to figure out exactly when this happened. Just ignore him and his emotional outbursts. If he goes too far, report him. Only way to deal with people like that.

He's been on my ignore list for years.

[Visnaut]

Originally Posted by USNA91 

Good grief. Picky much?

Quite the contrary! For the record, I don't care whether it's an illusion, an explicitly developed effect, or a new icon format; I think it looks good! I pointed it out because it makes optical sense that a shadow cast onto a reflective surface would not be reflected back at you, and figured it was Apple's classic attention to detail.

Now what I can't believe is that a simple observation of a neat effect in Leopard's Dock would turn into an all-out b*tch fest.

Have fun working this one out, guys. Can't wait for October.

[Patrician]

The CoreImage generated shadow on the dock icons have been on my wishlist for years. Simply because developers couldn't agree on a uniform way of rendering them. Some were darker and others were longer (lightsource from a different angle). I am very happy that Apple now took it upon themselves to encourage developers to leave that task to the operating system itself. That means that users should have a way, officially or via a hack, to determine the shadows appearance and even its existence.

On a related note, does anyone know whether or not the old effects such as shadows behind windows, rendering of windows in Exposé, and so on have been rewritten to utilize CI as well? If so then maybe windows in Exposé-mode now also have shadows behind them (both during the transition between states and in the zoomed-out state).

Also, if anyone can confirm, does the user still have access to putting things like files, folders, hard disks et cetera on the Desktop, or has that now been reserved simply for displaying the background image? My hope is that this is the case and that the Exposé Show Desktop-function has now been removed. I personally prefer the uncluttered look of a clean desktop and I think that this is a practice that Apple should promote from top-down. Just like they tried with the public beta.

Oh, and I should also voice my concern over the transparent menubar. Although I'll withhold judgement until I have tried it in person, I'll remain skeptical of its usefulness and practicality.

Ps.
Love the death of brushed metal. Love the unification of windows. Pray you are next, GarageBand!

[krove]

If you watch Steve Jobs demo during the keynote, he places a file on the Desktop and promptly deletes it. So, yes, it is possible to place things on the desktop.

The nice part is that Downloads will now be redirected to the stack in the dock (which I assume corresponds to a folder in the user's home folder. That should markedly improve the average user's desktop clutter.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by krove 

If you watch Steve Jobs demo during the keynote, he places a file on the Desktop and promptly deletes it. So, yes, it is possible to place things on the desktop.

Well ya that and in all the pictures of the finder there is an item called "Desktop".

[voodoo]

The Desktop is alive and well. I'm looking forward to play with the new Finder. I hope there will be more consistency than before and less beachballs.

V

[OreoCookie]

People, please chill a little and get back on topic here.

The Desktop seems to work as usual. If you remember the Stevenote, he dragged a file onto the Desktop and it appeared just as usual. It seems things work just fine. I'd be interested if minimizing still works the same way and if Windows of the same app are grouped in stacks, too … 

[youngfool]

Hi All,

I'm a newbie here so bare with me.

So is it safe to say that with the new 3D Dock, the Desktop has a set depth now. Based on the close up screen shot provided above of the Stack example, the icons have a shadow which now drops back against the background image. It seems to me now that there is this, for arguments sake 1 inch gap, between the monitor and the background image which is the depth of the new dock and everything else lives in the space between.

Am I nutz or has anyone else noticed this?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by youngfool 

Hi All,

I'm a newbie here so bare with me.

So is it safe to say that with the new 3D Dock, the Desktop has a set depth now. Based on the close up screen shot provided above of the Stack example, the icons have a shadow which now drops back against the background image. It seems to me now that there is this, for arguments sake 1 inch gap, between the monitor and the background image which is the depth of the new dock and everything else lives in the space between.

Am I nutz or has anyone else noticed this?

You could look at it that way. Why?

[Visnaut]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I'd be interested if minimizing still works the same way and if Windows of the same app are grouped in stacks, too … 

That would be awesome!

[youngfool]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You could look at it that way. Why?

It just feels like much more of a defined 3-dimensional space now. Where as in Tiger, elements felt as though they were floating on top of a flat 2D surface, elements in Leopard now live in a 3D area. All though the new Dock change might seem like eye candy, as some people say, but the change does help to further this 3D space metaphor. My uneducated 2¢.

[danuff]

Hi all,
First, let me start out by saying that I have been using computers for over 20 years. First TRSDOS, then DOS, then WINDOWS. My first 'real' computer was a DOS machine, and that impressed my friends and I at the time because that's all we knew about computers at that time.

I got my Mac in 2004 and loved it ever since. I was using Macs when Apple changed from Jaguar to Tiger. Again, I was impressed with what Jobs showed at one of his Keynotes and wanted the O/S immediately, because Tiger was using the state-of-the-art technologies at the time. But even then, there were limatations at what the hardware and software could handle at the time,

I was extremely impressed with Tiger and the additions that Apple has made to the O/S. So, I was extremely impressed what Jobs showed during the Keynote. I, for one, cannot wait for Leopard and I am sure that I'll be one of the first ones to purchase it when Apple makes it available on their web site, which I hope is soon. Again, I am extremely impressed with what Leopard CAN do, that I cannot wait to see what Apple has up its sleeve for future versions when the software and hardware are able to handle what Apple comes up with.

For those persons who say that they are disappointed with the additions and/or changes that Leopard is going to bring to there Macs, I bet that 98% of the people on this board have never used a DOS box before or even know what DOS stands for. I feel that today's (young) computer user really do not know what it took for the industry to get to as far as it is, and just expect for a feature to be included in the new O/S when the software and/or hardware may not be able to handle it. I am sure Apple has its reasons to drop features from the future version - because if they did not, and if it didn't work like some people THINK of the way it should - then Apple would be labled a company that puts out technology that doesn't work.

For those who think that Leopard is lacking features - I say, put up or shut up. Try to make one of the features that YOU would like to have seen in Leopard and then make it as an add-on. If you do not want to do that, then do not complain about it. I believe that Apple is going to come out with more innovative products in the future like they did when they went from OS 9 to OS X.

Thanks for reading my rant.
Dan

[hmurchison2001]

Good post Dan

I'm all for complaints when they end with viable solutions or suggestions but when someone complains and their complaint is tantamount to

"Well...I just expected something bigger" you have to wonder how this person computes. Most people have defined features that they want and when they're disappointed about these features not showing up or improving they can clearly discuss what and why they want said feature.

There seems to be many Mac users who simply want to be entertained. They're like the small child that beams as the magician pulls the white rabbit out of the hate...blissfully unaware of the surrounding world.

I was interested in Top Secret features because frankly I couldn't think of many huge features that the typical consumer could understand easily. There's nothing missing in Leopard that is so egregious that Apple should be tarred and feathered.

[lpkmckenna]

Whoa, danuff. Did someone put tacks in your slippers or something?

Originally Posted by danuff 

For those persons who say that they are disappointed with the additions and/or changes that Leopard is going to bring to there Macs, I bet that 98% of the people on this board have never used a DOS box before or even know what DOS stands for.

Relevance? You don't need to be an old fogey to know that a translucent menu-bar hurts usability.

Originally Posted by danuff 

I am sure Apple has its reasons to drop features from the future version - because if they did not, and if it didn't work like some people THINK of the way it should - then Apple would be labled a company that puts out technology that doesn't work.

Some of Apple's tech doesn't work. (Backup, anyone?)

Originally Posted by danuff 

Try to make one of the features that YOU would like to have seen in Leopard and then make it as an add-on.

I'd love to add Live Bookmarks to Safari, but Apple doesn't provide an API for that. In fact, InputManagers may be removed with Leopard.

I'd love to put folders on the left side of the Dock, but I can't hack the Dock because it's built with encrypted binaries.

I'd love it if that little green zoom box worked when I clicked it. See a trend?

I agree: Leopard is gonna rock.

But asking Apple to fix the little things isn't asking for much, really. Asking Apple to deliver on its hype isn't much to ask, either. Steve told us he was hiding some "secret features" so that Redmond wouldn't copy them. Frankly, I don't buy that CoverFlow or Stakes are those hidden features. I expected something "worth stealing," but nothing materialized. Really, last year's keynote was far more interesting.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by danuff 

For those who think that Leopard is lacking features - I say, put up or shut up. Try to make one of the features that YOU would like to have seen in Leopard and then make it as an add-on.

For someone who's talking about understanding practicalities, this is sure a weird suggestion. Improving a program without the source code or a decent plugin archtecture is way more difficult than simply writing in a new feature. Give us the source to OS X and I guarantee you people will add the features they'd like to see.

[besson3c]

I just find some of the way OS X is developed to be rather weird.

Usually, a developer gets the core functionality working optimally, and then starts adding on features to this solid foundation, right? I can be forgiving of some of the advanced features in the missing advanced feature thread, but Apple hasn't gotten some of the basics right in rather surprising areas. The most glaring example, IMHO, is the Finder. This is kind of an important application, right? Why is it that after all of these years it still performs like crap?

I'd honestly rather Apple refine what we have rather than tacking on new bells and whistles.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I just find some of the way OS X is developed to be rather weird.

Usually, a developer gets the core functionality working optimally, and then starts adding on features to this solid foundation, right? I can be forgiving of some of the advanced features in the missing advanced feature thread, but Apple hasn't gotten some of the basics right in rather surprising areas. The most glaring example, IMHO, is the Finder. This is kind of an important application, right? Why is it that after all of these years it still performs like crap?

I'd honestly rather Apple refine what we have rather than tacking on new bells and whistles.

What do you find deficient about the Leopard Finder?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

What do you find deficient about the Leopard Finder?

I don't know yet. How can I? I was speaking in general, with the Tiger Finder in mind. Would you like a list of Tiger Finder deficiencies?

[kman42]

Ooooh...I like the idea of minimized windows being grouped in a Stack by application. That's smart.

kman

[Chuckit]

Considering all the major deficiencies I see in the Finder are reported to be fixed in Leopard, I think attacking Apple for moving on to other development in Leopard is a bit premature.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Considering all the major deficiencies I see in the Finder are reported to be fixed in Leopard, I think attacking Apple for moving on to other development in Leopard is a bit premature.

Reported? By whom? The same people that reported that all of the so-called debug code was removed from 10.0? Means nothing to me until I can get my hands on it and see for myself... I'm not saying these issues haven't been resolved, but I'm not as trusting (nor happy to defend Apple) as you.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Reported? By whom? The same people that reported that all of the so-called debug code was removed from 10.0? Means nothing to me until I can get my hands on it and see for myself... I'm not saying these issues haven't been resolved, but I'm not as trusting (nor happy to defend Apple) as you.

It is true, I'm not so happy to attack Apple that I'll disregard any positive reports and just assume Apple ****ed up regardless.

Anyway, the point is, it's silly to go, "Oh, Apple, you should fix the Finder before you work on this other stuff" when Apple is saying, "Hey, we fixed the Finder!"

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Some of Apple's tech doesn't work. (Backup, anyone?)

Yes? I use backup to take care of my 1TB daily backup and have been saved by it several times. It may not be flashy like Time Machine but it most definitely works.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by danuff 

I bet that 98% of the people on this board have never used a DOS box before or even know what DOS stands for.

Listen here, you young punk -- some of us have been around so long that we used to carve our own ones and zeroes out of stone! And get off my lawn!

Seriously, I think "98%" is an overstatement. I had me a 286 laptop with DOS on it back in the 80's and remember the launch of Windows 3.1 quite clearly. I'm one of the original switchers-- from Win 3.1 to Mac OS 7. But the things I value most of all in OS X are stability, speed and ease-of-use. Flashy shadows and stuff come in a distant 4th on my list of why to use an OS. I do think Apple, over the course of OS X, have misplaced it a bit too high on their priority list, so I'll say the jury's definitely still out until the final version ships and we get to see how fast, stable and bug-free this thing is, and whether these new visuals are really an enhancement to workflow or a distraction.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Relevance? You don't need to be an old fogey to know that a translucent menu-bar hurts usability.

How can you possibly know this having never used Jaguar?

People whine and complain that things will "hurt usability", but the fact is we won't know this until someone actually uses it and posts their impressions.

Frankly, I have a hard time believing that a translucent menu bar is going to hurt usability...

[- - e r i k - -]

Usability is not about personal preference.

[bballe336]

I really find the new desktop to be garbage. Before the dock was a block with an actual top, this way I could line my application windows up with the top of the dock easily and neither would interfere with each other. The dock doesn't have a top now so I can't do that and it will look like crap. The translucent menu bar is also gross, did apple stop to think that maybe I want the menu bar to be a solid color so that it's less confusing and cluttered? At least I can change that one. Also getting rid of the brushed metal look for this unified thing is pretty ugly. The new finder is pretty lame too, especially if you aren't a fan of the itunes set up. I'm not much for the flat buttons and ugly itunes scroll bars.

I really hope apple gives you the option to use all the old style GUI looks, for me they would just be more functional.