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Went to the LA Car Show Yesterday
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Big Mac
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Nov 28, 2011, 04:32 PM
 
So I went with my brother to the 2011 LA Car Show on its last day, yesterday afternoon. My takeaways:

1. The biggest surprise I experienced was finding out that most sedans today have terrible headroom and interior space. Most new cars feel completely crammed even with the seat all the way back and down. My midsize Ford sedan from ten years ago feels wonderfully cavernous by comparison. The biggest letdowns in the area were the Ford sedans, particularly the Fusion but also the Taurus, which has always supposedly been the large sedan. I'm only barely 6" so I'm not a giant; I shouldn't have to crane my neck to get in the drivers' seat, but that's what I had to do to get into the Fusion and many other sedans. Even many of the SUVs felt surprisingly cramped, and upgrading to the Lincoln section offered no help. WTF? Ford is out of the question for me now, except for possibly Mustang. Anyone know why car designers went in this very bad direction?

2. Sedans with more acceptable headroom were from Kia, Hyundai and Honda, but Honda felt especially drab. Nissan and Mazda were okay but not great in this department. I didn't bother with Toyota because I drove a recent model year Toyota and wasn't impressed.

3. In addition to the lack of headroom, I don't like that many of these cars have sharply diagonal windshields. It appeared like it would be very awkward driving them.

4. The first sedan that I sat in that felt really good was, surprisingly, VW. It's now definitely in the running for me. (What's VW reliability like I wonder.) Mercedes was as expected. Audi, boring. Volvo seemed nice, but then my brother pointed out the absolutely cartoonish digital instrumentation that seems like it would kill any potential for a sale to me.

5. Porsche had its own room. I found it surprising that the entry-level Porsche is a small SUV (the Cayenne).i would consider the Cayenne depending on its reviews, but I was blown away by the price tags on the others. Anyone think more than a hundred grand for a Porsche is at all a sensible purchase?
( Last edited by Big Mac; Nov 30, 2011 at 07:34 PM. )

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olePigeon
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Nov 28, 2011, 04:41 PM
 
A buddy of mine is a 6'4", and the only sedan he could find that he could fit in was from Hyundai.
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Nov 28, 2011, 04:44 PM
 
Did you look at the Ford Focus at all? It has a totally different design inside and out from the normal Ford's. I am for the most part happy with the 2012 Focus. Still its a ford... it reminds you of that with little things here and there all the time.

A lot of the new cars from all the companies are sharing the same annoying issues with head and leg room. It has to do with government mandated safety requirements. You will notice all new cars have very thick pillars which cause blind spots for when you are turning. A entire human at the right distance can easily hide behind the pillar.

My Honda Prelude is smaller then my Focus, yet the leg room is better. In fact everything inside of the car for the front is bigger. Back seats useless on it. But the thickness of the door is thinner, the dash leaves lots of room. Overall much nicer design for comfort. Problem is, my focus could take a good head on and side impact with not a lot of damage to me while my old nicer prelude while survivable for a front impact would be obliterated in a side impact killing me no doubt at any speed. So these horrible crampness designs are mostly about safety and some bad engineering for cosmetics.
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Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 28, 2011, 04:45 PM
 
Crazy. My brother's 6'3" so it was that much more difficult for him to try to cram himself in. I really don't understand why cars are being designed like that now.

Thank you for the explanation, Athens, that helps account for this trend. Damn government! Is this not a plot to take the enjoyment out of personal transportation so that we all resort to public? In response to your question, I didn't take one look at the Focus because I thought it would be even worse.

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Nov 28, 2011, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
What's VW reliability like I wonder.
VW have never been the most reliable cars. Electrical gremlins, especially, have dogged VWs over the years. I can't speak for the latest crop, though. And, even though they are "affordable" in comparison to their German brethren, they can still cost every bit as much to repair as their German brethren. VW also has one of the stingier warranties...3year/36k basic, 5year/60k powertrain.

All that said, I like my old GTi for zipping around town.
     
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Nov 28, 2011, 04:46 PM
 
Oh missed something there "VW reliability"

Hit and miss. If you get a lemon you are screwed. Otherwise pretty good. VW either work and work well or are a nightmare. The lemons are far and in between of course and im sure its true for all cars, but VW can never get the lemon working right is what I have seen from those unlucky enough to own a lemon.

B have you looked at a Ford F-150? You might be surprised at how much room is in the truck. Its become what the old Sedans used to be known for, and that's roomie and comfortable.

PS some of it is government, I think competition between the Auto makers for safety might play a role in it too.
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Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 28, 2011, 04:53 PM
 
Interesting. Yeah, I assumed as much about VW. Interestingly enough, since you mention it I actually did get in the F-150 and liked it a lot. It certainly had the room I was looking for, but I've been a sedan (or large coupe) person all my life and haven't really been comfortable with trucks and SUVs. Maybe I need to step up to one.

Anyone know if there happened to be a particular model year after which headroom started getting compromised? Was it mid-last decade?
( Last edited by Big Mac; Nov 28, 2011 at 05:06 PM. )

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Nov 28, 2011, 05:43 PM
 
Get the F-150 you know you wanna or test drive one. It drives more like a car then a truck. Then get the tow package, a camper and come up to Washington so we can go camping and butt heads in person over are differences in Views

No seriously though if you like the room and the feel test drive it. You will trade in safety of a older more roomie sedan for something that you already like now. Parking a pickup is EASY much easier then any of the new cars out there. Its versatile as well. Gas is about the only issue with them but even so the price difference between a F-150 and a Porche is enough to fuel it for the life time of the truck.
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Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 28, 2011, 05:53 PM
 
Parking a truck is something of a concern of mine, along with general maneuverability. I had my mom's Trailblazer while my Contour was getting some maintenance, and I tried to get her some gas. I went to one of the far pumps adjacent to the street and felt like I had to get all the way to the side and ride the curb to avoid taking off her mirror. Of course, she used to drive a Saturn station wagon and now swears by her SUV. Maybe I would get used to it.

Ford had a "get $50 for a test drive" promotion that I signed up for at the event. I guess I'll go test an F-150. Thank you so much for the info.

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Nov 28, 2011, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Anyone think more than a hundred grand for a Porsche is at all a sensible purchase?
<raises hand>

Man, you Americanists are cheap.
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Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 28, 2011, 06:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Man, you Americanists are cheap.
Well, I have assets, but I'm not anywhere near the top 1% like you apparently are, El Dooferino. Not yet. But assuming I were, I don't know if I'd spend $100K+ on a Porsche. I don't particularly like their looks, although I'll say they've improved over previous years.

I like the Ferraris, the Lambos etc. more than Porsche. If I had that kind of wealth I think I'd go to one of those makes instead. However, Top Gear explained that Porsches are excellent every day sports cars. Of course I'm not really sure why Clarkson went with a Ford GT instead of all the exotic Euro-sports machinery he could get.

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Nov 28, 2011, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
A lot of the new cars from all the companies are sharing the same annoying issues with head and leg room. It has to do with government mandated safety requirements.
A great example of this is the Classic Mini vs. a new Mini. The new Mini is two feet longer, a foot wider and almost twice the weight of the classic car, yet it has less rear leg room and about the same luggage space.

Of course if I was in a crash, I'd rather be in a new one, but still...
     
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Nov 28, 2011, 07:10 PM
 
What about the Cayenne is small? (Also the Boxster is cheaper)

I'm 6'4" and I don't really have any issues fitting in any new cars. Sometimes ingress and egress can be difficult, but I don't think there's any recent car that I can remember being uncomfortable in. And I've been in some pretty small cars (Fiesta, Versa, Fit, etc).
     
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Nov 28, 2011, 07:30 PM
 
Oh, I didn't say the Cayenne was small. It's nice. Not big by an stretch but nice. I mentioned I'd consider it if I were considering SUVs and assuming it's well reviewed. As for the Boxster I looked through the small standup informational kiosk and found nothing about it, so I assumed Boxsters were no more. Edit: Yeah there was no Boxster on the floor, just mostly Carreras. Nice to know Porsche does have a lower-end-thought it was strange of them not to.

If you're 6'4" and don't find most new cars' internal dimensions annoying, I guess you're more accepting than I am. I'm used to roomy mid-size, midrange sedans of a decade ago, and most of the new designs just don't sit well with me at all. I shouldn't have to contort my neck to get in and out. I won't pay for a car that forces me to do that.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Nov 28, 2011 at 07:55 PM. )

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imitchellg5
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Nov 28, 2011, 07:58 PM
 
Well my daily driver is a '99 Accord and I also have a '91 Mercedes E-class, which is a pretty big car. I just don't really feel cramped in most new cars I guess. The largest problem I have with a lot of new cars is terrible visibility, especially in SUVs. The C and D pillars in SUVs these days are ridiculously wide, and the rear windows only seem to be getting smaller.
     
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Nov 28, 2011, 08:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
However, Top Gear explained that Porsches are excellent every day sports cars. Of course I'm not really sure why Clarkson went with a Ford GT instead of all the exotic Euro-sports machinery he could get.
Clarkson hates the Porsche 911, as he's a Ferrari man.

I think he went for the Ford GT for a change, since all the Euro exotica aren't really all that exotic over here and he's probably swamped with them already.

The 911 is basically bulletproof - only name-brand exotica which is everyday reliable. Basically you can use them every day for 30 years without a problem.
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Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 28, 2011, 08:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Well my daily driver is a '99 Accord and I also have a '91 Mercedes E-class, which is a pretty big car. I just don't really feel cramped in most new cars I guess. The largest problem I have with a lot of new cars is terrible visibility, especially in SUVs. The C and D pillars in SUVs these days are ridiculously wide, and the rear windows only seem to be getting smaller.
Poor visibility's a big part of my gripe, but not being able to drive these cars off the floor meant comfort issues took central stage. And excuse my lack of car lingo knowledge, but what are C and D pillars?

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Nov 28, 2011, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
excuse my lack of car lingo knowledge, but what are C and D pillars?
A = one holding in windscreen.
B = one just behind your head.
C = one just behind the head of the passenger behind you.
D = rearmost pillar in an SUV/wagon type arrangement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wagon_and_sedan.jpg
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Nov 28, 2011, 08:41 PM
 
Much obliged.

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Nov 28, 2011, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Well my daily driver is a '99 Accord and I also have a '91 Mercedes E-class, which is a pretty big car. I just don't really feel cramped in most new cars I guess. The largest problem I have with a lot of new cars is terrible visibility, especially in SUVs. The C and D pillars in SUVs these days are ridiculously wide, and the rear windows only seem to be getting smaller.
Visibility is a big issue with new cars, all of them. Its one of the few things I really hate about my focus. I went from a car I could see everything from to visibility issues. Makes you wonder how accidents are caused by the stuff designed to make you survive the worst case crashes.
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Nov 28, 2011, 09:08 PM
 
The most comfortable car I've driven lately is the Kia Optima.
     
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Nov 28, 2011, 09:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Visibility is a big issue with new cars, all of them. Its one of the few things I really hate about my focus. I went from a car I could see everything from to visibility issues. Makes you wonder how accidents are caused by the stuff designed to make you survive the worst case crashes.
Do you have the sedan or the hatch? I drove the hatch when it first came out and thought the visibility was very poor, but I've had the sedan as a rental and didn't really have any issue.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 01:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
A buddy of mine is a 6'4", and the only sedan he could find that he could fit in was from Hyundai.
Jags are decent for space, and getting one used is pretty cheap.
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
<raises hand>

Man, you Americanists are cheap.
Porsche is crap*. Go Italian or go home.

But you're thinking, there is no fast Italian SUV to compete with the Cayenne... and there you'd be wrong. Gawd, that actually looks sexy. I may have to buy one.


*(Carrera GT notwithstanding)
( Last edited by Shaddim; Nov 29, 2011 at 02:08 AM. )
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
But you're thinking, there is no fast Italian SUV to compete with the Cayenne... and there you'd be wrong. Gawd, that actually looks sexy. I may have to buy one.
You have to be joking. That is one of the worst automotive designs I've ever seen, if not one of the worst industrial designs. I'd be happy to point out everything that's wrong with it if you'd like.

And in the end, it's not Italian at all, it's a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Do you have the sedan or the hatch? I drove the hatch when it first came out and thought the visibility was very poor, but I've had the sedan as a rental and didn't really have any issue.
Sedan,

Don't like the A Pillars, when doing a left turn at the right distance a person can be totally hidden. Don't like the B Pillars, when doing a right turn it can be in the way. And reversing sucks. Also hate how the mirrors are designed. I've been in worse, I don't think the Focus Sedan is any worse then any other newer car. But compared to my old car its a big change.
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
You have to be joking. That is one of the worst automotive designs I've ever seen, if not one of the worst industrial designs. I'd be happy to point out everything that's wrong with it if you'd like.

And in the end, it's not Italian at all, it's a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
I can't help your blindness, Mr. Wonder. Maybe you can pray to Jesus for healing?

Like a Jeep, except for the power train, interior, electronics, and pretty much everything else except the sub-frame. Right.

Edit: You probably think this is ugly too.

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Nov 29, 2011, 02:56 AM
 


If you look in the left of the window on both cars (right sides of the cars) you can see what I mean about how big the pillars are. The Prelude you can see the suicide handle to gauge how big of a difference im working with.

You can also see and this is again a trend with most modern cars the upwards slow of the focus in the back which reduces visibility out side the back Window compared to the Prelude which is flat all the way back. I could look straight out of the back Window of the prelude and see everything. With the Focus I lose a lot. But these are not design faults of just the Focus so im not targeting the car as bad, this is just something all cars are doing now.

Oh I do actually have one gripe that does target the Focus, the F*ing windshield wipers. dam things open outwards and in heavy rain which in Vancouver is many months of the year it cuts out another couple inches of view on the edges of the windshield. First car I've seen with that design, and HATE IT. I really really hate it.
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Nov 29, 2011, 03:13 AM
 
mitsubishi wasn't present? subaru? My lancer has quite a bit of head room (I'm 6'1")
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 04:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I can't help your blindness, Mr. Wonder. Maybe you can pray to Jesus for healing?

Like a Jeep, except for the power train, interior, electronics, and pretty much everything else except the sub-frame. Right.

Edit: You probably think this is ugly too.

Don't know how much of the car will be Chrysler, but if it looks like that, I'm on Mitchell's team. To me- at least in that picture- like a moderately skilled auto design students notion of what a Maserati SUV would look like. Perhaps a relevant comparison to an actual car is the Saab 9-7. They took a Chevy Trailblazer and put little inconsequential design cues on it and called it a Saab.

Maserati, as proven by your picture above, can do better.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 05:05 AM
 
Subaru I may have seen, but it could have blended into my recollections of the other makes. Don't think I saw Mitsubishi. I'll have to put both on my list.

I noticed how think the pillars were in so many of these models, although I didn't know that's how they're described until now. The thick A pillars are the reason why it's so hard to get my head into these new fangled contraptions! Aargh.

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Nov 29, 2011, 06:15 AM
 
I'm surprised to hear about VW's reputation in the US as not stellar. In Europe they have (IMHO unjustified) a good reputation, so much so that the Passat and Golf hold their value well. The same goes for Audis like the A3 and A4.

While Doofy and Shaddim may mock, I'm looking at a Skoda Superb as my next car. Maybe even the Station Wagon/Estate version.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 06:40 AM
 
Anyone opinions on the Ford Escape?

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Nov 29, 2011, 06:48 AM
 
The reason that the ceiling keeps dropping is the same as the reason the windscreens are so angled: air resistance. Everyone has to get their gas consumption down, and reducing air resistance is a big part of that. Since I have some inside info, I can tell you that this process is not stopping any time soon. It shouldn't be that they will be so low that you can't get in to them, however. I'm 6'2", and I've driven just about every car available as a rental in Europe over the last few years. I can always set them so I can sit comfortably in the front. Only cars I ever had a problem in the front were convertibles. The rear is another story - I frequently hit the ceiling - but the Volvo V60 my parents have is fine in the back as well. Even my father, who is 6'7", can fit in the rear.

What are your complaints about the instrumentation in the Volvo? I know the guy who is responsible for developing them, I'd love to bring it up with him.
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Nov 29, 2011, 10:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I can't help your blindness, Mr. Wonder. Maybe you can pray to Jesus for healing?

Like a Jeep, except for the power train, interior, electronics, and pretty much everything else except the sub-frame. Right.

Edit: You probably think this is ugly too.

Nope. The Quattroporte is an excellent design because it's obviously a Maserati. The Cinqueporte (aka Kubang) doesn't even get the most signature part of Maserati's design correct: The grill and the portals on the side aren't the same as the grille on the rest of Maserati's lineup. And the rest of the car is incredibly generic. The lines flow well for the most part, but there aren't any flourishes to set it apart as a Maserati, especially when you look at the Quattroporte and the newest members of the Gran Tourismo family. If this were a Ford or a Mazda, it'd be fine, but there is nothing here that screams performance, luxury, or Italian. The strength of other Maseratis, especially the Quattroporte, is that they look like no other car in their class. The Cinqueporte just blends in with all the Porsche, Infiniti, Audi, Mercedes, etc "performance SUV" wannabes.

I'm surprised that as an owner of a 2008 Gallardo Spyder you think this is a great design. The Gallardo Spyder was one of the cleanest designs to come out of pininfarina, and really any Italian agency for a long time. This looks more committee designed to me.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
I'm surprised to hear about VW's reputation in the US as not stellar. In Europe they have (IMHO unjustified) a good reputation, so much so that the Passat and Golf hold their value well. The same goes for Audis like the A3 and A4.

While Doofy and Shaddim may mock, I'm looking at a Skoda Superb as my next car. Maybe even the Station Wagon/Estate version.
They have a bad reputation among many in the US, yet their sales are eclipsing anyone else's.

The Superb is a great car. Very highly rated.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:48 PM
 
B, did you look at the 2011 model or the 2012 model Escape?

Ford's latest Escape - completely redesigned - Radical redesign (1) - CNNMoney
Ford's latest Escape - completely redesigned - Recycled materials (2) - CNNMoney
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/..._escape/3.html hehe kick open rear gate, nice idea

I have yet to see the 2012 in person but if its anything like the difference between the 2011 and 2012 Focus, you shouldn't be disappointed.
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
While Doofy and Shaddim may mock, I'm looking at a Skoda Superb as my next car. Maybe even the Station Wagon/Estate version.
Skodas are good honest cars. I like 'em.
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Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:52 PM
 
I saw they're popular in Israel. Cool to see that they're so well regarded. Too bad in the US we now get Fiat again, which I see little redeeming value to, but we'll never have Skoda.
Originally Posted by P View Post
What are your complaints about the instrumentation in the Volvo? I know the guy who is responsible for developing them, I'd love to bring it up with him.
It's a small detail sort of gripe, but sometimes the small details count, especially when there's so much competition. I don't know what model we were in, but in the section of the (edit) tachometer, there was a prominent bitmap white STOP with a crude bitmap circle around it. It looked like a computer display from a futuristic 1980s car. I think it was showing that you have to depress the brake before starting the car, but it just looked really pathetically unprofessional. At first, when my brother pointed it out to me, I thought it was trivial, but then we got into another make and its digital instrumentation panel was also showing-but this car had very nice, sleek digital graphics; I said to myself, "yeah, that Volvo display really would get on my nerves."

Again it's a minor thing, and I don't mean to defame your national auto brand, which is very well respected albeit staid.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Nov 29, 2011 at 05:20 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 02:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Porsche is crap*. Go Italian or go home.
I see no reason why a man of taste shouldn't acquire one of each for his garage.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
But you're thinking, there is no fast Italian SUV to compete with the Cayenne... and there you'd be wrong.
Sorry dude but I gotta go with Mitch on this one. It looks like a generic box with a Maser "corporate front" on it. Now if you'd have said "Lamborghini LM002" I'd be nodding furiously.

And anyway, two words...

Gemballa Tornado.

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Nov 29, 2011, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Again it's a minor thing, and I don't mean to defame your national auto brand, which is very well respected albeit staid.
No problem, I was just interested in why since I work in the business. Do you know which model it was?
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 29, 2011, 03:12 PM
 
Not off-hand, sorry. Most likely the entry level sedan, whichever model that would be.

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is not
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Nov 29, 2011, 04:38 PM
 
The Quattroporte is ugly and outdated, the aero is worse than a plank, the auto gearbox is sh*t, the engines, average.
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 04:48 PM
 
I forgot to mention the quality ride, mostly because is forgettable
     
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Nov 29, 2011, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Not off-hand, sorry. Most likely the entry level sedan, whichever model that would be.
S40



S60

     
Big Mac  (op)
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Nov 29, 2011, 05:17 PM
 
Thank you, it was apparently the S60. Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of it because it's a really small aspect of the car, but I think at least some would agree that it's visually mediocre if they were to see that STOP icon.

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Nov 29, 2011, 05:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by is not View Post
The Quattroporte is ugly and outdated, the aero is worse than a plank, the auto gearbox is sh*t, the engines, average.
Great, first we had Stevie and now we have Ray Charles.

You're right, it's so outdated. I guess it's like this one:



Hurry, someone throw a tarp over it before I hurl. While you're at it, ship it to me and I'll take one for the whole team. Damned hideous thing.
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imitchellg5
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Nov 30, 2011, 01:12 AM
 
The Quattroporte is a pretty old design for a car still being sold, considering it first appeared in 2003. Some competitors have undergone two generations since then (Audi A8 comes to mind). Luckily it's been subtly refined over the past 8 years and has aged well, though sales are pretty much non-existant these days (only 1,400 worldwide in 2010, compared to nearly 4,000 Gran Tourismos).

I'm having trouble thinking of a car that's gone without a complete redesign longer than the Quattroporte actually.

Maserati need to start making money soon. They're the lowest returning member of the Fiat family. For them, the Cinqueporte is a cheap and easy way to enter a very profitable market. It'll likely sell like crazy in Europe, but it's a quick solution to the problem, rather than a product that holds up to the values of Maserati as a brand.
     
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Nov 30, 2011, 05:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
The Quattroporte is a pretty old design for a car still being sold, considering it first appeared in 2003. Some competitors have undergone two generations since then (Audi A8 comes to mind). Luckily it's been subtly refined over the past 8 years and has aged well, though sales are pretty much non-existant these days (only 1,400 worldwide in 2010, compared to nearly 4,000 Gran Tourismos).
People who're in the market for a Maser don't care about what the ADHD-riddled masses want, or what everyone else is driving. They only care about beauty and soul.
As far as buying goes, Masers are in the supercar class... ...and 1,400 sales in a single year in that class is really pushing the boat out.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I'm having trouble thinking of a car that's gone without a complete redesign longer than the Quattroporte actually.
Well, some of your Morgans haven't had a redesign since Noah parked one in his ark.
And let's face it, the Landy Defender isn't exactly a new design.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
For them, the Cinqueporte is a cheap and easy way to enter a very profitable market. It'll likely sell like crazy in Europe
No it won't. It's a very US-ish design. Everyone here will simply buy a Cayenne or Range Rover instead.

All this "redesigned last week" doesn't really cut if for people with means over here. I know everything breaks or gets blown away every month in the US, but over here a lot of us live in buildings older than your country, and some of us live in buildings which were around when the year was still in triple digits. That's how we roll.
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Nov 30, 2011, 08:00 AM
 
I'm getting into this a little late, so pardon the throw-back question. What about the Hondas was "drab?" I'm not a fan of the 2012 styling, but I haven't looked into their interiors too much. And while I'm not planning to replace my 2007 Civic sedan, I do like to keep up with what the latest generation of Civics is like...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
 
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