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The OmniWeb 5 Public Beta thread. (Page 16)
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Macanoid
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Jun 16, 2004, 02:46 PM
 
what kind of speed increase can we expect to see between this version and the final? I've become quite addicted to the OW5 GUI, but I must say the speed of Firefox .9 is very impressive as well.
     
BZ
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Jun 16, 2004, 02:50 PM
 
Just a guess but...

Probably not much. A few tweaks etc here and there.

The next big increase will come in 5.1 which will include the new webcore and another set of tweaks.

I think the only way OmniWeb will overtake Safari/Firebird is on a dual processor where it has better threading.

BZ

Originally posted by Macanoid:
what kind of speed increase can we expect to see between this version and the final? I've become quite addicted to the OW5 GUI, but I must say the speed of Firefox .9 is very impressive as well.
     
Macanoid
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Jun 16, 2004, 02:57 PM
 
sorry to hear that but thanks a lot for the explanation!
     
BZ
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Jun 16, 2004, 04:32 PM
 
I think OmniGroup can get OmniWeb up to Safari levels of speed (which is pretty damn good) on a single proc and probably beat them on a dual.

FireFox is so light that it might always beat both Safari and OminWeb.

BZ

Originally posted by Macanoid:
sorry to hear that but thanks a lot for the explanation!
     
Mike S.
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Jun 16, 2004, 06:22 PM
 
I wouldn't expect great strides in OmniWeb's render performance even after the change over in 5.1.

I love OmniWeb and use it despite it's performance but the thing clearly requires more CPU power than it's main competitors because on this G3/400 it's something like 3 times slower than the fastest browser (Camino); on a G4 eMac it's still the slowest but by a much smaller margin. The latest OW 5 beta on the eMac renders roughly equivalent to the fastest browser running on the G3/400.

I'd post my numbers here but it didn't go over so well the last time I did it though I did change my methods this time around. Tested from the LAN vs. from the web, factored in disk cache performance and averaged the scores over four loads. It still wouldn't be considered scientific by any measure but that isn't the point, they're only meant to show me where the various browsers stand relative to each other and I'm confident that they do that accurately.

I don't know why OW is so much heavier, maybe all the threading is murder on older/slower CPUs?
     
cpac
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Jun 16, 2004, 06:38 PM
 
OW's coming along by leaps and bounds - if you haven't used it since 4.2 or earlier, you're in for a huge surprise. Also, just since nobody's mentioned it recently, the omnifolks (Tim2?) mentioned that integration of the latest webcore was going quite well, at least initially, and that 5.1 shouldn't be too far behind 5.0 final, plus there's the recently added new text renderer that vastly speeds up some pages like these forums that have tons of text.

That said, on my TiBook 500, OW's speed is so close to the speed of other browsers (Camino, Firefox, Safari, etc.) that I rarely notice the speed difference when switching between them.

Since the speed differences these days are so small, you ought to be looking to more than just mere speed in making a browser selection, and this is where OW really shines....
cpac
     
TheIceMan
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Jun 16, 2004, 06:46 PM
 
Sorry to ask again, but for those using Gmail, are you guys having trouble using Gmail with OmniWeb? I can't seem to get Gmail to work using OW. But it does ok (sometimes stuck) on Safari.
     
nickm
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Jun 16, 2004, 11:25 PM
 
the thing clearly requires more CPU power than it's main competitors because on this G3/400 it's something like 3 times slower than the fastest browser
I can't affirm or deny that, but even if it is true I find that I'm so much more productive* in Omniweb. The shortcuts and search features help me get back to page I remember seeing quicker. The scalable text boxes help with forum postings, and I'm not always resizing my text and adjusting my preferences based on the site that I'm at. So, even if I wait a little longer for the page, the frustration just isn't there.

* Ok, I'm much more unproductive in Omniweb, since most of my web browsing is goofing off!
     
Mike S.
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Jun 17, 2004, 12:26 AM
 
I'm not selling OmniWeb short, it's a great product, but the fact remains that it's incredibly underperforming at page renders on my hardware compared to all others.

It's much faster on more modern hardware but it's still not as quick as Safari or Camino and for others that I talk with that alone is enough to keep them using one of the others despite me constantly being a shill for Omni ;-)

I love the product, I bought a license and am using it right now on the G3 but that's not going to stop me from speaking up about it's speed when the topic arises. Three times slower is not insignificant...
     
juanvaldes
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Jun 17, 2004, 12:47 AM
 
Originally posted by TheIceMan:
Sorry to ask again, but for those using Gmail, are you guys having trouble using Gmail with OmniWeb? I can't seem to get Gmail to work using OW. But it does ok (sometimes stuck) on Safari.
can't with OW because it is using the older version of webcore.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive.
- Thomas Jefferson, 1787
     
TheIceMan
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Jun 17, 2004, 03:08 AM
 
Yeah, I saw that when I tried the site preferences. Even getting OW to identify itself as Netscape or IE doesn't work.
     
cpac
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Jun 18, 2004, 10:35 PM
 
b8 is out.

has some nice fixes...

though it seems it still has problems loading orbitz.com - page spinner goes forever, page icon never loads, and crashes soon follow...
( Last edited by cpac; Jun 18, 2004 at 10:44 PM. )
cpac
     
BZ
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Jun 19, 2004, 05:55 AM
 
I don't know if it is just beta-itis, but b8 seems faster (and I went to more than a few sites) than b7.

Speed is good.

Still won't load some favicons (like http://forums.macnn.com) ut I now think it is a cache issue.

BZ

Originally posted by cpac:
b8 is out.

has some nice fixes...

though it seems it still has problems loading orbitz.com - page spinner goes forever, page icon never loads, and crashes soon follow...
( Last edited by BZ; Jun 19, 2004 at 08:44 AM. )
     
cpac
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Jun 19, 2004, 09:35 AM
 
Originally posted by BZ:

Still won't load some favicons (like http://forums.macnn.com) ut I now think it is a cache issue.

Yep - it's a good idea to delete you cache before launching the new version. For me it now loads almost all the page icons that it didn't before (and for me, it *always* loaded the page icon for these forums...) - the single exception I've encountered so far being the Orbitz page....

I'd delete you cache and relaunch and see if that doesn't fix everything. (I usually notice a speed bump after deleting the cache too, which is counter-intuitive, but hey...)
cpac
     
BZ
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Jun 19, 2004, 11:17 AM
 
Worked like a charm. Now loading all favicons.

OmniGuys: You might want to build a feature in your bookmarks to force the reload of a favicon.

BZ

Originally posted by cpac:
Yep - it's a good idea to delete you cache before launching the new version. For me it now loads almost all the page icons that it didn't before (and for me, it *always* loaded the page icon for these forums...) - the single exception I've encountered so far being the Orbitz page....

I'd delete you cache and relaunch and see if that doesn't fix everything. (I usually notice a speed bump after deleting the cache too, which is counter-intuitive, but hey...)
     
F_Elz
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Jun 19, 2004, 10:48 PM
 
Bookmarks are screwed up, I just have favorites, but no bookmarks.html file, so I cannot add them to my bookmarks (not my fav. bar..)
     
pliny
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Jun 20, 2004, 09:13 AM
 
b8 is excellent.

The speed is definitely improved over the last one I was using (b6) and everything is smooth and working as advertised.
i look in your general direction
     
Macanoid
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Jun 20, 2004, 09:25 AM
 
Having just switched to OW% full time I have notice the following:

Flash is a lot slower than in Safari. Plus when using Safari I can copy/past a website (inclusing images) in Mail. This just doesn't seem to work with OW5.

I'm on a Cube 1.2 GHZ btw.
     
typ993
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Jun 20, 2004, 03:04 PM
 
Wow! Noticeable increase in speed coming from b7. Keep it up, OW!
     
mbotta
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Jun 21, 2004, 04:04 AM
 
Just to chime in with you guys: OW5 is a great browser! Yesterday I decided to show my appreciation and send them money for a licence. Keep up the good work, Omnigroup!

mbotta
     
JKT  (op)
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Jun 21, 2004, 05:01 AM
 
Originally posted by F_Elz:
Bookmarks are screwed up, I just have favorites, but no bookmarks.html file, so I cannot add them to my bookmarks (not my fav. bar..)
Delete the Groups.plist in your ~/Library/Application Support/OmniWeb 5 folder - this will revert the sidebar to its default (if that is what you meant about not having any bookmarks).

Edit: I guess this is something else as there are a few people reporting similar issues on the OmniWeb mailing list. I hope you backed up your bookmarks before using the new beta
( Last edited by JKT; Jun 21, 2004 at 05:09 AM. )
     
F_Elz
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Jun 22, 2004, 03:28 AM
 
Yea, I deleted the folder in in my Library. Then I got the bookmarks.
     
PC switcher 069
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Jun 23, 2004, 08:59 AM
 
it is good? paying for omniweb browser is fair?
I just love Forums...
     
iNeusch
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Jun 23, 2004, 09:02 AM
 
Originally posted by PC switcher 069:
it is good? paying for omniweb browser is fair?
it is
     
cpac
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Jun 23, 2004, 02:47 PM
 
Originally posted by PC switcher 069:
it is good? paying for omniweb browser is fair?
it's very good.

But don't take our word for it - you can download and use a demo free for 30 days or something.
cpac
     
F_Elz
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Jun 23, 2004, 03:47 PM
 
Seems I am going to buy OW5, but I would love to see the choppy loading behaviour fixed.
     
cpac
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Jun 23, 2004, 05:00 PM
 
Originally posted by F_Elz:
Seems I am going to buy OW5, but I would love to see the choppy loading behaviour fixed.
you might want to play with the preferences in the "Display" category - the one for drawing image placeholders while loading at the very least helps, and I'm not sure if the "start drawing page before entirely loaded" option is functional (it was originally broken in 5.0), but if it's not, you can probably avoid much chopiness by telling OW to wait...
cpac
     
F_Elz
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Jun 24, 2004, 05:51 AM
 
Can't view Gmal :[
     
JKT  (op)
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Jun 24, 2004, 07:45 AM
 
You'll have to wait for 5.1 (which is due to be released soon after 5.0 goes final) before GMail will work - it needs the latest Safari engine to be incorporated.
     
cpac
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Jun 24, 2004, 07:45 AM
 
Originally posted by F_Elz:
Can't view Gmal :[
well not until they update webcore anyway, but that shouldn't be too far behind 5.0....
cpac
     
F_Elz
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Jun 24, 2004, 07:49 AM
 
Oh I see...
     
zepkin
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Jun 25, 2004, 02:11 PM
 
I emailed Omni about this, but haven't gotten a response. Since updating, my bookmark categories have disappeared, which makes it such that I can't use bookmarks at all. I tried trashing all OmniWeb stuff and restarting, but they are still gone. The bookmarks show up on the favorites bar and in the bookmark menu, but they don't show up on the bookmarks page since the categories are missing. Any ideas?
     
cpac
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:10 PM
 
Originally posted by zepkin:
I emailed Omni about this, but haven't gotten a response. Since updating, my bookmark categories have disappeared, which makes it such that I can't use bookmarks at all. I tried trashing all OmniWeb stuff and restarting, but they are still gone. The bookmarks show up on the favorites bar and in the bookmark menu, but they don't show up on the bookmarks page since the categories are missing. Any ideas?
yep.

Quit OW and try deleting the Groups.plist file in your
~/Library/Application Support/OmniWeb 5 folder. When you relaunch, the
bookmarks sidebar should have reverted to the default.

Some people on the mailing list have reported that it took a quit/relaunch or two for this to properly take effect, (though maybe they forgot to quit before they trashed).

Give it a shot.
cpac
     
zepkin
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:36 PM
 
Originally posted by cpac:
yep.

Quit OW and try deleting the Groups.plist file in your
~/Library/Application Support/OmniWeb 5 folder. When you relaunch, the
bookmarks sidebar should have reverted to the default.

Some people on the mailing list have reported that it took a quit/relaunch or two for this to properly take effect, (though maybe they forgot to quit before they trashed).

Give it a shot.
Weird..I have deleted everything in ~/Library/Application Support/Omniweb 5 and now I don't have a Groups.plist file. No matter how many times I quite and restart, this file isn't showing up...
     
zepkin
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Jun 25, 2004, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by zepkin:
Weird..I have deleted everything in ~/Library/Application Support/Omniweb 5 and now I don't have a Groups.plist file. No matter how many times I quite and restart, this file isn't showing up...
I just grabbed Groups.plist from backup and it is working now. Looks like the latest beta is not generating this file on launch...hmmm...
     
F_Elz
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:14 PM
 
I had to use beta7 to get the file
     
oVeRmInD911
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Jun 25, 2004, 11:17 PM
 
I'd just like to say that beta 8 has been really solid for me.

Good work.
     
F_Elz
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Jun 26, 2004, 12:47 AM
 
Yea, kinda stable.
     
BZ
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Jun 28, 2004, 04:19 PM
 
OmniDudes!!! (I am sure at least one of you is at the WWDC).

Looks like Apple is opening up the SDK for iSync.. Can you say .Mac iSync of Omni Bookmarks/Preferences? I can! (I know, I know, it works now, but I want it all in my iSync).

Back to code.

BZ
     
Rickster
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Jun 28, 2004, 06:35 PM
 
Ken's the only one at the conference this year (say hi if you see him!). The rest of us are... patiently waiting for him to send those Tiger discs back to Seattle.

All I've seen is the public info on Apple's site, but based on that... yeah, .Mac syncing of OmniWeb info sounds possible. (Whether or when you might see it, it's too early to say.) As do a lot of other exciting ideas.
Rick Roe
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Spirit_VW
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Jun 28, 2004, 10:08 PM
 
Any chance somebody could upload a Groups.plist backup somewhere so those of us who've lost their disk images for older betas could use Beta 8 properly? Pretty please?
Kevin Buchanan
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Renault
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Jul 5, 2004, 02:02 AM
 
I'm sorry but the Groups.plist reflect my bookmarks so it won't be useful for you. Maybe you have an old backup that you could use?
     
flysky
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Jul 5, 2004, 01:53 PM
 
Originally posted by flysky:
I just noticed that b7 allows ICeCoffEE to access the contextual menu. Finally, Services in the CM. Thanks, guys!
It stopped working in b8. Any chance of getting it back in the final version?
     
BZ
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Jul 8, 2004, 06:10 PM
 
Hey OmniDudes...

A wanted feature for 5.2...

Compatibility with Mozilla's extensions..

http://www.wired.com/news/infostruct...w=wn_1techhead

BZ
     
cpac
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Jul 8, 2004, 08:15 PM
 
Originally posted by BZ:
Hey OmniDudes...

A wanted feature for 5.2...

Compatibility with Mozilla's extensions..

Isn't that dependent on using gecko? - and on building in whatever part of gecko allows for extensibility? (i.e. whatever makes FireFox different than Camino?)
cpac
     
Rickster
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Jul 9, 2004, 04:06 AM
 
Mozilla's Extensions aren't extensions to the Gecko engine, they're extensions to the browser application. So, compatibility with them basically means writing a Mozilla clone... not gonna happen.

The good news? Many of the more popular Mozilla/Firefox extensions provide functionality which is already present in some for in OW5, is on the docket for a future OW update, or may be released in a future Omni Addon. Just to cover a few from the Wired article:
  • A "Save Linked" feature has been in OmniWeb since the Rhapsody days. Additional improvements to it have long been planned but were dropped from the 5.0 schedule... perhaps they'll resurface in 5.x.
  • We've been working on intelligent detection of pages which are in a series (e.g. photo galleries, multi-page articles with prev/next links)... currently you can press Enter (not Return) as a shortcut to jump to the next page in the series. We don't always detect series, but that's getting better over time.
  • Many search-related extensions (google bars, etc) have equivalent functionality via OmniWeb's Shortcuts feature and optional toolbar search field.
  • OmniWeb already has a full-featured download manager. I don't think I've ever seen requests for an option to put it in a tab instead of a separate window, but we'll look into that if people ask for it.
  • RSS reading is built in.
  • We don't have an automatic gateway to BugMeNot.com, but we can remember passwords once they've been used once. I've already been looking into an Addon to provide automatic BugMeNot lookup.
  • Several other possibilities are available through OmniWeb's AppleScript support (and convenient Scripts menu).

And of course, we're always looking at ways to improve OmniWeb -- if there's something specific you'd like to see, tell us at[email protected].
Rick Roe
icons.cx | weblog
     
BZ
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Jul 9, 2004, 08:25 AM
 
All very true.

Don't get me wrong, OW is the most feature-rich browser out there. I just thought the idea of plugins was a great one. The one I really liked was BugMeNot, which turns out not to be as cool as it looked. It does not auto fill, it just suggests after you ask it to.

As for wanted features:

- I would like a CM to "Save selected linked images/documents". Right now under the menu it is all or nothing, I would like to be able to select half of the linked images on a page and just save/download those.

- Steal Safari RSS integration. The article sizing. The previews, the searching, all of it. Just rip it off and make it better. OmniStyle.

- Steal the private browsing but make it one better. Add security to Workspaces so I can have them password protected. Lets say I want my "Bank" workspace to never allow anyone in unless they type in a password. Use the keychain of course. Have it also timeout. There is a nice feature like this (kinda) in Mozilla 1.7

- Add a key command to jump between two tabs. I use this ALL the time and having to use the mouse just sucks.

- Add a CM for bookmarks called "Reload Favicon" that will try to get it again.

- Add a mini-custom editor to the edit boxes so I could quickly throw in HTML tages (take a look at Epoz http://mjablonski.zope.de/Epoz ) With all the new bloggers out there, this would be great.

- Add a key command to stop all loading (might be there, but I am at work on Mozilla 1.8a1)

- Add an option to see elpased time or status at the bottom of a page for 1) How long it took to download the page. 2) How many objects. 3) how many js. 4) How many CSS. 5) How big the entire page was. Actually, if you could just integrate the features of Tyrantula X (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/13145) which has a ton of great features, but has been totally dropped. These are things that Webmasters (the one who will pay for a browser) just love like word count, char count, etc. If you combined the stuff in Tyrantula X and the status stuff in Opera, it would be killer.

- Make sure that OW bookmarks show up in Spotlight in 10.4.

- Add sycning of preferences/bookmarks via iSync for 10.4. Hell, iSync bookmarks onto the iPod and beat Apple to it.

Oh, and there is a bug in the bookmarks that I can't seem to figure out. When I am on a "Semi-Smart folder" and I click to another like History or Personal Bookmarks, OW goes into a spin when I have to force quit it.

Keep up the amazing work. I try almost every browser out there on a ton of different platfroms and OW5 is still what I keep coming back to.

Do I need to email this in?

BZ



Originally posted by Rickster:
Mozilla's Extensions aren't extensions to the Gecko engine, they're extensions to the browser application. So, compatibility with them basically means writing a Mozilla clone... not gonna happen.

The good news? Many of the more popular Mozilla/Firefox extensions provide functionality which is already present in some for in OW5, is on the docket for a future OW update, or may be released in a future Omni Addon. Just to cover a few from the Wired article:
  • A "Save Linked" feature has been in OmniWeb since the Rhapsody days. Additional improvements to it have long been planned but were dropped from the 5.0 schedule... perhaps they'll resurface in 5.x.
  • We've been working on intelligent detection of pages which are in a series (e.g. photo galleries, multi-page articles with prev/next links)... currently you can press Enter (not Return) as a shortcut to jump to the next page in the series. We don't always detect series, but that's getting better over time.
  • Many search-related extensions (google bars, etc) have equivalent functionality via OmniWeb's Shortcuts feature and optional toolbar search field.
  • OmniWeb already has a full-featured download manager. I don't think I've ever seen requests for an option to put it in a tab instead of a separate window, but we'll look into that if people ask for it.
  • RSS reading is built in.
  • We don't have an automatic gateway to BugMeNot.com, but we can remember passwords once they've been used once. I've already been looking into an Addon to provide automatic BugMeNot lookup.
  • Several other possibilities are available through OmniWeb's AppleScript support (and convenient Scripts menu).

And of course, we're always looking at ways to improve OmniWeb -- if there's something specific you'd like to see, tell us at[email protected].
     
cpac
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Jul 9, 2004, 08:35 AM
 
Originally posted by BZ:
- Add a key command to jump between two tabs. I use this ALL the time and having to use the mouse just sucks.

- Add a key command to stop all loading (might be there, but I am at work on Mozilla 1.8a1)
command-up arrow and command-down arrow move between tabs, command-. stops loading.


- Make sure that OW bookmarks show up in Spotlight in 10.4.

- Add sycning of preferences/bookmarks via iSync for 10.4. Hell, iSync bookmarks onto the iPod and beat Apple to it.
I'm sure this sort of stuff is coming, but since 10.4 isn't expected until next year...

PS you can already set up bookmark syncing using an iDisk or other webDAV server.
cpac
     
JKT  (op)
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Jul 9, 2004, 09:29 AM
 
Originally posted by cpac:
command-up arrow and command-down arrow move between tabs, command-. stops loading.
I'm assuming that BZ means to stop loading in all open tabs/windows rather than just the one currently in view.
( Last edited by JKT; Jul 9, 2004 at 09:39 AM. )
     
BZ
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Join Date: Apr 2001
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Jul 9, 2004, 09:45 AM
 
- Moving between tabs is fine, but if you have 10 tabs open, and you are working on tab 2 and 6 it would nice to be able to jump between the two.

- I would like a key command to stop ALL tabs from loading (like when you hit "load in all tabs" by mistake or when it starts up after a crash)

- I have the bookmark syncing working with iDisk and it is great but now that the SDK is open, it would be nice to have it as an option.

BZ

Originally posted by cpac:
command-up arrow and command-down arrow move between tabs, command-. stops loading.

I'm sure this sort of stuff is coming, but since 10.4 isn't expected until next year...

PS you can already set up bookmark syncing using an iDisk or other webDAV server.
     
 
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