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The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
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It's so dusty, I'm a little surprised to see it used to knock someone into next week.
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Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status:
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
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Shaddim got a week in the hole.
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Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status:
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
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This I do not have an answer to, and was figuring the mods would fill us in.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Status:
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Well somewhat surprisingly (I don't think) it had anything to do with me.
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
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What happened is quite straightforward, really: There were a number of reports about Shaddim's behavior in the PL. After some deliberations, we issued several infractions. Because the sum total of points exceeded the limit, Shaddim was automatically temp banned.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status:
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I was wondering where he went. I don't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary from him in recent days prior to his departure...
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 888500128, C3, 2nd soft.
Status:
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I was debating whether to have my (voluntary) ban from the Poli Lounge lifted...I probably shouldn't.
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
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Nah, feel free to try it again. If you insist, we'll reinstate your PL ban.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status:
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For subego:
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status:
Offline
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Also for Subego (doesn't really have much to do with this thread, but I thought he would enjoy it):
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
What happened is quite straightforward, really: There were a number of reports about Shaddim's behavior in the PL. After some deliberations, we issued several infractions. Because the sum total of points exceeded the limit, Shaddim was automatically temp banned.
Was there any warning, or did he suddenly get hit with the total pile of infractions?
If the individual complaints were minor, a shorter ban would have made the point.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status:
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Believe it or not, not one of those complaints or reports came from me.
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I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
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Originally Posted by besson3c
Also for Subego (doesn't really have much to do with this thread, but I thought he would enjoy it):
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status:
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That's actually the picture I was trying to find, subego! It is really comforting knowing that there is somebody else my age-ish with the maturity level of a 15 year old
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status:
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We need an animated meme.
For AntiFa and friends.
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45/47
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
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The rotoscoping gives it an ironic Ralph Bakshi feel.
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
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Originally Posted by subego
Was there any warning, or did he suddenly get hit with the total pile of infractions?
If the individual complaints were minor, a shorter ban would have made the point.
In our judgement the complaints were not minor, otherwise we would have opted to issue warnings instead. The ban period is a default we have chosen a long time ago if the ban is triggered by the infraction point count. Shaddim is a long-time member of the forum with a history, he knows the rules and it is not his first rodeo. In this instance, we decided to aggregate the discussion of the various abuse reports and to “measure twice and cut once” (i. e. reacting to all of them after we had made up our minds). So on Shaddim's end it may seem as if we “piled on”, but that wasn't the case.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by subego
The rotoscoping gives it an ironic Ralph Bakshi feel.
Daffy?
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45/47
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
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Not of Daffy himself, but his target.
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status:
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Originally Posted by subego
Not of Daffy himself, but his target.
thhhhhat's what meant.
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45/47
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
In our judgement the complaints were not minor, otherwise we would have opted to issue warnings instead. The ban period is a default we have chosen a long time ago if the ban is triggered by the infraction point count. Shaddim is a long-time member of the forum with a history, he knows the rules and it is not his first rodeo. In this instance, we decided to aggregate the discussion of the various abuse reports and to “measure twice and cut once” (i. e. reacting to all of them after we had made up our minds). So on Shaddim's end it may seem as if we “piled on”, but that wasn't the case.
I could be completely off, but my perception are things have gotten at least slightly more freewheeling since NN proper died, and as I said it's been ages since I've seen the ban counter. I can't remember the last time it happened.
If the first thing reported/seen is worth tagging him for a week, then there's nothing which can be done other than tagging him for a week.
If that first infraction wasn't worth a week, and he got a week because he piled up other infractions while the first one was being deliberated on, that seems at least a little unfair when matched with my (perhaps incorrect) perception things have been more hands-off than in the past. He very well may have reeled it in before the hole got so deep.
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by subego
I could be completely off, but my perception are things have gotten at least slightly more freewheeling since NN proper died, and as I said it's been ages since I've seen the ban counter. I can't remember the last time it happened.
I haven't seen any figures, but traffic has come down — after all, how are you going to find these forums if you don't already know about them? So naturally, temp bans have become more rare of a thing.
Originally Posted by subego
If that first infraction wasn't worth a week, and he got a week because he piled up other infractions while the first one was being deliberated on, that seems at least a little unfair when matched with my (perhaps incorrect) perception things have been more hands-off than in the past. He very well may have reeled it in before the hole got so deep.
We have just applied the points system as it has existed for many years: different infractions have different point scores. Active infraction points have a finite shelf life, and they become inactive after some period. If you cross a certain threshold, you are banned until you drop below the threshold — in this case, one week. We could manually adjust the ban period, but we have been using the point system consistently for the last few years. From experience, a one-week ban is practically the minimum temp ban duration. If we want to lengthen the vacation we give to an offending member, we would adjust the ban period manually. On rare occasions we block people just from the PL, but we haven't done that in a while.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status:
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I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.
The point of the infraction system is that a user knows infractions that are coming in and can temper behavior to cool off before the infraction count gets too high. It's like your bank gathering a whole bunch of charges over time and sitting on them, then processing them all at once to ensure the account goes overdrawn. If the charges came in one by one, spending could be halted in time.
Or it's a leftist conspiracy by the liberal SJW mods.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Status:
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My bank actually does that. Bastards.
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I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
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Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status:
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Originally Posted by Laminar
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.
The point of the infraction system is that a user knows infractions that are coming in and can temper behavior to cool off before the infraction count gets too high. It's like your bank gathering a whole bunch of charges over time and sitting on them, then processing them all at once to ensure the account goes overdrawn. If the charges came in one by one, spending could be halted in time.
Or it's a leftist conspiracy by the liberal SJW mods.
yes that seems like a fair analysis
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Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status:
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Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep
My bank actually does that. Bastards.
All banks used to do this. When the daily charges came in, they were sorted and processed from biggest to smallest. So if you hit an overdraw, they'd get as many overdraft penalties as possible.
I don't know if it's still this way. Paper checks are converted to electronic drafts, which mostly seem to get processed in real time. But in the past, they most definitely were after those penalties.
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Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by reader50
All banks used to do this. When the daily charges came in, they were sorted and processed from biggest to smallest. So if you hit an overdraw, they'd get as many overdraft penalties as possible.
I don't know if it's still this way. Paper checks are converted to electronic drafts, which mostly seem to get processed in real time. But in the past, they most definitely were after those penalties.
After Wells Fargo took over First Interstate, the State of Arizona would not take WF checks for that very reason.
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45/47
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Originally Posted by Laminar
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.
The point of the infraction system is that a user knows infractions that are coming in and can temper behavior to cool off before the infraction count gets too high. It's like your bank gathering a whole bunch of charges over time and sitting on them, then processing them all at once to ensure the account goes overdrawn. If the charges came in one by one, spending could be halted in time.
This is correct.
As luck would have it just got an infraction to remind me of the process.
I made a shitpost at about noon yesterday, within 24 hours I got dinged. I now know if I keep shitposting, I'm engaging in unacceptable behavior.
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Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Antonio TX USA
Status:
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While it's possible to rack up a bunch of points pretty quickly, and "suddenly" find yourself banned, in this case it was not "quick" at all. "Warnings" in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban.
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Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by Laminar
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.
Shaddim is no spring chicken, and has been warned in the past. The system worked exactly as intended, and if we had wanted to, we would have issued warnings rather than infractions.
Originally Posted by Laminar
Or it's a leftist conspiracy by the liberal SJW mods.
We have always had these accusations regularly in the past, even when we had more (active) conservative mods taking care of the PL. The offended member would usually assume that it was this one liberal mod who went rogue and had it out for them, and “punished them” for their political opinions (rather than being a d*ck or trolling). Bans, especially manual bans are never, ever the action of a single person (sans spam, of course). Of course, even after so many years, the reprimanded (long-time) member often doesn't see it that way.
Since we introduced the infraction point system, things got a lot easier, because we no longer have to manually track which mod sent what to which member to cool things down. It was more subjective to issue temp bans and all that. You can see the number of past points and warning points, so that you immediately get an idea of how much trouble that member was in in the past.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Now I'll admit I'm totally confused.
Was he hit with infractions as abuse reports came in, or were they aggregated for the purposes of "measure twice, cut once"?
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by subego
Was he hit with infractions as abuse reports came in, or were they aggregated for the purposes of "measure twice, cut once"?
It is exactly as I wrote initially: we discussed the abuse reports in aggregate (as they were related) and then took action, temp banning Shaddim for a week.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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This is why I'm confused, because Glenn said,
"'Warnings' in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban."
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by subego
"'Warnings' in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban."
Glenn was speaking about how the infraction point system works in general: we can issue infractions and warnings, although you should be warned by the infractions and warnings you have received in the past. Receiving warnings will not increment your infraction point counter, but they are still tracked separately by the system (in the form of active warning points). That means if I issue 20 points worth of warnings, you will not be auto temp banned.
Depending on the type of infraction, the warning points become inactive after a set amount of time. That's useful for knowing how merciful to be: if you are a long-time member with a clean sheet and you post something you later regret on a bad hair day, it's likely we will either send you a pm or issue a warning. I have done this from time to time where I have sent messages to people who got wound up in a discussion, and most of them were courteous in how they replied (others less so).
However, if you have racked up a number of infraction points and warnings in the past, we are less inclined to let you off with a warning, especially if we deem that this behavior is standard of your MO. And of course, if you are someone who has racked up quite a few infractions and warnings, you should know that we will be more aggressive when it comes to the enforcement of forum rules (i. e. you have been warned). It's all pretty straight-forward really.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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I meant "warning" in the sense if I receive an infraction below the ban threshold, points or no, I've been "warned".
If I receive the infraction at the same time as a bunch of other infractions, enough so I get pushed over the total, I never got a chance to alter my behavior.
The latter strikes me as unfair, unless my transgressions are so rapid-fire it makes no sense to consider them as individual infractions.
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by subego
I meant "warning" in the sense if I receive an infraction below the ban threshold, points or no, I've been "warned".
It's a judgement call if a warning suffices or not, one made by us. We don't go running around issuing infractions willy nilly, and we give special leeway to discussions in the PL (and I try to be diligent that this doesn't spill over to the other sub forums).
Originally Posted by subego
The latter strikes me as unfair, unless my transgressions are so rapid-fire it makes no sense to consider them as individual infractions.
At the end of the day it is up to the staff to determine what is and isn't fair.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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At the end of the day it's up to the staff to run the forum. Most would hope this is done in a fair manner. If it is, the staff will be adjudicated by the members as having behaved as such. If not, they won't.
Again, the debate about the terminology is irrelevant. The question is whether users are given adequate opportunity to alter their behavior. Going from zero to ban does not offer this opportunity.
If this is what happened, I don't approve of it. I venture most don't.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status:
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I went back through recent posts of his and honestly didn't see anything specifically more antagonistic than usual. Then again, I remain pretty far out of the loop with what happens in the Forbidden City.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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As someone pretty deep in the P-hole, my perception is the same. I saw no difference in what's been happening for months. This is the source for my claim it seems sudden.
The last time I reported "the usual", the thread got locked, or some other similarly drastic measure (I forget the exact details). I've kept my mouth shut from that point forward.
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Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status:
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8 posts were deleted at the time, including replies.
4 Cap'n Tightpants (3 infractions, 2 on deleted posts)
3 besson3c (1 infraction on a deleted post)
1 Paco500 (removed for the quote - no foul)
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Useful information to know! Thank you!
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status:
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I lost track of how many were moved to the derailment thread.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot
I was debating whether to have my (voluntary) ban from the Poli Lounge lifted...I probably shouldn't.
The added viewpoint would be appreciated, but I ain't gonna lie, it's a slow-motion car crash.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
Status:
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Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Glenn was speaking about how the infraction point system works in general:
Doesn't sound like it.
Originally Posted by ghporter
in this case it was not "quick" at all.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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I'll start fresh.
If I were to look at the timestamps on the infraction list, would I go "it is obvious this person was given an opportunity to alter their behavior", or "it is unclear whether this person was given an opportunity to alter their behavior"?
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status:
Offline
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Originally Posted by Laminar
Doesn't sound like it.
Maybe I misunderstood what subego was getting at (who I thought asked something along the lines of “How can he be warned if he directly received infractions?”), but I thought he was confused about issuing warnings as opposed to infractions and being warned. That part is general and applies to all members, not just this specific situation.
If I misunderstood subego here, then yes, you're right, l was giving an answer to a different question.
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I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
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Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status:
Online
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I apologize for any semantic confusion caused by me using the wrong terminology.
What I'm trying to determine is the period of time over which the infractions in question were handed out. Was it a couple days? A couple minutes?
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Forum Rules
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