[hotani]

I already posted this in another topic but I thought it needed its own:

quit complaining about the design!! What other design could be any more efficient than the Ti? So what if the Vaio used it first. Actually it is not a design, it is necessity. If you want to have the thinnest, lightest, and yet most powerfull, big screen laptop, the 'cute' or 'sexy' curves have got to go!! Look at the iBook! this is the most inefficient laptop design there is. That thing should be about 3 full inches less wide, and at least .5 inches less thick - wasted space for the sake of cute curviness. Face it: curves do not match up with good laptop design!

look at cars for example: the old ford Taurus looked like the designer got drunk with a french curve and went crazy!!! cars do not look good like that because the curves diminish the natural form. Look at something more attractive like a VW Passat or Audi A4 - beautiful designs that accentuate the natural shape of the car. Same goes for the PowerBooks. Sure curves are different and 'cute', but I want to see an efficient yet attractive design and I think Ti has achieved this over any other laptop available.

Ti is very efficient I say again - Borg-like if you will. I like it!!



------------------
PowerBook G3 266/128
Darwin 1.2/OS X PB/OS 8.6
download free hotani web template

[Wattsy]

A dog turd is a very efficient shape. It doesn't mean that you have to like it.

[Avenir]

I think hotani is trying to say that you don't have to love it for it's efficent shape, but that you should realize that innefficent shapes are only good for looks. I agree with hotani that people are complaining far too much about style. I personally would have abhored a curvy, feminine looking powerbook to the new, sleek, professional laptop. I know the graphite iBook is impressive at meetings, but it's still a few tons too heavy. Cheers to Apple on their design, it's a damn good one.

[mr_sonicblue]

I do like the shape of my PowerBook G3, but I also love the Ti's looks. Just not for the same reasons.

Curves are nice (and impressive as far as PHYSICAL design) but I'd rather have the 1" figure instead.

------------------
-Eric Schneider (SonicBlue)

[hardcat1970]

no matter what apple does, complains from others keep on coming. pricing, design......etc. I don't know what do they want neither!

How come no one complains about the look of pc/window machines? Is it because they buy them at unbelievable price where apple's computer generally cost higher, so they have to complain at every angle of it?

[This message has been edited by hardcat1970 (edited 01-11-2001).]

[Powerbook-ish]

I'm not complaining about the shape so much as I'm unhappy that the reduced form factor has resulted in the loss of features that I expected in a Power Book. Note: 1 less Firewire, no dual battery/extpansion drives, and a dated GPU with a paltry amount of vram compared to the Flagship laptops of several PC companies. I thought the PowerBook is supposed to be the model that kicks the ass (especially in graphics) of every PC laptop in the market, while still looking good. The "Ferrari in an Armani suit". Finally, we have a portable G4, but, I'd rather have it a little thicker if that is what it takes to have the ports and the better video card. I don't love Powerbooks because they are thin, but because they are POWER Books.

16MB (or 32MB!) of vram and I'm in. If I need seperate firewire ports, I suppose there's always the pc card slot. I'd still miss the dual battery (I'm often in areas with no ac power).

[This message has been edited by Powerbook-ish (edited 01-11-2001).]

[ged]

> Originally posted by Powerbook-ish:
> I'm not complaining about the shape so much as...

no, but i am! the shape is as important to me as the rest of the machine. i dislike the ibook because a) it's pug-ugly and b) it has a ton of absolutely wasted space (well, they actually use it for the airport antennae or something, but...). however, i don't think the pismo's design wastes that much space, and it's shape is hardly "feminine."


> Originally posted by hardcat1970
> How come no one complains about the look of pc/window machines?

this is just plumb silly. why on earth should we, the users of mac fora, waste our energy complaining about the design of some silly windows laptops? we use these machines and keep apple afloat. it is certainly our prerogative to cpmplain about the design, the colour, the smell or the taste of any apple product.


> Originally posted by hotani
> quit complaining about the design!! What other design
> could be any more efficient than the Ti?

as others have said, efficiency isn't the end-all and be-all of a computer (think imac vs. beige). for a sub-notebook efficiency might be paramount, but not for a pro laptop. apple has traditionally combined style and elegance with features that rock. their products have been head-turners for a couple of years. now, they have finally made a product tthat is nothing special at all...



[This message has been edited by ged (edited 01-11-2001).]

in my opinion, that laptop's been in development FAR to long to have such a plain design. I was hoping for a more ibook-like look, WITH expansion bays, UMA2, and a superior graphics chipset. Oh well, we can't all get what we want, right? I suppose Mercury spent over a year in development just so they could figure out how to make it 1 inch thick...personally, I don't think a SUB-notebook should be Apple's platform for their flagship portable. Just my $.02.

[pdot]

okay guys, you gotta stop comparing the iBook to the PBG3 or PBG4. The iBook is meant to be geared towards students so Apple is trying to make it look neat. Also, it's also meant to be cheaper so Apple saves money by not spending a ton of time to design something small and more advanced. And since it's geared towards students, it should also be sturdy so the extra bumper space is needed.

[bitfly]

Ok, when I first saw the new Laptop I was VERY disappointed (being a designer myself). After speaking a an engineer though (not from Apple) they explained to me that Titanium is VERY hard to mold and form. You simply cannot cheaply and easily make a rounded form. This is why the new PowerBook is somewhat boxy. If you wanted to pay allot more I'm sure Apple could add a few curves though.

[Cipher13]

Thats not really true. Does it have rounded corners? Then it can't be THAT hard to mould it.
I know the process is longer, but still - the point remains.
Now I like the new design. If only it were black. If I get one I'll be painting it.
Its an efficient, serious, no BS design.

Cipher13

You guys!

Apple comes out with a product that bears more resemblance to modern art than a machine to type on, and you compare it to a dog turd?

The PBG4 is the kind of bold serious Bauhaus uncompromising radical design that almost never makes it into production. Just compare the production Porche Boxter with the original concept show car to see the typical devolution of design in production.

The Wallstreet/Lombard/Pismo series started as a radical statement too but the need for an efficient design to trump the Vaio meant the curved plastic had to go. Witness the acres of wasted volume in the iBook - it says fun, not efficiency or power. The mother and father of the PBG4 are the Cinema display and the Twentieth Anniversary Mac, both balls-out uncompromising designs with attitude. In the case of the TAM even arrogance, "I don't care if the drive runs slower when it's mounted verticaly - I'm gonna beat any mere stereo for looks even one from Bang & Olufsen!"

I can just hear our new Titanium friend saying, "VRAM! buy a PC if you want to play games! I'm here to spank that cute little Vaio! Magnesium!-How five minutes ago! And pixel's per inch - who needs resolution when you've got SIZE! And I've got all the inches you'll ever need, 1'' thick and 15" across, now shut-up and spit polish my Titanium case again! Before I put another ring through you where it hurts!"

[jpellino]

Originally posted by bitfly:
Ok, when I first saw the new Laptop I was VERY disappointed (being a designer myself). After speaking a an engineer though (not from Apple) they explained to me that Titanium is VERY hard to mold and form. You simply cannot cheaply and easily make a rounded form. This is why the new PowerBook is somewhat boxy. If you wanted to pay allot more I'm sure Apple could add a few curves though.

really? then explain all the titanium bicycles in some pretty wild curves...

Originally posted by jpellino:
really? then explain all the titanium bicycles in some pretty wild curves...

Yeah and some of those bicycles can cost as much as the Powerbook G4!

[Rheudabaga]

Uh, a well-crafted, curvy ti frame (that's the frame only!) is gonna set you back $2-3000.00 yankee currency.
http://www.sevencycles.com

....

revised: ralcasid beat me to the obvious comeback...but hey I had to go register first!

[This message has been edited by Rheudabaga (edited 01-12-2001).]

Ti + hammer = curved case.

Problem solved.

-- justin

Originally posted by jpellino:
really? then explain all the titanium bicycles in some pretty wild curves...

It's fairly easy to bend a tube. (I say fairly because titanium tubes like to spring back to their original shape unless you REALLY bend them.) Not so easy to form a seamless box from a sheet. Thermoplastic superforming of titanium requires a lot of heat and literally tons of pressure.

in regards to Ti tubing, a friend who worked on the Corvette's new Ti exhaust system told me that to bend a 90 degree curve in the tube, you had to bend the tube around almost 360 degrees. it's very hard to work with Ti. at least you don't have to worry about your PBook corroding though.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by worldboy:
I can just hear our new Titanium friend saying, "VRAM! buy a PC if you want to play games! I'm here to spank that cute little Vaio! Magnesium!-How five minutes ago! And pixel's per inch - who needs resolution when you've got SIZE! And I've got all the inches you'll ever need, 1'' thick and 15" across..."

Quite frankly: This is exactly the attitude that I have been missing in Apple for years.

It didn't matter diddly-squat that Apple was always making the better products, because nobody was buying them. The Titanium posters make it absolutely clear that Apple is going after the VAIO - which makes perfect sense, since those things are selling like hotcakes.

Apart from that, it's also the fastest notebook on the market. AND the fastest sub-notebook.

Yeah, maybe they should make one with two firewire ports and an ADC connector. Maybe they will. But I can't fault them for going after where the money is, especially since they absolutely wipe the floor with the competition. Their marketing is apparently finally based on that.

I know I want one.

-chris.

ADC? And how long could it possibly power the 17" or the Cinema Display off of its battery? How many ADC projectors are there that we know of? No, VGA still serves well in this position.

[schwei]

Say the following tonight over and over again as a way of falling asleep, instead of counting sheep, everybody:

"If I can swap batteries without putting my new PowerBook to sleep, I don't need a second battery bay anymore. If I can swap . . ."

[themotor]

Re: ADC?

Sorry, but If you're using your Ti with a large external monitor, you won't be needing to use the battery to power the thing unless you like to take your 17' CRT or Apple Cinema Display with you to the park or where ever one uses a laptop without the AC adaptor...

[maxintosh]

Hey!!!

I have an Audi A4 AND a curvacious Pismo! (and yes, the Ford Taurus is expressedly overdone and rahter ugly-- my friend ditched hers for a VW Passat she is totally in love with)

Although I really do like the new design. If I had the money, I'd buy a Ti PowerBook and ditch this machine. I think it's awesome. People DO need to stop complaining. Smile. Be happy!

Maxintosh

[xMetal]

First off, how many of you have HELD a TiBook?

Anyone?

Then be quiet and chill out until you can.

I don't think you can appreciate it fully until you hold it and examine it in real life. It seems like there are quite a few very cool and thoughtful details on the machine that might not come out in pics. You also can't appreciate the technology and manufacturing that went into that thing unless you have some experience with workign with metal. Forming plastic is child's play compared with creating the case of the TiBook.

Yes, Ti is hard to work. I've done it myself. It is tough stuff, and doesn't enjoy being bent all that much. I have also bought Ti sheet, and I can tell you that the stuff they are using is NOT CHEAP. I'd guess that just for the Ti you're looking at several hundred dollars of metal at retail prices (one 6" x 12" sheet of 22guage Ti cost me abot $55)

Funny you mention Seven Cycles. I have a bike made by them, and my frame alone costs considerably more than the highest end TiBook. It's custom, and required a lot of work to get right. (Also remember that you can't exactly weld a computer together.)

At first i wasnt very impressed with the design of the new PB, but then i woke up.
Its a beautiful machine without compromise.

Ok, anyone how wants curves, look at the screen of the ti, and the space surrounding the scrren. That is ths size of the laptop. I fyou want curves, they would only make it bigger than it already is. I dont know bout you, but i dont want my laptop to be any bigger (or heavier) than it has to be (esp b/c i carry my pismo everyday to work).

Get real people, do you really wanna to have a laptop bigger than the G4, or heavier, if you do your either insane, or dont really want a portable

check out http://www4.macnn.com/macnn/mwsf01/apple/pb8.jpg
to see the difference in size between a pismo and a ti

are curves worth that much space?
you tell me

[Wattsy]

<QUOTE>But I can't fault them for going after where the money is, especially since they absolutely wipe the floor with the competition. Their marketing is apparently finally based on that.</QUOTE>

Hmm... It would be nice to think Apple will sell loads of these things to people who might otherwise be buying a Sony or Dell, etc. but the reality is that many of those attracted to the design will back off when they realise it doesn't run Windows. The days when Apple sold significant numbers of PowerBooks to corporate 'suits' (and other regular PC users) have long gone. Like it or not, the Mac OS has little appeal to the vast majority of laptop buyers.

[This message has been edited by Wattsy (edited 01-12-2001).]

[hotani]

hey maxintosh: I have a black 2000 passat and a black (of course) Wallstreet 266 powerbook - can't wait to get my Ti!!

I think VW/Audi and Apple are on the same page in the design world - I like it!

------------------
PowerBook G3 266/128
Darwin 1.2/OS X PB/OS 8.6
download free hotani web template

[MrK]

Originally posted by drock3800:
in my opinion, that laptop's been in development FAR to long to have such a plain design. I was hoping for a more ibook-like look, WITH expansion bays, UMA2, and a superior graphics chipset. Oh well, we can't all get what we want, right? I suppose Mercury spent over a year in development just so they could figure out how to make it 1 inch thick...personally, I don't think a SUB-notebook should be Apple's platform for their flagship portable. Just my $.02.

A. Not a sub-notebook. Not at 5.3 lbs.
B. iBooks are really ugly. Several of my less technologically inclined relatives have them, and I have used them extensively since my sister bought a Tangerine 300 iBook. They suck. I would only be able to see half of this web page I am typing into right now on the 12 inch 800 x 600 display.
C. UMA 2 is useless right now, it should have been DDR-Ram that went into the top of the line PB and desktop G4s... UMA 2 can be added later w/ PCI or Type II card.
D. If only Apple had made a subnotebook and a Powerbook. They tried to satisfy two VERY different camps w/ one machine. I don't think anyone is 100% happy. But I'm 75% happy and I think this new shape and color is the most attractive notebook I've ever seen. It puts that bushpig of a plain black "curvy" design to shame.

[maxintosh]

Yeah! Apple and Volkswagen/Audi of America should merge! Both have the simple but stylish design down. And both are really damn fun to drive!

Let's see what interesting products they would make:
Power Macintosh G4 + Audi S4 = Power Mac S4
Volkswagen Beetle + iMac = iBeetle
Audi TT + iBook = iTT

:-)

Maxintosh

[MrK]

Originally posted by hotani:
hey maxintosh: I have a black 2000 passat and a black (of course) Wallstreet 266 powerbook - can't wait to get my Ti!!
I think VW/Audi and Apple are on the same page in the design world - I like it!

I thankfully disagree. I suppose the Audi/Volswagen platforms are ok if you don't like driving very much. Front wheel drive, 4 bangers, etc. I think the new Apples really remind me of BMW's. Expensive, yes. But there is nothing there that isn't there for the sake of performance. Yes, some slots, ports etc. have been sacrificed, but not for design as much as for weight/size performance, which is just as important in a portable as other performance features.

Also, BMW's look better than Audi's. Hand down. It was the Pismo case design, with all its curves that was the Audi/Volks design philosophy (see New Beatle and the Audi A6 - yuck). I'll take the 2001 PB and the 2001 M3, hands down.

[hotani]

BMWs are nice - and agreed, they may represent a closer image to apple than VW does, however VW is diving head first into the premium auto world.

My problem with BMW is traction: Audi has Quattro available on all their cars, BMW has rear wheel drive (I know, they have AWD coming soon - but they are mostly RWD) - Audi is the perfect combination of style, practicality and engineering - Like the Ti PowerBook!!

I'll take one Ti powerbook and a matching silver S4 please!!

------------------
PowerBook G3 266/128
Darwin 1.2/OS X PB/OS 8.6
download free hotani web template

[GG]

The Ti Powerbook is gorgeous, simply gorgeous! Apple got it right! They will surely upgrade videoprocessor, processor speed, and eventually include that second firewire port. Only problem is I want one of these machines now!

[maxintosh]

Front wheel drive and four bangers?

Errhhmmm whatever happened to the most recognized All-Wheel-Drive system in the world? (Quattro/4Motion/Syncro) Guess who won for handling in the A4 vs. BMW 325 comparison test. The A4 thanks to the all-wheel-drive system. Sharp, percise.

Plus you don't completley empty your wallet in the process.

Order a TT and Ti PowerBook for me, please.

Maxintosh

[Powerbook-ish]

Since we're onto cars now: Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VI. 2.0 L "4 banger" that will out drive any car in any class. 0 - 100mph in 10.5 sec, 0 - 60 in 4.3 sec, out-handle, out stop anything on the road, and it can take all the abuse you can throw at it. It may not be beautiful, but that's not the point. I just ordered my new Dell Inspiron 15" UXGA 1600 x 1200, 32MB ATi 128, PIII 850 mhz, 32 gig, Win2000, DVD, CD/RW, IEEE 1394, USB, blah blah blah. 'Bye everybody.

PISMO LOOKS LIKE AN ORCA NOW!

[whirk]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:

Apart from that, it's also the fastest notebook on the market. AND the fastest sub-notebook.

Yeah, maybe they should make one with two firewire ports and an ADC connector. Maybe they will. But I can't fault them for going after where the money is, especially since they absolutely wipe the floor with the competition. Their marketing is apparently finally based on that.

I know I want one.

-chris.

ADC is pointless,It's not really feasable anyways...ADC provides power as well as the video signal...and it's not practical / feasable to power a monitor off of a TiBook. I mean you could make a bigger powersupply to handle it when it was plugged in...but to provide the ability to transmit the power needed throught the guts of the powerbook would be another issue (can you say more heat). And the space...I'd rather see another firewire port and more vram used for the space that the ADC connector would take up. Besides...what LCD projector uses ADC?

[This message has been edited by whirk (edited 01-14-2001).]

Are you stupid or have you no imagination? People are simply asking for a digital way to connect the TiBook to one of these Apple monitors. No one's bringing their big monitors on the road, but want a way to connect up at home. Not everybody only has to make sad PowerPoint presentations on a video projector to a bunch of corporate stiffs. Some may do design work and the Powerbook may be their only computer. No one is asking for a giant power supply in their portable, but why can't there be a way to connect the Powerbook to the monitor, and have a seperate power supply connected to the wall? That ADC connector is another stupid, proprietary Apple invention. Only 2 computers built can digitally use these monitors, the PowerMac and the cube.

[ged]

> Originally posted by imp:
> Are you stupid or have you no imagination?

i have to agree with the anti-anti-adc posts. dammit, you anti-titanium people, please stop using this to diss the new 'book. you're comprimising our position! let's stick to the 'no curves' and 'no graphics card upgrade' whining.

[ged]

> i have to agree with the anti-anti-adc posts

or maybe i meant "anti-pro-adc" posts - i'm too drunk to know the difference right now.

anyway, anti-ti brethren, please try to figure out what i meant and use the correct whiny points.

[Misha]

I must admit that it sucks that I can't buy a Studio/Cinema display and connect it to my PBG4. On the plus side I have a 21" Studio, so I don't really care, but obviously Apple didn't think ADC out very well... chances are the next iMacs won't have ADC either, so you're left with an entire platform of displays that are incompatible with two of your three product lines that accept monitors.

You do the math.

[gorgonzola]

A computer can' t be all things to all people, hence the complaints. All you can do is grin behind your screen and say, "well, there are rumors that in another 8-10 months..."

I'm sick of the Pismo case.

I *love* Titanium. I want it. I want it. I want. Just like Jeff Goldblum told me. It may be ISDN indeed....

------------------
it's only after you lose everything that you're free to do anything