Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Drakino · Dec 18, 2003, 06:07 AM

Originally posted by KidKit:
I still don't see how the software update could possibly improve on your battery life...

You've either got juice left in the battery or you don't. The discharge curve of a battery would be affected by how much power the PB is using and by physical condition of the batt (ie is it an old battery etc). Any ideas?

Lithium based batteries require quite a bit of "smarts" to manage them properly. Without this, the battery would become unusable pretty quickly. This update seems to have done some much needed tweaks to this code, as my laptop seems to be reporting a higher capicity battery then before. I'll do a video playback test tomorrow, replicating my recent experiences before the update.

For more information about batteries, read on. This is not my information, but rather something posted by a Keith in Canada to the empeg BBS.

Most rechargeable batteries (NiCD, NiMH, Li-Ion) need a few "very full" charges (and not quite so deep discharges) cycles to fully activate or "set up" the battery chemistry, and thereby maximize the available capacity of the battery.

Once that has occurred, you maximize battery life and capacity by conforming to the appropriate charge/discharge needs of the battery type.

"Memory Effect", which could be better described as "voltage depression" during discharge, primarily affects NiCD type batteries. It occurs when slow/partial discharges followed by recharges causes the chemistry in the battery to partially crystalize, which raises internal resistance, and shortens the discharge time before the battery voltage reaches the lower limit for the device being powered. If the partially crystalized NiCd battery is then fully discharged, then charged, after a few cycles, the internal crystalization dispates, and most of the usable battery capacity is again available.

NiMh batteries are so much less suceptable to voltage depression that even when it has occured, the loss in capacity may not be noticed by the user (maybe only 5% capacity loss).

For most NiCd and NiMH batteries, the primary killer is poorly designed battery chargers. Many chargers continue to push substantial power into the battery after it has become fully charged. This continued overcharging causes chemical degradation of the battery chemistry, and is not reversable once the damage has been done. Frequent overcharging (which can occur even if the batteries don't feel "hot" in the charger) will substantially shorten the battery life and reduce the effective capacity.

If you are getting significantly reduced capacity and short lifespans from NiCd or NiMH batteries (even if you are recharging them before they are empty), you should suspect the charger is overcharging the batteries. If a few full discharge, then recharge cycles don't bring them back to life, then either the batteries are truely worn out, or the charger has done them in prematurely.

Li-ion batteries (which have impressive power density and light weight) are so sensitive to charge and discharge requirements that they are always managed by a very smart power management circuit, which relieves the user of concerns regarding the best charge/discharge strategy.

For Li-Ion powered devices, just use the device, recharge it when you want, and don't worry about the battery (other than _fully_ charging, and significantly discharging, the first few times to fully activate the battery chemistry.)

Spheric Harlot · Dec 18, 2003, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by adrianl:
Any ideas why I get odd response in Terminal? All other unix commands I've tried work ok.

Increase the width of your Terminal window.

-s*

guigo · Dec 18, 2003, 07:06 AM

Hi folks,

Yesterday I make the battery update and submit a post here saying after that my battery was indicating 5400 on terminal...

Today, after a full discharge/recharge procedure, it indicates 5596...

I noticed my battery is charging a little more fast....

regards

Guilherme
17" 1.33 1GB RAM

Spheric Harlot · Dec 18, 2003, 07:55 AM

On a 9-month-old 12" Powerbook Rev. A:

Well, right after the update, I had 3.51.

After another restart, I had a capacity of 3.48.

Now, a full discharge/charge and another restart and a PMU reset later (stupid CPU frequency keeps resetting to 533MHz instead of 867 - no, Energy saver settings make no difference), I am seeing a capacity of 3.16 !!!

Letting it do a full charge now (just let it completely discharge), to see what's up.

I'm beginning to wonder if the battery capacity weirdness is related to the ~100V AC charge I'm seeing on the case, and whether either of these might have to do with the constant resetting of the CPU frequency to minimal power.

-s*

Alpha-sphere · Dec 18, 2003, 07:55 AM

Before Battery update
Capacity = 4256
Amperage = 1200
Current = 4159
Voltage = 12445

After Battery update
Capacity = 4200
Amperage = 1426
Current = 3889
Voltage = 11858

Only the Amperage went up. Battery life as indicated in the menu bar has increased a little bit. Should i try conditioning the battery again or reset the power management?

vmarks · Dec 18, 2003, 08:39 AM

3503 Ah.

Dang.

nearly a year old powerbook now. 12".

all2ofme · Dec 18, 2003, 09:54 AM

My 12" 1GHz machine has been plugged in all day and upon rebooting after the update it's saying that there are 56 minutes until the battery will be fully charged.

Interesting.

Simon · Dec 18, 2003, 10:11 AM

On a rev B 12" PowerBook I went from 4.06Ah to 4.2Ah. Nice.

striker100 · Dec 18, 2003, 10:29 AM

Does it matter what level your battery is at before doing the software update?
Should I let my battery charge to 100% before doing the update or doesn't it matter?

s4iscool · Dec 18, 2003, 11:01 AM

No difference, just get the update, apply it, and reboot. I dont think you really have to charge it up right after. BUT it would be a good thing to do the battery calibration after restarting the computer from the update. Cant hurt.

Charge it up, use it till its forced to sleep. Then charge it up all the way, and your home free.

dgbatchelor · Dec 18, 2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by adrianl:
Every time I try this in the Terminal (this time I copied the command in above post) I get:

BatteryInfo
| | | | "IOBatteryInfo" = ({"Voltage"=12389,"Flags"=838860807,"Ampe$

in other words no indication of capacity or anything like what others report!

Any ideas why I get odd response in Terminal? All other unix commands I've tried work ok.

Adrian

Try making your Terminal window wider before issuing the command.

Blackstealth · Dec 18, 2003, 04:40 PM

Ran the battery update about an hour ago, Ah reading from IOBatteryInfo has increased from 3600ish to 4300.

With Energy saver set to longest battery life and everything turned off (brightness on one notch) I get an estimated battery life of 3hrs29m - Worse than before by about 10 minutes.

I think I'll leave it to do a complete discharge and recharge cycle before I believe it.

adrianl · Dec 18, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Increase the width of your Terminal window.

-s*

doh!

Thanks

Phat Bastard · Dec 18, 2003, 06:54 PM

I don't know what my "before update" capacity was in Ah, but now it's 4063.

I can comment in terms of battery lifetime. Before the update I could get 2 hours and 30 minutes, now I can get 2:40. Not a big change at all.

Are people being misleaded by looking at the capacity in Ah, as opposed to the actual running time of the battery? The actual running time of the battery depends on your energy saver settings, the processes you're running, your screen brightness setting...people here don't seem to be taking all those factors into account.

cowboybop · Dec 18, 2003, 07:46 PM

3.2 pre to 4.2 post. I'm talking capacity upgrade here! My beer will task extra sweet tonight! Thank you apple.

(smiles and walks off, forgetting his LCD problem).

terrancew_hod · Dec 18, 2003, 08:07 PM

Before the update depending on usage I was getting about 2 hours per charge. I don't think I did the calibration correctly when I first got the powerbook, so after I installed the update I recalibrated the battery (playing a dvd movie until it went to sleep) and recharged. I unplugged the powerbook and checked the remaining. On the same settings (1 bar brightness, no airport or bluetooth, 'automatic' setting on energy saver), the display now reads 4:50... I was fairly impressed. At about 3 bars brightness it says 4:10... If this is true, I'll definitely take it...

Terrance

vcutag · Dec 19, 2003, 04:04 PM

Before the update, I had 4200, after the update... 4200. No change there, but my estimated battery times have gone down by a half-hour. :-\

I'm running xBattery now while discharging the battery to sleep, I'll post back later w/ the results.

Oh yeah, I've got a 15" AlBook w/ superdrive running 10.3.2.

Blackstealth · Dec 19, 2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Blackstealth:
Ran the battery update about an hour ago, Ah reading from IOBatteryInfo has increased from 3600ish to 4300.

With Energy saver set to longest battery life and everything turned off (brightness on one notch) I get an estimated battery life of 3hrs29m - Worse than before by about 10 minutes.

I think I'll leave it to do a complete discharge and recharge cycle before I believe it.

After a complete discharge and recharge the meter reads no higher than 2hrs20 on any power setting. Not good!

I'm gonna run Xbattery over the weekend and see what time I really get out of the update. If it really is only 2hrs20 then I'm gonna be really pissed off.

forcelite · Dec 19, 2003, 04:50 PM

My mAh before the update 2.83

My mAh after is 4.200

Its funny how Apple is artificially putting the capacity to 4.2 which is what most people are getting after the update.

I would bet a lunch that these numbers are not real and is apples attempt to not send out new batteries

Daracle · 05:24 PM

I doubt that

EDIT:
I think if that was the case....there would be all the same

jgcan · Dec 19, 2003, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by terrancew_hod:
Before the update depending on usage I was getting about 2 hours per charge. I don't think I did the calibration correctly when I first got the powerbook, so after I installed the update I recalibrated the battery (playing a dvd movie until it went to sleep) and recharged. I unplugged the powerbook and checked the remaining. On the same settings (1 bar brightness, no airport or bluetooth, 'automatic' setting on energy saver), the display now reads 4:50... I was fairly impressed. At about 3 bars brightness it says 4:10... If this is true, I'll definitely take it...

Terrance

Capacity"=5400,"Amperage"=1175,"Current"=5335,"Vol tage"=12465

With the exact same settings (1 bar brightness) as the user above I get 5h30 min on my PB 17" 1.33.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 19, 2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by forcelite:
I would bet a lunch that these numbers are not real and is apples attempt to not send out new batteries

Well, seeing as I'm getting 3.54 Ah (WTF - it was 3.16 before the last restart!?)...

...you owe me a lunch.

-s*

dgbatchelor · Dec 19, 2003, 08:20 PM

Battery life doesn't magically get extended because of a new algorithm which predicts battery life... I'd forget all this chatter and wait until people have some real life hard facts.

BTW, performing discharge-charge cycles on your battery (to see if you "gained" magical battery life) will only result in less cycles it will hold a charge for you in using your laptop. (The batteries will not last forever!)

YMMV.

forcelite · Dec 19, 2003, 08:24 PM

I am referring to a norm, not a few outliners.

Look at the posts above, MANY are getting 4.2 exactly after the update, very unlikely that every one is getting the exact same mah, more that apple reset the battery to that as default or something

alex_kac · Dec 20, 2003, 12:02 AM

FOr me - after the install it told me 7 hours until it was a full recharge. So I shut down the PB and let it sit for 5 minutes charging. Then I started the PB.

PowerBook 15'' Al 1.25 Ghz
Old: 2 hrs 15 minutes
New: 3 hrs 45 minutes

So YEAH!

Spheric Harlot · Dec 20, 2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by dgbatchelor:
Battery life doesn't magically get extended because of a new algorithm which predicts battery life... I'd forget all this chatter and wait until people have some real life hard facts.

No, but it DOES get magically extended if the maximum capacity of the battery was incorrectly reported as too low previously, and the machine would simply stop charging at that point.

Not saying that is the case, but it's certainly a possibility, no?

-s*

iDaver · Dec 20, 2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
No, but it DOES get magically extended if the maximum capacity of the battery was incorrectly reported as too low previously, and the machine would simply stop charging at that point.

Exactly. It's about time somebody else said it. Way to be.

The keys to battery life are 1) how long it gets charged and 2) how long your computer runs until it THINKS the battery is discharged. This update could very well have an effect on both.

EvanV · Dec 20, 2003, 01:29 PM

Where is the link to download? I can't find it?

Spheric Harlot · Dec 20, 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by EvanV:
Where is the link to download? I can't find it?

If it's not showing up in Software update (Apple menu --> Software Update), it's not applicable to your machine.

Aluminum Powerbooks and later-model iBooks ONLY.

-s*

EvanV · Dec 20, 2003, 01:45 PM

I have a 1.25 GHz 15.2'' Aluminum PowerBook, but all that shows up is a Security Update and an XCode Update?

euchomai · Dec 20, 2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by EvanV:
Where is the link to download? I can't find it?

ummm... software update.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 20, 2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by EvanV:
I have a 1.25 GHz 15.2'' Aluminum PowerBook, but all that shows up is a Security Update and an XCode Update?

That's odd.

Maybe Apple removed it due to the problems some people are having?

Else, the link from MacUpdate is here:
http://www.macupdate.com/download.ph...e.dmg?id=13609

-s*

EvanV · Dec 20, 2003, 05:26 PM

I formatted my computer today and just went back to the Software Update and now it shows up.. Thanks

EvanV · Dec 20, 2003, 05:29 PM

Myn is showing 2:30 now. Before I was lucky to get 1:20....

agentmouthwash · Dec 21, 2003, 10:38 AM

My battery life went from 1:20 to 2:30!!!
And I didn't change any of the settings.
I am using a 15" Aluminum Powerbook.

WOPR · Dec 21, 2003, 02:22 PM

My 12" 867mhz seems to run a bit longer after the update so I'm glad I installed it. I'm not touching 10.3.2 with a ten foot pole though!

PBAddict · Dec 21, 2003, 04:12 PM

My batter time remaining is getting a bit confused. Today got to no time Remaining in the display and continued to work for another 10 minutes.

dennis88 · Dec 21, 2003, 04:24 PM

My battery went up from 4311 to 4448 on a 15" 1,25ghz!

I'm very pleased with the update!

forcelite · Dec 21, 2003, 05:05 PM

well when I first ran the update my mah was 4.2 , like allot of others.

now it dropped to 3.94

I downloaded a page on the apple site that said the batteries were supposed to be 4.6 I believe

I was battling the tech guys for a new battery, which they were resisting heavily, so I showed them that.

What have you guys told tech support to get a new battery. I am guessing it depends on who you get because the guy that I got would not budge at all. It was like I was taking away his first born son.

Thanks

KidKit · Dec 27, 2003, 12:23 PM

Here are some real life numbers instead of some diagnostic software readout...

I recently had another opportunity to run the PB battery down during a transpacific flight. I used airport extreme for less than an hour in total at 2 transit lounges, and got another ~2.5 hrs in total catching up with some email and wordprocessing during the flight itself. All antennaes are off during flight time and screen brightness was set to 2 notches.

Barring the fact that it was rather intermittent use (I put the PB to sleep in between uses), I'm not getting any real improvement compared to the couple of times when I ran the PB battery down during extended meetings (yeah, I have some pretty loooong meetings). For me, the PB battery averages around 3 to 3.5 hours, depending on airport usage, and this is the same both before and after the battery software update

For the fans of IOBatteryInfo stats, let me indulge you with these numbers... my PB started out with 4.230mAH and went down in a fluctuating manner to ~4.150. It went up artificially (as several other readers have pointed out) to 4.200 after the upgrade install, and its now back down to 4.153 again... so much for the upgrade huh?

Zaffir · Dec 27, 2003, 02:00 PM

My capacity (which jumped to 4.2 like other people experienced) is now at 3.944 after doing the calibration.

Simon · Dec 27, 2003, 06:43 PM

Same here: After the update my rev B 12" PB jumped to 4200 and now (after a new recalibration) it's back at its old 4054. Real use time hasn't changed. I'm starting to bvelieve that this update had no real effect on the rev B 12" model. Maybe others...

WizOSX · Dec 27, 2003, 06:57 PM

I didn't see any significant difference with my iBook 700. Installing the Battery update and 10.3.2 at the same time only lead to problems. I reformatted my hard drive, reinstalled 10.3.1 and not the Battery update and all is well again.

Simon · Dec 27, 2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by WizOSX:
I reformatted my hard drive, reinstalled 10.3.1 and not the Battery update and all is well again.

I'm ready to bet that you could now install the battery update and all would be well too.

Re-format and fresh re-install will make most misbehaving Macs act nice again.

jasong · Dec 27, 2003, 08:16 PM

forcelite, how could your capacity be 3.94 if

Apple is artificially putting the capacity to 4.2

?

Maybe the output of the ioreg command doesn't mean much. What's your battery life?

-- Jason

KidKit · Dec 28, 2003, 12:13 PM

The update artificially puts a lot of people's battery capacity at 3.200mAH immediately after the update, but after a couple of charge-discharge cycles or another round of calibration... people are getting back their old capacity (approx) when they check with IOBatteryInfo or Xbattery.

I do have the gut feeling that neither IOBatteryInfo, Xbattery nor the built-in battery indicator numbers are not always an accurate indication of real life battery performance... so a quick question to people who've reported seeing changes to their battery capacity after the upgrade install - are you seeing real changes to your battery life?

This raises another issue ... for people who are hassling Apple for replacements of defective batteries within the first year after purchase, what is going to be a convincing way of telling Apple that you do have a defective battery?

phantomo · Dec 28, 2003, 12:46 PM

Yup, after the update 10 days ago, my capacity when up to 4200 from 39xx. During the last 10 days, I think I had about 3 cycle of use to around 10% capacity and charge all the way back up to 99%. And now, the capacity is 3944 but I am still getting 4+ hours.

So I think I will recal the battery later on, just don't want to do the complete discharge and recharge cycle all the time.