[mpancha]

At my small business we've begun to use an SVN server to keep our files in check.

I am the only person in the company using a Mac, so of course I've got limited resources for help internally. I have Bootcamp installed with Vista, and Windows 2000 and XP VMs running which I could use with the companies choice of Subversion client, but I'd rather stay in OS X for all my work.

Is there a good client I can use in OS 10.5 that anyone knows of (has used preferably)? I've searched, but as this is my first experience with Subversion, I dont know what to look for in a good client.

What I've been told by the guy who setup the SVN server is I should make sure the client I choose "can handle http, https, svn and svn+ssh protocols". Also if it integrates with the OS, its an added bonus.

Thanks in advance.

[mpancha]

The one I've found that I might use thus far is: Syncro Subversion (Syncro Subversion (SVN) Client). But again, I know nothing about what to look for in a good subversion client. This one looks like it costs $59, I don't mind paying, but I do mind paying for something that might not be suitable.

[besson3c]

I use Subversion every day...

You don't need to buy a client, and you definitely don't need to run Windows, SVN is a Unix-centric tool... You can install the command line client via Macports or Fink. This client is the client that is included in the actual Subversion distro. I would suggest starting with it. I would be apprehensive about replacing this client, or with any GUI client that communicates with the Subversion client (a client for a client just seems like an awkward design)...

I'm happy to answer any questions you have about SVN.

[mpancha]

You're really a fan of command line over GUI it seems. I've been following your posts for awhile, and its just the sense I get

Personally I prefer GUI when possible. I'm perfectly capable of using command line when necessary, I just prefer GUI apps in the end.

I will however ask if I have questions about SVN (or rather when I have questions)

[besson3c]

I'm not necessarily an unconditional fan of CLI over GUI, they both have their purposes.

What I'm not a fan of is a GUI for a tool that was *designed* to be a CLI tool. This is just adding another layer of complexity. In this case, this is a client for a client - this is sort of like having a steering wheel for another steering wheel.

[mpancha]

Makes sense, kind of like the Network Utility included in OS X.... by the time I fire it up (even when using spotlight to launch), I generally have already completed the task in terminal.

I guess once I've used subversion a bit, it'll be second nature to me.

[besson3c]

Well, in fairness, their is probably a Subversion API that is abstracted from the client that ships with SVN. I see that there are SVN bindings for a number of languages, which is why I suspect this to be the case.

So, perhaps a GUI client is not a steering wheel for another steering wheel, but it is a relative unknown variable in comparison to the client built by the actual SVN developers. Then again, somebody mighit point out that there are better BitTorrent clients than the official BitTorrent client...

Leaving aside all of this, I actually find the SVN CLI client very efficient. I can't see how it can be improved upon in a GUI, short of building in rich client support into the GUI apps I'm using.

[mpancha]

Well what I'm looking for is being able to do what my WIndows counterparts are able to do...

namely have SVN integrated into the OS (so right click gives me SVN tasks I can perform on folders/files, etc). I'd like to be able to point to a folder in OSX, and have it sync that folder, visually see it at a glance in the OS without having to check in CLI.... minor niceties I guess you could call it.

To quote a colleague who I asked abotu SVN this morning:

most of the svn clients have the similar features
what i find useful is the DIFF, integration with ur OS
for me, i have folders marked w/ a checkmark
or exclamation or something
so i know which folders need to be checked in

[besson3c]

Are your Windows guys using TortoiseSVN? If so, check this out:

scplugin.tigris.org

[timmerk]

check out versionsapp.com. However, it looks to be vaporware. :-( They have said a beta was coming out for the last year.

[mpancha]

besson3c >> yea, they are using tortoiseSVN to access the SVN repository. I installed the scplugin, it appears to be installed and shows up in the contextual menu in the FInder... but of course, I have no idea what to do next I'll get one of the guys to help me out in person tomorrow.

timmerk >> I"ll check out versionsapp.com as well.

Has anyone tried SyncroSubversion?

[legacyb4]

Agreed. There is a bit of a learning curve on using SVN through CLI, but once you have that down, it works as expected with your svn add/update/ci/status commands for daily use. It really removes the complexity of trying to map a file browser GUI onto an existing GUI (the Finder).

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What I'm not a fan of is a GUI for a tool that was *designed* to be a CLI tool. This is just adding another layer of complexity. In this case, this is a client for a client - this is sort of like having a steering wheel for another steering wheel.

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by mpancha 

besson3c >> yea, they are using tortoiseSVN to access the SVN repository. I installed the scplugin, it appears to be installed and shows up in the contextual menu in the FInder... but of course, I have no idea what to do next I'll get one of the guys to help me out in person tomorrow.

My experience so far is that SCPlugin is limited by comparison to TortoiseSVN (TSVN). In fact IMHO, NOTHING on the MacOS side provides the ease of and feature set in TSVN. Why someone is not busy porting it to MacOS is beyond me ...

In any event, I recommend that you also get an SVN GUI client on the MacOS. I find svnX to be a bit more useable than ZigVersion (both are free, albeit the latter only for non-commercial use).

First, I assume you will have access to an SVN Repository server rather than have to setup a local SVN Repository. Setting up the latter requires that you use the command line (unlike TSVN).

I also assume you have the SVN base set of files on your MacOS/Unix side. Under Tiger, you have downloaded them. Under Leopard, they are already present. You should also go ahead and edit the SVN preferences file BEFORE you start working with SVN. To do so requires either the command line or a text editor that can see invisible files. I use TextWrangler (free) for this. You'll want to set up all the proper mime-types and such for all the files you'll be using. If possible, have someone on the WinXX side ZIP their SVN preference file and send it to you to copy into your installation - this will keep you compatible on all cases.

To access a server SVN Repository and establish a Working Copy (WC), you can use a GUI tool or SCPlugIn. The limitation of the latter is, its SVN repository access dialog box does not expand enough to show URLs for long server names. You'll also find, if you access mulitple repository locations, using the GUI will be indispensible. Here at least, the MacOS clients are better than TSVN on WinXX because you can track all your SVN work.

After importing a Repository to a WC, I use the contextual menus in SCPlugIn to do the basic Add, Update, and Commit stuff on/to my WC. In this way, it functions as TSVN. I use the GUI tool to view log histories and diffs on files. BTW, you may need a third app to show the diffs - I use TextWrangler. Admittedly, some of this may be a bit fancier than TSVN. The disappointment by comparison to TSVN is however, one needs to integrate two or more applications on the MacOS to accomplish the work of one on WinXX. Sometimes, I feel, well ...

Finally, if you really want to do anything advanced with SVN, you'll go back to the command line. For example, I happen to use the Date: and Revision: keywords extensively in my project files. TSVN allows me to set these properties directly through its contextual menu. NONE of the MacOS clients allows any such access to SVN properties. Even accessing the SVN preferences through TSVN is sooooo much easier!!!

So, in summary, when using of SVN on MacOS (by comparison to using TSVN on WinXX) ...

1) expect to need SCPlugIn and a GUI SVN client application
2) expect to need other applications (such as a text editor) in some cases
3) expect frustration / confusion when trying to do basic SVN stuff
4) expect to use the Terminal / command-line for advanced SVN work
5) expect to be better able to meta-manage multiple SVN projects

I wish I could provide comforting words to replace items 1-4 above, but unfortunately they are representative of the current state of SVN development on the MacOS as I see it.

HTH

--
JJW

[besson3c]

If any one of these GUI tools causes confusion, I really really suggest that you learn the CLI SVN client first, as the GUI tools most likely simply try to provide a subset of this same functionality without the same verbose feedback. You need to know *exactly* what you are doing here, and the CLI interface will make this much more clear.

Don't rely on pointy clicky tools for something as important as managing a code repository without a good understanding of SVN.

[mpancha]

jjwmac >> Very informative post, pretty much answers all my questions about how to get started, and where I'm going to end up.... balding even quicker when I start pulling out clumps of hair.

I do have access to an SVN repository server, I set that up first, and have it working perfectly with windows clients internally and externally, even have it all nice and secure using SSL. Very proud of myself on that side considering I am starting from scratch using SVN for the first time ever.

I also do have the base set of files, or rather, the base set of our accounting related files have been synched by one of the guys on the WIndows side of things. I deal more with the administrative side and with the web side of the business, the HTML/CSS side of things. I have those files locally, and am trying to get them to the server (using SVN, I can do this via FTP, but this will be a learning experience for me, so I'm sticking with solely using SVN here).

besson3c >> the more I go through this, the more I'm leaning towards what you said from the start... I'll need that foundation of CLI based SVN to successfully perform SVN tasks on my Mac.

Can you suggest a starting point for me... basically, a dumbies guide to CLI SVN + os 10.5?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by mpancha 

jjwmac >> Very informative post, pretty much answers all my questions about how to get started, and where I'm going to end up.... balding even quicker when I start pulling out clumps of hair.

I do have access to an SVN repository server, I set that up first, and have it working perfectly with windows clients internally and externally, even have it all nice and secure using SSL. Very proud of myself on that side considering I am starting from scratch using SVN for the first time ever.

Cool! Do you mean SSL + Webdav, or ssh+svn (SSH uses SSL)?

I also do have the base set of files, or rather, the base set of our accounting related files have been synched by one of the guys on the WIndows side of things. I deal more with the administrative side and with the web side of the business, the HTML/CSS side of things. I have those files locally, and am trying to get them to the server (using SVN, I can do this via FTP, but this will be a learning experience for me, so I'm sticking with solely using SVN here).

besson3c >> the more I go through this, the more I'm leaning towards what you said from the start... I'll need that foundation of CLI based SVN to successfully perform SVN tasks on my Mac.

Can you suggest a starting point for me... basically, a dumbies guide to CLI SVN + os 10.5?

Okay, first checkout the code from the repository:

- svn co <url to repository> (how the URL is formatted will depend on the answer to my first question here)

- make your changes within the directory you have checked out

- cd into this directory and do a "svn status". This will show you a list of files that have been modified.

- If you have added a file that is not a part of the repository yet, it will be marked with a question mark. Do a "svn add path/to/file" to mark your file as needing to be added. It will be added at next check-in this way. Do a "svn status" and your new file should now be listed with an "A" for add

- If you need to remove a file, do a "svn del path/to/file"

- If you need to compare the differences between your local file and the file in the repository, do a: "svn diff path/to/file"

- If you want to see what files are in the repos within your current directory do a "svn list"

- Once you are ready to check in your changes, return to the top level directory where your checked out code resides, and do a svn ci -m "description of your changes". If changes have been made by somebody else since you had checked out the code, do a "svn update" to grab the last changes

- Everybody else will now see your checked in changes the next time they do a "svn update" in their checked out code

another way for referring to "checked out code" is "files under version control"...

Does this help?

[besson3c]

Be careful about how the repository is stored and accessed too. The nice thing about WebDAV is that you can provide per user/per project access via HTTP basic auth, but make sure that your project isn't left for anybody to checkout.

If your users also have accounts on the machine where your SVN repository resides, a better idea might be ssh+svn and SSH public key authentication. Apache won't need to be running on this machine if you decide to go this route.

[mpancha]

besson3c>> ssh+svn

[legacyb4]

Here's a very simple guide for CLI svn that everyone should be using.

For a really quick overview of commands available to you, just fire off 'svn help' in Terminal and you'll see what you can do.

Originally Posted by mpancha 

Can you suggest a starting point for me... basically, a dumbies guide to CLI SVN + os 10.5?

[mpancha]

legacyb4 >> that's perfect. I'll be reading through the link and the help over the weekend. Most likely I'll be back on Monday with a ton of questions

Thanks again everyone for your help.

[Tack]

Originally Posted by mpancha 

besson3c >> the more I go through this, the more I'm leaning towards what you said from the start... I'll need that foundation of CLI based SVN to successfully perform SVN tasks on my Mac.

Can you suggest a starting point for me... basically, a dumbies guide to CLI SVN + os 10.5?

The free SubVersion book will be a great resource.

[chinstrap]

Are you on leopard? Do you have the Developer Tools installed? The subversion CLI is included in the developer tools, and XCode has Subversion support built right in. Of course, if it's not source code you are managing with svn, it may not be the most comfortable fit for managing the files (though it should work fine). While I haven't used it myself, I've read good things about ZigVersion.

[newtonman]

I use BBEdit with PHP and the SVN support is great.

[timmerk]

BBEdit? They still around?? haha i kid i kid, but it's feeling it's age.

[besson3c]

I don't really understand why version control ala CVS/Subversion hasn't caught on outside of the developer/geek community. It is immensely useful to be able to roll back to previous versions of things at the application level. I know we now have Time Machine, and Windows has had the Shadow Copy thing, but CVS/Subversion has been out *forever*.

Instead of utilizing SVN, some developers have reinvented the wheel with stuff like Adobe Bridge (I think?!), but it's too bad there hasn't been more pressure for developers to standardize on something. It would be awesome if a SVN server were as common as an FTP server, and applications like Office supported it natively. Not only is it a great tool for being able to roll back, but it's a great organization and collaborative tool.

Like anything else it has its weaknesses and obstacles, but why the demand hasn't warranted developers attacking this problem more aggressively alludes me - I definitely see a strong need for this sort of thing.

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If any one of these GUI tools causes confusion, I really really suggest that you learn the CLI SVN client first, as the GUI tools most likely simply try to provide a subset of this same functionality without the same verbose feedback. You need to know *exactly* what you are doing here, and the CLI interface will make this much more clear.

Don't rely on pointy clicky tools for something as important as managing a code repository without a good understanding of SVN.

I agree with the sense of your comment.

For me, getting a good understanding of SVN has required beating it up one side and down the other, not just doing a RTFM routine. Also, while I am not shy to use a CLI when needed, having an intuitive and unobtrusive GUI tool that can handle a given task is all the better. In this regard and IMHO, TortioseSVN on WinXX makes USING SVN a heck of a lot easier than any GUI tool I have found on MacOS.

Because of this, I can honestly say, I have learned more about the concepts behind and "nuts-and-bolts" of SVN by using TortioseSVN on a WinXX system than I anticipate I could ever have learned by using any type of currently existing tool (CLI or GUI) on the MacOS side. I can also readily say, if my developments did not span both WinXX and MacOS platforms, and if my use of SVN was a mandated requirement, I would be very likely working exclusively with TortoiseSVN on a WinXX system. Indeed, if its entire functionality were to be exactly duplicated on the MacOS side, I would see no benefits to recommend using the CLI SVN in its place.

As a side note, I am also running across posts that suggest that SVN and certain MacOS file types, namely the Packages folders, do not play well together. This seems to create a limitation for using SVN with iWork applications. See further info at http://theappleblog.com/2008/01/04/i...es-subversion/.

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If any one of these GUI tools causes confusion, I really really suggest that you learn the CLI SVN client first, as the GUI tools most likely simply try to provide a subset of this same functionality without the same verbose feedback. You need to know *exactly* what you are doing here, and the CLI interface will make this much more clear.

Don't rely on pointy clicky tools for something as important as managing a code repository without a good understanding of SVN.

... Sorry for the double post ... the system seemed to throw me out and left me thinking the first one got dropped ...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by jjwmac 

I agree with the sense of your comment.

For me, getting a good understanding of SVN has required beating it up one side and down the other, not just doing a RTFM routine. Also, while I am not shy to use a CLI when needed, having an intuitive and unobtrusive GUI tool that can handle a given task is all the better. In this regard and IMHO, TortioseSVN on WinXX makes USING SVN a heck of a lot easier than any GUI tool I have found on MacOS.

Because of this, I can honestly say, I have learned more about the concepts behind and "nuts-and-bolts" of SVN by using TortioseSVN on a WinXX system than I anticipate I could ever have learned by using any type of currently existing tool (CLI or GUI) on the MacOS side. I can also readily say, if my developments did not span both WinXX and MacOS platforms, and if my use of SVN was a mandated requirement, I would be very likely working exclusively with TortoiseSVN on a WinXX system. Indeed, if its entire functionality were to be exactly duplicated on the MacOS side, I would see no benefits to recommend using the CLI SVN in its place.

As a side note, I am also running across posts that suggest that SVN and certain MacOS file types, namely the Packages folders, do not play well together. This seems to create a limitation for using SVN with iWork applications. See further info <a href="http://theappleblog.com/2008/01/04/iwork-hates-subversion/">here</a>.

If TortoiseSVN doesn't obfiscate what is going on, great, it may be just as useful for learning on, and I never questioned that it might ultimately be more efficient for you.

However, GUI tools generally *are* intended to obfiscate, because most users don't need to know about everything that goes on behind the scenes. Mind you, the SVN CLI client still does obfiscate... I mean, if you really want to monitor what goes on you can do a tcpdump and monitor traffic this way, but it provides all feedback that the API was designed to provide to the end user, because it was written by the very people that wrote the API.

Also, I'm sure that Tortoise or no other GUI tool will help you with the initial setup of SVN - creating SSH public keys if you are authenticating that way, perhaps even importing new projects to the repos. All of this stuff is important to grasp too, even though you may only do it once. Understanding this will help you figure out why connections to the server are being dropped, etc.

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by mpancha 

...

Can you suggest a starting point for me... basically, a dumbies guide to CLI SVN + os 10.5?

How about these two as related to OS X 10.4 and the GUI as additional starters ...

Subversion With Mac OS X Tutorial
HOW TO set up svnX on OS X for accessing an SVN repository

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

... Also, I'm sure that Tortoise or no other GUI tool will help you with the initial setup of SVN ...

With TSVN on WinXX, I believe I never had to touch a CLI to set up my working SVN access to an external repository. Even when I went through the practice of setting up a local SVN repository, I could do so without the CLI.

[besson3c]

I stand corrected WRT repos creation. Will TSVN setup your SSH public/private keys for you too? Does it include a built-in SSH client?

[besson3c]

Also, just curious, why are you referring to WinXX? Was it never ported to Windows 2000 or Vista or something?

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Also, just curious, why are you referring to WinXX? Was it never ported to Windows 2000 or Vista or something?

Sorry. Just being generic and lazy. WinXX is easier to type than any of its existing deviants. The system I have is Vista.

[jjwmac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I stand corrected WRT repos creation. Will TSVN setup your SSH public/private keys for you too? Does it include a built-in SSH client?

I will have to check and get back to you on this later in the week.

[mpancha]

Wow, didn't check this thread for one day and so much more info

I'm using 10.5, but don't have developer's tools installed. As someone said earlier, its a great tool outside the developer's community... and that's where I lie. The 2 developers in the community have been wanting SVN, and I finally added the capabilities to our storage server. On my end, my main use is to keep updates with work progress between the different parts of the company, which is where I see SVN as a great tool. I can see the latest changes without waiting on email updates, and large files wasting space in multiple places.

[wadesworld]

besson3c,

For anyone with even a moderately technical mindset (which you appear to have) I highly recommend using the command-line client. The various GUIs are OK, but invariably a situation comes up where they barf, and then it's extremely difficult to figure out what's going on and how to resolve it. The command-line knowledge you gain will indispensable both for yourself and when helping others.

The thing lacking on the Mac is an integrated client like TVSN on the PC for people like artists. Our artists have tried every client under the sun, but invariably, something always goes wrong. I've also tried to teach them the command-line, but they just don't get it.

[stwf]

ZigVersion!


ZigZig Software - ZigVersion

[Hugi]

I've been using SVN for some time, and I've never found a generic GUI-tool that I trust. Using the svn command line client is quite simple, and it's beneficial to know how it works. SVN is a really well designed system and unlike many other unix commands, it's parameters and syntax are consistent and easy to understand.

Besides, there are really very few commands you _need_ to know:

svn import (import a new project to the repository)
svn co (check out an existing project)
svn update (update a working copy to the newest version)
svn commit (commit your changes to the repository)
svn add (add a new file)
svn rm (delete a file)

But really, the best svn command is "svn help", as the name implies, it is very helpful . And you can get help for each svn command by typing "svn help [command]", for example "svn help update".

That said, I'm developing in Java using Eclipse - and I do appreciate the support I get for Subversion - I haven't had to use the CLI for quite some time. So if you can use SVN in your IDE, that's cool too .

[Peter]

Versions - Mac Subversion Client
still waiting.

[Peter]

versions public beta is out.

[timmerk]

about time! but at least it came. too bad i can't use it at work because our usernames must have the windows domain in it, and Versions does not allow backslashes in the username. but hey, its a beta!

[Peter]

I was curious to see if this would work as a way for users to check in and out office documents.

[besson3c]

Peter: you'd have partial functionality in doing that. You'd have to give up proper diff outputs, the ability to merge local changes with repos changes, and other features like these that only work with plain text documents.

[Peter]

does that application exist?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Peter 

does that application exist?

What application? Something that recognizes the differences between Office documents, or something that does what I've described above?

[besson3c]

I'm leaving the Subversion train right now, as are a lot of other people...

The so-called next generation source control systems are being hyped very much right now, and I can see the advantages in a design such as Git (but there are others: Mercurial, etc.) over Subversion. In fact, I don't think there is much point in investing in learning Subversion right now. While there are still a ton of people still using Subversion, it may very well be abandoned and considered passé before too long.

[alex_kac]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm leaving the Subversion train right now, as are a lot of other people...

The so-called next generation source control systems are being hyped very much right now, and I can see the advantages in a design such as Git (but there are others: Mercurial, etc.) over Subversion. In fact, I don't think there is much point in investing in learning Subversion right now. While there are still a ton of people still using Subversion, it may very well be abandoned and considered passé before too long.

Funny. In every large and small development environment I've seen, been a part of, and have the privilege to see all over the world - 99% are using Subversion and nobody is thinking about leaving.

[Arkham_c]

Psh. Subversion is hardly obsolete. I know of a couple of companies that still use RCS. The good thing about learning the CLI tools is that your skills will help with any version control system.

I've used RCS, CVS, Perforce, SVN, and ClearCase, and in every case having known how to use RCS was 80% of what I needed to know to move between them. Git is the next generation, but this same premise will likely hold.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by alex_kac 

Funny. In every large and small development environment I've seen, been a part of, and have the privilege to see all over the world - 99% are using Subversion and nobody is thinking about leaving.

http://mjtsai.com/blog/2007/07/15/subversion-to-git/
http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitSvnComparsion

I forgot to add that Git was actually written by Linus Torvalds.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Arkham_c 

Psh. Subversion is hardly obsolete. I know of a couple of companies that still use RCS. The good thing about learning the CLI tools is that your skills will help with any version control system.

I've used RCS, CVS, Perforce, SVN, and ClearCase, and in every case having known how to use RCS was 80% of what I needed to know to move between them. Git is the next generation, but this same premise will likely hold.

I'm not saying that SVN is obsolete, there are still tons of people that use it. But, if you were to implement a source control system where none existed, it doesn't make sense to start with Subversion when there are better systems out there such as Git. As well, some of the more adventuresome might be migrating to Git, although of course I have no way of giving you any real, meaningful numbers.