[Mel Dada]

I'm sorry I have to report my 12 pwerbook 80 gig arrived this morning with a white pixel spot and a non functioning ram slot. i brought it to Apple store they confirmed it and gave me a case # and the computer will be shipped out for repair. This is frustrating- i thought new computers go through a rigorous quality control. Apparently they don't. Also Apple said there was nothing to be done about the dead white pixel. I insisted that I paid good money for this. why should i be satisfied with a white pixel on arrival? I'm a video editor- I have to look at a screen carefully. It bothers me. The cat at the Apple store said if everyone complained and returned their computers because of a dead pixel then the price would go up. BS. This is corporate speak. If there are possible dead pixels on arrival then they should say that in their product description.

Meanwhile- life goes on all around me, this is minor in the course of life but heck if I'm not going to speak my mind.

peace
mel

[mishap]

Originally posted by Mel Dada:
This is corporate speak. If there are possible dead pixels on arrival then they should say that in their product description.

isnt this the nature of laptop screens?

anyway i have one dead pixel in my new 12"... in the very top right corner... out of the way. oh well, it would drive me crazy if i had to return it for a dead pixel.

[ibook_steve]

This has been discussed in the forum many times before. What the person at the Apple store said is true. Consumer LCD's are the kind of parts where if they required every LCD to not have any of their 786432 (1024x768) transistors work perfectly, the cost to test and replace those with only single pixel failures would greatly increase their price. The LCD is already one of the most expensive parts of the system. Be happy that we don't still have old passive matrix displays with ghosting pixels and whole lines of pixels going out. Ah, the good old days.

Steve

[Daracle]

Should he not have an issue if it CAME with the dead pixel?
I would be just as mad if my new product arrived with the dead pixel

[Mel Dada]

Originally posted by mishap:
isnt this the nature of laptop screens?

anyway i have one dead pixel in my new 12"... in the very top right corner... out of the way. oh well, it would drive me crazy if i had to return it for a dead pixel.

anyway i returned it for the dysfunctional ram slot, i'd have to be out of mind not to. I can't have only the installed 256 ram. i paid for a new computer. its a pain in the neck. that's all. life goes on- this kind of stuff goes withthe territory. Apple's a good company. hell Gates backs Bush he even gives him campaign contributions! can you imagine? and look at the junk they make. At least Jobs has an edge. and i'll bet anyone 25-1 that he doesn't back Bush. . I can live with the white pixel, but ill maintain that nature or not it shouldn't be there on arrival. so havingto return the computer anyway I might as well grouse a bit and see if i can get it fixed. i;ll lay tento one that the spot will remain. mine is not in a corner but in the top quadrant. ah hell ive got my health- what else is there? a clean screen on arrival!


peace-mel

[Mel Dada]

Originally posted by Daracle:
Should he not have an issue if it CAME with the dead pixel?
I would be just as mad if my new product arrived with the dead pixel

thank you. i can understand Apple's pov but i can understand mine a bit better. I shelled out the bucks.they've got plenty.

make love not war
mel

[KidKit]

I thought I would just set the record straight for all that complaining about pixels and the guidelines that an Apple techsupport or genius at the store would have to comply with. This is lifted straight off the PB 12" DVI (RevB) technical manual...

QUOTE:

1. Set the display image to one of the following colors: all-white display, all-red display, all-green display, or all-blue display.
2. Using a jeweler�s loupe, pocket microscope, or other magnifying device, identify and count each subpixel anomaly: � Bright subpixel anomaly = subpixel that is always on � Dark subpixel anomaly = subpixel that is always off
3. Important: Check the number of subpixel anomalies with the following chart:

LCD Size (inches):
12.1 to 15.2
Acceptable Number of Subpixel Anomalies:
Bright - up to 3
Dark - up to 5
Combination - up to 7
Replace the Display:
Bright - 4 or more
Dark - 6 or more
Combination - 8 or more

4. If the number of subpixel anomalies exceeds the acceptable number listed in the chart, replace the LCD panel.
5. If the number of subpixel anomalies is acceptable, explain to the customer that the pixel anomalies are within specifications, and no repair is necessary. Important: Do not release the specifications to customers. Instead, inform them that a certain number of subpixel anomalies is considered acceptable, and these factors apply to all manufacturers using LCD technology�not just Apple products.

[DigitalEl]

I had an equally disappointing out of box experience with my PowerBook. Now, nearly a year later, I'm very pleased w/my replacement machine.

Still, two screws have fallen out -- and my Book is babied. Seems QA isn't what it once was.

Anybody know how long Apple's standard warranty on PowerBooks (without AppleCare) is good for? I know I could look it up easily, but also know someone here will have that info in their head without looking it up.

[tooki]

You have to realize that on a 1024x768 display, there are almost 2.5 million subpixels, and every single one of those has to work flawlessly to produce a perfect display.

Frankly, I think it's amazing how many perfect displays they ARE able to produce. The yields have increased a lot (which is the main reason prices for TFT displays have dropped over the past 15 years). In the past, yields of only one usable panel in 3 were acceptable. I don't know what the numbers are now, but I'm willing to bet they're orders of magnitude better.

Have you tried massaging the dead pixel? Sometimes, they're just stuck, and can be massaged out of their coma.

tooki

[Mel Dada]

Have you tried massaging the dead pixel? Sometimes, they're just stuck, and can be massaged out of their coma.

tooki [/B]

yes i tried massaging the pixel and that didn';t work. but what i did massage was Apple Customer Service and that worked! Apple is a great company! They are exchanging the machine! I've got to hand it to this company, when one approaches these issues calmly and not losing one's head about it, usually the folks at Apple respond in a positive fashion. i'm getting a full 0 exchange no restocking fee or anything. Don;t forget i had one other problem other thah the dead pixel but I think I played the system right. It'll probably take a week or so but I've got time.it'll be worth it- (let's hope there are no new anamolies.)Thanks for the above comments. it made me think things through a bit. Because of Apples understanding ways i was not going to buy a Airport Base Station but because of this I'll shell out the extra bucks to buy Apple Products whenever I can. Thanks Apple- you make a helluva computer, with excellent support and customer service to match.

mel

"it's always the same, the name of the game, is who do you know higher up, it's hell time baby."-B.Dylan

[cambro]

Originally posted by Mel Dada:
Apple said there was nothing to be done about the dead white pixel. I insisted that I paid good money for this. why should i be satisfied with a white pixel on arrival?

As mentioned....I know that this sucks royally, but the reason why you should be satisfied with one or two stuck pixels is that there is NO WAY any of us could afford the cost of zero-tolerance screens.

So, take your pick...12" LCDs for about $2000 or tolerances that include a few stuck pixels per screen.

[porieux]

Originally posted by Mel Dada:
The cat at the Apple store said if everyone complained and returned their computers because of a dead pixel then the price would go up.

Maybe that would be a good thing. Don't see why that is seen as a downside.

If we wanted cheap crap we wouldn't buy a Mac in the first place.

Just playing devil's advocate here

[Daracle]

I dont think he was asking for a flawless LCD, but more concerned that it CAME with a dead pixel on first boot up.....I think his reaction would be the same to most people here if not most consumers.
I am glad to see how it ended though, Once again showing that when it comes to the Apple people, be respectful and you will get it in return. Its not the person on the phones fault, they are there to help you.

[Cadaver]

Its too bad that the PowerBook had a bad RAM slot, however unfortunately we have to live with dead pixels on LCD screens.

No LCD manufacturer/distributor will guarantee all perfect pixels. Not Dell, not IBM, not Gateway/eMachines, not Hitachi, not NEC and not Apple. All manufacturers have a different thresholds at which they'll replace the display, but I don't know any that will replace the screen for a single dead pixel.

Sucks, I know. My 22" Cinema Display has a stuck green subpixel in the upper left quadrant (fortunately almost never noticeable) and my iBook has a suck-on red pixel on the left-mid side.

The incidence of "pixel anomalies" is significantly better these days than before, but still there's no way to guarantee a perfect display.

[[APi]TheMan]

Were dead pixels/white spots a problem before the last two or so revs of Powerbooks? I had never heard of any problems. Yes, I know that this is a problem with LCDs in general, but do you ever hear of any PC laptops that have dead pixels or white spots? I think that if I had dead pixels on my Powerbook and a PC user saw my laptop he'd laugh and mutter something about Macs sucking.

What happens with the Apple Studio Displays? Do 23" HD displays get dead pixels? What would you think if your super spiffy, new, $2000 23" made-for-graphic-designer-and-music-person-display had some dead pixels? Garbage!

I, too, think dead pixels on arrival are not cool and I'm glad Apple took care of your new Powerbook.

[Cadaver]

Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Were dead pixels/white spots a problem before the last two or so revs of Powerbooks? I had never heard of any problems. Yes, I know that this is a problem with LCDs in general, but do you ever hear of any PC laptops that have dead pixels or white spots? I think that if I had dead pixels on my Powerbook and a PC user saw my laptop he'd laugh and mutter something about Macs sucking.

What happens with the Apple Studio Displays? Do 23" HD displays get dead pixels? What would you think if your super spiffy, new, $2000 23" made-for-graphic-designer-and-music-person-display had some dead pixels? Garbage!

I, too, think dead pixels on arrival are not cool and I'm glad Apple took care of your new Powerbook.

The "white spots" issue Apple had with a previous batch of LCDs is not the same thing as dead/stuck pixels.

Yes, EVERY company that sells LCDs will have some with stuck pixels. I've seen plenty of monitors on Dells at work with stuck pixels.

[pcummins]

Probably off topic, but FYI :

After looking around, I found out that Samsung offers a zero pixel* defect policy for 7 days depending on which LCD screen you buy (usually 17", such as the 172T, 172X, 173P). If you find a dead pixel* (or malfunctioning one) within 7 days of purchase Samsung will replace it for you either by you calling them for an exchange or exchange at place of purchase. After the 7 days the usual dead pixel* policies apply (such as 3 or so sub-pixels, or 2 close ones, etc etc etc). Worth checking out, though (but not really applicable to laptops).

* Sorry, can't remember if that applied to "dead sub-pixel", but I believe it does.

[[APi]TheMan]

Originally posted by Cadaver:
The "white spots" issue Apple had with a previous batch of LCDs is not the same thing as dead/stuck pixels.

I was referring to monitor defects as a whole. I guess I meant to ask where the line should be drawn regarding defects with LCDs out of the box. Sure an LCD can be expected to have dead pixels eventually, but couldn't the same thing be said of passive matrix displays? Couldn't they have been expected to have ghosting pixels and dead lines of pixels as ibook_steve said? I say it's a flaw in the manufacturing process or LCD technology itself. tooki mentioned that technology is improving which has lead to a higher yield of usable displays and also a lower cost of manufacturing, shouldn't companies be able to either get it right or at least be able to be more flexible with replacements?

Originally posted by Cadaver:
Yes, EVERY company that sells LCDs will have some with stuck pixels. I've seen plenty of monitors on Dells at work with stuck pixels.

Good to hear, I guess if I was involved in a community such as MacNN for PCs I would have heard of some of these cases.

[php]

Originally posted by tooki:
You have to realize that on a 1024x768 display, there are almost 2.5 million subpixels, and every single one of those has to work flawlessly to produce a perfect display.

Frankly, I think it's amazing how many perfect displays they ARE able to produce.

In a typical microprocessor, there are 50 million transistors in an area that is barely visible. If one of those transistors doesn't work then the microprocessor is worthless. Why should it be any different with the transistors in an LCD display? If anything, it should be easier to make all the transistors function correctly in a large LCD panel than in a tiny microprocessor. I think the minimum pixel excuse that computer companies give us is covering for their lack of quality control.

[jld]

Originally posted by php:
In a typical microprocessor, there are 50 million transistors in an area that is barely visible. If one of those transistors doesn't work then the microprocessor is worthless. Why should it be any different with the transistors in an LCD display? If anything, it should be easier to make all the transistors function correctly in a large LCD panel than in a tiny microprocessor. I think the minimum pixel excuse that computer companies give us is covering for their lack of quality control.

[Big Mac]

You're comparing apples to oranges when you cite processor defects in contrast to LCD defects. Obviously processors are produced in a complete different way and aren't subject to the same overt faults as screens. For the record, microprocessors are batched tested after production and run at increasing clock frequencies until they fail. As each fails at a given clock rate, the stable frequency is marked. Some chips run too slowly to be sold; they are discarded. With a mature process, the majority of the chips produced are fast enough to be sold, but even those chips fail at various clock rates. (That is one of the reasons why some of the same model processors are amenable to higher rates of overclocking.) So it isn't as if microprocessors are perfect; we're just less aware of their frailties because processor fabrication is wonderful and always improving. None of this changes the reality of LCD production costs, nor the cost involved with a flawless screen guarantee. Apple recently improved its LCD policy, so if you're unhappy with your screen, respectfully inform the company of that fact.

[DrDre]

I just got a new 12 Inch model yesterday afternoon. So far everything seems to check out just fine, and boy is this thing speedy compared to my old 667mhz TiBook.

I just ran Xbench and got a score of 127.55. Pretty darn fast, considering that a dual G4 1.25 Mhz Powermac with faster drives and a 128 Mb graphics card only scores about 15-20% higher.

Not really a complaint, but given the smaller screen space on the 12", where does everyone place their docks? Along the bottom, or on the side, or just make it hide until needed and use the expose feature?

[romeosc]

I wish there was a way to buy the defective LCD displays cheap, I would love to use them as Picture displays and tv screens for bath etc!