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Eug Wanker · Dec 28, 2006, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Well, I'd imagine that it wouldn't down-sample if the VGA monitor was HDCP compliant, but I don't know how that'd be possible since VGA is analogue. As far as I know, HDCP requires a digital connection and is restricted to DVI/HDMI.

According the info I've come across, HD DVD does not require downsampling over VGA, but the software available is doing it anyway. I'm presuming that the software makers are doing this just to be on the safe side, to appease the content owners.

Yes, HDCP requires a digital connection.

Eug · Jan 2, 2007, 11:47 AM

Cyberlink responds to the alleged AACS hack:

First of all, PowerDVD complies to AACS compliance rules to ensure HD DVD contents are fully protected. Cyberlink is confident that PowerDVD fully protects HD DVD contents.

Secondly, PowerDVD does not keep "Title Keys" in system memory. Cyberlink is not sure how the user got the Title Key and notes that the released tool nor the video on YouTube provides the information on obtaining the Titles Keys.

Thirdly, there are no evidences that the user is using PowerDVD to hack/crack HD DVD video content. He or she was simply using PowerDVD to playback the video that was ripped with other software. PowerDVD supports evo video file format playback.

slugslugslug · Jan 4, 2007, 02:34 AM

Gizmodo just reported that LG is going to show a dual-format player at CES, for release in "early 2007."

Dark Helmet · Jan 4, 2007, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by slugslugslug

Gizmodo just reported that LG is going to show a dual-format player at CES, for release in "early 2007."

Shame it has to be LG.

exca1ibur · Jan 4, 2007, 02:39 AM

Add this to the mix now...

Another Format?

Kerrigan · Jan 4, 2007, 02:45 AM

Whatever the case, I'm just going to get a PS3. That way if Blu-ray goes bust (unlikely) at least I can justify the purchase of the player because of the games.

Dark Helmet · Jan 4, 2007, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Whatever the case, I'm just going to get a PS3. That way if Blu-ray goes bust (unlikely) at least I can justify the purchase of the player because of the games.

Bingo. Blu-Ray or not I would have got a PS3 and I would have got a stand alone blu-ray player anyway if it wasn't for the PS3 so it is win win for me.

icruise · Jan 4, 2007, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

Add this to the mix now...

Another Format?

From the article:

However, among its perceived advantages, HD-DVD players are less expensive and also play standard DVDs, while Blu-ray players do not

Blu-ray players play normal DVDs, don't they? Sounds like the HD-DVD "combo disc" idea confused him.

I don't understand how this "total HD" disc works. Can anyone explain how a single disc can work with both kinds of players? What is its storage capacity?

Kerrigan · Jan 4, 2007, 04:46 AM

I can't believe that's a NYT article, it makes no sense. Beyond confusing the average customer, this is even confusing the journalists and geeks like us. Imagine going into a shop and seeing DVDs, Blu-Rays, HD-DVDs, and Total DVDs.. customers will not like this.

mrtew · Jan 4, 2007, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Eug

Right now, HD DVD.

FWIW, this is a real-time assessment of the race at Amazon.com: The DVD Wars

Looks like BluRay is going to win afterall!

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Imagine going into a shop and seeing DVDs, Blu-Rays, HD-DVDs, and Total DVDs.. customers will not like this.

Well, customers don't like being faced with the choice between BluRay and HDDVD right now so I bet they'd LOVE to see a new format come along and blow both of them away (except of course for the customers that have already chosen one or the other).

mitchell_pgh · Jan 4, 2007, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Well, customers don't like being faced with the choice between BluRay and HDDVD right now so I bet they'd LOVE to see a new format come along and blow both of them away (except of course for the customers that have already chosen one or the other).

The thing is, these new disks will play in stand alone HD DVD players and Blu-Ray players as well.

One disk for both players. I'm guessing here, but this sounds like a not so great thing. They should have just adopted one format so that consumers could just start going HD.

I'm not going HD with movies until there is a clear winner.

Eug Wanker · Jan 4, 2007, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

Blu-ray players play normal DVDs, don't they? Sounds like the HD-DVD "combo disc" idea confused him.

One or two of the early Blu-ray players didn't. I'm not sure if all retail ones do or not.

I don't understand how this "total HD" disc works. Can anyone explain how a single disc can work with both kinds of players? What is its storage capacity?

A combo disc has HD DVD on one side, and a standard DVD on the other.

"Total HD" is similar. HD DVD on one side, and Blu-ray on the other. I don't see these catching on in a big way but who knows.

CheesePuff · Jan 4, 2007, 09:10 AM

Wouldn't a "Total DVD" cost nearly twice as much as the already over-prices discs cost now?

mitchell_pgh · Jan 4, 2007, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by CheesePuff

Wouldn't a "Total DVD" cost nearly twice as much as the already over-prices discs cost now?

Considering they would have to pay royalties to both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, and the disks would cost more... I don't see it being that big, but you never know. That being said, I doubt it would be twice as much.

I would actually support such a disk, but I'm afraid for the Blu-Ray version of the disk as it could be limited to only 25GB of storage space, and the whole "WOW" feature of Blu-Ray is the idea of having a HD moving less compressed spanning over a 50 GB disk (less artifacts, more space for extras, better sound [NOT ALWAYS, but space isn't an issue with Blu-Ray in the same way it CAN be for HD-DVD.]

Eug · Jan 4, 2007, 09:46 AM

Combo HD DVD/DVD discs are about $5 more. That's enough to make them less desirable than pure HD DVD discs.

mdc · Jan 4, 2007, 11:19 AM

We were buying movies at Best Buy last night and they had Slither on a combo disk for $34. My wife wants to watch the movie, but at $34 I'm not buying a movie that expensive. They should keep the "not so good" movies away from the combo format since I'm not paying a premium for them.

We ended up buying Blazing Saddles, Happy Gilmore, Full Metal Jacket, and Sleepy Hollow. I can not find Superman Returns at Target or Best Buy. Amazon I guess.

Eug · Jan 4, 2007, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by mdc

We were buying movies at Best Buy last night and they had Slither on a combo disk for $34. My wife wants to watch the movie, but at $34 I'm not buying a movie that expensive. They should keep the "not so good" movies away from the combo format since I'm not paying a premium for them.

We ended up buying Blazing Saddles, Happy Gilmore, Full Metal Jacket, and Sleepy Hollow. I can not find Superman Returns at Target or Best Buy. Amazon I guess.

Combo would be great if they charged reasonable prices. However, the prices are stupid, and that's why most of the HD DVD people hate combo discs.

Combo discs for Blu-ray up to now had not been feasible, so there are no combo discs at all on the Blu-ray side (yet).

Eug Wanker · Jan 6, 2007, 04:06 AM

The Descent is the first major Blu-ray release which has the Picture-in-Picture video commentary capability.

Except that it doesn't. It has another FULL copy of the movie on disc, but with a commentary video burned into the corner.

Lame. No wonder it needs BD50.

analogika · Jan 6, 2007, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I'm not going HD with movies until there is a clear winner.

That is the obvious consumer reaction. The question I can't, for the life of me, figure out, is how in *hell* any of those marketing morons could have figured that offering TWO DIFFERENT COMPETING formats would mean anything but shooting themselves in the foot?

Are we dealing with a generation of assholes at the studios that are simply too young to remember Video2000/Betamax/VHS? 'Cuz consumers obviously aren't.

mdc · Jan 6, 2007, 10:31 AM

I think the studio bigwigs were so full of their own product that they could believe there was any chance it could fail. They their product would prevail as soon as the public got to use it. There was no chance they could lose.

Now that they realize that isn't the case, they're too far into the battle to give up.

Eug Wanker · Jan 6, 2007, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

That is the obvious consumer reaction. The question I can't, for the life of me, figure out, is how in *hell* any of those marketing morons could have figured that offering TWO DIFFERENT COMPETING formats would mean anything but shooting themselves in the foot?

Are we dealing with a generation of assholes at the studios that are simply too young to remember Video2000/Betamax/VHS? 'Cuz consumers obviously aren't.

No, quite the contrary. We are dealing with a generation of people who know how much much they can make by licencing technology in a format war. Sony "won" with both CD and DVD. Toshiba "won" with DVD.

There a ton of money to be made here.

analogika · Jan 6, 2007, 03:34 PM

That makes no sense.

Money is made the second people actually go out and buy stuff.

Nobody is buying HD players (and media) until they're sure they won't have bet on the wrong horse.

icruise · Jan 6, 2007, 04:48 PM

Yes, I think Eug is right. There's so much money at stake that they are willing to gamble that they will be the winner. If this means inconveniencing the consumer along the way, so be it. Some sort of compromise on a single format wouldn't benefit the companies involved nearly as much. It's sad but true.

I think that with HD movies, the main problem isn't the "what if I choose the wrong format" issue -- it's that most people aren't clamoring for HD movies just yet. Most people have only just switched to DVD. There's no way we're going to see conversion rates anywhere near what we saw going from VHS to DVD. Even if everyone had HDTV (which they don't -- not by a long shot) a lot of people wouldn't think it was worth the money. That's what's going to keep people from buying in the next few years -- lack of interest in the product itself -- and that's a big problem.

butterfly0fdoom · Jan 6, 2007, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

No, quite the contrary. We are dealing with a generation of people who know how much much they can make by licencing technology in a format war. Sony "won" with both CD and DVD. Toshiba "won" with DVD.

There a ton of money to be made here.

But then you consider that Sony has lost plenty of format wars. I support Blu-Ray, but we may as well just throw our support behind HD-DVD, given Sony's track record.

Adam Betts · Jan 6, 2007, 06:23 PM

At this point I don't really care which format will win, I already got a XBOX 360 HD DVD player and Netflix HD DVD rental. I own a few HD DVD movies I want badly but that's it. If Blu-Ray do win the format war, I won't be losing much over this though thank to Netflix.

Personally, I highly prefer HD-DVD over Blu-Ray because of one key feature: IME (In-Movie Experience) which allows you to browse dvd menu and special features while the movie is running without interrupting it. Blu-Ray is attempting to duplicate the feature (called Blu-Wizard or something like that) but it's poorly designed and only available in very few Blu-Ray movies.

Interactivity
Quite apart from the previously mentioned features, one area where HD DVD is providing revolutionary functionality is its advanced interactive features. Check out these highlights:

Chapter Integration: Previously, on standard DVDs, you could only switch to another chapter by backing completely out of the movie (unless you scrolled through manually). Now, with HD DVD, you can bring up the chapter selection seamlessly while still watching the movie.
Bookmarks: Now standard on any HD DVD is a bookmarking ability. This allows you to "save" your favorite scenes from a movie and call them up whenever you're watching the disc. This is possible because of the persistent memory available in every HD DVD player.
In-Movie Experience: Mandatory for all HD DVD players is a secondary video decoder (not available for Blu-ray). This allows the disc to play separate video streams, which on its own completely changes the opportunities available for bonus features. That way, you can not only watch the movie, but also "watch" the behind the scenes features that apply to the scene you're watching simultaneously.
Online: All HD DVD players are required to be network capable. Of course, this is already the case for Xbox 360, but what this allows is for not only the player to be updated if needed, but new content to be distributed on the fly. The common example cited in Major Nelson's interview is that of a director recording more commentary. Now, instead of worrying about buying a new disc, that extra content is available to you as soon as you pop in the disc.

icruise · Jan 6, 2007, 06:57 PM

I don't know about the "video commentary" business, but all the Blu-ray discs I've tried do let you brows the dvd menu and special features without interrupting the movie.

Gossamer · 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by icruise

I think that with HD movies, the main problem isn't the "what if I choose the wrong format" issue -- it's that most people aren't clamoring for HD movies just yet. Most people have only just switched to DVD. There's no way we're going to see conversion rates anywhere near what we saw going from VHS to DVD. Even if everyone had HDTV (which they don't -- not by a long shot) a lot of people wouldn't think it was worth the money. That's what's going to keep people from buying in the next few years -- lack of interest in the product itself -- and that's a big problem.

That's what I was thinking also. VHS to DVD was such a huge jump...besides the quality upgrade, there was no rewinding, no physical tape to get worn out, menus, special features all available there, turn commentaries and stuff on and off...totally different in almost every way. The new high definition formats don't offer nearly the change that DVD did. Mostly just better picture/sound and little things, like browsing menus during the movie and stuff, but nothing huge.

Adam Betts · Jan 6, 2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

I don't know about the "video commentary" business, but all the Blu-ray discs I've tried do let you brows the dvd menu and special features without interrupting the movie.

I was talking about secondary video decoder. I'm pretty sure Blu-ray cannot do that as all Blu-ray players aren't designed to do that AFAIK.

mrtew · Jan 6, 2007, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gossamer

That's what I was thinking also. VHS to DVD was such a huge jump...besides the quality upgrade, there was no rewinding, no physical tape to get worn out, menus, special features all available there, turn commentaries and stuff on and off...totally different in almost every way. The new high definition formats don't offered nearly the change that DVD did. Mostly just better picture/sound and little things, like browsing menus during the movie and stuff, but nothing huge.

Not to mention the fact that back then the movies were a lot better! I was at BestBuy today looking at the HD movies and the XBox HDDVD player to go with my new 42"LCD TV and there honestly wasn't one movie I wanted to see. I couldn't justify spending even $200 to 'enjoy' any of that crap. I'll satisfy myself with watching Letterman and DiscoveryHD and playing PG3 in HD for the time being.

cSurfr · Jan 7, 2007, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by mrtew

Not to mention the fact that back then the movies were a lot better! I was at BestBuy today looking at the HD movies and the XBox HDDVD player to go with my new 42"LCD TV and there honestly wasn't one movie I wanted to see. I couldn't justify spending even $200 to 'enjoy' any of that crap. I'll satisfy myself with watching Letterman and DiscoveryHD and playing PG3 in HD for the time being.

Superman Returns and Batman Begins. . . those are two reasons to buy it right there. M:I: 3 looks pretty insane as well.

Eug Wanker · Jan 7, 2007, 09:35 AM

I didn't really have much desire to buy Batman Begins, but it went on sale for $19.99 (US$17) so I bought it. I have no desire to see Superman Returns again. I got MI:3, but that's because I hadn't seen it in the theatres.

I'm extremely happy to have gotten Casablanca on HD DVD though, among others.

mdc · Jan 7, 2007, 12:01 PM

I've been looking for Casablanca, great movie, and my wife hasn't seen it yet.
I bought Superman Returns recently. I liked it at the cinema and it looks really good on HD-DVD.

Dark Helmet · Jan 7, 2007, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by cSurfr

Superman Returns and Batman Begins. . . those are two reasons to buy it right there. M:I: 3 looks pretty insane as well.

Superman was so bad I couldn't even get though it on an IMAX screen in 3D. No way in hell am I gonna get it on Blu-ray no matter how sweet it looks it won't help the shitty directing and story.

icruise · Jan 7, 2007, 01:32 PM

Did anyone else get an email from Amazon saying that they are giving you a 10% discount on HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies for 2007? I thought they did that for people who bought players from them, but I didn't. I haven't bought anything Blu-ray related from them. The discount does work though.

Eug Wanker · Jan 7, 2007, 05:58 PM

LG has announced its player: $1199 Ouch.

One very strange announcement:

Originally Posted by LG

However, while users can take advantage of all the interactive features included on Blu-ray discs, it is currently limited to simply playing HD DVDs without their interactive functions, Ahn said.

Double ouch.

If this means it can't play back the video commentary from say Batman Begins, then that would totally suck. It would make it just as limited as the Blu-ray side (since Blu-ray currently doesn't support these features anyway).

It sounds like they cheaped out and just made a 1st gen Blu-ray player with improper HD DVD support... for $1200.

The good news is Toshiba has released yet another HD DVD player, the Toshiba HD-A20, which has both 1080p60 and 1080p24 output support, for $599.

Originally Posted by icruise

Did anyone else get an email from Amazon saying that they are giving you a 10% discount on HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies for 2007? I thought they did that for people who bought players from them, but I didn't. I haven't bought anything Blu-ray related from them. The discount does work though.

I believe you have to buy 3 discs to activate the discount (but you get the discount on those 3 discs you buy the first time). From then on it doesn't matter how many you buy. You get 10% all HD DVD and Blu-ray movie purchases.

Originally Posted by mdc

I've been looking for Casablanca, great movie, and my wife hasn't seen it yet.
I bought Superman Returns recently. I liked it at the cinema and it looks really good on HD-DVD.

Really? That's good I guess, but Superman Returns really sucks on DVD. (I saw it on display on a Bravia at the Sony Store and there were artifacts everywhere.)

Adam Betts · Jan 7, 2007, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

Did anyone else get an email from Amazon saying that they are giving you a 10% discount on HD-DVD and Blu-ray movies for 2007? I thought they did that for people who bought players from them, but I didn't. I haven't bought anything Blu-ray related from them. The discount does work though.

As Eug said, if you bought some HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies then it'll apply for you. I got it as well. Nice deal.

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

[...] Superman Returns really sucks on DVD. (I saw it on display on a Bravia at the Sony Store and there were artifacts everywhere.)

Agreed, I have combo HD-DVD and DVD format and I couldn't believe how horrible DVD version is. Very grainy and it made me wonder if they did it on purpose to encourage people to switch to HD-DVD. Superman Returns DVD/HD is a transfer from film directly, not from HD camera. I can not understand why they picked film over raw HD transfer (Superman Returns was shot entirely with Digital HD camera.)

Eug Wanker · Jan 7, 2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Adam Betts

Agreed, I have combo HD-DVD and DVD format and I couldn't believe how horrible DVD version is. Very grainy and it made me wonder if they did it on purpose to encourage people to switch to HD-DVD. Superman Returns DVD/HD is a transfer from film directly, not from HD camera. I can not understand why they picked film over raw HD transfer (Superman Returns was shot entirely with Digital HD camera.)

Sometimes the compressionists don't have access to the original digital source, and the people commissioning the work can't be bothered to get it to them.

Seems tres stupid though, especially for a blockbuster like this one.

icruise · Jan 7, 2007, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Adam Betts

As Eug said, if you bought some HD-DVD or Blu-ray movies then it'll apply for you. I got it as well. Nice deal.

That's the thing. I haven't bought any Blu-ray movies from them or anything else related. The only thing I have done is look at some on their site. Not that I'm really complaining.

Mediaman_12 · Jan 7, 2007, 07:42 PM

Looks like an updated 360 has a built in HDMI socket link inc pic maybe the DVD player with be updated to a full HD-DVD too, with the current external player being just a short term stopgap solution?

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 7, 2007, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mediaman_12

Looks like an updated 360 has a built in HDMI socket link inc pic maybe the DVD player with be updated to a full HD-DVD too, with the current external player being just a short term stopgap solution?

Won't happen. I predict (6-12 months) a "updated" Premium system ($399) that has HDMI and a 120 GB HD (maybe built-in Wi-Fi). The original "Core" system will be no more and the current Premium (no HDMI, 20 GB HD) will lower to $299. They may even up the storage to 60 GB.

6-12 months:

Premium XBox 360 ($399):
HDMI
120 GB HD
Built-In wireless

Core XBox 360 ($299):
Current Premium upgraded to 60 GB HD

Neither system will have built-in HD-DVD. Ever.

- - e r i k - - · Jan 7, 2007, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Neither system will have built-in HD-DVD. Ever.

And no computer will ever need more than 640KB RAM. What are you basing this assertion on?

icruise · Jan 7, 2007, 09:34 PM

Well, Microsoft has said as much.

jokell82 · Jan 7, 2007, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

And no computer will ever need more than 640KB RAM. What are you basing this assertion on?

Most recent assertion from Microsoft (there have been many of them):

Originally Posted by http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars/3

I was more intrigued with the HD DVD drive as a piece of hardware. I asked if we would ever see games use the drive. A firm "no." I asked if we would ever see a 360 with an HD DVD drive built-in. Another firm "no." No hesitation.

Eug Wanker · Jan 7, 2007, 10:19 PM

Lame:

"While the [LG] BH100 appeared to play HD DVD movies just fine, popup menus appeared quite generic as the on-screen chapter selection lacked the thumbnail images seen on other HD DVD players."

Mrjinglesusa · Jan 7, 2007, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

And no computer will ever need more than 640KB RAM. What are you basing this assertion on?

Easy, Microsoft said the 360 will not come with a built-in HD-DVD player, as others ^^^ have correctly pointed out.

icruise · Jan 7, 2007, 10:42 PM

Whether or not that is a good thing depends on your point of view. Many correctly point out that bundling it forces people to buy it, but on the other hand it allows developers to assume that it's there and use it in their games.

- - e r i k - - · Jan 7, 2007, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa

Easy, Microsoft said the 360 will not come with a built-in HD-DVD player, as others ^^^ have correctly pointed out.

The 640 quote was also from Microsoft. Apple said "no video on iPod". What's your point again?

Eug Wanker · Jan 7, 2007, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

And no computer will ever need more than 640KB RAM. What are you basing this assertion on?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/gatesivu.htm

Q. Did you ever say, as has been widely circulated on the Internet, "640K [of RAM] ought to be enough for anybody?"

No! That makes me so mad I can't believe it! Do you realize the pain the industry went through while the IBM PC was limited to 640K? The machine was going to be 512K at one point, and we kept pushing it up. I never said that statement–I said the opposite of that.

Eug Wanker · Jan 8, 2007, 01:32 AM

The current Battlestar Galactica coming to HD DVD in 2007. FINALLY.

HD DVD is also getting 50 GB triple layer HD DVD. WTF, not 45 GB?

- - e r i k - - · Jan 8, 2007, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/gatesivu.htm

Q. Did you ever say, as has been widely circulated on the Internet, "640K [of RAM] ought to be enough for anybody?"

No! That makes me so mad I can't believe it! Do you realize the pain the industry went through while the IBM PC was limited to 640K? The machine was going to be 512K at one point, and we kept pushing it up. I never said that statement–I said the opposite of that.

Yes. Yes. We all know Mr. Gates vehemently denies ever saying that (note that I never attributed it to him). However it is used as an example of how not to interpret the future of technology.