[besson3c]

I'm intrigued by people that do this (Jehova Witnesses, Mormons, etc.)...

You could analyze the "why" from many different angles, but at the end of the day it is clear that there are many things that you are not going to change people's minds on. Perhaps the most simplistic supporting evidence is this forum. If we can't make headway on changing people's minds on issues such as computer platform superiority, global warming, supporting Walmart, vegetarianism, etc. it seems absolutely futile to hope to make headway on an issue as deeply personal as your religion (or lack thereof).

Moreover, I personally believe that trying to convert people actually does far more harm than good, and the problems created from these "failed" conversion attempts far outweigh the few successful conversions. You could even take the stance that what often becomes of these failed conversions is very ungodly.

So, my questions: do you know anybody that does the whole door to door thing or tries to convert as many as possible? Does he/she think this works? What is their success rate? Why do they do it (other than the fact that this is in accordance with what the bible says)?

[Railroader]

Matthew 28:16-20

But the eleven disciples proceeded (P)to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

The bolded part is Jesus' command. The underlined parts are the things required to complete the commandment.

[pooka]

I don't know what the purpose is supposed to be, but I usually turn it into something I find quite entertaining.

[Rumor]

I've found that listening to Cannibal Corpse or Scepultura keeps them at bay.

[besson3c]

What do you do Pooka?

[Chuckit]

My brother was a missionary for two years and converted several families and generally seemed to be relatively well-liked as far as I could tell.

I don't think most people do feel that strongly about religion, at least in many specifics, so it's something on which you can sway their opinion.

[DKeithA]

Please. Was he a Mormon? If so, I can assure you he was not well liked.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by DKeithA 

Please. Was he a Mormon? If so, I can assure you he was not well liked.

Yes, he is. And I'm not sure how you know what most Argentines thought about my brother. I mean, I'm not saying he was universally popular, but he still gets e-mail and phone calls from a lot of people he met there (and I can't imagine international calling is cheap in whatever moon-money they use down there), and he has lots of stories about neighborhood kids wanting to play and stuff. So it seems that he at least wasn't a pariah.

[besson3c]

Is the verse in the bible about converting people a part of the Old or New Testament?

[Chuckit]

Matthew is the first book of the New Testament. Jesus didn't do a lot of speechifying in the Old Testament.

[Rumor]

Isn't Argentina (as well as many other South and Central American countries) extremely devout?

[pooka]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What do you do Pooka?

I politely listen and thank them for their time. Before they leave, I ask them if they've heard of the organization I'm with. NAMBLA.

If their reaction is hostile I do my best to quickly clear things up and state that it's not THAT organization. Once I explain the truth behind the North American Man/Bovine Love Association they're quickly on their merry way.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Isn't Argentina (as well as many other South and Central American countries) extremely devout?

Devoutly Roman Catholic. I'll let you make of that what you will.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Is the verse in the bible about converting people a part of the Old or New Testament?

Seriously?!? Are you this ignorant about the Bible? I suggest logging off da 'NN and actually reading it. You can read many versions here: BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 50 versions and 35 languages. I recommend the New International Version (NIV) or New American Standard Bible (NASB). You can even read an Arabic version there.

What do you think of people who bash your beliefs without knowing the basics about them?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Matthew is the first book of the New Testament. Jesus didn't do a lot of speechifying in the Old Testament.

What he said.

The verse I quoted is one of the last things Jesus said. after he was resurrected.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Isn't Argentina (as well as many other South and Central American countries) extremely devout?

South America in general is religiously devout, but they're also strangely receptive to the idea that the Catholic Church is not the one and only truth. It's one of the best recruiting grounds Mormonism has.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

I've found that listening to Cannibal Corpse or Scepultura keeps them at bay.

Hehe, reminds me of the time I wore a Godsmack t-shirt covered in voodoo dolls and pentagrams to the Vatican. They wouldn't let me through security unless I put on my sweatshirt. So I did. It was a Sepultura sweatshirt.

Good times.

[Atheist]

I used to work with a guy that, when he was around 10 years old, came home from school to find that his mother had been visited by Jehovah Witnesses.... and she had converted that same day. The father was agnostic/atheist (not really sure what exactly) and he just ignored the wife. His younger siblings converted (although at that age, someone can tell you the moon is made of cheese and you'll believe them) so he was sort of left in limbo with his generic Protestant beliefs. He said it was weird suddenly not having birthdays or other holidays. I find it a fascinating story how someone can just decide to convert in a single day like that.

When I lived in the States and was bothered by these people I would just look them square in the eye and say "I'm not interested" and close the door. None of this listening politely crap. I didn't invite them to my door and I certainly wasn't about to waste any time listing to their tales.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

When I lived in the States and was bothered by these people I would just look them square in the eye and say "I'm not interested" and close the door. None of this listening politely crap. I didn't invite them to my door and I certainly wasn't about to waste any time listing to their tales.

And that is exactly what most expect people will do. But they are certainly not discouraged.

I once answered the door wearing my "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Ben Franklin" t-shirt when some Mormons knocked. They were very young, looked like they were barely out of high school. They smiled, said "hello", and quickly said "good bye". The funny thing is that I lived only about 4 houses away from a JWC (I don't like calling them "Jehovah Witnesses" and the never knocked on my door in the 5 years I lived there.

BTW: I am not a door-to-door evangelist. I don't think this is a very good interpretation of what Jesus told Christians to do. I am annoyed by them as much as the next guy.

[Doofy]

What is this "answering the door" thing that you people speak of?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

a JWC (I don't like calling them "Jehovah Witnesses")

C = Cult?

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I once answered the door wearing my "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Ben Franklin" t-shirt when some Mormons knocked. They were very young, looked like they were barely out of high school. They smiled, said "hello", and quickly said "good bye". The funny thing is that I lived only about 4 houses away from a JWC (I don't like calling them "Jehovah Witnesses" and the never knocked on my door in the 5 years I lived there.

I've even seen the Mormon boys here in St. Maarten. The poor things look miserable walking around in their shirt and tie in the blistering sun... their faces beet red and covered in sweat. It's quite a juxtaposition to the tourists in their shorts and floral shirts.

BTW: I am not a door-to-door evangelist. I don't think this is a very good interpretation of what Jesus told Christians to do. I am annoyed by them as much as the next guy.

One of the more harmless [mis]interpretations nonetheless.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

C = Cult?

*Bingo*

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

What is this "answering the door" thing that you people speak of?

It's an American custom where when someone knocks on the door you open it politely because you know that it's not going to be some yob trying to take advantage of your unarmed and helpless self with no hope of timely assistance from a hopelessly ineffective yet still ridiculously Orwellian police force.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

One of the more harmless [mis]interpretations nonetheless.

Annoying nonetheless. And certainly doesn't help their cause.

The ironic thing is that I think the majority of the groups that interpret the verses as justification to go door-to-door actually violate the meaning of the verse in other ways in the sense that they isolate themselves in almost all other regards to life.*

I think the verses (roughly interpreted) are to be read as this: don't isolate yourselves in communes and limit interaction with the rest of the world. Go out into the world and live amongst non-believers and live a life worthy of Christ. Teach others about your beliefs, continue teaching, "baptize" (read immerse) in your beliefs, and hold other believers accountable to the commands of Christ. Roughly.





*Not all groups who go door-to-door act this way.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

What is this "answering the door" thing that you people speak of?

It's like answering the phone. But with a door.

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Matthew is the first book of the New Testament. Jesus didn't do a lot of speechifying in the Old Testament.

You mean Bible (Rev.B)?

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I think the verses (roughly interpreted) are to be read as this: don't isolate yourselves in communes and limit interaction with the rest of the world. Go out into the world and live amongst non-believers and live a life worthy of Christ. Teach others about your beliefs, continue teaching, "baptize" (read immerse) in your beliefs, and hold other believers accountable to the commands of Christ. Roughly.

I commend you on your moderate and thoughtful interpretation... however, it's way too benign. Christianity is much more intriguing with the fire and brimstone and fanaticism.

[Chuckit]

I'm much more annoyed by the kids they send to my house each month to try and "make friends" with me because they know I used to be a member. Like, I have your phone number, people — if I want to hear about your alcohol-free dances, I can call and find out. And it's like they think their act of coming over when they're ordered to do so is going to warm my cold heathen heart and make me feel some kind of friendship with them — that's just plain insulting.

[pissofflateralus]

omg they missionaries are so annoying!!!! atheism all the way!

YouTube - Door To Door Atheists Bother Mormons

[brassplayersrock²]

do you have a website with links to lame ass videos or something rob?

[placebo1969]

I have to say, the door to door people "saved" me once. I was in college and accidentally turned off my alarm instead of hitting snooze. Of course, it was the morning of an important final. I heard a knock at the door and there was an older man, presumably his adult son and his son. A little dazed, I opened the door and was talking with them for a moment when I realized that I had overslept and needed to get to my final. A few minutes later I was running to class, making it just in time. If it wasn't for them I would have probably missed my final.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

do you have a website with links to lame ass videos or something rob?

I actually thought the video was kind of funny. "We follow the teachings of a man named Charles Darwin."

[red rocket]

Since I never have my door bell on, I don't really get much of this. The one time, I was about to go out and found myself face to face with some Mormons who must have been silently ringing for a couple of minutes. I told them I didn't have time and wasn't interested, anyway, so they just gave me some leaflet about lions playing with sheep or something, and left. Another day, I found an advert from J. Edgar Hoover's Witnesses in my mailbox. Had a cartoon of some hot red haired babe riding a dragon on it and kept criticising all the other religions for suggesting that people had souls and such. Sort of found myself agreeing in part, but how they can seriously expect anyone to convert because of that is beyond me.

[BadKosh]

You can pretty much STOP the intrusion by using a sign like this:


NO SOLICITORS!

This means:

No kids selling candy, magazines or coupon books

No firewood salesmen

No religious knuckle heads

No political petitioners

[besson3c]

I honestly think that this sort of conversion often does more harm than it does good. Has anybody tried to make an argument like this to these people?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Matthew 28:16-20 ... The bolded part is Jesus' command. The underlined parts are the things required to complete the commandment.

He was speaking to the apostles, not to Christians in general. Not all Christians are expected to evangelize unless they have been "called."

Romans 12:4-8
12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, and all the members don’t have the same function, 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 12:6 Having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, if prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of our faith; 12:7 or service, let us give ourselves to service; or he who teaches, to his teaching; 12:8 or he who exhorts, to his exhorting: he who gives, let him do it with liberality; he who rules, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I honestly think that this sort of conversion often does more harm than it does good. Has anybody tried to make an argument like this to these people?

Considering they have much more relevant experience than you do and have probably put a good deal of thought into the matter already, it would have to be a pretty powerful argument. Would you care to make this case?

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

He was speaking to the apostles, not to Christians in general. Not all Christians are expected to evangelize unless they have been "called."

In the case of Mormons (who are the most plentiful missionaries everywhere I've been), all the missionaries are called.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Considering they have much more relevant experience than you do and have probably put a good deal of thought into the matter already, it would have to be a pretty powerful argument. Would you care to make this case?

Yes I would, actually, but on a secular basis...

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

He was speaking to the apostles, not to Christians in general. Not all Christians are expected to evangelize unless they have been "called."

I went to a talk by The Traveling Team once on world missions and it was their position that the only people God "calls" are those He doesn't want to go evangelize. It's made fairly clear that Christians are expected to.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Yes I would, actually, but on a secular basis...

Well, feel free. I'm interested to hear.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Well, feel free. I'm interested to hear.

I took a philosophy course where I was exposed to rationalist vs. post modern philosophical thinking... Mind you, it was only a mild taste, so I'm hardly an expert.. still, I've been thinking about it since.


A rationalist philosopher thought that language was an accurate vessel for conveying meaning, and that stuff can be rationally explained so that knowledge of the universe could effectively be "given" to anybody with the capacity to absorb these rational ideas.

A post-modern philosopher says that there is no "truth", and that everything is based on and shaped by our own experiences.

Most modern philosophers, I believe, incorporate both ideas - each has their place. For example, if you had to explain the concept of love to some entity that had absolutely no concept as to what love is, it would be very hard to rationalize it - it is much better experienced.

Religion is the same way. There is no way that somebody could simply explain away their religion to somebody else. It is an experience, an emotional one at that, it needs to be experienced. You cannot give anybody this experience, all we can do is rationalize it, and this simply does not work.

I often think that the many centuries of religious wars have been triggered by the righteous who have wanted to convert by sword using this same rational means. If you accept my notion that a religious experience cannot be rationalized, this means that the act is an utter waste of time, and therefore since we know that war is ungodly we are doing nothing except playing with the possibility of invoking conflict.

I'm not saying that people cannot be converted, but there has to be an act of willingness and desire. While going door to door you may find willing, you will also find plenty of unwilling, and where conflict is invoked it is likely that those involved will be pushed even further away from what is being fought over.

[nonhuman]

It definitely isn't true that 'we know that war is ungodly'. Many if not most of the various gods that people have worshipped throughout history have thrown their support behind at least one war.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There is no way that somebody could simply explain away their religion to somebody else. It is an experience, an emotional one at that, it needs to be experienced. You cannot give anybody this experience, all we can do is rationalize it, and this simply does not work.

[SNIP]

I'm not saying that people cannot be converted, but there has to be an act of willingness and desire. While going door to door you may find willing, you will also find plenty of unwilling, and where conflict is invoked it is likely that those involved will be pushed even further away from what is being fought over.

This doesn't strike me as a compelling argument against proselytizing at all — missionaries are well aware of all of this. Any missionary with more than a week of experience will have figured out that you can't win them all, and no religion I know of with door-to-door missionaries teaches them to seek out conflict with prospects.

Essentially, the argument fails from a practical standpoint — it doesn't show that doing missionary work is a net loss. There are two possible situations here:

1. You preach to somebody who's willing to hear and he's converted.
2. You meet somebody who isn't interested and he tells you to buzz off.

So in the worst-case scenario (where Situation 2 occurs exclusively), missionary work is a waste of time but not actually harmful. In any other scenario, doing missionary work brings you closer to your goal than not doing it.

(You might suggest that there's a Situation 3 where the person was just about to convert, but meeting a missionary pisses him off so much that he turns around and becomes a hardened atheist. This doesn't seem likely enough to be worth considering, though.)

[besson3c]

Scenario number 2 can help fuel vitriol, religious tirades, etc. too... It pushes that person further away, and possibly others within that person's sphere of influence.

[Chuckit]

Like I said, I don't think somebody who was open to the idea in the first place is generally going to be that put off by the fact that a missionary said hello. If they're going on anti-religious tirades just because you approached them, maybe that's not your target audience in the first place. You didn't lose anything by trying — you can't lose something that you never had. I really doubt it's common that somebody would have joined a religion if only the religion's members had not spoken to him.

Basically, the entire industry of marketing is based around the idea that your idea is not correct. Salesmen sell things by selling them, not by sitting meekly at home and hoping somebody will just decide to walk in out of the blue. Yeah, if a salesman acts like a complete jackass, that will hurt his company's image, but just going out there and selling your product is generally considered to be a good idea.

[besson3c]

Perhaps you are right Chuckit.. I didn't think about missionaries as sales people, in the traditional sense...

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

What is this "answering the door" thing that you people speak of?

I went to visit my father in Greece in August this year. On the table sitting outside on the porch I saw a familiar looking booklet talking about the "paradise that awaits us." It was written in Greek. I looked at the back page. "Copyright The Watchtower Society, New York."

I looked at my father, held up the booklet and asked, "They have Jehovah's Witnesses in Greece?" He goes, "Yes. One of them stopped by last week, while I was outside in the front garden. I told them to leave the damn booklet and get off my property."

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

I went to visit my father in Greece in August this year...

This also reminds me of another encounter with Witnesses:

One day when I was still in high school, my father and I were at home together when a couple of Witnesses showed up on our doorstep. They were a man and a woman, both well-dressed, and appeared to be in their 40s.

(Background: My father has only ever spoken Greek with me my whole life. At the time of this episode, he had been in the US for 18 years and could speak English fairly well).

I knew exactly who I was dealing with, so I decided to have some fun with them.

Me: (opening door) Ne? Ti thelete? (Yes? What do you want?)

Man: (big smile, salesman voice) Hi! We're Jehovah's Witnesses, and we'd like to share our faith with you.

Woman: May we come in?

Me: (confused look) Signomi, den sas katalaveno. (I'm sorry, I don't understand you).

The two give each other strange looks.

Man: Are either of your parents home?

Me: Den milao Anglika. (I don't speak English)

By this time, my father had come to the door and asked me what was going on. I told him (in Greek, right in front of the Witnesses) who they were and what they wanted, and what I was doing, and invited him to join me, which he did.

Dad: Pios isaste? (Who are you?)

Woman: (to man) I don't think they speak much English, Tom.

(WTF? Much? We weren't speaking ANY English!)

Man: (very slowly) HI. WE'RE J-E-H-O-V-A-H-S W-I-T-N-E-S-S-E-S!

Woman: WE WANT TO SHARE OUR FAITH WITH YOU!

(Er, we're not deaf. We just don't understand what you're saying. We can hear you just fine).

My father and I just looked at each other and talked between ourselves and kept giving them confused looks.

Man: (to woman) I think they're speaking Spanish. Let's see if we can find Jose.

(Jose? This was getting better and better)

Woman: (to man) I think you're right. (to us) WE'LL BE BACK.

They leave, but not before handing us a few issues of The Watchtower and Awake, which we both took and looked at, but upside-down. I looked at my father and said, "This ought to be fun." My father agreed. About a half hour later, they came back, and Jose was with them. My father and I both answered the door.

Woman: (to us) THIS IS JOSE. HE SPEAKS SPANISH.

Me: (to Dad, in Greek) No sh*t.

Jose: Hola. Somos Testigos de Jehová, y queremos compartir nuestra fe con ustedes.

Dad: (to me, laughing) Kapios prepei na ton pei oti imaste Ellines. (Someone should tell him we're Greeks).

Jose: (scratches his head, and turns to the other two) That's not Spanish.

Man: Well, what language is it?

Jose: I don't know. I think it's Hindu (sic) or something.

(HINDU??? or "Hindi" as is the correct term)

Man: SORRY TO BOTHER YOU. BUT WE KNOW OUR FAITH IS THE TRUE WAY.

They left, after handing us more magazines. My father and I never laughed so hard in our lives.

[ApeInTheShell]

"No Solicitors" signs do not work well. We have one at the entrance of our neighborhood and my Dad has posted signs on the lawn or on the door. People just ignore them.

I think there is an opportunity to share your faith whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or Mormon and most of the time you won't heed the calling. Most people go out of their way not to talk to people about God. Because it brings up those uncomfortable conversations. We are given a lot of opportunities to talk to people about God in our lives but many times we will refuse to do it. Years down the road an opportunity will come up and you will refuse because of a bad experience you had with door to door religious people.
Now I am just repeating myself. At any rate an opportunity could be a chance to share your faith with someone or a new job you are not sure will work with your busy schedule. Maybe a stranger gave you a lump sum of cash to go to school but its not Yale or Harvard. It's Brown University.