[moki]

I condemn the burning of the mosque in the Netherlands; it will only lead to more tension. However I believe it's quite true that the battleground between militant, extremist Islam will be in Europe, not in the USA. It'll be interesting -- and extremely important -- how this all pans out.

from: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...s/10117092.htm

.....

Europeans Face Tough Choices on Islam

BRIAN MURPHY

Associated Press

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Europe's complex interplay with Islam appears to stand at a tipping-point, and the slaying of a Dutchman who made a movie critical of Islam could indicate one direction in which it is headed. "The Muslims say they're scared," said mourner Nicolette Toering. "No, we're scared."

Dutch authorities were investigating whether the chief suspect, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan man detained shortly after the attack, acted alone out of rage or had links to wider extremist networks.

A five-page letter pinned to the body of Theo van Gogh, brutally murdered Tuesday as he was riding his bike down a busy boulevard in Amsterdam, called for Muslims to rise up against the "infidel enemies" in the West.

Other messages - later left at the sidewalk shrine where the 47-year-old filmmaker's throat was slashed - dripped with equal venom against radical Islam. "Enemies live among us," read one missive in a bed of flowers, votive candles and crosses.

The attack has underscored the hard political and social choices that European leaders face about Muslims and the wider Islamic world.

In December, European Union leaders will decide whether to overlook widespread public objections and move ahead with membership talks with Turkey, a Muslim nation of about 70 million people and a galloping birthrate that could push it past Germany's population in a generation.

European police agencies have sharply boosted cooperation against suspected Islamic terrorist groups following the March train bombings in Spain that killed 191 people. Washington's European allies in Iraq are reassessing their levels of military and commercial support following waves of attacks, kidnappings and beheadings blamed on Islamic militants.

EU officials last month signed the text of a proposed EU Constitution that still could face opposition from voters demanding a clear reference to Europe's Christian history.

But those big issues fade on the streets of many European centers. Here - even in places like tolerant Amsterdam - it's often expressed as a gnawing feeling that militant factions in Islamic immigrant communities are gaining ground and chipping away at values such as free speech and secular politics.

"There is a general feeling that a social collision is becoming inevitable," said Jan Rath, co-director of the Institute for Migration and Ethnic Studies at the University of Amsterdam. "People think it's been building for years and now finally coming to the surface."

The landmarks along the way included the 1989 death threat "fatwa," or religious edict, against British writer Salman Rushdie for alleged insults to Islam in "The Satanic Verses," the rise of neo-Fascist movements, the assassination of Dutch anti-immigrant politician Pim Fortuyn in 2002 and France's ongoing showdown with Muslims over a ban on headscarves and other religious apparel in schools.

"My impression is the European voices that say, `Everyone is equal, but we are more equal than Muslims,' are growing," Rath said.

The Netherlands offers a good vantage point to gauge changing attitudes toward Muslim communities across Europe - which have grown more than 100 percent in the past 15 years, according to U.N. reports. Some sources place the Muslim population as high as 13.5 million in Western Europe, or more than 2 percent of the population, in addition to more than 6 million native-born Muslims in the Balkans.

Unlike the French or Spanish, the Dutch long had little direct contact with Islam apart from a colonial presence in distant Indonesia that ended in 1949. Muslim immigrants began arriving following World War II as reconstruction labor - as they did in Germany and other countries.

The workers, mostly Turks, assimilated well into Dutch society. Moroccans and other North Africans began arriving in the 1970s and 1980s, when more lenient laws allowed men to bring in their families.

But the situation in Holland was getting tougher. Jobs were more scarce - especially for the Moroccan immigrant children - and some politicians began trying to connect the rising crime rate with the swelling Muslim community: now about 1 million in a country of 16 million people.

Last year, a parliament member, Geert Wilders, pressed for a five-year ban on immigration from Turkey and Morocco. Dutch anti-terrorist agents, meanwhile, have intensified probes into alleged radical recruitment among young Muslims.

Van Gogh - a distant relative of the famous 19th-century Dutch painter Vincent Van Gogh - often tested the boundaries of free expression by denouncing Muslims in the most graphic terms. His last work, "Submission," a joint project with Somali-born lawmaker Ayaan Hirsi Ali, attacked the treatment of women under Islam.

The filmmaker's fans were as passionate as his detractors.

"He was trying to warn us about the dangers of radical Islam," said teacher Geert Plas as he visited the site where Van Gogh was ambushed. "Now maybe we'll listen. To me this is not just a small event. It's part of the World Trade Center and Madrid. We must see this."

The letter pinned to the victim's body also threatened death to Hirsi Ali, who has gone into hiding, and predicted the downfall of the "infidel enemies of Islam" in Europe, America and the Netherlands.

"The jihad (holy war) has come to the Netherlands," parliament speaker Jozias van Aartsen said.

The memorials that piled up on the dark brick sidewalk often crossed the line from sympathy to seething recriminations. "This is the true face of Islam," said a handwritten message. A framed poem called "Imam" ends with a stanza: "If you want to improve the world, start with yourself and your faith."

A banner waved from a fence: "Theo rests his case."

Christian prayer cards, crosses and biblical passages sat amid the flowers - a rare religious outpouring in one of Europe's most secular states.

"This doesn't just say something about the Netherlands," said Baukje Prins, assistant professor of social philosophy at Holland's Groninjen University. "It is an example of how international relations have become polarized."

At a mosque near the murder site, Friday prayers were dominated by talk of the slaying - sprinkled with worry about a possible backlash.

"We are in danger," a Moroccan man told a group of friends sitting in a circle on a carpeted floor.

"No, no," another man said. "We cannot give in to fear. This is our home now."

Moulay Idrissi listened and shook his head.

"I'm afraid. I can't deny it," said Idrissi, who emigrated from Morocco in 1978. "I feel respect for Muslims is falling away in Europe. When people have no respect, anything can happen."

A few hours later, suspected arsonists set fire to a mosque in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, but no injuries were reported.

A 22-year-old student, Abdul Salam, said he tries to tell Christian friends that Muslims have been in Europe since the Moors crossed into Spain in the 8th century.

"So I don't know what to think when people say I don't belong here because I'm Muslim," he said. "I was born here. I don't even speak Arabic. I am European. That's what I feel. That's what I am."

But Salam represents just one side of an internal struggle within Muslim communities in Europe, said Akbar Ahmed, a professor of Islamic studies at American University in Washington.

"Right now the West sees all Islam as a kind of monolith and wipes away all nuances," said Ahmed. "Some want to draw boundaries around Islam in Europe. Other Muslims want to deal with non-Muslims in a broad and tolerant way. It's not new to Islam. It's just new to Europe."

[CreepingDeth]

Washington Times

Article might also supplement the posted article.

[TETENAL]

And what's your point?

[Logic]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
And what's your point?

Just a question. Do his posts, his attitude and his minions remind you of anything in Germany's history?

[Joshua]

Originally posted by Logic:
Just a question. Do his posts, his attitude and his minions remind you of anything in Germany's history?

Isn't labeling him a Nazi for criticizing Islam kind of like other people labeling you an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel?

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
Just a question. Do his posts, his attitude and his minions remind you of anything in Germany's history?

You are truly unbelievable. If anyone is displaying an utterly blind ideology of hatred, a single-minded determination to see the world from a fixed and craven point of view, it's you.

Anyone who disagrees with you is stupid. Anything and everything America has ever done is bad and evil; there is no upside. Any and all badness in the world can be attributed to America. Scapegoating and demagoging_ at its finest. You add nothing to the discussion except vitriol and polarization.

Sigh.

I really don't buy painting "Islam" or "Muslims" with a broad brush at all. I have a number of good friends of mine who are Muslim, and none of this garbage applies to any of them.

However, it's getting clear that if other Muslims don't take care of the problem of extremists in their midsts, someone else is going to have to. It's sad, really, because Islam really is a very peaceful and pleasant religion. Much more personal and less institutional than Christianity; I rather like it, really, and if I were religious, I would be much more attracted to Islam or Buddhism than to Christianity. There are certainly issues that need to be worked out, however, with these extremists who are perverting the religion.

[Logic]

Originally posted by Joshua:
Isn't labeling him a Nazi for criticizing Islam kind of like other people labeling you an anti-Semite for criticizing Israel?

No. Because Israel doesn't represent Judaism.

This place has gotten so infested with Islamophobia, racism, xenophobia and disgusting people that I cannot reach any other conclusion that the US right is filled with Neo Nazis. The same ignorant, inbred kind of people I spent most of my time in Sweden fighting. I was fighting people like moki, Pachead, dcolton, et al side by side with Jews, Arabs, South Americans and people from outside of Europe.

That the macnn staff then allowed the racist pig vmarks to become a moderator has given people like those I mentioned above a green light to continue their racist attacks on 1/4th of the human race and have allowed them to spew their hateful speech on this forum.


This will be my last post here since I have no will to continue to generate revenue for macnn and I have no interest in talking to people like them. But this will not be the last time you xenophobic neo nazis will hear from me.

Good bye.

[moki]

Originally posted by Logic:
This place has gotten so infested with Islamophobia, racism, xenophobia and disgusting people that I cannot reach any other conclusion that the US right is filled with Neo Nazis. The same ignorant, inbred kind of people I spent most of my time in Sweden fighting. I was fighting people like moki, Pachead, dcolton, et al side by side with Jews, Arabs, South Americans and people from outside of Europe.

[snip]

This will be my last post here since I have no will to continue to generate revenue for macnn and I have no interest in talking to people like them. But this will not be the last time you xenophobic neo nazis will hear from me.

Good bye.

This "xenophobic neo nazi" happens to live with and be friends with people of many different races, religions, and cultures. My girlfriend is Malaysian, for god's sake. Your broad-brush that you've so ignorantly wielded is worse than anything you're condemning.

I have ALWAYS been extremely clear to differentiate between Islam the religion and the scumbags who are perverting it.

You fail to see that you've become what you profess to hate.

What exactly in this article, or anything I've stated here is "racist"? It's an extremely important issue that the world is facing currently; it needs to be discussed. I condemned the burning of the mosque, because I find it repugnant, not to mention unproductive.

I'm absolutely amazed that someone who is railing against ignorance, arrogance, stereotyping, etc., can possibly embody it so well.

[Joshua]

Originally posted by Logic:
No. Because Israel doesn't represent Judaism.

This place has gotten so infested with Islamophobia, racism, xenophobia and disgusting people that I cannot reach any other conclusion that the US right is filled with Neo Nazis. The same ignorant, inbred kind of people I spent most of my time in Sweden fighting. I was fighting people like moki, Pachead, dcolton, et al side by side with Jews, Arabs, South Americans and people from outside of Europe.

That the macnn staff then allowed the racist pig vmarks to become a moderator has given people like those I mentioned above a green light to continue their racist attacks on 1/4th of the human race and have allowed them to spew their hateful speech on this forum.


This will be my last post here since I have no will to continue to generate revenue for macnn and I have no interest in talking to people like them. But this will not be the last time you xenophobic neo nazis will hear from me.

Good bye.

Well, I'm impressed that you managed to get that load of bullshit out without choking on it. Some of the people on this board are, in fact, bigoted a-holes. But you aren't "fighting" them, you're just mirroring them. Bye-bye.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by Logic:
No. Because Israel doesn't represent Judaism.

This place has gotten so infested with Islamophobia, racism, xenophobia and disgusting people that I cannot reach any other conclusion that the US right is filled with Neo Nazis. The same ignorant, inbred kind of people I spent most of my time in Sweden fighting. I was fighting people like moki, Pachead, dcolton, et al side by side with Jews, Arabs, South Americans and people from outside of Europe.

That the macnn staff then allowed the racist pig vmarks to become a moderator has given people like those I mentioned above a green light to continue their racist attacks on 1/4th of the human race and have allowed them to spew their hateful speech on this forum.


This will be my last post here since I have no will to continue to generate revenue for macnn and I have no interest in talking to people like them. But this will not be the last time you xenophobic neo nazis will hear from me.

Good bye.

I don't care. You're a closet anti-semite who masks his hatred as love of Palestine. You have tortured Logic.

I assume I'm also an inbred. I know, I should stop buying so many gun racks, cut my mullet and stop making out with my cousins.

You sir, are the racist. You hate Jews. Every post is the same: Jews=evil. Take your "Democracy vs Jewishness" thread. You call people fighting for a free, sovereign Iraq traitors, but slyly say terrorists are traitors. Make up your damn mind. Are the people for freedom traitors to Islam or are the terrorist assholes the traitors? I know you enjoy the usual PSM marches screaming anti-semitic garbage. I know you have more important thing to do�So�

Adieu.

[moki]

To be perfectly clear here. I think radical Islam relates to Islam as a whole in the same way that the KKK related to Christianity. That is to say, not at all. A perverted offshoot that does not reflect the views of the vast, vast majority.

The difference is that the KKK didn't (or couldn't) kill people in other countries, and we dealt with them ourselves. The same is not true of radical Islam; or at the very least, not enough is being done to combat it by Islamic countries and people.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Logic:
Just a question. Do his posts, his attitude and his minions remind you of anything in Germany's history?

No. What reminds me of pre-WW2 Germany is the European reaction to Muslims, burnings of Mosques, racial profiling, being unable to wear hijab, hate speech from the populace... damn, I can't believe so many Europeans are acting like such Nazis. Combine that with the swelling ranks of White Supremacists, it all looks really bad. How do suppose the EU is going to deal with this intolerable behavior? Or, do you think they'll just tatoo Muslims and herd them into isolated places so they can keep an eye on them? I suppose they can always move here to the US where they can have religious freedom, others have done that in the past...

[Spliff]

Originally posted by Logic:
Just a question. Do his posts, his attitude and his minions remind you of anything in Germany's history?

****, can we not have discussions in here without someone making comparisons to Nazi Germany? Bloody hell. It is 2004, not 1939. There is no point in making comparisons because the term "Nazi" is too loaded to be useful here. It's just going to piss off or offend someone and the comparison adds nothing to the discussion.

[Spliff]

Originally posted by Logic:
I was fighting people like moki, Pachead, dcolton, et al side by side with Jews, Arabs, South Americans and people from outside of Europe.

Don't compare moki and Pachead. Moki actually has something useful to bring to these discussions, whether you agree with him or not. Pachead, on the other hand, should've been banned long ago. He's a conservative lapdog that barks the same mindless message over and over again. Zimphire and Cash have been banned for much less than the drivel that Pachead spouts.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Spliff:
Don't compare moki and Pachead. Moki actually has something useful to bring to these discussions, whether you agree with him or not. Pachead, on the other hand, should've been banned long ago. He's a conservative lapdog that barks the same mindless message over and over again. Zimphire and Cash have been banned for much less than the drivel that Pachead spouts.

Moki, you only get upset (and rightfully so, I might add) when Logic writes something that's out of line or are you going to correct the inaccuracies of others as well?

[Saad]

I disagree. I think the main stage for American/Muslim conflict is Iraq, and will be centered on that region. Elsewhere in the world, anti-American/west terrorists will probably target places that are convenient and open to attack.

There is little doubt, however, that Europe will sustain many more attacks.

[PacHead]

. . . . . .

[PacHead]

Originally posted by moki:
However I believe it's quite true that the battleground between militant, extremist Islam will be in Europe, not in the USA. It'll be interesting -- and extremely important -- how this all pans out.

This is 100% true, I've been saying similiar things for quite awhile. This scenario is highly likely, and will be taking place in the coming years. We've only just seen the beginning. After 9-11, the sickos have gotten emboldened, and they're starting to come out of their caves more and more.

As for whiny little socialist midgets who want me banned - Yep, my predictions (which turn out to be more and more true), and the factual posts I come with - Yep - now there's a good reason for banning me. I know if I was a wackjob jihadist, I'd want people like me banned also. Jihadists would probably stab me in the chest, while attaching some silly written kuran text to it, if they could.

This is the USA (freedom of speech and all), and not Jihadistan, and I'll say what I please about evil people. More and more people will realize the danger these loons who have declared war upon us pose, and their sick, disgusting plans.

[y0y0]

I find this thread sort of typical in the way it makes actual debate completely useless. There're so many acusations flying around that any attempt to discuss the actual topic simply gets ignored. Sad, but normal.

I think some obvious things should be pointed out here with respect to Europe and Islam:

1. As a percentage of the population, there are a lot more Moslems in Europe than there are in the US.

2. Europe is not an as inclusive society in general as the US is. Some countries have tried bvery hard to integrate minorities, such as Holland, but some migrants simply do not even attempt to integrate.

3. Europe is a lot closer geographically to the Islamic world than the US is.

what all this means for Europe and Ilsamic extremism I don't know

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by moki:
I condemn the burning of the mosque in the Netherlands; it will only lead to more tension. However I believe it's quite true that the battleground between militant, extremist Islam will be in Europe, not in the USA. It'll be interesting -- and extremely important -- how this all pans out.

Where the battleground will be is irrelevant. Islamic extremism will continue to build up strength as long as the West keeps targeting Muslims and interfering in Middle Eastern affairs.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Where the battleground will be is irrelevant. Islamic extremism will continue to build up strength

Of course it is not irrelevent. It sure as hell won't be taking place on US soil. We don't have too many of the crazies here.

I offer these words: Good luck to ya, Europe.

[Saad]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Of course it is not irrelevent. It sure as hell won't be taking place on US soil. We don't have too many of the crazies here.

I offer these words: Good luck to ya, Europe.

The largest attack in the history of the extremist factions took place in the most populous city in the nation. It has already happened here. It only takes a few crazies to pull off an attack.

[y0y0]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
Where the battleground will be is irrelevant. Islamic extremism will continue to build up strength as long as the West keeps targeting Muslims and interfering in Middle Eastern affairs.

That is overdoing it, I think. You, a muslim living in England, blame the generic "West" for all the problems of the Islamic world and the Middle East. Yet, the West itself has by no means a similar policy towards the Middle East, or Islam for that matter. While the US and the UK have invaded Iraq, France has objected to this. While the US has been generally supportive of Israel over the last four years ( Clinton's administration tried at least to get the Israelis and Palestinians to a peace agreement), the UK and France have generally argued that the Palestinians' rights should be respected.

Not only this but one would think that Muslim nations would take some responsibility for their own actions. Blaming their own less than democratic governments on the West is an easy cop out and a nice way of avoiding the responsibility for their own actions. And what about the facts of life in Islamic nations. If you, as a Muslim woman, were to live in say Pakistan, in one of the rural provinces, you would have very little say over your own life. Or what about Afghanistan? If you had lived there under the Taliban, your view of life would have been behind a Burqha and you would have had less than no rights.

While I do agree that the "West" does meddle in the Middle East, and that Israel does treat the Palestinians in a less than human manner, the Palestinians do not exactly help things with their suicide bombings and niether do the Muslims in Europe who show more affiliation to the MIddle East than the countries in which they live, which brings me to the question: If those Muslims in Europe who feel they would be happier in an Islamic Republic so badly want one, why don't they simply go and live in one instead of abusing the freedoms given to them in Europe? What did Europe do to them to earn their terror?

[Saad]

Originally posted by y0y0:
That is overdoing it, I think. You, a muslim living in England, blame the generic "West" for all the problems of the Islamic world and the Middle East. Yet, the West itself has by no means a similar policy towards the Middle East, or Islam for that matter. While the US and the UK have invaded Iraq, France has objected to this. While the US has been generally supportive of Israel over the last four years ( Clinton's administration tried at least to get the Israelis and Palestinians to a peace agreement), the UK and France have generally argued that the Palestinians' rights should be respected.

France (and Russia) opposed the war not because of some moral obligation, but because they had substantial contracts with Hussein's regime. I think that such investments could be fairly labelled as meddling.

[swrate]

Machine Gun

Taking the Taliban away, pushing them west and secluding them will not change much to the reality on the ground, habitations destroyed, miserable living conditions food/water/hygien and farmers growing opium to survive.
Lahore, with thousands of Afghan refugees�
There, Pakistanis all have guns, each households have many.
Sure, woman stand submissive laws, but the change can not come from one day to the next, and mostly not under pressure: a population/individual aggressed by opposite values will usually react and retaliate sliding backwards to their/his past values.
Revolutions start that way.

The M-E blaming the West, right, then you have this double blade, the
Saudis, do they realize the danger of the double standards they use?

There has been no really charismatic leader since Sadate, and sadly Massoud was executed.

And why do Muslims (not the converts) come to Europe in the first place?
���wars
why?
Y

- we are having Iraqis emigrate lately, I wonder why�..

"Machine gun,
bury my bodies under ground.....
bury my voice under ground.
People man make me kill you,,,,"



it is sickening, sickening sickening,
tough choices? the choice is to slide right or not.
and that has nothing to do with Islam, but, imo, with intolerance.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by y0y0:
That is overdoing it, I think. You, a muslim living in England, blame the generic "West" for all the problems of the Islamic world and the Middle East. Yet, the West itself has by no means a similar policy towards the Middle East, or Islam for that matter. While the US and the UK have invaded Iraq, France has objected to this. While the US has been generally supportive of Israel over the last four years ( Clinton's administration tried at least to get the Israelis and Palestinians to a peace agreement), the UK and France have generally argued that the Palestinians' rights should be respected.

I've never blamed the West for all the problems in the Islamic world/Middle East. I've acknowledged the failings of the Arab governments many times. Indeed, there exists no true Islamic state in the Middle East despite what their corrupt governments like to proclaim. That said, to neglect the West's destructive influence over the Middle East - which goes way back to Britain and France's colonial past - results in a totally flawed conclusion about the crisis in the Middle East. People on this board like to think that the West holds absolutely no responsibility for why there are problems over there.

The Islamic world is directing its anger at the West (and in turn, neglecting the shortcomings of their own governments) today more so than ever. But should this really come as a surprise to us? We've got two Muslim countries under occupation, Guantanimo bay where many innocent Muslims are being held and tortured, France banned the hijab, Britain has it's own Guantanimo in the form of Belmarsh prison, the BNP in Britain - whose members are on tape for expressing their desire to blow up Mosques - enjoys increased support in the form of electoral votes from the population and Kilroy-Silk known for his outspoken anti-Arab BS gets elected in the European Parliament. And that's just to name but a few things that just might piss off quite a few Muslims.

Muslims living in the West see their rights being messed around and Muslims living in the East see their countries being occupied by the West. So really it's not at all surprising that they channel their anger in a general Westerly direction.

Not only this but one would think that Muslim nations would take some responsibility for their own actions. Blaming their own less than democratic governments on the West is an easy cop out and a nice way of avoiding the responsibility for their own actions.

I agree with that. There should be a realisation of their own government's shortcomings. Though the West's involvement in them being in such a situation is significant - let's not forget the fact that the entire Middle-Eastern state was simply dropped on the region in the image of the European model - the fact that the Arabs failed to reject Western intervention (and continues to) is something only they themselves (the Arabs) can be blamed for.

While I do agree that the "West" does meddle in the Middle East, and that Israel does treat the Palestinians in a less than human manner, the Palestinians do not exactly help things with their suicide bombings and niether do the Muslims in Europe who show more affiliation to the MIddle East than the countries in which they live, which brings me to the question: If those Muslims in Europe who feel they would be happier in an Islamic Republic so badly want one, why don't they simply go and live in one instead of abusing the freedoms given to them in Europe? What did Europe do to them to earn their terror? [/B]

I'd like to see the Arabs actually unite and create a real Islamic Republic in the Middle East and actually exercise the influence that they do have over the West. And it's all in the oil. All Saudi Arabia needs to do is refuse to supply the US with oil and the world economy would be in complete disarray. Egypt, under Nassr, and Syria successfully forced the colonial powers and Israel to withdraw from certain areas after they cut off oil supplies to the West in 1956. But today, Saudi Arabia, for example, goes out of its way to pump more oil whenever the US desires it.

The problem is that the Arab governments still have their interests tied up with the West and nobody is willing to make an effort to change that. The Arabs/Islamic people do bear some of the responsibility for the situation they find themselves in simply because they've let themselves be manipulated and exploited.

So no, I don't solely blame the West for the problems faced by the Islamic world. But current events like the war in Iraq will only serve to exacerbate the situation. You can't keep interfering in people's affairs and expect them to welcome you with flowers and gifts (despite what Rumsfeld would like you to think).

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by moki:
It's sad, really, because Islam really is a very peaceful and pleasant religion. Much more personal and less institutional than Christianity; I rather like it, really, and if I were religious, I would be much more attracted to Islam or Buddhism than to Christianity. There are certainly issues that need to be worked out, however, with these extremists who are perverting the religion.

You talk of religions as objects. Clearly you are not religious, for people are not acting their Faith because it is cute and pleasant to the eye...

Back on topic, Europe was the battleground between the USSR ant the USA. So what's new, if not the time period and the usual economic clashes?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by Logic:
No. Because Israel doesn't represent Judaism.

This place has gotten so infested with Islamophobia, racism, xenophobia and disgusting people that I cannot reach any other conclusion that the US right is filled with Neo Nazis. The same ignorant, inbred kind of people I spent most of my time in Sweden fighting. I was fighting people like moki, Pachead, dcolton, et al side by side with Jews, Arabs, South Americans and people from outside of Europe.

That the macnn staff then allowed the racist pig vmarks to become a moderator has given people like those I mentioned above a green light to continue their racist attacks on 1/4th of the human race and have allowed them to spew their hateful speech on this forum.


This will be my last post here since I have no will to continue to generate revenue for macnn and I have no interest in talking to people like them. But this will not be the last time you xenophobic neo nazis will hear from me.

Good bye.

All the reasonable people here value your posts, it'd be a shame if you stopped posting just because there's a few idiots on here who deliberately post inflammatory BS to piss people off.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
All the reasonable people here value your posts, it'd be a shame if you stopped posting just because there's a few idiots on here who deliberately post inflammatory BS to piss people off.

Palestinians have a simple message to most Israelis and Zionists: 8.5 million Palestinians are going no where. The sooner the majority of Israelis and Zionists understand this simple message, the faster they shall wake up from their delusional coma.

Oh, I know.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Oh, I know.

What? It's a fact.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
What? It's an opinion.

Fixed.

One could say the same thing about your side. Logic is an anti-Semite who masks it as pro-Islamic. A retarded monkey can see through that. It's like perryp or whatever he was called.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Fixed.

Nope.

One could say the same thing about your side. Logic is an anti-Semite who masks it as pro-Islamic. A retarded monkey can see through that. It's like perryp or whatever he was called. [/B]

When you post inflammatory crap, people will respond in kind. It actually illustrates what's happened to this forum. Both sides have started to deliberately express extreme views that they don't actually subscribe to. That's why there really is very little civilised discourse here anymore. Instead of people crafting thoughtful, intellectual posts, they craft inflammatory posts to get the other side all riled up.

It's boring.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:

Nope.

When you post inflammatory crap, people will respond in kind. It actually illustrates what's happened to this forum. Both sides have started to deliberately express extreme views that they don't actually subscribe to. That's why there really is very little civilised discourse here anymore. Instead of people crafting thoughtful, intellectual posts, they craft inflammatory posts to get the other side all riled up.

It's boring. [/B]

Everything I say has my stamp of approval.

Don't play holier-than-thou.

What's inflammatory?

I guess it's pretty hard when people spend the majority of their time on US and Christian bashing. I respond in kind. People spit on the troops, I respond in kind. Besides, most things are emotional issues both sides get their feathers riled up in. Except maybe taxes. Although boring, it probably could be civil there.

[torsoboy]

Originally posted by Logic:
This will be my last post here since I have no will to continue to generate revenue for macnn and I have no interest in talking to people like them. But this will not be the last time you xenophobic neo nazis will hear from me.

Good bye.

Did I hear that correctly?!? Hallelujah!! I have been hoping to hear that for a LONG time! Everything he said always had to be right, no matter what anyone else could prove. His sources were always the only reliable ones, and everyone elses were just "ignorant" and/or "stupid". I have had that guy on my ignore list for a little while now, and now thanks to some of you for quoting him, I know that i finally don't ever have to read anything he says again! Hallelujah!

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
All the reasonable people here value your posts, it'd be a shame if you stopped posting just because there's a few idiots on here who deliberately post inflammatory BS to piss people off.

Yea, sure. All the reasonable people. Gimme a break, a lot of us think that only the "idiots" would want to listen to him.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by torsoboy:
Did I hear that correctly?!? Hallelujah!! I have been hoping to hear that for a LONG time! Everything he said always had to be right, no matter what anyone else could prove. His sources were always the only reliable ones, and everyone elses were just "ignorant" and/or "stupid". I have had that guy on my ignore list for a little while now, and now thanks to some of you for quoting him, I know that i finally don't ever have to read anything he says again! Hallelujah!



Yea, sure. All the reasonable people. Gimme a break, a lot of us think that only the "idiots" would want to listen to him.

Pretty sure that was sarcastic. Too early to tell. I'm beaming it up to my Zionist mother ship for further translation.

I'm glad he's gone. He's an anit-Semite who's overly bitter about something. He must be worked up over the election in another country and the fate of that kindly old gentleman, Arafat. Of course we all know what should happen to him (Arafat)�

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by PacHead:
As for whiny little socialist midgets who want me banned - Yep, my predictions (which turn out to be more and more true), and the factual posts I come with - Yep - now there's a good reason for banning me. I know if I was a wackjob jihadist, I'd want people like me banned also. Jihadists would probably stab me in the chest, while attaching some silly written kuran text to it, if they could.

I'd hardly characterize Spliff as a "whiny little socialist midget" or a "wackjob jihadist"

[PacHead]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I'd hardly characterize Spliff as a "whiny little socialist midget" or a "wackjob jihadist"

Yeah, he's obviously just one of those tolerant Canadians who want to ban viewpoints which they do not subscribe to.

[swrate]

i find it difficult to see this pic in a thread about "EU facing tough choices on Islam", the way it shows once more how bloody reactions are.
If I had any power here i would erase it.

Who would risk doing a contestable film about Christians, (see the huha around the Passion) and radicalize the Faith to that extreme, with that nastiness? It was bound to create opposition.


Logic,
i hope its not a definite decision.

intolerance and cruelty are hardly bearable at times
I admire people from both sides who can debate with patience.
i see red myself more then once and i then dive in the blue.

Europeans are facing the tough choice on ......
I regret when people leave, a lot are lately, from the blue.

Does MacNN hold statistics on the number of Europeans, Australians, Canadians, and so on posting?

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by swrate:
i find it difficult to see this pic in a thread about "EU facing tough choices on Islam", the way it shows once more how bloody reactions are.
If I had any power here i would erase it.

Who would risk doing a contestable film about Christians, (see the huha around the Passion) and radicalize the Faith to that extreme, with that nastiness? It was bound to create opposition.


Logic,
i hope its not a definite decision.

intolerance and cruelty are hardly bearable at times
I admire people from both sides who can debate with patience.
i see red myself more then once and i then dive in the blue.

Europeans are facing the tough choice on ......
I regret when people leave, a lot are lately, from the blue.

Does MacNN hold statistics on the number of Europeans, Australians, Canadians, and so on posting?

When facing intolerance, people need to get more involved, in a pacific way, as much as is possible.

But self-respect is the most important thing we have; I don't blame people for taking a break once in awhile, when the going gets tough.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by swrate:
i find it difficult to see this pic in a thread about "EU facing tough choices on Islam", the way it shows once more how bloody reactions are.
If I had any power here i would erase it.

It was bound to create opposition.

So what you're saying echos this Dutch Muslim who says that basically, murder is normal.

So much for free speech, I see.

EDIT: link fixed. As for free speech, one muslim claims that murder is a normal response to free speech, and swrate opposes the free speech exercise of posting a picture above.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by vmarks:
So what you're saying echos this Dutch Muslim who says that basically, murder is normal.

So much for free speech, I see.

Link does not work.

But one is left to wonder how naming one, two, 300 hundred individuals with a belief is generalizable to a billion others?

[eklipse]

Originally posted by y0y0:
...but some migrants simply do not even attempt to integrate....

I think this is a large contributing factor to race-relations in general that often gets overlooked. A great deal of migrants make little to no effort to integrate into the society that they are living in. Instead they set up their own micro-communities, associate amongst themselves, speak their own languages (and make no effort to learn the local languages), buy and sell their own food from their own shops, hang-out in their own private social clubs etc. etc. They also tend to bunch together in the same geographical areas such that entire districts become recognized as Turkish dominated, Greek dominated, Arab dominated, Afro-Carribean dominated and so on.

On the surface there is no problem with any of this - it's all harmless at the end of the day - but, doesn't this sort of behavior defeat the whole point of migrating to another country in the first place? If they just want to turn a small part of another a country into a home away from home - what was the point in leaving home to begin with?

I think many of the problems with cultural integration stem from this type of 'voluntary segregation'. Humans seem to have an overwhelming need to dice society up into increasingly smaller groups and constantly factor every issue down to an 'us versus them' scenario. By refusing to integrate, migrants are laying the groundwork for future conflicts and heightened tensions.

However, not all the blame should be left at the door of the migrant - it can be argued that the reason why migrants group together with 'their own kind' is due to the hostility encountered from the xenophobic indigenous population. I think both migrants and locals need to realize that immigration and integration is a two-way street, the locals should welcome newcomers and attempt to 'make them feel at home', and for their part, the newcomers should make every effort to integrate into their new surroundings and contribute to the cultural mix rather than isolating themselves from it.

Both sides should work towards breaking down societal and cultural barriers rather than building new ones.

Can't we all just get along?

[y0y0]

Originally posted by lil'babykitten:
... France banned the hijab, Britain has it's own Guantanimo in the form of Belmarsh prison, the BNP in Britain - whose members are on tape for expressing their desire to blow up Mosques - enjoys increased support in the form of electoral votes from the population and Kilroy-Silk known for his outspoken anti-Arab BS gets elected in the European Parliament. And that's just to name but a few things that just might piss off quite a few Muslims.

You are sounding just like those you always sound off on, on this board. Conveniently moulding the facts to fit your point of view.
Fact. France did NOT ban the Hijab. France banned ALL religious symols in its secular SCHOOLS. Read the news. Some Sikhs were expelled form school in France last week for refusing to attend school without their turbans.
Fact. The far right is gaining ground All OVER Europe, not just the UK. A Mosque was bombed in Holland by the far right this morning as a retaliation for the killing of Theo van Gogh. The Neonazi NPD and DVU in Germany are in local government in Saxony. Why do you think this is so? Europe had wide open immigration policies and protections for immigrants for decades. The move to the far right is a sign that the general population is starting to ask itself why immigrants should get so many rights when a good percentage of them abuse it, like that throwback to the middle ages who killed Van Gogh in Holland. People are simply getting tired of tolerating any and all crap by immigrants who abuse their host countries.

Muslims living in the West see their rights being messed around and Muslims living in the East see their countries being occupied by the West. So really it's not at all surprising that they channel their anger in a general Westerly direction.

Again, why should Muslims in the West have any special rights whatsoever? Why are they more supportive of foreign countries than their host countries which up until recently (and please don't tell me that Abu Hamza in the UK would have been allowed to preach his hatred in Egypt) gave them far more rights than they had in the countries of their origin???????

... let's not forget the fact that the entire Middle-Eastern state was simply dropped on the region in the image of the European model - the fact that the Arabs failed to reject Western intervention (and continues to) is something only they themselves (the Arabs) can be blamed for.

You really need to read up a bit more on history and stop distorting things so they fit your pet theory. The vast majority of the Middle East and North Africa was ruled by the Ottoman Turks for more than 600 years. European colonial intervention in the Middle East was restricted to the last century, yet I don't see anyone blaming the Turks, even though the Arabs were only able to rid themselves of Turkish oppression with the aid of of the British and French in WWI. And what European model was dropped on the Middle East???? There are big differences in the history of colonial Africa and colonial Middle East. And what about Iran? It is a real Islamic Republic yet I would really hate to be a woman there, what with all the rights and freedoms they have there.

I'd like to see the Arabs actually unite and create a real Islamic Republic in the Middle East and actually exercise the influence that they do have over the West. And it's all in the oil. All Saudi Arabia needs to do is refuse to supply the US with oil and the world economy would be in complete disarray. Egypt, under Nassr, and Syria successfully forced the colonial powers and Israel to withdraw from certain areas after they cut off oil supplies to the West in 1956. But today, Saudi Arabia, for example, goes out of its way to pump more oil whenever the US desires it.

Egypt and Syria once had oil????? Hurry up and tell the egyptians that. I'm sure they'd love to hear this piece of good news.

The problem is that the Arab governments still have their interests tied up with the West and nobody is willing to make an effort to change that. The Arabs/Islamic people do bear some of the responsibility for the situation they find themselves in simply because they've let themselves be manipulated and exploited.

So no, I don't solely blame the West for the problems faced by the Islamic world. But current events like the war in Iraq will only serve to exacerbate the situation. You can't keep interfering in people's affairs and expect them to welcome you with flowers and gifts (despite what Rumsfeld would like you to think).

You said "The Arab governments have THEIR interests tied up with the west..." So you agree that it is the Arab governments responsibility to disconnect their interests from the West, not the other way around.

The invasion and occuptaion of Iraq was NOT supported by the majority of the West, or the world for that matter. It was started by the US and the UK with those countries that participated mainly doing so on the promise of lucrative oil contracts, none of which have materialised. Hence the withdrawal of foreign troops.

The armchair revolutionary ideal of blaming everything on the west gets old, you know. The world is more complex than that.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by y0y0:
...it is the Arab governments responsibility to disconnect their interests from the West, not the other way around.

I would say that it is more the responsibility of the Arab populace to forcibly disconnect their corrupt government's interests from the West - sitting around waiting for the Arab governments to do what's good for the countries they are supposed to be looking out for rather than 'what's good for their Swiss bank accounts' is not a sensible option.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by y0y0:
Fact. France did NOT ban the Hijab. France banned ALL religious symols in its secular SCHOOLS. Read the news. Some Sikhs were expelled form school in France last week for refusing to attend school without their turbans.
Fact. The far right is gaining ground All OVER Europe, not just the UK. A Mosque was bombed in Holland by the far right this morning as a retaliation for the killing of Theo van Gogh. The Neonazi NPD and DVU in Germany are in local government in Saxony. Why do you think this is so?

I'm well aware of the other implications of France's ban. I didn't mention the others because we were specifically talking about the situation Muslims are in. It is a source of concern for the Muslim community. I'm also well aware of the Far Right's increasing influence across Europe. But what's your point? I was listing a few examples of why Muslims might just feel that they are being targeted right now.

Europe had wide open immigration policies and protections for immigrants for decades. The move to the far right is a sign that the general population is starting to ask itself why immigrants should get so many rights when a good percentage of them abuse it, like that throwback to the middle ages who killed Van Gogh in Holland. People are simply getting tired of tolerating any and all crap by immigrants who abuse their host countries.

You're giving the Far Right far too much legitimacy by suggesting that they're responding to immigrants abusing their rights. The Far Right consists of a bunch of ignorant, bigoted, racists bastards who will latch on to anything if it helps them kick out as many non-whites as possible. And the issue of illegal immigration is the one they latched on to, hyped up and distorted as if it's some horrendously out of control disaster that the governments are incapable of dealing with. Sure, the systems there for asylum seekers need to be improved to ensure that those who do attempt to subvert it don't succeed. But the problem is in no way as serious as the Far Right attempt to portray it.
You're citing Abu Hamza as if he's an example of an apparent mass of immigrants who are abusing the system. He's a minority and doesn't even deserve all the attention he has received.

Again, why should Muslims in the West have any special rights whatsoever? Why are they more supportive of foreign countries than their host countries which up until recently (and please don't tell me that Abu Hamza in the UK would have been allowed to preach his hatred in Egypt) gave them far more rights than they had in the countries of their origin???????

Where have I suggested this bizarre idea that Muslims in the West deserve special rights? What's your point? That they should just be happy they're not living in Iran for example and therefore shouldn't make a fuss if they aren't granted the same rights as everyone else? I think it's fair to say that Muslims living in the West deserve the same rights as anyone else living there. And that's all I've ever said. There are however, many instances where Muslims don't enjoy equal treatment and this is a cause of concern for the Muslim community.
As for the second question, I think you're ignoring the international context of the situation. The War on Terror, the rise in Islamic fundamentalism, the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict all have repurcussions that resonate right across the world in many countries. Islamic fundamentalism is in some ways a response to Western exploitation. The rise of the Far Right is in some ways a response to Islamic fundamentalism. The ban on religious symbols in France was partly a response to increasing tensions between Jewish and Muslim students over the Israel-Palestine conflict. I don't think it's fair to say that people were always more supportive of foreign countries than their own. However, today that is the case because of the precarious status of the international situation.

You really need to read up a bit more on history and stop distorting things so they fit your pet theory. The vast majority of the Middle East and North Africa was ruled by the Ottoman Turks for more than 600 years. European colonial intervention in the Middle East was restricted to the last century, yet I don't see anyone blaming the Turks, even though the Arabs were only able to rid themselves of Turkish oppression with the aid of of the British and French in WWI. And what European model was dropped on the Middle East????

Perhaps you could do with a bit of a history read-up regarding the Middle East state system? The Ottomans played their part in exploiting the Arab peoples, slowing down its development etc but it was the colonial powers that introduced an artificial state system in the region. Why do you think the European state works so well yet the Arab state remains in crisis? The European state works because it was a system that was allowed to develop naturally. It evolved over time. The system of land ownership in Europe gradually developed in to one of hierachy and centralised ownership of the land. This eventually led to the centralisation of power and the creation of a state system, the institutional mechanisms then evolved from the state.
None of that happened in the Middle East. The colonials dropped their model of the state on to a region that wasn't suited to it or ready for it. Land ownership in the ME was of a completely different nature, collectively owned by tribes or families etc. The key difference here being that there was no centralised system of ownership thus no natural development of a grass roots state system. The governments that were put there had the interests of the colonial powers as the first priority. There was no industrialisation process because the colonials had no need for it. Instead the state's role was to facilitate the extraction of resources for trade and export. When the colonials carved up the Middle Eastern map, it made absolutely no sense to the peoples. They were suddenly told right you're Syrians, Iraqis, Jordanians, Iranians etc and this is your government. What all this ultimately meant was that the Arab state lacked legitimacy and the only way it could maintain any sort of stability was by using despotic power. The lack of legitimacy the Arab states have today remains. An example of what I mean by that legitimacy: In Europe every time you get your paycheck, a chunk of it is already gone in taxes to the government. And you accept that (perhaps, begrudgingly) but the fact remains that the government has the legitimacy and the infrastructural capacity to do that. Arab governments enjoy no such power.

Anywho...it's naive to neglect the extent of what the colonials did to the Arab state system. It's entirely artificial. It's no wonder that it remains ineffectual in so many areas. Sure, the Arabs can be blamed for not resisting it but the repercussions remain and the resentment toward the West remains.

There are big differences in the history of colonial Africa and colonial Middle East. And what about Iran? It is a real Islamic Republic yet I would really hate to be a woman there, what with all the rights and freedoms they have there.

Point?

Egypt and Syria once had oil????? Hurry up and tell the egyptians that. I'm sure they'd love to hear this piece of good news.

Quoi?
My point was that Nassr took control of the Suez Canal and stopped oil from being transported to the West. It gave him a lot of influence over the Arab world and some oil producing countries - such as Syria - stopped pumping oil. It caused a huge crisis.

You said "The Arab governments have THEIR interests tied up with the west..." So you agree that it is the Arab governments responsibility to disconnect their interests from the West, not the other way around.

I agree, BUT the Arabs should not expect their corrupt governments to do so. Their governments aren't looking out for their interests. The Arab people need to be the ones that forcibly replace their governments and reassert their priorities.

[swrate]

Originally posted by vmarks:
So what you're saying echos this Dutch Muslim who says that basically, murder is normal.

So much for free speech, I see.

EDIT: link fixed. As for free speech, one muslim claims that murder is a normal response to free speech, and swrate opposes the free speech exercise of posting a picture above.

If anyone made a film about the Christian religion with the same lack of respect that he did with Islam, he would also be in death danger.


the fact that I react the way i did to the pic should tell you what i think of murder; the pic of Yassin's blood has NOTHING to do in this topic.



you would yell for blasphemy if it were the other way around.
free speech yes, lack of respect, no, that's why the guy got murdered.

i oppose murder and this sort of free speech, and once more, the picture you vehicle for MacNN is rather distressing to me.


vmarks leaving this pic in this topic (when it has nothing to do with Europe, i repeat) and excusing it is imo a metaphor:

YOU are saying murder is normal.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by swrate:
If anyone made a film about the Christian religion with the same lack of respect that he did with Islam, he would also be in death danger.

Like South Park, la Religieuse, or The Last Temptation of Christ (which I dearly love but is quite a departure from widely accepted Christology)? Just to name a few. Those are all pretty inflammatory (especially South Park and la Religieuse) and no one's gotten killed yet.

[PacHead]

Originally posted by swrate:
YOU are saying murder is normal.

For muslim fanatics, yep, it apparently is.

[swrate]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Like South Park, la Religieuse, or The Last Temptation of Christ (which I dearly love but is quite a departure from widely accepted Christology)? Just to name a few. Those are all pretty inflammatory (especially South Park and la Religieuse) and no one's gotten killed yet.

you didn't get the double entendre Macstein,



strange, i see the 9 of swords!!!!!!!!!


the blood spewed here is .... that of a Muslim killed by a Jew.
and.....
Sheikh Yassine's blood,

- there is a thread here about his murder here, MacNN-


Is exposing his blood decent, and is it allowed by the Geneva conventions?




Please explain Macstone, what it has to do with Europe and the choice to make.
The only relation i see here is MURDER, therefore some of you are suggesting EU to deal that way with Muslims without even looking at the context.



Mixing sado-mazochism with masonic rituals and holy Scriptures will do marvels to stir the crowds,

The few pics i saw of the film were beyond that.
Those pictures showed me in fact it could NOT be Muslims doing these horrors, as Muslims do not write on, nor tatoo, their body.
If you have been close to Islam, you should know this.

You (or whoever started this)are linking Islam to an unknown sect, one would have to see the film to find out what sect.

See l'Ordre du Temple Solaire, (tragedies) used religion and Scriptures too, none ever said they were Christians.



my ace cup is full


� �
� �

[Saad]

Originally posted by eklipse:
I would say that it is more the responsibility of the Arab populace to forcibly disconnect their corrupt government's interests from the West - sitting around waiting for the Arab governments to do what's good for the countries they are supposed to be looking out for rather than 'what's good for their Swiss bank accounts' is not a sensible option.

I think many Arabs have already realized that. House Saud is on the verge of collapse as is President Musharraf of Pakistan. The people is where the power is vested.