I have four Pismo laptops all exibiting the keys touching screen problem. This problem is caused by too little space between the keys and LCD panel and shows up as grease marks on the screen which become more and more difficult to remove and finally permanent marks. One of mine (the most well traveled) of them is worse than the others. I am going to go after Apple for a fix on all of them because eventually this is going to scratch the screen. I don't want to be a few months out of warranty and have to foot the bill for a new screen. This is example of this machines weak points. The less than solid case is another.

When I called Apple suggested laying a piece of cloth on the keyboard when I close it. This is not at all acceptable. Would you accept a car that had a hood rubbing the fender and the dealer said "put a rag on it before you close the hood?

Does your Pismo or Lombard exibit this problem? If so call Apple and demand a fix.

[iMacguy]

I have a Pismo 400 and I have noticed the same problem. At first I was quite nervous about it. Meaning I just thought I got a bad egg. I haven't had any problems cleaning off the marks though. I imagine that this will be part of routine daily maintaintence. Rest assured, however, if the marks do become permanent I expect to impress upon Apple that it is their responsability to fix or replace the screen.

[seanyepez]

I have had the same experience with this series of laptops.

The most well-traveled machine in my collection, a PowerBook G3 Series (1999), had these annoying marks on its screen. At first, I thought nothing of them, as they would come off easily. Eventually, they became permanent.

My new Pismo exhibits the same problem. I have had more and more trouble cleaning the marks off the screen, and I think I am going to resort to keeping a sheet of something between the keyboard and the screen.

I hope Apple will fix this problem with their new release of PowerBooks (codenamed Mercury). It gets annoying.

I too think that it's unreasonable to think that someone would have to put a sheet of paper between the LCD and the keyboard to keep the machine operating.

I've got the same marks, only worse. My problem is made worse by the heat sink in my PB. It's too big for the casing and makes the left side of my keyboard bulge upward, which in turn puts added pressure on my screen. (I have a PB2000 bought about two months ago in Japan.) In fact, it's causing an ever-worsening bright spot right where the left side of the space key jabs into it. This screen damage is internal and does not go away with time.
The Apple-approved service center where I go has confirmed the problem and agreed that it needs to be fixed. But I got a call from the guy on Friday, and he told me that Apple says that my problems aren't actually "problems," and that they won't pay to fix them! I couldn't believe it.

What's more, with the keys jabbing into the screen, I can't carry my PB around in my bag, because that'll cause too much additional pressure on the top and add to the friction between the keys and the screen. So basically, I've got a laptop that damages itself when being carried around. Unbeleivable.

I know that not everyone has this problem, but many do. I'm really angry that I paid 400,000 yen for a lemon. I'm thinking (very seriously) about just selling it and getting a cheap Wintel machine (Thinkpad), and cutting my losses.

I'm livid!

[tooki]

Perhaps your processor module needs to be pushed in more. To do this, remove the two screws that hold the shielding tight, and firmly but carefully apply pressure. Be sure to first bleed any static electricity by touching a radiator or metal faucet first.

tooki

Thanks for the tip!

I'm not confident enough to do too much myself "under the hood," but I'll mention it to the guy at the service place. But he seems convinced that it's the heat sink, though. He said that it's been redesigned in the PB's coming out right now, but was bunged up in the models sold a few months ago. He showed me a new PB, and the heat sink was black and much lower (mine is silver and rides much higher up). He did say something about the modem, too, but I'm not sure what he was getting at.

If you think of ANYTHING else that might also help, I'd really appreciate it!!! I'm at the end of my rope...

[fmalloy]

Sponge,

A heat sink that makes the keyboard bulge *IS* a problem, and don't let any "Apple" tech tell you otherwise. Something is mis-aligned or mis-manufactured. They should re-seat the processor and heat sink. If that doesn't do it, you deserve a new one.

Don't give up - raise the issue to a service manager, and keep going up the chain. Make a big stink about it. Threaten to buy a Wintel. Tell them you have influence over the purchasing of large amounts of PowerBooks and that you'll recommend Wintel for this reason. Ask for the phone number of corporate Apple customer service and call it.

I'm getting sick and tired of clear manufacturing/design defects being called "normal". Screen marks, keys falling off, creaky cases, blue tinted screens... Fixing these problems costs Apple very little in the grand scheme, and it keeps loyal customers. If it costs them too much they need to fix their design and manufacturing bugs. Is *THEIR* problem, not ours.

Boy - Apple starts making money again, and look how they treat us. *WE* made Apple successful again, *NOT* Steve Jobs. Anyone could have come up with a stupid candy-coated case idea. *WE'RE* the ones who bought it.

Steve Jobs, you're a jerk.

Frank

Frank

[seanyepez]

Go ahead - get bent!

Steve Jobs has great ideas. He is the one who made products that we buy.

But, you're right. We were the ones who bought his iMac idea.

Your points were good points, though.

[wlonh]

"...going to resort to keeping a sheet of something between the keyboard and the screen."

that would likely add to the problem somewhat by adding extra pressure (as was suggested elsewhere in this forum by TookiGT, i believe) who knows, you could end up losing pixels instead of having marks... just wipe your keys off religiously, it's the body oils that are creating the smudges on the screen... if you don't wipe-down your keyboard it could well grab some grit and then you will have scratches on your screen...

and there's talk (a post on this forum i think) of heat sinks being too large on some pismos and that it makes the keyboard too high and there is a new heatsink... i hope i am not way off on this last bit

I use a swiffer disposable sheet between the keys and screen to prevent such marks. Plus the sheets does its original job by trapping dust and dirt on contact. 16 sheets per box and sure beats using an old rag.

[tooki]

I have had bad experiences with Swiffer/Grab-it cloths. Their static-attraction coating is very oily, and leaves hard-to-remobe gunk on the screen. It took copious amounts of 409 and elbow grease to remove the Swiffer gunk off my screens after dusting my screens with one. (The cloths are equally bad on CRT screens.)

Also, while I have no proof of any damage occuring from such use, I would think it to be a bad idea to have cloths that intentionally create static so close to the processor and RAM, both of which are extremely sensitive to static discharge.

Nothing beats cotton or microfiber synthetics.

tooki

[seanyepez]

My take on this situation is a rather annoyed one.

"Why should we have to tote along something to put between the keyboard and the screen to prevent scratches? We paid thousands of dollars for this machine, yet it comes broken (in a way) from the start."

I just don't see how Apple can sell a system that takes damage just being toted around.

Wouldn't you all agree?

[SpiffyGuyC]

Perhaps the worst part of all this is that Apple's warranty and/or AppleCare doesn't cover Powerbook screens. I have a feeling nobody will be getting anything from Apple over this issue. Good news is that Jobs has a "special keynote" in store for Seybold - which pretty much means a portable refresh. Maybe the problem will be addressed with whatever is shown there.

Apple refuses to fix what I think is their own mistake. I've decided to sell my Powerbook and buy something with better quality. I will NEVER buy an Apple product again.

[blindspot]

i just ordered a pismo 500,
and i was considering options to carry it in.

i was thinking about buying a backpack with a padded laptop panel. do you think this would aggrivate the problem with the keys touching the screen? (the sideways pressure of books in the bag sandwiching the laptop against one's back...)

if it would be a problem to do this, can you suggest a means of protecting and carrying a pb that doesn't *look* like a laptop case? this will be all over a college campus, and i don't want it to look like an invitation to mug me, or otherwise steal it.

let me know what you think...


[This message has been edited by blindspot (edited 07-27-2000).]

Sponge I don't blame you. I urge all Pismo owners with this problem to do these three things:

(a) call Apple service at 800-500-7078 and voice your disatisfaction.

(b) Complain to the dealer demand they replace it, make some noise, rattle their cage, this is the only way we will get a fix.

If you don't get anywhere there

(c) call Apple Corp. main number and ask for Steve Jobs. I have done this before and you actually get one of his staffers. Be polite but firm. If we don't start complaining now and get a fix we will be out of warranty and you start losing pixels and faced with an expensive $1000 repair.

Again we are going to get either screwed by Apple on this or if we all lodge enough complaints, hopefully a fix.

As I had said I was going to do in my last post, I've sold my Powerbook (a little sad - my first Mac was way back in the LC days). I didn't get much for it, but it was enough for a Thinkpad i-series with TFT, IEEE 1394, video editor, etc. and about $700 US left over (enough for a digital video camera). :-) ...And the keys do NOT touch the screen. The unit does NOT flex, squeak or creak when being handled. Apple's design priorities are baffling. I mean, who cares if the fan comes on occasionally when you're dealing with the friggin' keys scraping away at the screen! Aarg!!! For me, this is the end of a very frustrating and costly experience. But I'm pretty happy with what I've got now.

Good luck guys, and I hope you get the fix you're waiting for. But something tells me that, even if you're lucky, you're going to have to buy into the next-generation $3000-$4000 Powerbook to get it. Not me, not again. No way.

Again, good luck.

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I like the think pads hope it works out.
Some good news on this end. We do a lot of work for the computer industry distribution channel and one of our employees who is on site at a large distributor is getting me some contact numbers at Apple. We will see what happens. Does anyone think we should put up a website and gather a list of Pismo owners with this problem? Something like pismorecall.com or pismoproblems.com. If we get enough exposure and names we have a better chance of winning this.
If so email me at [email protected]

hi guys.

as usual ive just skimmed over these posts.

but i have to add that ive had no probs.

i use "klear screen" regularly as part of my cleaning process. im sure we'd all be doing this even if there wasnt a marks problem right???

i mean if you'd rather sell your computer than clean it semi regularly then there not much i can say....

and im one of the most disorganized people i know. i mean..man. we ve all dropped alot of cash for this thing so cleaning it/maintaining it is par for the course.

i realize peoples frustrations but....

im glad Apple found a way..albeit maybe not "perfect'...to cram as much juice/guts into this thing as possible.

i constantly watch full dvds on the battery...run photshop 5.5, final cut pro, premier, sound edit 16 pro, cubase vst 4.1 all painlessly..and damn quickly!

with the ua 30 (usb audio interface) i picked up, i can do everything i need....

i mean..yeah think pads are cool and all but this thing (pismo) like just under 6 lbs!

i tried to lift a friends Dell (with about the same specs as a pismo) and my arm fell off..

Quote - Would you accept a car that had a hood rubbing the fender
and the dealer said "put a rag on it before you close the hood?

maybe not, but if he said..."well, we pinched some space so this car could go 150 mph, get 80 miles to the gallon and still come in at around 20, 000" i might cut them some slack.

im sure apple knows of the issue.

i ll definately buy a used 500 pismo as my 400 could use a vacation!

and please dont shoot me down with some "ive had it posts" if youve really had it, what the hell are ya doin on a pismo forum? :-)

[Cipher13]

As has been my opinion for quite a while, Apple has its priorities wrong. I don't care what a computer looks like. Its a nice touch, sure, but doesn't make the computer. Apple needs to focus more on durability etc., especially on the portables. Stronger plastic would be a start.
The current PowerBooks just feel very flimsy and cheap. I hope Apple fixes this.
BTW, talk to Apple PR and threaten them with going public. "If you don't help me, I'll report you to the BBB or whatever."
Worked for me a couple years ago. Albeit not with a PowerBook...

Cipher13

[wlonh]

i'd like to hear more about your experience of cajoling Apple into behaving and helping you with your issues, whatever they were...

details, details...

I wasn't going to post any more, but I'd like to clear up what this is about...

"i mean if you'd rather sell your computer than clean it semi regularly then there not much i can say...."

The gunk gets on your screen because the keys are rubbing against it. I can't see how any amount of cleaning will reduce that friction. The finger funk is just one symptom of the problem. If you carry your PB around enough and the keys are touching, the next symptom to appear is the emergence of pits worn into your TFT. I've seen it, and it's pretty bad.

If I were you, I would be thinking less about cleaning the screen and more about reducing that friction. In my case, I wasn't able to do that because the friction was greatly compounded, which you can read about in my post above.

At any rate, take care.

[cfoster611]

I just want to say that my Wallstreet II has none of these problems...

It's just really damn heavy...

[This message has been edited by cfoster611 (edited 07-29-2000).]

Quote -"The gunk gets on your screen because the keys are rubbing against it. I can't see how any amount of cleaning will reduce that friction. The finger funk is just one symptom of the problem. If you carry your PB around enough and the keys are touching, the next symptom to appear is the emergence of pits worn into your TFT. I've seen it, and it's pretty bad."

well, what can i say other than, again ive had no probs.

i carry the book around alot...and its in my car as idrive aound the "roads" here in NYC..and in a stiff riding 77 datusn 280z at that (a whole other post altogether! )

after awhile there are definately marks....

but after i clean it (with klear sceen), they're gone. totally..no marks. no residue. no anything. and im not that regular about it either.

the pitting is caused by, as i see it anyway ,a build up of this gunk from the keybord over a period of time. the already small clearance is now filled with this abrasive residue. left to sit, it gets 'mashed' into the screen by the pressure from the keys (which i agree, is definatley there). it most likely doesnt take too long, as you've noted, for this residue to permanent marks, but it can be avoided. i also realize that, yes, this is not the ideal situation (having to be constantly aware of these marks and their build up) but also, as i havent had a problem yet (maybe ill indeed in the future be in the same boat or something ) i think its fair to cut apple a little slack...as one of the main improvements people were demanding from this revision was a weight reduction.

i got this book the week it came out and ive really put it through its paces too.

i can sympathize with the other probs you encountered though.

but maybe try the Klear screen on one of you books (if you still have them) or anyone else for that matter and post your results...

just curious. i dont work for them, or sell the stuff or anything else like that!.

i too was getting the "marks" and came onto one of the boards, looked at what people were saying..and most people said the same thing "i use klear screen, i have no probs"

ok have fun

[Cipher13]

i'd like to hear more about your experience of cajoling Apple into behaving and helping you with your issues, whatever they were...

details, details...

Okay, if you insist.
The story goes:
It was 1997. I had a PowerBook 100 and a Mac Classic II. I wasn't a big computer user at all. Word processing was about the extent of it, and sometimes drawing with KidPix 2.
Anyway, I wanted a new computer (can you blame me?). So, after much discussion and after working it all out, we got a PowerMac 5500/250.
Within weeks I had increased my computer skills a thousand fold (but considering what they were before...).
Anyway, about 6 months after we got it, I started up one day. System folder with flashing question mark. "Oh, ****..."
Start from CD. All's ok, except no HD mounted on desktop. Run DFA and Drive Setup. Nothing. I ring Apple... they really did try and help me. After them telling me to try the most frustratingly obvious things, like using drive setup and DFA (I held back from saying thats the first thing I did...), they said, "Bring it in and we'll see what we can do."
After waiting by the phone for a week, and calling several times, they said it was ready. BUT - they hadn't been able to salvage anything from it.
Oh yeah, I had already had the monitor replaced because of a bunch of dead pixels right in the middle.
Anyway, its working fine, and about a month later - bang.
There it goes again.
Rang Apple, again, and in a very annoyed (yet polite) tone, told them it had happened again.
They said bring it in. I retorted "I need it for school work, I have assignments to do, and I don't like the idea that my computer has had 2 HD crashes in as many months!".
They apologise for the inconvenience (well, that makes it all better) and say they'll give me a laptop until its ready.
So, we take it in. They give us the laptop (a 1400CS), and we leave.
Again, a week later, we get the computer back.
Works for 2 months, and again - HD crash!!!
This time screw being polite. I yelled at them, and said if it isn't fixed this time I was going straight to Apple PR.
They said they can't gaurantee that. I rang Apple PR.
After going through a couple of lower level PR people, I asked for management. I was put through to Apple Australias Pr boss (the one at the top of the ladder).
I don't know how long we were on the phone, but after a couple of days of calling them, I had her number memorised.
She said she was handling the computers repair.
3 weeks later, I get a call, it was fixed, but AGAIN nothing was salvaged.
I said "I really hope this doesn't happen again". She knew I meant for her sake.
Anyway - AGAIN, a couple months later, whaddya know.
This time I don't ring the Apple Center, I ring her directly and tell her if it isn't resolved, I would report Apple Australia to one of those places where they crucify companies that piss off their clients.
She said "bring it in today, and we'll have it for your TOMORROW".
Well, they came through on that.
In a single day, they replaced the RAM, HD, and entire logic board.
Haven't had a single problem since then.

So, in other words, just keep calling and THREATEN them. They'll buckle.
Hope you got what you were after out of all that...

Cipher13

[wlonh]

gracious of you to respond, and i really do appreciate that edifying post, thank you

[Cipher13]

Any time :-)

Cipher13

[Tomo]

I might buy a new PB in the next few weeks. Does the touching keys problem persist in new machines? and are they quite strong/durable?
Any other good/bad points about PBs or would an ibook be more solid?
Thanks
Mark

[Cipher13]

Oh, Wlonh, I forgot to mention after the third HD crash, they offered to replace it with a Rev A iMac.
I refused. The 5500, in my opinion, was a more capable machine. Maybe not faster, but had the TV card/AVI ports, PCI slot, etc...

Cipher13

[This message has been edited by Cipher13 (edited 07-31-2000).]

[MacNZ]

Wow, Cipher, what an ordeal. I am so glad that has never happened to me ever with Apple. I would have taken the Rev. A iMac at the time though!
My Pismo has the screen probs and has just been in getting fixed. Anyways, I think Apple should try to fix this but I still think the Pismo is a great design. For those who want durability in a laptop I either suggest an iBook SE or buying a decent case. I have a great case which never fails me. It's been to hell and back and my Mac inside has never been damaged. As far as people saying mac laptops are too heavy all the time. I kinda get fed up with people going on about laptop weight all the time. I have no worries carrying ANY mac portable in terms of weight and it doesn't require a muscle man to do so. i would rather have the best features available!

Originally posted by j:


i constantly watch full dvds on the battery...run photshop 5.5, final cut pro, premier, sound edit 16 pro, cubase vst 4.1 all painlessly..and damn quickly!

with the ua 30 (usb audio interface) i picked up, i can do everything i need....

How well does the ua 30 work? is it very durable and well made. i'm thinking of getting one mainly to transfer minidisc captured audio. in that case, will the signal remain digital? rather than having to go minidisc line out to powerbook line in and undergoing two conversions.

i'd like to hear you thoughts on the device.

Thanks.

---
eric

Quote: "How well does the ua 30 work? is it very durable and well made."

yes, its a solid little item. its still made of plastic but everything seems cool (so far anyway!) the faders (2) seem solid and the rca inputs/outputs and volume knob are all soilid and quiet.

its small so it doesnt take up alot of room too.

ive heard some comments how it lacks a bit in terms of the audio to digital conversion, but ive have been pretty happy.(im sure compared to a higher priced card there would be a difference) i run stuff out of cubase thorugh the ua-30 into a small berhinger Eurorack MX 802A, then to dat. (there a re reasons i dont go straight to CD Via CDR burner, but not because of quality or anything like that)
ive been really pleased with the results. the Audio jacks just totally dont cut it for doing higher end or "pro" audio, but the UA 30 seems to holding its own..especially for the price!

Q- i'm thinking of getting one mainly to transfer minidisc captured audio. in that case, will the signal remain digital? rather than having to go minidisc line out to powerbook line in and undergoing two conversions".

yeah, its got both coaxial and optical digital ins and outs.

keep in mind though, you are losing "some" digital quality on the mini disc format....no matter what anyone says, MD is not a full 44.1 kHz.

i mean its sill fine and all (especially as a scratch pad) but when you master to Dat Or CD, youll notice a slight quality loss.

also the UA 30 opens up the possiblity of capturing that audio straight to your 'book, as its got both analogue line and mic inputs...providing this is an option for you inthe first place.

ok hope that helps!

peace

[wlonh]

PEOPLE, please read the TOPIC of this thread... it is NOT about anything but the keyboard... please get back on topic, thanks

Good activity over on MacFixIt lot's of people calling Apple and starting a case with Apple repair. Not much over here anyone called and complained or opened a case?

I have many friends with G3 powerbooks (from 99 to pismo), myself included (pismo), and I wont say they all have that problem 'cause Im not shure, but I would make that affirmantion with 99.9% of selfconfidence. Obviously Apple is having a terrible design problem on that point. Im surprised that they still haven't corrected it. Let's see what's next...

After having my Powerbook for about 6 weeks, the dreaded key marks are showing up on my screen. I just got off the phone with Apple, and they gave me the "oil from your fingers... use a cloth" answer. I'm not going to give them too hard a time. Apple support has always been pretty good to me. However, I am a little disappointed in the "pismo' design. Other than this, it's a bad little machine.

I know I am not supposed to talk about it, but can someone give a link (manufacturer, etc.) to the analog/digital audio capture card you guys are talking about?

I have had a PowerBook 520c and PowerBook 540c both worked great and just won't die. They are small and yet big enough to work on. They are light but they don't feel cheaply light like a Pismo.

Since then a friend and I bought PB Wallstreet's 266. As soon as we poped the keyboards to put more ram in the screen marks started apperaing. Mine were never as bad as his but still were more than what I wanted.

Just last week I bought a new 400 pismo from Apple back to school special. Then I also installed a non-lowprofile 256meg dim. I have had a sheet of paper in the machine to protect the screen but have not seen any marks yet.

My heat sink is not black but it does seem to set much lower than the wallstreets did. You just need a little elbow grease to push it down all the way.

So this problem is not limited to just the Pismos or Lumbards. It also affects the wallstreets and some mainstreets.