[thePurpleGiant]

Hello all!

I never really post in this section since I mostly do web design, but I am getting some new business cards printed. Last time I did this I had a few issues:

1) Half of the card had a black background, but printed like charcoal grey
2) The black area around my logo printed a darker black colour than the black surrounding it.

Since then I have been discovering just how different CMYK and RGB are! I think I nailed down my questions, but would like someone to confirm this for me, before I send off the job. My assumptions so far:

1) Never make CYMK colours exceed 250%
2) Deep, dark black would therefore be 50C, 50Y, 50M, 100K - is this correct?
3) For black text, would I use that same setting or is 100K enough? (would 50C, 50Y, 50M, 100K be 'too much' ink as such, making text fuzzy?

Are those right, or am I a fair bit off track? Any other things I should look out for? Thanks!

[godzookie2k]

all you questions depend on your printer.

1) Never make CYMK colours exceed 250%

i don't know what you mean...


2) Deep, dark black would therefore be 50C, 50Y, 50M, 100K - is this correct?

depends on press. last job I had we used 40 30 30 100.

3) For black text, would I use that same setting or is 100K enough? (would 50C, 50Y,

no. black TEXT should always be 100k x 0c / 0y/ 0k four color blacks on text will make it look fuzzy because registering text, bodys of it, with 4 colors is a trial of futility.


50M, 100K be 'too much' ink as such, making text fuzzy?

no, again 4 color text will make it fuzzy. one color text thats fuzzy is the result of a crap rprinter.

[godzookie2k]

that comment of text above is related to bodies of text being difficult to register with 4 colors, titling is fine, but paragraphs of copy is hard.

[thePurpleGiant]

Thanks Godzookie for the quick reply,

By "Never let colours exceed 250%" - I meant that should that amount of all four colours never add up to above 250? Sorry I didn't know the correct terminology!

For Instance if I had a colour made up of: 100C 80Y 60M 30K = 270 in total, is this a 'bad thing' - or am I misinformed about that?

Thanks!

[godzookie2k]

misinformed me thinks. I've never heard of such hodge podge.

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
misinformed me thinks. I've never heard of such hodge podge.

Thanks 'Zookie - I will list that in my Hodge Podge book, along with the Tooth Fairy.

[himself]

Originally posted by thePurpleGiant:
Thanks Godzookie for the quick reply,

By "Never let colours exceed 250%" - I meant that should that amount of all four colours never add up to above 250? Sorry I didn't know the correct terminology!

For Instance if I had a colour made up of: 100C 80Y 60M 30K = 270 in total, is this a 'bad thing' - or am I misinformed about that?

Thanks!

The ink limit depends mostly on the paper you are printing on, and partly on the ink that is used. The limits are typically higher than what you state (~300%, once again depending largely on the paper), but, of course, too much ink will just sit on top of the paper and smudge and smear and make a muddy mess. That being said, I often find that the easiest thing to do is use a deep Pantone black, and save money by reducing the number of inks I need to get a rich black. Also, you can get away with 100% K alone for your black if it is consistent throughout. Another technique is using a �doublehit.� In other words, the paper makes two passes under a single color (black in this case), and the resulting output is richer and more saturated. I'm guessing you don't have too much space to experiment, so I suggest you ask your printer about which method you can use with them, and determine what would be easiest for you to implement.

[godzookie2k]

you're very very wrong. most printers won't let you double hit, its a pain in the ass. and about doing 100k across the board well, sure if you don't mind flat blacks all around, it still looks crap.

[godzookie2k]

you want to keep your color density down below 250, its shown in photoshp under the info pallet if you run your mouse around. honestly, I have no idea how this is calculated. depending on what you are printing on however, its not *that* big a deal.

[ultra-V]

Some of this is the same as others have mentioned, but from my experience:

Double-hit is almost necessary when doing a large area of solid dark PMS, particularly on uncoated paper. Most printers I've used will recommend it (those that have 6 and 7-color presses). It's usually a lighter version on the desired color as the first hit, then the real color over that. I had a printer even do a triple-hit on a job once (their suggestion) to get a rich color on a particularly absorbent paper. But that's not the question at hand.

The maximum total ink percentage will vary from printer to printer as it does depend on a number of variables like paper, linescreen, etc. I've heard 300, sometimes 320 as a max. Rarely do you really need that much though, and it can get muddy.

As for rich black, there are a couple ways to do it. One is to just put a screen of cyan under it, somewhere around 50%. This, not surprisingly, makes for a cooler black. For a more balanced black, I've had good results with 60c 40m 40y 100k. You can adjust as desired for a cooler or warmer feel. And only use 100k for text.

And on a related note, be sure you ask your printer to put a varnish or aqueous coating over it. If you're doing a solid with that much ink on a sheet, you'll want it sealed so it doesn't scuff.

All that said, talk to your printer, they could give you a recommendation based on your particular job. Most prepress people are glad to give you tips on how to set up the file, as it makes their job easier when it comes in.

[art_director]

"...250, 251, whatever it takes..."

[JacobyO]

Ink density is dependent on the paper but as a general rule for offset printing use 300% max density. DO NOT rely on photoshop settings to do this for you.

For large black areas that you want to make rich use a 40c 30m 20y 100k. It will make the black plenty rich and will be enough that the black doesn't overprint in the RIP's auto trapping software.

as godzookie said, never use rich black's for text. It is impossible to register perfectly.

Double hitting PMS colors is pretty common but not necessary when that color is black. A rich black will suffice as long as you are printing a four color job. If you are only printing a 2 or 3 color PMS job then you would want to double hit a regular black. But using a more dense PMS black could work too.

[himself]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
you're very very wrong. most printers won't let you double hit, its a pain in the ass. and about doing 100k across the board well, sure if you don't mind flat blacks all around, it still looks crap.

In my experience, as some others have noted already, printers will sometime suggest a double hit of a particular color (usually a darker color) if there are concerns about it not fully saturating, especially on uncoated stock.

Also, using 100% k alone for black can work well, if that color is the darkest value on the page (no �rich� blacks anywhere). However, you would probably need experience in how certain paper stocks take certain inks (or call on someone, like your printer, who has this expertise). In the majority of my cases, it tends to look fine.

[designbc]

Originally posted by art_director:
"...250, 251, whatever it takes..."

As said before, it depends of the paper and the ink. I use 240 for a newspaper and 290 for a magazine. If I used the 290 for the newspaper, then the printing would be a mess.

[buddhabelly]

Originally posted by himself:
In my experience, as some others have noted already, printers will sometime suggest a double hit of a particular color (usually a darker color) if there are concerns about it not fully saturating, especially on uncoated stock.

Also, using 100% k alone for black can work well, if that color is the darkest value on the page (no �rich� blacks anywhere). However, you would probably need experience in how certain paper stocks take certain inks (or call on someone, like your printer, who has this expertise). In the majority of my cases, it tends to look fine.

Printers are different everywhere, but the last 3 shops I worked for only printed 100% black blocks of color only when it was just one color job. Even then, if the coverage was big enough we would sometimes use a 30-40% screen behind the solid block (same went for spots). This also helps to prevent hickies and garbage from the rollers.

If a job was ever more that one color, we always made the blacks rich, except text obviously. Otherwise the black would look damn flat and greyish.