[matttichenor]

Here is a point by point analysis of Apple's prices in comparison to Dell's based on current systems. Interesting results.

http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/applevsdell.html

or

http://209.52.111.203/Apple%20Vs%20Dell.htm

Matt


[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: matttichenor ]

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: matttichenor ]

[Hawkeye_a]

nicely done. a bit more technically detailed might help consumers, not to mention a couple of benchmarks as graphs, would greatly improve the overall effect.
Great job.

Cheers.

[iCartman]

Good job.

q: are your prices in Canadian dollars? In the US, you can configure some of those Dell systems for a little bit cheaper.

i.e. the Dimension 8100 1.8GHZ P4 in "round 1" only cost me $3780 (with $150 rebate applied)

Otherwise, I agree with Hawkeye_a; add some more detail and it will be better.

[matttichenor]

All of the prices were in US funds. I really wanted to get into more details, but I didn't t want to clutter it up with computer specs, one of the nice things about buying computers these days is that you don't have to get bogged down with specs, especially with Apple.
I had originally wanted to include the detailed sheet of specs for each system. I figure I'd have to create an entire website in order to do that.


Thanks for the insight,

m

[torifile]

Good overall review, but a couple of points: first it's www.apple.com not www.aaple.com Next, the comparison of your powerbook and the dell whatever POS... you can't compare laptops without considering 2 things: BATTERY LIFE and WEIGHT. I'm sure that the powerbook would win both of these handily. I can't emphasize enough the importance of battery life for a notebook and the PPCs will always win this one. That may not be enough to tip the scales in the powerbook's favor, but it at least deserves some type of mention. Good job

[Subzero Diesel949]

Hmmm...good review.

However, IMHO the Apple laptops, especially the iBook (both older revs. and the iceBook), will always beat out PC laptops when it comes to battery life.

[crazycylon]

Wow past life therapy at the aaple link by Dr. Netherton.

Liked the comparisons. You did a good job. As torifile said, one of the things you should fix is the apple link. It neat that a typo went to a real web site.

[matttichenor]

I have added detailed breakdowns of all the systems that were compared. Hope this helps.


http://mypage.direct.ca/n/nticheno/applevsdell.html


m

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: matttichenor ]

[khrome]

I just got eaten alive on another board for being on the opposite side of this argument (that Macs had roughly comparable hardware), so let me sum it up for everyone here:
The Mac :
Dual 800MHz G4
133MHz system bus
256MB PC 133 SDRAM
40GB ATA Drive
DVD/CD-RW
NVIDIA GeForce2 MX (32MB)
Gigabit Ethernet
2 USB ports
2 Firewire ports
1 4x AGP slot
4 33Mhz PCI slots
Keyboard
Mouse
3 Year Warranty

Total Price: $3,169

The Dell:
Dual 1.5 GHz Xeon
400MHz system bus
256MB PC 600 RDRAM
40GB ATA Drive
DVD/CD-RW
NVIDIA GeForce2 GTS (32MB)
10/100 Ethernet (+$279 for Gigabit)
4 USB ports
2 Firewire ports
2 serial ports
1 parallel port
1 4x AGP slot
3 33Mhz PCI slots
2 66Mhz PCI slots
Dual PCI bus
Keyboard
Mouse
Floppy Drive
3 Year Warranty

Total Price: $2,562 ($2,841 (for Gb Ethernet))

I really hate to admit it but there is just no comparison with hardware anymore, and it seems like it is going to take Apple a while to catch up (regardless of if the G4s are faster than x86 processors that run at twice their clock). When I started using a Mac there was a clear advantage in software and hardware, now just as the OS is catching up (and surpassing) the competition, they have let their hardware get so far behind the only people who will buy these things (the desktops) are those of us who Just HAVE to run OS X on the best hardware possible.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: khrome ]

[groverat]

Dell v. Mac comparison

[applenut1]

alright, this is a post I made at the xlr8yourmac forums the other day:

I read through Mark's thread and I thought I would do my own comparison.

Dell 4100
1.1 Ghz Pentium 3
60 GB ATA/100 HD
128 MB PC 133 RAM
MS Windows 2000 Professional
64 MB DDR Nvidia Geforce 2 Ultra (best they had)
8x/4x/32x Combo Drive
Floppy Drive
250 MB Iomega ZIP drive w/2 disks
Integrated sound
harmon/kardon speakers (cheapest they had)
56K Modem
Intel pro 100+ Ethernet PCI card
Dell mobile wireless networking card
Quietkey keyboard
Intellimouse
Dell Movie Studio
4-6 pin Firewire cable
$2,053

PowerMac G4 (Quicksilver)
867 Mhz G4 with 2 MB/L3 cache
128 MB PC 133 RAM
60 GB Ultra ATA HD
ZIp 250 w/1 disk
8x8x32x combo drive
Nvidia geforce 3 64 MB DDR RAM
56K internal modem
On board 10/100/1000 Ethernet
Airport Card
Apple pro keyboard
Apple pro Mouse
Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X
iMovie, iTunes, iTools
$2,798

alright, just glancing at it it's not that bad. but if you look deeper the Mac is obviously the better buy.

reasoning?
1.) The Dell has 5 PCI slots. The Power Mac g4 has 4. BUT, the get the Dell with nearly comparable specs it required 4 PCI slots to be used! So, you are left with 1 while the G4 has a full 4.
2.) The G4 has a gigabit Ethernet vs 100+.
3.) The G4 has more internal expansion bays but the Dell has more external. so depending on the user one could be better than the other.
4.) The Power Mac g4 has a geforce 3 compared to the Dell's Geforce 2 Ultra. The Dell had no Geforce 3 option
5.) The Combo drive will not play dvds with this confiuration apparantly and Windows 2000 is apparantly incompatible with the Dell Movie Studio.
6.) I configured this system with a 867 Mhz g4 but I'm sure a 733 would compete quite well with the 1.1 Ghz P3 as well. Choosing a 733 saves you $300.
7.) The Dell has a maximum of 512 MB RAM while the Mac can handle 1.5GB.
8.) The Mac looks a hell of a lot cooler
9.) The Mac OS is arguably better


So, what do you think? Of course Macs are going to be more... Apple needs to do much more R/D. Remember they actually have to develop and OS and software and services, and even the hardware.

[matttichenor]

Did I miss something or did both of those comparison posts completely ignore the DVD Superdirve. Maybe I just did not see it but any comparison of these computers requires two systems that have DVD Burners.


m

[matttichenor]

Did I miss something or did both of those comparison posts completely ignore the DVD Superdirve. Maybe I just did not see it but any comparison of these computers requires two systems that have DVD Burners.


m

[khrome]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>Did I miss something or did both of those comparison posts completely ignore the DVD Superdirve. Maybe I just did not see it but any comparison of these computers requires two systems that have DVD Burners.


m</STRONG>

The reason the superdrive is ignored is because it is 100% hype, I quote from another board: "The drive first shipped with Compaq and then renamed Superdrive by Apple when they OEMed it is the Pioneer DVR-103 which has been renamed the Pioneer DVR-A03 to prevent confusion between it and the more professional (and 5X more expensive) DVR-102. Best Buy is currently selling them with DVD software for $799". This is what we know as the "superdrive", it is an OEM product, and is not really good for comparison since most manufacturers don't offer it as a build to order option. The only way to get a realistic comparison of prices is to compare systems that a as closely feature equivalent as possible.

[khrome]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>Did I miss something or did both of those comparison posts completely ignore the DVD Superdirve. Maybe I just did not see it but any comparison of these computers requires two systems that have DVD Burners.


m</STRONG>

The reason the superdrive is ignored is because it is 100% hype, I quote from another board: "The drive first shipped with Compaq and then renamed Superdrive by Apple when they OEMed it is the Pioneer DVR-103 which has been renamed the Pioneer DVR-A03 to prevent confusion between it and the more professional (and 5X more expensive) DVR-102. Best Buy is currently selling them with DVD software for $799". This is what we know as the "superdrive", it is an OEM product, and is not really good for comparison since most manufacturers don't offer it as a build to order option. The only way to get a realistic comparison of prices is to compare systems that a as closely feature equivalent as possible.

[khrome]

&gt;Dell 4100
&gt;1.1 Ghz Pentium 3
&gt;60 GB ATA/100 HD
&gt;128 MB PC 133 RAM
&gt;MS Windows 2000 Professional
&gt;64 MB DDR Nvidia Geforce 2 Ultra (best they had)
&gt;8x/4x/32x Combo Drive
&gt;Floppy Drive
&gt;250 MB Iomega ZIP drive w/2 disks
&gt;Integrated sound
&gt;harmon/kardon speakers (cheapest they had)
&gt;56K Modem
&gt;Intel pro 100+ Ethernet PCI card
&gt;Dell mobile wireless networking card
&gt;Quietkey keyboard
&gt;Intellimouse
&gt;Dell Movie Studio
&gt;4-6 pin Firewire cable
&gt;$2,053

I went and configured the same computer with a couple of exceptions and here is what I came up with: The cable and extra Zip disks were just added to increase the price, so I removed them. The GeForce2 MX with TV out has hardware Decoding of DVDs, so it is a better choice, and A DVD Drive with a seperate CD-RW is both cheaper and more convenient. I also picked the 3COM networking card (a better option(and marginally more expensive))My final Price? $1,417 (how can you argue with that?)


reasoning?
&gt;1.) The Dell has 5 PCI slots. The Power Mac g4 has 4. BUT, the get the Dell with nearly comparable specs it required 4 PCI slots to be used! So, you are left with 1 while the G4 has a full 4.

The Dell has 2 seperate buses though, 2 of which operate at 66MHz as opposed to 33. So from a performance point of view the Dell wins without a contest.

&gt;2.) The G4 has a gigabit Ethernet vs 100+.

EASILY added with all that extra cash, or with a better base model (instead of a crappy 4100)

&gt;3.) The G4 has more internal expansion bays but the Dell has more external. so depending on the user one could be better than the other.

External bays are more flexible than internal, since you can always add a drive and leave the slot-cover on, whereas you can't install a removable drive in an internal slot.

&gt;4.) The Power Mac g4 has a geforce 3 compared to the Dell's Geforce 2 Ultra. The Dell had no Geforce 3 option

Of course, this has nothing to do with capability. you chose a poor base model as the basis of your comparison, MANY other dells have FAR superior graphics cards as options (see the more high-end price comparison I posted above)

&gt;5.) The Combo drive will not play dvds with this confiuration apparantly and Windows 2000 is apparantly incompatible with the Dell Movie Studio.

Because you specifically picked an incompatible graphics card.

&gt;6.) I configured this system with a 867 Mhz g4 but I'm sure a 733 would compete quite well with the 1.1 Ghz P3 as well. Choosing a 733 saves you $300.

This is arguable, although I still like to believe the G4 is faster (beyond photoshop benchmarks).

&gt;7.) The Dell has a maximum of 512 MB RAM while the Mac can handle 1.5GB.

Try a better base model.

&gt;8.) The Mac looks a hell of a lot cooler

No contest, but I can always buy a swank case for roughly a hundred bucks from colorcases.com

&gt;9.) The Mac OS is arguably better

This is the one point where I agree with your analysis... OS X is awesome


I really wish someone would post something that would make me regain my faith in Apple hardware, but I just don't think it's going to happen. At this point I feel like their gouging a brand name for all it's worth.

[applenut1]

The cable and extra Zip disks were just added to increase the price, so I removed them

WHY!? the powermac comes with them? this is suppose to be as closely matched a comparison as possible. you can't take them away from the powermac so I added them to the dell. you'd have to buy them anyway.

The GeForce2 MX with TV out has hardware Decoding of DVDs, so it is a better choice

no it isn't. the mac has a geforce 3. how is a 100 dollar piece of **** card comparable to a 500 dollar top of the line card. get real. I went with the geforce 2 ultra because its the fastest thing Dell ships. the geforce 3 is the fastest apple ships.

so it is a better choice, and A DVD Drive with a seperate CD-RW is both cheaper and more convenient.

more convenient how? by taking up 2 of the 5.25 inch bays that you are claiming as an advantage. the mac ships with a combo drive, therefore the dell should too.

The Dell has 2 seperate buses though, 2 of which operate at 66MHz as opposed to 33. So from a performance point of view the Dell wins without a contest.

Apple doubled the PCI bandwidth with the digital audio G4 release. you haven't provided any proof that the dell outperforms.

and you also don't dispute that the dell is only left with 1 open after making the Dell equal to the mac in features.

I also picked the 3COM networking card (a better option(and marginally more expensive))

how is it a better solution? isn't 100+ faster than 10/100. I honestly don't know because its the first time I've seen a 100+ card but I would assume so and therefore make it closer to gigabit.

External bays are more flexible than internal, since you can always add a drive and leave the slot-cover on, whereas you can't install a removable drive in an internal slot.

you already used both 5.25 inch bays so the external bay advantage is lost because you are left with 3 3.25 inch bays which th mac has one external and 3 internal. no advantage. my configuration with the combo drive would have been more beneficial to the dell as far as expansion

Of course, this has nothing to do with capability. you chose a poor base model as the basis of your comparison, MANY other dells have FAR superior graphics cards as options (see the more high-end price comparison I posted above)

why do you keep bringing up the base model for. this is the most popular dell desktop from what I understand. this one doesn't have as superior a graphic card and yet the mac is still the better choice price/performance wise

Because you specifically picked an incompatible graphics card

I did not! I picked the fastest card, a geforce 2 ultra, and a combo drive. it's my fault that dell sucks and their own drives are incompatible with their graphic cards.

I really wish someone would post something that would make me regain my faith in Apple hardware, but I just don't think it's going to happen. At this point I feel like their gouging a brand name for all it's worth.

perhaps you should come up with a better rebuttal than use a better base model and by cutting down features saying you can add them later or that its a more convenient option.

P.S. excuse any typos, I'm sure there are many, it's too late to proof read

[Subzero Diesel949]

The four magic words uttered by every incompetent, computer-challenged Joe Consumer:

BUT IT RUNS WINDOWS!

I would throw in my two cents regarding AppleNut1's post, but it's getting late. :o

[khrome]

You, know... I was going to post a long diatribe about the Dell 8100 and how in addition to having ALL the features the G4 has (other than running Mac OS and having a G4 processor) (yes that includes the GeForce 3(which is not the best card they ship) and a CD-RW /DVD (though I'd still rather have 2 seperate drives)) yet costing $1,955 (before a $150 rebate), But I really don't think it will matter much: You seem Intent on beleiving the Apple hardware is better. Do you realize that GeForce card ALONE maxes out the Mac's system bus?(which is also the reason we are stuck with SDRAM) You are also intent on comparison and totally ignore features the Dell has that the Mac doesn't. Until people like you wake up and realize that Apple is slipping in the hardware arena, they will continue to do so, since they have no incentive to correct their (going on 2 years) string of mistakes. So if you really want to know the truth go configure an 8100, or for that matter configure under the workstation area (rather than the home/office desktop area), the results are shocking.

[matttichenor]

Question to Krome,

How can you sugest so simply that Apple is slipping in the Hardware arena when their systems ship standard with built in Firewire X2, built in Gigabit Ethernet, built in DVD Writing, Built in CD Writing, Built in NVIDIA GeForce 3, Built in DVI, Built in USB Hubs, Built in Optical Mouse, Built in Digital sound, Built in Airport, and the absulute simplest system to upgrade, bar none. After all of this technology has been added to a Dell machine, you have no room to upgrade. Hell, some of their systems haven't even got a 56K modem built in, let alone ethernet. I just can't see how Apple is slipping in the hardware arena when they ship their systems standard with some of the most up to date hardware available. The only area where I see a gap between Apple's technology and the PC world is the system BUS and the RAM specs (DDRAM). But the G4 ships with a massive 2MB backside L3 cache and a decent 256K on-chip L2 cache. Seems to me to be a pretty potent system as far as hardware is concerned. Now please don't respond by saying that I don't need Gigabit Ethernet or DVD writing, because it is not a question of need it is simply a question of which system comes with the most current technologies.


m

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: matttichenor ]

[applenut1]

Originally posted by khrome:
<STRONG>You, know... I was going to post a long diatribe about the Dell 8100 and how in addition to having ALL the features the G4 has (other than running Mac OS and having a G4 processor) (yes that includes the GeForce 3(which is not the best card they ship) and a CD-RW /DVD (though I'd still rather have 2 seperate drives)) yet costing $1,955 (before a $150 rebate), But I really don't think it will matter much: You seem Intent on beleiving the Apple hardware is better. Do you realize that GeForce card ALONE maxes out the Mac's system bus?(which is also the reason we are stuck with SDRAM) You are also intent on comparison and totally ignore features the Dell has that the Mac doesn't. Until people like you wake up and realize that Apple is slipping in the hardware arena, they will continue to do so, since they have no incentive to correct their (going on 2 years) string of mistakes. So if you really want to know the truth go configure an 8100, or for that matter configure under the workstation area (rather than the home/office desktop area), the results are shocking.</STRONG>

wow. you are a complete joke man. me wake up and realize that apple is slipping in the hardware arena? obviously you aren't around much because I constantly criticize apple's hardware and say it sucks. go read the powermac g4 forum.

All I did was make a comparison. The 8100 probably does compare better. but the 4100 doesn't. accept that and shut up until you get a clue.

[nana2]

Just a quick correction on the original comparison by matttichenor, the Dell Inspiron 8000 laptop comes with 1 built-in IEEE 1394 (Firewire) port built in. Also it is available with either a DVD/CD-RW combo drive or a DVD drive plus a CD-RW drive, both running internally. Or slip out the device in the media bay and slot in a second battery/hard disk/floppy drive. The 15" Ultra XGA screen (1600*1200) has a resolution of 133dpi. Also, you can get a combo internal mini pci card that provides the 56K modem plus 10/100BaseT. This frees the PCMCIA slots for the wireless networking card.


Or for $3,522 you can get an Inspiron 8100 series with 1.13GHz Tualatin processor with 512KB of on-die cache and 133MHz frontside bus speed. Also comes with 30GB drive, this pricing is with a 6X combo drive internally, you can add an internal dvd drive for $129 if you like. Also Dell has a double memory free offer, so it's specced with 128MB and will be delivered with 256MB.

[nana2]

Apple is only getting further and further behind every year, at the start of the '90s Apple and PC's were neck and neck, with Apple sometimes faster, sometimes not, as new generations of chips were released. But now it is pretty sad to see. It shows what a non-competitive hardware market can do.

[nana2]

Careful there khrome, you are dangerously close to bursting the RDF(Reality distortion field) bubble that Lord Steve has placed over the Mac line.

[Fredo]

I find these comparisons fascinating. The least that can be said is that this level of competition benefits the consumer. Thank all of you for the information.

[khrome]

Sorry it took so long, but I've been out of town, and I don't really check this sort of stuff too frequently:

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>Question to Krome,

How can you sugest so simply that Apple is slipping in the Hardware arena when their systems ship standard with built in Firewire X2,</STRONG>

I didn't realize this was Included, which is nice. But since they develop this technology it'd be a pretty poor showing if they didn't

<STRONG>
built in Gigabit Ethernet,
</STRONG>

Personally I have no current need for this, but it is a nice feature.

<STRONG>
built in DVD Writing, Built in CD Writing, Built in NVIDIA GeForce 3,
</STRONG>

All these are OEM solutions, and like all the options in the apple store they charge out the nose for them.

<STRONG>
Built in DVI,
</STRONG>

This is actually one of the things that annoys me. It's like the old video connector on the 6100, 7100 and 8100(the name escapes me at the moment). sure it's nice to have all that in one, but now you have to buy an adapter to use anyone's monitors other than apple's. It'd be nice, with all this mark-up they're making, to throw one in for free.

<STRONG>
Built in USB Hubs,
</STRONG>

I never said anything bad about their monitors

<STRONG>
Built in Optical Mouse,
</STRONG>

Oh, yeah the built-in one button mouse. it ships standard with a mouse everyone replaces... nice feature.

<STRONG>
Built in Digital sound,
</STRONG>

I suppose other manufacturers are including vacuum tubes with their systems?

<STRONG>
Built in Airport,
</STRONG>

Another good feature, but I am increasingly worried that if another standard beats out the Airport, we may be stuck with another "nubus".

<STRONG>
and the absulute simplest system to upgrade, bar none.
</STRONG>

Of course this has to do with the external casing which has gone unmodified since my B&W G3 (Which I consider the last machine apple made(that wasn't a powerbook), that really smoked the competition).

<STRONG>
After all of this technology has been added to a Dell machine, you have no room to upgrade. Hell, some of their systems haven't even got a 56K modem built in, let alone ethernet.
</STRONG>

1) after configuring the Dell system I would have two slots, and think about this: If say, a better networking standard comes out: I just pull out that card and swap in the new one, with the mac you put in a new one and you have this useless port on your motherboard. I also consider no 56k Modem standard a feature.

<STRONG>
I just can't see how Apple is slipping in the hardware arena when they ship their systems standard with some of the most up to date hardware available. The only area where I see a gap between Apple's technology and the PC world is the system BUS and the RAM specs (DDRAM).
</STRONG>

you are right but this is the equivalent of McDonnell-Douglas Saying "we've got this new jet Mr. Reagan and it's going to kick some commie ass, it's got the fastest jets, the newest stealth system, and the best gosh-darn automatic guidance system around", but neglecting to mention it's held together with bailing wire.(Sorry I couldn't resist that analogy)

<STRONG>
But the G4 ships with a massive 2MB backside L3 cache and a decent 256K on-chip L2 cache. Seems to me to be a pretty potent system as far as hardware is concerned.
</STRONG>

The backside cache is nice ("Massive" LOL), but then again they keep spouting "balanced system performance", then took the cache off the low end model. and if the 133MHz system clock can't load that cache fast enough, what then?

<STRONG>
Now please don't respond by saying that I don't need Gigabit Ethernet or DVD writing, because it is not a question of need it is simply a question of which system comes with the most current technologies.
</STRONG>

Actually it is more like (features)/(competition's features)*(price). You are only looking at one aspect of the total equation. No one said they made bad machines, only that they aren't measuring up to the competition. The fact is the one thing they do make (the MoBo) is a totally mediocre product.

-abbey

[khrome]

Originally posted by applenut1:
<STRONG>

wow. you are a complete joke man. me wake up and realize that apple is slipping in the hardware arena? obviously you aren't around much because I constantly criticize apple's hardware and say it sucks. go read the powermac g4 forum.

All I did was make a comparison. The 8100 probably does compare better. but the 4100 doesn't. accept that and shut up until you get a clue.</STRONG>

Well, Sorry I didn't read every post you've ever made before responding to this thread. My point was simply: the 4100 is a mid-range machine, Apple doesn't make a mid-range machine so what is the point of comparing the 4100 to anything?

-abbey
(perhaps total or utter, but never complete)

[matttichenor]

"Actually it is more like (features)/(competition's features)*(price). You are only looking at one aspect of the total equation. No one said they made bad machines, only that they aren't measuring up to the competition. The fact is the one thing they do make (the MoBo) is a totally mediocre product."

Heres' the deal Krome, why don't you tell us what features the Dell machine has that the Mac doesn't. Make a list, do a comparison. Point by point. 'Cause I just don't get it, every one of these specs that I've listed are important items that are great to have built into a system. I want to know exactly what specs it is that you are referring to when you say that Dell comes standard with better hardware than the Mac. Prove me wrong. Be as subjective as you need to be. If you like the fact that the Dell comes with out a modem, include that. Remember, it has to be included (or not included in your case) in the system, that means no upgrades, no configuring, right out of the box at that particular price point. I mean, at one point you say, "I have no use for Gigabit Ethernet" suggesting that feature is useless, then go on to say that you have an extra PCI slot for a new networking card should it eventually come to market. Translation "I don't want the most current up to date networking protocol built in to my system, I want to wait until later so I can pay for it as a seperate card and then spend an hour configuring it myself". Maybe you know of some new protocol that is just around the corner, but if you have no use for Gigabit, why are you interested in other high speed protocols.

I want to see exactly what features are so important to you. Please, make a list so I can see what it is the Dell has to offer as built in features.


m

[groverat]

Alienware Aurora DDR:
1.4ghz Athlon
256MB PC-2100 DDR-RAM
60GB 7200rpm HD
GeForce3 w/ TV-Out
16xDVD w/ 12x/8x/32x CD-RW
Subwoofer w/ 4 satellite speakers
10/100 3Com ethernet
3 year On-Site tech support
- $2262

Apple PowerMac G4 "Fastest":
867mhz G4
256MB PC-133 SD-RAM
60GB 7200rpm HD
GeForce3
CD-RW/DVD combo (8x DVD, 8x/8x/32x CD-RW)
Apple pro speakers
gigabit ethernet
3 year Applecare
- $2912

Processor: Duh.
RAM: Alienware wins again, but not by much, PC-2100 doesn't offer much over PC-133 (10-20% correct me if I'm wrong)
HD: Tie
VidCard: Alienware if you consider TV-Out useful, I don't, so it's a tie.
CD-RW/DVD: Tough category since Alienware doesn't offer DVD-R. I give Apple the edge b/c of the BTO option (even though aftermarket is cheaper
Sound: Alienware
networking: Apple wins w/ gigabit. Modems are for lamers.
Tech support: tie
Price: Another duh.

Apple's record: 1-4-3
Alienware: 4-1-3

[Leonard]

and the Mac vs PC war wages on... and on and on... and on and on...

anyone wounded yet??

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Leonard ]

[matttichenor]

GroveRat,

You forgot software, Digital Video, Wireless and OS.

4 More Points for Apple.


m

[groverat]

You forgot software, Digital Video, Wireless and OS.

1 point for Apple on the DV Software end.
Wireless is available to both for more $$. OS is a toss-up. DV hadware can easily be had with the $700 in savings.

[matttichenor]

Here is another system, this one geared towards what Apple does best, Proffesional Digital Video. Apple beats the price of the PC while also including the Superdrive.

Apple PowerMac G4
867MHZ fastest
NVIDIA GeForce 3
60GB Ultra ATA
256MB RAM
SuperDrive DVDR
Final Cut Pro 2 RT MAC
(w/ Matrox RealTime Editing PCI Card)
Matrox Breakout Box
Contour Design Shuttle PRO
Gigabit Ethernet
Lexmark Z53
iTunes
iDVD
Quicktime
OS9 OSX
Pro Speakers
$4355


Aurora 2001DV
Pentium 1.8GHZ P4
256MB RAM
60GB Ultra ATA
NVIDIA GeForce 3
Campus DVStorm D/A (Pro Real Time Editng software w/ storm Bay)
DVD 16X
CDRW 12X10X32X
Speakers & Sub
Lexmark Z53
Windows ME
Windows Media Player (bleck!)
Added 10/100 Ethernet
$4505


Scorecard:
Processor: Aurora (Maybe)
RAM: Aurora
Sound: Aurora
CDRW/DVDR: Apple
Networking: Apple
Software: Apple
Price: Apple
Digital Video: Apple (FCP 2 is by far the best and the new standard)
AddOns: Apple (The shuttle pro is worth $125)
VidCard: Tie
Suppot: Tie
HD: Tie

1 Point Win
.5 Point Tie

Apple: 7.5
Aurora: 4.5

We could de this for hours

The scorecard should really be weighted in favor of better features. For example the DVDR drive is much more usefull than more speakers yet each gets one point.
m


Never say the OS is a toss up on the MACNN Forums, you might get tossed

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: matttichenor ]

[Nimisys]

a couple points of note here....

first off GigaBit Eithernet is kinda useless in reality... unless you directly hook it into another Gigabit machine, then you are going through a hub or a switch and i can garuntee you that that switch is only 10/100, so as long as that gigabit eithernet is not touching in any way to something running 10/100 then it'll work... so basicly you can connect two Gigabit machines together and NOT tie them into anything (else unless you go through a second NIC), in order to get your Gigabit connections. Assuming you even have wire capable of it (and trust me gigabit is a strech for Cat5E) otherwise that gigabit is just a fancy 10/100 port...

as for the superdrive... it can be added to any PC for 650$ less than the bto otion from Apple... and for configuring time it is the same as a cdrom... hook up the ribbon cable (pin 1 towards the power) and the power cable and your done. adding one is easier than in a mac as well since all you do is remove the cover, take out the front bezel and slide the drive in.

Firewire isn't an expensive BTO option either for anyone to do... less than 30$, and an increasing number of mobos are coming with it now that there is suffiecent demand.

Wireless networking is kinda useless for a desktop setup as well, the speeds are far below the 10baseT level and since it is in a set place there is no reason why a wired connection can't be used.

Now if i was in charge of a Digital Video Studio i woulnd't be looking at the large OEMs for my stuff... i would look at having someone deisgn the systems form the grouind up centered around MY needs, not trying to peice together whatever options OEMS provide to see which one would come the closest to serving my needs fully. i think thats an important thing you guys are missing.

[matttichenor]

"first off GigaBit Eithernet is kinda useless in reality"

Wrong. Gigabit is very useful for anyone who plans on implementing a high speed network now or in the future and has the money to afford it. ie. DV creation and multimedia companies who want to have the highest speed transfers from machine to machine. Yeah, for consumers, right now, perhaps it is overkill, but the whole point is it's included. We are comparing what's included in the machines as you order them. The fact that the Apple systems come with Gigabit is obviously better than not including it at all. Your argument as to whether or not having it is useful is both subjective and moot. The point is it's there, it's the best available and it's built in. Whether or not you personally have a use for it is not an issue for this discussion. Furthermore, don't you think we could have been having the same conversation several years ago when 10 BaseT was being upgraded with 10/100. Then you would have said the same thing, 'yeah it has 10/100 but nobody offers hubs that support that transfer speed, and cabling is too expensive." Well now it's standard and every useful switch/hub uses the faster standard. It's called evolution and Apple has often been at the forefront of including hardware that was not necessarily in wide use yet, but was going to end up becoming a standard. I can't believe we're having this argument. The whole point of the original conversation was which computer offered the most up to date hardware specs built-in and at what cost. Gigabit is better than 10/100, it's built-in to the Mac, case closed.


"as for the superdrive... it can be added to any PC for 650$ less than the bto otion from Apple"

Who cares how much it costs to add it to a PC, Again, we are comparing what is included in the systems and at what cost. The Damn drive is INCLUDED on the Mac that I compared. You don't have to buy it from a third party, you don't have to install it yourself, you don't have to install drivers. It's there, It works and it's not available built in from these PC manufacturers.

"adding one is easier than in a mac as well since all you do is remove the cover, take out the front bezel and slide the drive in."


You're nuts. How is adding a Superdirve to a PC easier than having one come built in to the Mac? Explain that. You're right with the PC you have to open the case, slide the drive in and connect it. Then install the drivers. With the Mac you double click the iDVD icon. How is it easier on the PC?


"Firewire isn't an expensive BTO option either for anyone to do"

Are you not listening, we are talking what about what is INCLUDED. The entire pont was that with the Mac you don't have to pay extra for or install any third party cards, devices, drives whatever. In order to meet the Mac specs you have to add Firewire cards, drives, network cards. UGGH! I give up.

Wireless networking is kinda useless for a desktop setup as well, the speeds are far below the 10baseT

You don't know what you are talking about. Again, maybe for you, one computer does not need wireless, but think about companies or even individuals who have several computers; both Desktop and Laptops in different areas of Home or office who don't want to cable up the entire place. Not only is it easier it is also much cheaper and cleaner. Furthermore the transfer speed is 11Mbs and it is that fast under decent conditions. And again, it doesn't matter, the point is that Apple offers it built-in to the system, yes the card costs a bit more but the slot and the antenna are built in. I have used Airport several times, slide the card in and it works, without Restarting. The stinking thing starts itself up, you literally don't have to do anything. It's seemless and it's included on the Mac. And that's what we are talking about. What is INCLUDED.

Now if i was in charge of a Digital Video Studio i woulnd't be looking at the large OEMs for my stuff... i would look at having someone deisgn the systems form the grouind up centered around MY needs, not trying to peice together whatever options OEMS provide to see which one would come the closest to serving my needs fully. i think thats an important thing you guys are missing.

I'm not even going to approach this one. All I can say is have fun troubleshooting all of those machines while high paid animators, editors and most importantly clients wait impatiently.



m

[khrome]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>"first off GigaBit Eithernet is kinda useless in reality"

Wrong. Gigabit is very useful for anyone who plans on implementing a high speed network now or in the future and has the money to afford it. ie. DV creation and multimedia companies who want to have the highest speed transfers from machine to machine. Yeah, for consumers, right now, perhaps it is overkill, but the whole point is it's included. We are comparing what's included in the machines as you order them. The fact that the Apple systems come with Gigabit is obviously better than not including it at all. Your argument as to whether or not having it is useful is both subjective and moot. The point is it's there, it's the best available and it's built in. Whether or not you personally have a use for it is not an issue for this discussion. Furthermore, don't you think we could have been having the same conversation several years ago when 10 BaseT was being upgraded with 10/100. Then you would have said the same thing, 'yeah it has 10/100 but nobody offers hubs that support that transfer speed, and cabling is too expensive." Well now it's standard and every useful switch/hub uses the faster standard. It's called evolution and Apple has often been at the forefront of including hardware that was not necessarily in wide use yet, but was going to end up becoming a standard. I can't believe we're having this argument. The whole point of the original conversation was which computer offered the most up to date hardware specs built-in and at what cost. Gigabit is better than 10/100, it's built-in to the Mac, case closed.
</STRONG>

I never implied Gigabit Ethernet is useless, just that I don't really appreciate paying for it when I won't use it any time soon. If I wanted it I *would* pay for it.

I hate to be the guy to tell you this, but everything I have been talking about concerns HARDWARE that is feature equivalent. Don't you think comparing base specs is a little arbitrary?

<STRONG>


"as for the superdrive... it can be added to any PC for 650$ less than the bto otion from Apple"

Who cares how much it costs to add it to a PC, Again, we are comparing what is included in the systems and at what cost. The Damn drive is INCLUDED on the Mac that I compared. You don't have to buy it from a third party, you don't have to install it yourself, you don't have to install drivers. It's there, It works and it's not available built in from these PC manufacturers.
</STRONG>

Once again, if I, and any other reasonable person, want to compare prices of systems with the closest possible configurations, that is absolutely within our rights. Personally I think it is ludicrous to think that a comparison should be limited to a systems "default" when both companies have websites that build to order.

<STRONG>

"adding one is easier than in a mac as well since all you do is remove the cover, take out the front bezel and slide the drive in."

You're nuts. How is adding a Superdirve to a PC easier than having one come built in to the Mac? Explain that. You're right with the PC you have to open the case, slide the drive in and connect it. Then install the drivers. With the Mac you double click the iDVD icon. How is it easier on the PC?
</STRONG>

You are right... he must have been smokin that rock when he posted that. But doesn't change the fact it's still pretty easy on a PC.

<STRONG>
"Firewire isn't an expensive BTO option either for anyone to do"

Are you not listening, we are talking what about what is INCLUDED. The entire pont was that with the Mac you don't have to pay extra for or install any third party cards, devices, drives whatever. In order to meet the Mac specs you have to add Firewire cards, drives, network cards. UGGH! I give up.
</STRONG>

So you say, but as I pointed out above this isn't a very good way to compare computers.

<STRONG>
Wireless networking is kinda useless for a desktop setup as well, the speeds are far below the 10baseT

You don't know what you are talking about. Again, maybe for you, one computer does not need wireless, but think about companies or even individuals who have several computers; both Desktop and Laptops in different areas of Home or office who don't want to cable up the entire place. Not only is it easier it is also much cheaper and cleaner. Furthermore the transfer speed is 11Mbs and it is that fast under decent conditions. And again, it doesn't matter, the point is that Apple offers it built-in to the system, yes the card costs a bit more but the slot and the antenna are built in. I have used Airport several times, slide the card in and it works, without Restarting. The stinking thing starts itself up, you literally don't have to do anything. It's seemless and it's included on the Mac. And that's what we are talking about. What is INCLUDED.
</STRONG>

Once again, you gotta get off that INCLUDED kick. and you can't claim the frikkin antenna as a feature!!!! it's two wires connected to a metal plate and a wiring assembly, jeez! It's only there to generate apple more revenue. also Is there anyone who would simultaneously use that GB ethernet AND Airport &lt;sound of crickets in the night&gt;?

<STRONG>
Now if i was in charge of a Digital Video Studio i woulnd't be looking at the large OEMs for my stuff... i would look at having someone deisgn the systems form the grouind up centered around MY needs, not trying to peice together whatever options OEMS provide to see which one would come the closest to serving my needs fully. i think thats an important thing you guys are missing.

I'm not even going to approach this one. All I can say is have fun troubleshooting all of those machines while high paid animators, editors and most importantly clients wait impatiently.</STRONG>

Yes, he was once again wrong about this, because businesses want accountability.

If you can adequately justify why "default" comparisons are more valid than feature equivalent machines I will continue this conversation. Otherwise, why would I care?

-abbey

[matttichenor]

The point was that the Apple system I was comparing included these items, Gigabit, SuperDrive etc. and still beat the PC system as far as price was concerned. Therefore does it not make sense that the Apple system is a better buy because it includes these items at a better price than the PC system that does not include them, even if you never plan on using them? Or is it better to buy a super stripped down PC at a lower cost and add to it later? As far as I can see, we are arguing different points. My original post was in response to people who suggest you get very little bang for you buck when you buy a Mac. The argument was that Apple computers carry a larger price tag while including less features. My point all along was that this was incorrect when you actually properly compare the systems spec by spec. The Apple system has better feautures (whether you use them or not) while carrying a slightly smaller price tag. That was the argument. Admittedly, if Apple offered a more base system that did not include these items then I guess you could compare it to PCs that also don't have them, but apple doesn't offer computers without firewire and ethernet anymore, nor should they.


m

[khrome]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>The point was that the Apple system I was comparing included these items, Gigabit, SuperDrive etc. and still beat the PC system as far as price was concerned. Therefore does it not make sense that the Apple system is a better buy because it includes these items at a better price than the PC system that does not include them, even if you never plan on using them? Or is it better to buy a super stripped down PC at a lower cost and add to it later? As far as I can see, we are arguing different points.</STRONG>

No, you very explicitly said that build-to-order systems did not count. As far as I can tell built to order does not mean that you are nebulously adding the component "some time in the future". If you notice the comparisons I showed always had the PC winning in terms of price, performance and features(hardware). I pointed out that when I configured the same systems you used my prices did not match yours (as did iCartman). And when I do respond point-by-point to your posts you simply ignore my responses and try to introduce a technicality (ala the "default configuration" argument). Let me make this very clear: We are talking about the very same thing. We just seem to disagree on the protocol by which we come to a conclusion.

<STRONG> My original post was in response to people who suggest you get very little bang for you buck when you buy a Mac. The argument was that Apple computers carry a larger price tag while including less features. My point all along was that this was incorrect when you actually properly compare the systems spec by spec. The Apple system has better feautures (whether you use them or not) while carrying a slightly smaller price tag.</STRONG>

Wrong, Apple has some better features (well, one anyway: Superdrive), though it lacks in many other areas, and beyond the premium you pay for the system itself, it gouges you on the available expansions as well. If that weren't enough, the "superdrive" is available for any PC at a *retail* price which is comparable to that of the Apple Store.

<STRONG> That was the argument. Admittedly, if Apple offered a more base system that did not include these items then I guess you could compare it to PCs that also don't have them, but apple doesn't offer computers without firewire and ethernet anymore, nor should they.</STRONG>

Again every PC I compared had ALL of the features of the Mac I compared it to, just because you say it didn't, that does not make it so. I'm sure if you scroll back up you will see the truth in what I say.

Also let me make clear the paradigm of Expansion slots: the idea is technologies which may become obsolete can be put on a card then upgraded as the new technologies come along. more stuff on the motherboard just means more useless ports on the MoBo in a few years and increased latencies as you have increasingly more devices to address.

I hope this clears things up for you, and I am still waiting on that answer(why default configurations are more valid than feature equivalent ones)...

-abbey

[matttichenor]

Indeed, we are debating the same idea with different criteria. I started with the Mac 867MHZ and then configured the 8100 to match it. I'm not sure but it looks like you've started with a configured PC, as you would buy it, and then configured the Mac to match it. The Dual Zeon vs the low end Mac + Dual processor upgrade, DVDCDRW upgrade and 3YR Applecare. The thing that costs so much on that Mac is the Dual Processors upgrade @ $900. I couldn't find the price of the dual processor XEON upgrade but it probably is cheaper. The point I was trying to make when I compared hardware, incl. iMac, iBook, and Powerbook, was that the gap between Mac and PC seems to me to be alot smaller than most people make out. I found that when you committed to one of the Mac systems, Fast, Fastest, Ulitmate, that you end up with a hell of alot more for your money. (see 8100 vs. 867Mhz G4). I concede your point, when it comes to affordability it seems that you can configure a Dell system for a cheaper price. But that configuration doesn't really match any non BTO product available from Apple and perhaps it would be better to compare it with an iMac, although the Dual processors puts it in a middle ground between Pro and Consumer. My feeling is that a consumer who is willing to pay $900 for dual processors probably wouldn't mind paying an extra $350 for both the Superdrive and twice the HardDrive space.

The argument here and on other boards evolved into something about Apple's hardware options being limited and out of date. I still don't see this being the case. Apple's systems ship with very up to date specs and at decent prices. Even though they are higher than the prices of a Dell system, my feeling is having items built in as opposed to add on might be worth the extra money, leaving you more room to upgrade. Just because the current protocol (gigabit) might eventually become extinct, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing to have it on the MOBO, you can still upgrade later, and it leaves room for other things now. My point is that it gives you many current specs, while still offering room for uprgrades.

The reason why I bring up the point about Apple being 'Behind" in the hardware area is that one will argue that Dell's systems are cheaper and then provide evidence of it by configuring a low end system that doesn't really match the specs of the Apple system. Then that same person will turn around and say that Apple offers ****ty hardware at high prices. Seems to me that if you want a good system with good specs Apple is very competetive. Note that in my first comparison the Mac was indeed more expensive than the Dell machine I configured but the point I tried to make was that for that additional money you ended up with a much better computer, as did Applenut1.

We haven't even looked at Apple's other products. But my guess is that we are all getting tired of this boring and ultimately fruitless debate.


FlameOn
Thanks for your time,
m

[matttichenor]

Just for laughs,

Apple Powermac
867MHZ G4
256MB RAM
40GB
DVD/CDRW
GeForce 2
Gigabit
3YR AppleCare
$2498
Upgrade to Dual 800MHZ G4 +$600
Downgrade to 733MHZ -$300

Dell Precision Workstation 530
Single 1.70 GHZ XEON
256 MB RAM
40 GB HD
GeForce 2
DVD/CDRW
3YR Warranty
No Gigabit
$2611
Add a second 1.70 GHZ XEON +$699
Downgrade to Single 1.5 GHZ -$300
Downgrade to Single 1.4 -$455

Looks to me like the biggest differences between these systems has to do with which processors you choose. At that point this argument comes full circle and we're forced to argue which processor is better.

Let me know what you think,
m

[iCartman]

matttichenor, your prices are a bit high for that dell system. It appears as if you might have included OfficeXP in that price. The base price should be $2463

[matttichenor]

iCartman is right, I did accidently include Office XP. That said the Dell system I used does not include Gigabit, Modem or any software.

Pretty similar prices I think...

m

[nana2]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>Add a second 1.70 GHZ XEON +$699</STRONG>

A Xeon 1.7GHz can be bought for $479, with shipping of $11, from enpc.com. That's the beauty of not having to get the second procesor from the manufacturer

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
[QBNow if i was in charge of a Digital Video Studio i woulnd't be looking at the large OEMs for my stuff... i would look at having someone deisgn the systems form the grouind up centered around MY needs, not trying to peice together whatever options OEMS provide to see which one would come the closest to serving my needs fully. i think thats an important thing you guys are missing.

I'm not even going to approach this one. All I can say is have fun troubleshooting all of those machines while high paid animators, editors and most importantly clients wait impatiently.



m[/QB]

congradualtions on missing the context of that post comnpletely....

i am not saying you use the kid down the house on the corner from you, i am talking about consultants and conpanies that do this speciificly as their function. For example if you were going to install a medium size network (figure working off a class B subnet = more than 250 machines) who would you have do it? surely you wouldn't turn to one mfg and have them do it for you? probably not, you would use an outside consultant company to design and implement it for you as it would be customized and tailored to your needs. now take that concept and apply it to the DV side... if you were a real serius company in this market you wouldn't be comparing the specs that the large OEMs have, you would use a consultant that would come in see what you need, where you would be going and design a solution for you. this happens ALL THE TIME in the real world. the consultants are still held accountable as they tend to be the ones that do the implimintation. they also have a much more important reputation to uphold than Apple, or Dell or any other OEM. the time it takse for a consultant to have the machines built and configured would still be less than that from an OEM, they would install it and see that it is configured properly for your employees to use. also since the consulting company could be local it means turn around time on repairs would be less than shipping the machine off to the OEM.

that make since to you?

now as to comparing them Spec to Spec then hows this

Apple Machine ( http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObje...2/3.7.0.3.30.1 )

• 867MHz PowerPC G4
• 256MB SDRAM - 1 DIMM
• 60GB Ultra ATA
• Zip 250
• DVD-R/CD-RW
• GeForce3 - 64MB DDR-SDRAM
• 56K internal modem
• Apple 15" Studio Display
• Apple Pro Keyboard
• Mac OS
• Microsoft Office:Mac 2001
• Gigabit Ethernet
• Two FireWire ports
• Apple Pro Mouse
• 3-yr Apple Care

the PC throgh NEC ( http://www.nec-online.co.uk/our_prod...=717&cee=False )

. 1.4GHz AMD Athlon Processor
. 256MB DDR-RAM
. 60GB Hard Disk Drive
. 16x DVD-ROM Drive
. nVidia GeForce3 Graphics with 64MB DDR-RAM
. PCI Creative SoundBlaster Live (Value)
. Labtec LCS-2632
. PCI V90 Fax/Data Modem
. DVD-Recordable
. Multimedia Software Pack ( Word 2000, Works 2000, Money 2000, Flight Sim Classic, Britannica 99, A.N.D. Route Europe 2000.
. MiniTower Position
. NEC MultiSync TFT LCD 15 inch monitor (15" actual viewable size)
. Ethernet PCI 3Com 3C905 10/100
. Iomega Internal 250MB Zip drive
. 3 years extended on site warranty
. Windows 2000

price for the NEC: � 2 385.25 (including Shipping)
Price for the Apple: �3,818.75 (including Shipping)

what different:
the PC no firewire or gigabit eithernet
the Pc has speakers
the PC has two optical drives : the DVD and the SuperDrive
The Pc uses DDR memory
the PC doesn't come with a 20 day build time

If you want to compare DV setups to DV setups Apple does very well... but to move it to something other than DV and Apple's product value dips. the cost to add Firewire or Gigabit on the PC (while not BTO, but could be done through a local company) is no where near the �1500 difference. the PC also boast more expandability as any component can be removed and upgraded.

[khrome]

Good points, all Nimysis... I would like to add: I know it might look like I'm some PC troller trying to bash Apple, nothing could be further from the truth. The reason I am so concerned with this hardware deficiency is because I have a vested interest in Apple succeeding. OS X gives Apple it's first opportunity in years to actually impress technophiles like us (particularly our PC and *NIX counterparts), but no one will switch if the hardware performance isn't there.

[matttichenor]

Nimisys,


That NEC machine definitely is cheap, although adding items like Microsoft Office 2001 to the Mac only inflates its price. Office is a much better product than the 'Multimedia software pack' that comes with the NEC machine. But nevertheless it still beats the Mac handily at that price. Now didn't I hear that NEC has been known to use refurbished parts in their machines.

In regards to your first point, that I "completely missed the context of"

What digital video software did you plan to use in your customized setup? Adobe Premiere? Avid? Final Cut Pro? My point was that for proffesional applications you'd better be prepeared to deal with companies who know the software and the Hardware inside and out. You might be able to save money and have a completely personalized, customized network, but if even one of your choices is a problem with the other hardware or software, you're screwed. Furthermore, these computers not only have to deal with eachother and the software, they also have to deal with 3rd Party DV equipment and not only Firewire equipment. Beta SP Decks, DAT Machines, new HD Machines etc. Read any Dv or Digital Editing Magazine and you'll see that the choice of DV pros are turnkey systems that are configured, tested and proven to work, not only on their own but also in large networks of similar machines that need to share media. Choices like Avid become obvious and possibly in the next couple of years, if it continues on its current path, Apple could implement large networks of systems specifically designed for certain applications, especially DV, taking a cue from companies like IBM and SUN.
My point is that for these types of applications you're dreaming if you think that you are going to be able to design a network of computers that can handle this kind of workload without problems. Admittedy, there probably are system designers who could implement something on this scale, but if they could they would probably use Apple systems or Avid systems, and they would charge more than if you did it yourself. So how are you ahead at this point? You've hired yourself a consultant who's going to say the same thing, buy Apple, buy Avid.


m

[khrome]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
[QB]
You've hired yourself a consultant who's going to say the same thing, buy Apple, buy Avid.
/QB]

This is totally off-topic, but: I worked with Media composer for 2 years (about 3 years ago), and although it is a very elegant solution it is 1) *WAY* overpriced and 2) Uses very unstable media (I learned to always back up my digitized clips (not that you should ever not back them up... but the fail rate on those optical disks is preposterous)).

-abbey

[khrome]

[thanks for the double post OmniWeb!]

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: khrome ]

[Nimisys]

Originally posted by matttichenor:
<STRONG>Nimisys,


That NEC machine definitely is cheap, although adding items like Microsoft Office 2001 to the Mac only inflates its price. Office is a much better product than the 'Multimedia software pack' that comes with the NEC machine. But nevertheless it still beats the Mac handily at that price. Now didn't I hear that NEC has been known to use refurbished parts in their machines.

</STRONG>

heh that reaction (about Office) was just about the opposite of what i was excpecting... i added office so the mac would come closer in spec with the PC... the Multimedia pack was a standard feature not an option on the PC. i was going to add harmon-kardon speakers to the MAc as well, but i decided not to as the pro-speaker would have to suffice against the NEC's LapTec's speakers... As for NEC using referb parts i haven't heard of it... but it might be a possibility, as it is with any company. their monitors tho are quite nice.

In regards to your first point, that I "completely missed the context of"

What digital video software did you plan to use in your customized setup? Adobe Premiere? Avid? Final Cut Pro? My point was that for proffesional applications you'd better be prepeared to deal with companies who know the software and the Hardware inside and out. You might be able to save money and have a completely personalized, customized network, but if even one of your choices is a problem with the other hardware or software, you're screwed. Furthermore, these computers not only have to deal with eachother and the software, they also have to deal with 3rd Party DV equipment and not only Firewire equipment. Beta SP Decks, DAT Machines, new HD Machines etc. Read any Dv or Digital Editing Magazine and you'll see that the choice of DV pros are turnkey systems that are configured, tested and proven to work, not only on their own but also in large networks of similar machines that need to share media. Choices like Avid become obvious and possibly in the next couple of years, if it continues on its current path, Apple could implement large networks of systems specifically designed for certain applications, especially DV, taking a cue from companies like IBM and SUN.
My point is that for these types of applications you're dreaming if you think that you are going to be able to design a network of computers that can handle this kind of workload without problems. Admittedy, there probably are system designers who could implement something on this scale, but if they could they would probably use Apple systems or Avid systems, and they would charge more than if you did it yourself. So how are you ahead at this point? You've hired yourself a consultant who's going to say the same thing, buy Apple, buy Avid.

you right there are trade-offs to consultant approach BUT it is something that can't be dismissed out of hand. as for DV, just like with graphics, Apple is a force to contend with... they are also the only one of the MAJOR OEMS truly aiming at this market segment.

[xmoger]

Here's another comparison, a workstation:

Alienware MJ12
dual athlon mp 1.2Ghz
512MB DDR(2100)
dual 36GB 10k ultra160 scsi
on-board dual channel ultra160 scsi ctlr
geforce3 64MB tv-out
soundblaster live
HP 12x8x40 cdrw
3.5" floppy
on-board dual 3com 10/100 ethernet
intel gigabit ethernet
107 keyboard(matching color)
intellimouse explorer(matching color)
antec 1080 full-tower (460W ps)(matching color)
4 USB(2internal)
0 firewire
1 parallel
1 serial
2 ps/2
win2k
3-year warranty
$3932

apple
dual 800Mhz G4
512MB pc133
dual 36GB 10k ultra160
dual channel ultra160 scsi ctlr card
geforce3 64MB
8x8x32 cdrw
on-board 10/100/1000 ethernet
apple pro keyboard
apple pro mouse
2 USB
2 firewire
OSX
3-year applecare
$5069

things to note:
Gf3 included because there were no other comparable components offered by both that would be more suiting to a workstation. Although the athlon has tv-out.
Dual channel pci 64/32bit pci on the athlon board
No firewire OOB for the athlon, but no floppy OOB for the g4
3GB max memory and 1.5GB max for the athlon and g4
more ethernet ports on the athlon
more drive bays on the athlon
lower power consumption on g4's
both systems induce drooling