[Dan Szwarc]

OK, Apple's been flying at 733MHz+ for weeks now, and 500MHz+ machines were available months ago.

When are the faster upgrades gonna come out?

What's the holdup?

[Millennium]

Supposedly, there is some kind of technical issue that makes 500+-MHz chips unsuitable for use in upgrades. I'm not sure exactly why this is, though. And it could just be a bunch of marketing BS anyway.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Ouch. If it's true that 7450 G4s cannot be used as CPU upgrades, then this really sucks. I bought a PMG4 400 agp model with the intent of upgrading the CPU after the PPC broke 1 GHz.

I can understand how it would be difficult to cool the 7450 in a case designed for the 7400. Perhaps there are technical problems with powering the 7450 as well?

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

Hehe, if it's true that the upgrade companies will never get beyond 500 MHz, then I bet they all go under real soon.

[Matsu]

Haven't a few gone under already? The writing may be on the wall for upgrade makers. Apple has made upgrading CPU's very difficult to impossible for three out of four lines now. Used to be that all the line were upgradeable (socketed or card based CPU's) The iBook has been soldered since the beginning, but the iMac, Cube, and PowerBook have followed suit.

The upgrade makers have a seriously shrinking potential market: I think that a few of them will decide it just isn't worth it any more.

For the record, Cubes use the Sawtooth type CPU module and are upgradable in principle.
In practice? Who knows - nothing for Sawtooth, etc. yet. It's irritating.

What's similarly irritating is the lack of ADC-compatible aftermarket video cards. What does Apple want us to do - buy a new computer just to get a new video card? Or do they just not care about those of us loyal folks who have actually bought something already and want an upgraded card? Do they want us to switch to non-ADC monitors? It's ludicrous.

-Ph.D.

[Nebrie]

Originally posted by <Ph.D.>:
<STRONG>What's similarly irritating is the lack of ADC-compatible aftermarket video cards. What does Apple want us to do - buy a new computer just to get a new video card? Or do they just not care about those of us loyal folks who have actually bought something already and want an upgraded card? Do they want us to switch to non-ADC monitors? It's ludicrous.

-Ph.D.</STRONG>

Umm... there's quite a few you can buy, including one designed for PCs.

&gt;Umm... there's quite a few you can buy, including one designed for PCs.

Umm... like what, where? I don't see them, and I'm moderately well informed.

-Ph.D.

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

What does Apple want us to do - buy a new computer just to get a new video card?

Yes.

As for ADC video cards, that illustrates the reason why nobody should ever buy an Apple display. Those stupid ADC connectors limit consumer choice, and they are a pathetic attempt by Apple to sell more of their own displays.

Instead, all the ADC does is limit consumer choice for video cards, make it more difficult for a manufacturer to make a Mac compatible video card, and generally offend good sensible people. ADC is evil.

[Dan Szwarc]

So that's it? No details? I heard the same thing months back, that there was a "technical glitch" of some kind, but c'mon! Unless there is no way to get these 133MHz bus chips to work with the slower 100MHz busses, what could it really be?

When Apple was putting the ROM on the CPU module people thought that no upgrade could be made, but the upgrade companies figured they could copy out the ROM and burn it into a blank rom on their CPU module without violating Apple's rights.

Aren't the latest powermacs still using upgradeable processors on cards? Granted, they are not ZIFs, but they are still on a card that is connected by a connector of some kind.

And the ADC issue? Apple is STUPID for limiting it's display market to ADC macs only. They think it will force people to buy Apple monitors when some of those users may say, "To hell with Apple" and go Dell.

I don't ever expect to see another Powerbook or iBook to be upgradeable. There just isn't enough room.

[joe]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>As for ADC video cards, that illustrates the reason why nobody should ever buy an Apple display. Those stupid ADC connectors limit consumer choice, and they are a pathetic attempt by Apple to sell more of their own displays.</STRONG>

If Apple didn't include a VGA connector on their ADC graphics cards, you could make a very good case for limiting consumer choice. But the VGA port gives you maximum compatibility as to what displays you can use. Moreso than ADC or DVI. I'd prefer to have a DVI port in addition to the others. One of the most obvious reasons to not include a DVI connector is the lack of space at the edge of a graphics card. You simply can't fit VGA, ADC, and DVI ports in the limited space available on the card bracket. ADC is a new innovative, convenient way to reduce cable clutter and simplify hook up while improving display quality. I'd rather go with innovation (ADC) as long as the VGA port is also included.........joe

PS - my 22" Apple Cinema Display kicks ass

[Leonis]

I can't believe the Dual G4 upgrade from sonnet has been in the market for a year while the selling price stays the same

I sold my single 450 to get the DP 500 (with waarranty) and I paid only 2/3 the cost of that upgrade!

If I am thinking which upgrade vendor will go under first I would say PowerLogix, then Sonnet, then XLR8, then we won't be seeing any CPU upgrades

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Leonis ]

Prices only go down when something better comes out.

No faster chips; ergo, no price drops

[OverclockedHomoSapien]

One of the most obvious reasons to not include a DVI connector is the lack of space at the edge of a graphics card. You simply can't fit VGA, ADC, and DVI ports in the limited space available on the card bracket. ADC is a new innovative, convenient way to reduce cable clutter and simplify hook up while improving display quality. I'd rather go with innovation (ADC) as long as the VGA port is also included.........joe

The problem is that the ADC limits consumer choice. If someone buys a Mac display, then they are locked into buying ADC video cards for the life of that display.

If a video card company wants to sell a card in the Mac market, they are faced with either spending more money on R&D to incorporate an ADC connector, or limiting their consumer base by not using ADC.

And like you said, the space on a video card is scarce. Why waste it on both VGA and ADC when both serve the same purpose. For example, my retail radeon has no ADC, but in it's place there's an S-video out port. Wouldn't you rather have added functionality, rather than some Apple marketing ploy?

Who ever complained about the power cord on a display in the first place? Nobody. You can search these fora and other like them, and prior to the introduction of the ADC, you will not find a single post with someone complaining about their monitor's power cord. You plug it in and forget about it, end of story. There is no desk clutter because it's behind yoru desk and out of the way.

So, is Apple FORCING people to use their ADC displays? No. But they are coercing people into buying Apple displays. And they are doing so at the expense of video card variety and choice, and at the expense of other features that the ADC precludes.

Finally, the ADC can only be used on low-power displays. LCDs work, or smallish CRTs (not a 21" CRT). So again, Apple has shot themselves in the foot, by providing only botique-style displays that rich people can afford. My bet is that Apple monitor sales have plummeted lately, if they ever were very good. It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend an extra 200-500 bucks just to have their display's outer casing match that of their computer's.

[Metzen]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>Finally, the ADC can only be used on low-power displays. LCDs work, or smallish CRTs (not a 21" CRT). So again, Apple has shot themselves in the foot, by providing only botique-style displays that rich people can afford. My bet is that Apple monitor sales have plummeted lately, if they ever were very good. It never ceases to amaze me that people will spend an extra 200-500 bucks just to have their display's outer casing match that of their computer's.</STRONG>

Show me a 21in monitor with DVI. Once you fail to do that, realize that there is a VGA port on the Mac's graphic cards to power those type of power hungry monitors.

[joe]

Originally posted by OverclockedHomoSapien:
<STRONG>The problem is that the ADC limits consumer choice. If someone buys a Mac display, then they are locked into buying ADC video cards for the life of that display. </STRONG>

If you buy a DVI display, you get the same problem. So buy a VGA display and use whatever card you want - including the ADC and DVI cards.

<STRONG>If a video card company wants to sell a card in the Mac market, they are faced with either spending more money on R&D to incorporate an ADC connector, or limiting their consumer base by not using ADC.</STRONG>

Then use VGA. There are considerably more VGA monitors and graphics cards than either DVI or ADC. And Apple gives you a VGA port as standard!

<STRONG>Who ever complained about the power cord on a display in the first place? Nobody. You can search these fora and other like them, and prior to the introduction of the ADC, you will not find a single post with</STRONG>

Personally, I like the reduced cable count. I never complainted because I didn't think anyone would come up with a new and innovative way to get rid of the damn rats nest of wires and wall wart supplies under my desk. And for the record, with my Cube the ADC cable takes the place of 5 others on my previous computers: VGA, monitor power, speaker power AND butt ugly wall wart supply, audio, and USB. That's 1 cable for 5. What a great idea! Apple found a better way. And damn it, they should be commended for it! Yet Apple still includes a VGA connector for folks who simply don't want ADC. Either way you're covered.

<STRONG>So, is Apple FORCING people to use their ADC displays? No. But they are coercing people into buying Apple displays. And they are doing so at the expense of video card variety and choice, and at the expense of other features that the ADC precludes.</STRONG>

Macs never had the same choice of video cards as PCs. I don't see how ADC makes that any better or worse. Especially with a standard 15" VGA port included. So there is no way that Apple is coercing you into buying their displays. If anything, by including the VGA connector Apple is giving up potential monitor sales. Maybe if the cards were ADC only, I'd agree with you. But that VGA connector means you can use 99.999% of the available monitors. You don't have to buy ADC displays or graphics cards.

<STRONG>Finally, the ADC can only be used on low-power displays. LCDs work, or smallish CRTs (not a 21" CRT). </STRONG>

I don't consider my 17" Apple CRT (ADC) smallish. But again, there's a VGA port included to give you maximum flexibility. You want a 21" CRT? Then use the VGA port.............joe

Since I started the video card diversion, I'll chime in again.

I have no problem with ADC connectors - it's great to have everything
integrated into one cord. My problem is that I have a Rage pro and I can't
get a Radeon or GF2 upgrade with ADC. O.k., so you can get a GF3, for
$600, and it requires 4x AGP, which my computer doesn't have, but
that's it! Nothing else from Apple, and nothing at all from any third
party card maker. It's quite possibly an example of deliberate
arrogance on Apples part. An nice innovation like ADC should not be
used to strangle existing - and by implication - future customers.

Ph.D.

[Ron Goodman]

The Sonnet Encore Duet is down to $700. Has anyone used one? I have a G4 400 Gigabyte Ethernet, loaded with RAM which I can't use with a newer machine, and this update seems like a good thing. I'd like to wait for the price to drop some more, but if I wait too long and they quit making it, I'll be SOL. Any thoughts?

[sodamnregistered]

Originally posted by Ron Goodman:
<STRONG>The Sonnet Encore Duet is down to $700. Has anyone used one? I have a G4 400 Gigabyte Ethernet, loaded with RAM which I can't use with a newer machine, and this update seems like a good thing. I'd like to wait for the price to drop some more, but if I wait too long and they quit making it, I'll be SOL. Any thoughts?</STRONG>

Sell your 400 and buy a used dual 500 or dual 533. Ram is so cheap now it's not really a factor.

The dual for OSX is a for real deal. I watch my cpu a lot and they both see some action.

[Leonis]

Originally posted by sodamnregistered:
<STRONG>

Sell your 400 and buy a used dual 500 or dual 533. Ram is so cheap now it's not really a factor.

The dual for OSX is a for real deal. I watch my cpu a lot and they both see some action.</STRONG>

In my case...this happened three months ago......

Sold my 10 months old Single G4 450 for 1700 CDN. Bought a 6 months old Dual 500 (DVD-ROM drive only) for 2300 CDN. All my RAM and HD were carried over to the "new" one.

So I paid $600 CDN for a tower upgrade!

IF I went to the upgrade path at that time I wouild have to pay $1400 CDN just for the CPU upgrade!

[BahnStormer]

Originally posted by &lt;Ph.D.&gt;:
<STRONG>Since I started the video card diversion, I'll chime in again.

I have no problem with ADC connectors - it's great to have everything
integrated into one cord. My problem is that I have a Rage pro and I can't
get a Radeon or GF2 upgrade with ADC. O.k., so you can get a GF3, for
$600, and it requires 4x AGP, which my computer doesn't have, but
that's it! Nothing else from Apple, and nothing at all from any third
party card maker. It's quite possibly an example of deliberate
arrogance on Apples part. An nice innovation like ADC should not be
used to strangle existing - and by implication - future customers.

Ph.D.</STRONG>

So what's wrong with
Dr. Bott's DVIator? Using a graphics card with DVI, you can connect to an ADC monitor.

Okay, it costs $150 above the DVI card, but there's a solution (with more money, there's almost always a solution).

If you want to go from ADC to DVI, then that's another $40.

It's not free, but it's a solution.

~e

[Graymalkin]

Upgrade manufacturers have a hard time getting volume numbers of chips to make an upgrade card out of. Besides that they have to produce different upgrade solutions for each generation of Macs. Look through a MacMall catalog and count the number of systems Sonnet and others make upgrade kits for. The number is staggering considering how few processors they've got in stock at any given time to go around. The G4 processors from 350 to 500MHz were all the 7400 model and were around for quite a while (which means there was a large production run of them) so it is easy to imagine companies besides Apple having a source for them. On the technical side of things the 7400 was never clocked in production above 500 MHz so upgrade manufacturers releasing 7400s at speeds any higher than 500MHz have them overclocked which can at times lead to iffy performance and reliability. Some chips overclock much better than others do, PPC chips are low voltage to begin with so electrically they might be viable for overclocking but they only had a five stage pipeline so increases in the bus multiplier would have to be coupled with increases in the cache size. As the size of the cache increases so does its expense especially if you're clocking the cache with the rest of the core. A slower cache (with a divisor of 2 or more) is cheaper but you take a performance hit which starts making the whole overclocking process moot. Also, the prime market for the upgrade folks are people with Beige or B&W G3 systems looking for a little boost. These people will have either a 66 or 100 MHz memory bus which the 7400 is able to handle and later models (7440 and 7450) won't because they're designed specifically for a 133MHz bus. The only group of people that upgrader manufacturers could really sell 7440 and 7450 upgrade kits to would be owners of the Digital Audio line of PowerMacs. Specifically the 466 and 533 owners which there's probably not very many of compared to the total market for upgrades. They have a hard time justifying upgrades anyhow unless the upgrade was dirt cheap, they can get a brand new 733 Quicksilver for nearly the price of a signifigant upgrade to their systems.

As for the ADC issue Ph.D brought up, ADC is for the most part just a DVI connector with wiring to carry a USB signal. You used to be able to find DVI versions of both the 15" Studio display (LCD) as well as the 22" Cinema display and I imagine if you dig around the Apple store or a reseller you can still find them if you're so inclined to use a DVI equipped video card. I for one like the concept of the ADC connector because for me every wire I don't have in the butt of my box the better. ADC I think stems from the design of the Cube which was quick to offer an ADC port on its video card. A Cube only "needs" two wires plugged into it, the power adapter and an ADC plug. All interface I/O can be handled by the ADC connection (USB both input and output as well as video and don't forget sound on USB speakers). With a powered ADC bridge you could have your Cube in an entirely different room and just have a monitor, keyboard, and mouse on your desk. Sort of like an X terminal without using X. There's very aparent things ADC lacks, both of which are economical rather than technical. There's a very small number of ADC equipped video cards as well as a small number of ADC capable monitors. A couple of you were right about Apple product lockdown but you missed the bullseye. Apple has made all of their flat panels ADC now (also I assume DVI for special orders), this is to keep you from buying an Apple monitor for use on a non-Apple system. They don't make nearly as much money off sales of LCD monitors as they do off the sales of PowerMac towers. Apple would rather you buy a PowerMac tower and a third party monitor than an Apple monitor and third party computer. Hence the inclusion of a VGA port on ADC video cards. You can get ADC monitors from people like Formac which Apple is okay with because they know you're getting a third party ADC monitor for your PowerMac you bought from Apple.

[Big Mac]

Concerning processor upgrades, I don't have a good explanation for why they haven't gotten faster. All of the reasons provided in this thread are plausible, though. And, of course, it is a certainty that the upgrade companies will go out of business or exit that particular market segment if they can't offer faster upgrades for the newer machines. It would be unfortunate if the companies were to go down, especially if Apple is intentionally making them jump through hoops, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. In the short term, our choices would be more limited, but it's likely new firms would appear in the future if Apple were to again be more flexible in its motherboard designs.

On the subject of video cards, while I've been quite concerned about the Mac video card industry, the ADC issue is only a small concern. As others have pointed out, Apple includes a VGA port so that monitor choices are still pretty open. However, if you buy an ADC monitor, you're much more locked into the purchase, and there's no guarantee that Apple will continue to support ADC in the future. Apple could definitely take steps to improve the market conditions for ADC, by licensing the technology out so that ADC becomes the standard for digital displays, rather than DVI.

Yet, Apple may have reasons for not wanting to do so - if they want to own the market, as another poster stated. If they wish to be the only ones supplying ADC solutions, then they will limit the appeal of the technology. Apple learned with QuickTime, Darwin and its push for industry standard hardware components that it really makes sense to be open with the rest of the market.

One shouldn't look at ADC as a marketing ploy. It is a digital interface - VGA isn't - and anyone who has compared the quality of VGA based LCDs to Apple's LCDs should understand how important the digital interface is. Others have also pointed out that the cord saving design of the ADC is a tremendous ease of use and clutter saving feature. ADC is DVI + USB, sound and power, and I hope Apple expands the worthwhile technology so that it can propagate throughout computing.

[legacyb4]

You guys are pretty lucky to be landing used DP 500/533 machines for so cheap out in the U.S.! Out here in Tokyo, used DP machines reguarly hit over $1,500-1,800 on the auctions scene and the used stores aren't much better.

Having said that, I managed to land a used (2 month old) Sonnet Encore DP 500 for about $500 which I'm waiting for delivery on this week. In the meantime, I've been using a loaner card provided by one of the merchants out here (have you ever had a try before you buy on a CPU upgrade???) and I can say that compared to a stock G4/400 AGP machine, the upgrade is a dream!

OS X (which I live in most of the time) feels like I imagine it should. You can run multiple tasks without really noticing a slowdown (I would have to say that multi-tasking is really better suited for multiple processors!) in most of Apple's native OS X apps. Nothing really too hard core as far as benchmarking goes, but Classic is now launching at roughly half the time it used to take (0:35 vs 1:20), iTunes rips at consistently better speeds (7-8x vs 2-3x), and best of all, iMovie is actually usable when working with the various transitions, text overlays, and filters.

Perhaps those lucky enough to live in the +700 mhz already enjoy all the benefits mentioned above, but for us early G4 owners, this is definitely worth considering (especially since I was able to land my G4 for the lowly sum of $300 through a friend).

Cheers.

Originally posted by Ron Goodman:
<STRONG>The Sonnet Encore Duet is down to $700. Has anyone used one? I have a G4 400 Gigabyte Ethernet, loaded with RAM which I can't use with a newer machine, and this update seems like a good thing. I'd like to wait for the price to drop some more, but if I wait too long and they quit making it, I'll be SOL. Any thoughts?</STRONG>

[Ron Goodman]

I installed the DP upgrade a couple of weeks back and my score with the Altivec Fractal benchmark went from 1.3 to 3.2 Gflops. It would have been a 10 minute install, but I didn't seat the card properly the first time and had to do it again. I've been quite pleased, and it was much less hassle than trying to sell my machine and buy a different one. I'm set at least until the G5s come out.

[ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: Ron Goodman ]

[slipjack]

Upgrades stuck at 500 Mhz is pitiful. I've had my supermac @ 500Mhz for over 2 years now. Lame lame lame. I feel really sorry for the upgrade manufacturers because the demand has to be there.