[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by sniffer:
For all its worth, I love my PB and it will last me several years without problems, but the top ends Apple needs to at least be on pair with the best out there performance wise. Being a top of the line and only decent performer doesn't cut it. I'll give drmcnutt that. But I don't share his view on the PB rev. C being kinda "absolute"; its an excellent OS X performer and a trustworthy work horse despite a CPU ground with bad karma. And getting a 970 in there is not a guarantied Holly Grail, but it will be a step in the right direction. Sorry for my zealotry.

I'm glad you like it and I'm sure I would too, despite my posts here. I will wait though until closer to January anyway to see if any new developments happen. Thanks for your posts, a forum is precisely that, a discussion of ideas.

DRM

[sniffer]

Looks like you can't write off a G4 as an alternative in the next revision just yet afterall.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08...ores_detailed/

[MrMiyagi]

Yeah, but that's not now It's in the 2nd half of 2005!!

I think I'm going to wait 'till Macworld Paris on the 31st, and then decide to go powerbook or PC laptop. I wonder if they'll be announcing anything cool then.

Originally posted by sniffer:
Looks like you can't write off a G4 as an alternative in the next revision just yet afterall.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08...ores_detailed/

[sniffer]

Originally posted by MrMiyagi:
Yeah, but that's not now It's in the 2nd half of 2005!!

We'll know more in october. I think this is good news. But what will be the final decision from Apple depends a lot on who's the first to get the chip ready for production, and second, the ideal long term pat. Also the AIM (Moto/Freescale+IBM+Apple) alliance is very important for Apples survival.

Both companies will use Microprocessor Forum (MPF), to be held in San Jose this October, to launch their chips.

[iREZ]

France is going to be all about the iMac, and maybe they introduce a new iSight. I don't see a new notebook till October. If your holding your breath till france to make your decision, go ahead and wait, but you'll see that nothing along the line of notebooks will be released or updated.

[sniffer]

Agree. Realistically we should expect something in the beginning of next year on the portable side, december earliest for all we know. That's what making the mentioned Register article and the october presenting of new Motorola technology very relevant in this regard.

[hldan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by drmcnutt:
Well I'm glad the unwrapping experience is wonderful, but then you have to use it. I'm just wishing the refrain "Windows sux" wasn't the most important reason to use the PB as hidan would have it or that it's just "really cool" as you do. As I said earlier I'll wait for the next revision to hopefully include better graphics (WXGA?), better speakers, perhaps better battery management too.

DRM [/QUOTE
I would honestly appreciate it if someone quotes me to at least state what I really say? I never once said " Windows Sux". Read everything I write please B 4 accusing me of saying things I never say.

[drmcnutt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hldan:

Originally posted by drmcnutt:
Well I'm glad the unwrapping experience is wonderful, but then you have to use it. I'm just wishing the refrain "Windows sux" wasn't the most important reason to use the PB as hidan would have it or that it's just "really cool" as you do. As I said earlier I'll wait for the next revision to hopefully include better graphics (WXGA?), better speakers, perhaps better battery management too.

DRM [/QUOTE
I would honestly appreciate it if someone quotes me to at least state what I really say? I never once said " Windows Sux". Read everything I write please B 4 accusing me of saying things I never say.

I'm sorry if the quotes were misleading, I was characterizing your posts throughout this thread. In the end when features are better on the PC side of the pond the good ole "Windows SUX" argument is made. Processor not as fast, well Windows SUX, Paint wears off, well Windows SUX,,,it's a kneejerk reaction that's so tired. No offense.

Here are the posts you made that to me sounds like you don't care for Windows (which is your right).

PC companies know that they don't have much to fight for because the Windows operatiing system has been targeted so much by hackers and out of the box customers are forced to spend a good deal of money on internet security software and yada yada yada.
The Windows experience hasn't really changed much over the years. If you are an experienced Windows user it's very obvious that XP has a face change for the better and some plug and play enhancements but it's still the same ole difficult and frustrating computing experience.
Computing should be elementary and it's not with Windows.
Simple stuff like dragging an unwanted file to the trash without thinking, The Mac OS will do it but Windows will give you an error message stating that you may damage other programs by removing this file!

Sometimes uninstalling doesn't completely remove the software. It gets frustrating with Windows. You really need to think about actually using the machine and not feature for feature.

One last thing, feature for feature the Apple comes out ahead even in the iBook.
The Powerbook's all metal casing, slot load drive, backlit keyboard, S-video, FW800, FW400 DVI out are not even available on the Sonys. Some of them are only on the docking station.
Speaking on computing experience again the iPod is another consideration. It easier to use it on the Macs.
Figure out what you are willing to tolerate but don't judge feature for feature alone in accordance to the price. Sony's aren't any cheaper.
It probably doesn't matter what we say, if you want a PC go buy one, it's no crime, it won't affect my computing experience.


-------

Then you get the machine home and Windows may drive you nuts trying to understand its way of thinking.
Then one tends to get frustrated that it's difficult to operate and too much maintainance in terms of security.
Then a friend of yours has a Mac and brags about the ease of use and then you try his Mac out and fall in love with OSX and begin to wonder why Windows XP isn't this easy then you wish you had a Mac. Then you get frustrated that you bought soley on features or specs and not the most important aspect which is the OS.

Now that's just a scenario but my point is shopping on feature for feature is so ignorance without considering the OS first and foremost. If you have already considered the OS then comparing features won't help. There are features on PC's I wish my Mac had but oh well and there are features on Macs that I cannot believe are not on PC's yet but oh well. The L2 cache size or bus speed should not be a reason to consider a PC over the Mac.

Also in regards to PC manufacturers touting features as sales points, well that's completely true. How often do you read a review of a PC and the review complements on how wonderful this PC is because it comes with easiest and most user friendly Windows OS? Not too often I'll bet.
But even the cheapest Dell machine will throw the Intel processor speed and the software bundled in your face to make you buy.


--------
It looks like you and some of the others in this forum who are touting how great the Centrino specs are against the Macs seem to have allowed the specs alone to blind you about the actual "Windows Experience".
All that Dothan speed can't overshadow the high maintanance Windows brings along with it.
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all anti-Windows but to be fair when comparing features with Powerbooks and PC notebooks you must also prove how much better Windows is over the Mac OS. All I have seen here is speed comparisons, where are the OS comparisons?

Now all things considered, if you can fairly say that Dothan PC notebooks are faster and the Windows OS is superior to the Mac OSX experience then your arguement that Apple needs to step up to the plate will make sense.



------------
I will agree with almost everything you say except the quote, "anyone fully computer literate is going to have no trouble with Windows". That's BS. I have been a Mac and Windows user for over 10 years and have a degree in computers and there are a lot of things about Windows that make the experienced user have a terrible experience. In the last 3 years there have been more viruses that are hard to prevent just because they are acquired just by surfing the internet. Spyware and other crappy things make even the experienced user irritated. Everyone wants an easy low maintanance experience with their computer. I can't imagine anyone that would prefer to spend more time consistantly maintaining the computer just keep it working.

Also keep in mind that most computer users are not all that "computer literate"

I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression, but I doubt I did, Don't bring software into a hardware shootout.

DRM

[hldan]

Originally posted by drmcnutt:
[B]I'm sorry if the quotes were misleading, I was characterizing your posts throughout this thread. In the end when features are better on the PC side of the pond the good ole "Windows SUX" argument is made. Processor not as fast, well Windows SUX, Paint wears off, well Windows SUX,,,it's a kneejerk reaction that's so tired. No offense.

Here are the posts you made that to me sounds like you don't care for Windows (which is your right).




I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression, but I doubt I did, Don't bring software into a hardware shootout.

DRM

You know sir, that's quite petty that you would take all my quotes and put them together as if I wrote it all at once giving the impression that I am a Windows hater. If I hate Windows then I will say it. If you put other people's post all together that complain about the Mac then they would look like a Mac hater.
No matter what, unless I specifically write something don't misquote me.
The whole situation about the original post was about why the Bus Speed is slow on G4's and PC's seem to have better specs so I was participating in helping the poster understand that it doensn't make his Mac inferior based on specs.

One last thing, it's true, the PC industry has had several issues when it comes to the Windows operating system including the SP2. I don't just make things up to show hate for the system. I use both Mac and Windows on a daily basis but this forum is basically for Mac Users and their experiences so you have to expect people to be more biased towards the Macintosh.

[sniffer]

Just a side input. Found this interesting "Tech Overview" at http://www.apple.com/powerbook/specs.html
Take a look at the Adobe Photoshop and BLAST (Basic Local Alignment Search Tool) performance charts. Looks pretty impressive to me.
It's probably all extremely Velocity Engine specific tasks so I guess that's what making the advance. Apple would never publish something that would be in disfavor for their products. Interesting read thought.

[TheDrew]

Numbers are numbers.


Are you buying a system for usability? Or because it has the best numbers?


The x86 world has ALWAYS had higher numbers than mac systems.


Hell, bigger numbers dont always mean better performance. It has been shown that the prescott P4 cpus with 2mb L2 cache perform worse in 3d rendering/gaming apps than the northwoods with 512k L2.

Which leads to the next point, do you determine the usefulness of a system by how fast it can encode an mp3? Or the highest score in a 3d benchmark? When you look at performance scores, keep in mind they are relative. All of the hardware available these days is FAST. What is the difference between 350 FPS in a 3D app versus 300 when the human eye can only see ~60?


I use the video related stuff as an example, but it is not the only avenue where this is evident.


The powerbooks are extrememly robust and efficient systems. The multitude of quality programming and innovation in the Apple world far surpasses that of the x86/Windows world. There is more to the performance and longevity of a system these days than the raw numbers the hardware carries.


But the bottom line is it comes down to your needs. Do you need to have a higher quality system and experience, or do you need to have the fastest system available? I can say from experience that I need a higher quality system. I recently purchased my 12" pb and it has now replaced my x86 pc as my desktop solution, while still being my mobile solution. My desktop pc is a 3ghz P4 with a gb of matched cas 2 ddr, 800 mhz fsb, and a 128mb Radeon 9700 pro. Needless to say, I haven't touched the system in almost as long as I've owned this pb.

It simply does everything and more.


Edit: Quick note - Whats the point of separating hardware from software discussion? The two are equally dependent on the performance of the other. Can you travel on an engine by itself? Or do you need the car/transmission/suspension?

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by TheDrew:

Which leads to the next point, do you determine the usefulness of a system by how fast it can encode an mp3? Or the highest score in a 3d benchmark? When you look at performance scores, keep in mind they are relative. All of the hardware available these days is FAST. What is the difference between 350 FPS in a 3D app versus 300 when the human eye can only see ~60?

Whenever someone has said that in a discussion their argument has fallen flat. The human eye doesn't see in terms of FPS. We are not NTSC television sets.

Yes, numbers do matter. Try saying they don't matter to people who have to run large actions on Photoshop files or have to render and composite video and 3D animation. Every second counts. The more power one machine has the better. If a single machine is only a few seconds better then imagine how much better a render farm of those machines?

If you're using Office or just like to show off how cool minimizing a window with the Genie effect is to your friends then numbers don't matter.

[TheDrew]

You're right, the human eye doesn't see in terms of FPS, but it is true that the human eye cant tell differences in rates much beyond 60, let alone 300-350.


I never said that numbers didn't matter, I said numbers are numbers. If you MUST have the fastest machine possible, then buy a machine for its raw power. But are the pc counterparts really THAT much faster than Apple?


The original poster wasn't sure if he wanted a Mac or a PC which tells me that he doesn't have a specific software need (3d rendering/video editing/etc) otherwise he would be buying a platform for a specific software. Besides, if heavy video/animation/rendering is your venue, a laptop probably isn't your best option for those demands.


There is more to a computer purchase than just the raw hardware capability, especially when looking at mac versus pc. I am suggesting that the poster look beyond the number comparison when making a purchase if his needs are indeed similar to my own.

[sbc]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Agree. Realistically we should expect something in the beginning of next year on the portable side, december earliest for all we know. That's what making the mentioned Register article and the october presenting of new Motorola technology very relevant in this regard.

Errr....

I would really hope they could get something out pre-Christmas. I am not a guru on the technical side of processors but the dule-core G4 sounds promising and possibly more reaslitic than a G5-PB. I hope they can get WSXGA+ on the 17".

A combo of those two features would undoubtably make it the best DTR/17"er available, imho.

[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by hldan:
You know sir, that's quite petty that you would take all my quotes and put them together as if I wrote it all at once giving the impression that I am a Windows hater. If I hate Windows then I will say it. If you put other people's post all together that complain about the Mac then they would look like a Mac hater.
No matter what, unless I specifically write something don't misquote me.
The whole situation about the original post was about why the Bus Speed is slow on G4's and PC's seem to have better specs so I was participating in helping the poster understand that it doensn't make his Mac inferior based on specs.

One last thing, it's true, the PC industry has had several issues when it comes to the Windows operating system including the SP2. I don't just make things up to show hate for the system. I use both Mac and Windows on a daily basis but this forum is basically for Mac Users and their experiences so you have to expect people to be more biased towards the Macintosh.

Let's see where we're at, I apologized for the misleading quote, showed you the complete excerpts that formed the impression I had (which was basically everything you posted to do with Windows in this thread-was there anything objective or remotely positive about Windows? Not that I read, perhaps elsewhere in this forum) and as for being properly quoted I never called you a "Windows hater" ("don't care" doesn't equal hate). I did say your "compelling" argument is the popular knee-jerk "Windows is bad" argument that isn't compelling at all considering the saturation of the product, the wide user base and the similarity of today's OS's.

You sure did call me petty, I'm just trying to let you know where my impression came from. I use both platforms and do recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both and try to make points that are not colored with personal bias.

DRM

[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by TheDrew:


Edit: Quick note - Whats the point of separating hardware from software discussion? The two are equally dependent on the performance of the other. Can you travel on an engine by itself? Or do you need the car/transmission/suspension?

Well the forum is "Powerbook" as opposed to "OSX" another category altogether, the poster's question was regarding bus "hardware" performance. Basing your argument to buy a Powerbook on ignoring performance numbers and because Windows is inferior in some opinions isn't the best advice either.

DRM

[hldan]

Originally posted by drmcnutt:
Let's see where we're at, I apologized for the misleading quote, showed you the complete excerpts that formed the impression I had (which was basically everything you posted to do with Windows in this thread-was there anything objective or remotely positive about Windows? Not that I read, perhaps elsewhere in this forum) and as for being properly quoted I never called you a "Windows hater" ("don't care" doesn't equal hate). I did say your "compelling" argument is the popular knee-jerk "Windows is bad" argument that isn't compelling at all considering the saturation of the product, the wide user base and the similarity of today's OS's.

You sure did call me petty, I'm just trying to let you know where my impression came from. I use both platforms and do recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both and try to make points that are not colored with personal bias.

DRM

This will be my last post to you about this. I don't have to expain myself to you or anyone about how I feel about Windows. Nor do I need your approval. I was here helping someone else figure out the proper way to shop for a Mac.
For the record, you can't seem to remember anything you say. The only reason I have took time in a rebuttle with you is because you mentioned that I said "Windows Sux". Those were your exact words. You changed it in your last post.
I will no longer reply to you regardless what you say because I come on this forum to try and help others and to educate myself and if for some reason that I ever feel the need to bash Windows I don't think Bill Gates needs your help to fight his battles by sticking up for a platform that this forum is not really catered or biased to.
However here is a quote from you in regards to me:

"I'm sorry if the quotes were misleading, I was characterizing your posts throughout this thread. In the end when features are better on the PC side of the pond the good ole "Windows SUX" argument is made. Processor not as fast, well Windows SUX, Paint wears off, well Windows SUX,,,it's a kneejerk reaction that's so tired. No offense."

These were NEVER my words.
Please help someone else and not continue this thread. Hopefully Tooki locks it.
Your appology would have been more believable if you had never replied any further.
Peace out!

[drmcnutt]

Originally posted by hldan:
This will be my last post to you about this. I don't have to expain myself to you or anyone about how I feel about Windows. Nor do I need your approval. I was here helping someone else figure out the proper way to shop for a Mac.
For the record, you can't seem to remember anything you say. The only reason I have took time in a rebuttle with you is because you mentioned that I said "Windows Sux". Those were your exact words. You changed it in your last post.
I will no longer reply to you regardless what you say because I come on this forum to try and help others and to educate myself and if for some reason that I ever feel the need to bash Windows I don't think Bill Gates needs your help to fight his battles by sticking up for a platform that this forum is not really catered or biased to.
However here is a quote from you in regards to me:

"I'm sorry if the quotes were misleading, I was characterizing your posts throughout this thread. In the end when features are better on the PC side of the pond the good ole "Windows SUX" argument is made. Processor not as fast, well Windows SUX, Paint wears off, well Windows SUX,,,it's a kneejerk reaction that's so tired. No offense."

These were NEVER my words.
Please help someone else and not continue this thread. Hopefully Tooki locks it.
Your appology would have been more believable if you had never replied any further.
Peace out!

Peace indeed!

I was trying to help someone shop for a Mac as well and supported his homework before investing the money. Computers aren't like wearing a shirt you should really make the decision that will please you for the long term.

The words "Windows hater" came from your post, I didn't change my words only responded to your take on my post.

YOUR POST:
"You know sir, that's quite petty that you would take all my quotes and put them together as if I wrote it all at once giving the impression that I am a Windows hater."

I said my impression of your posts were "Windows SUX" not that you were a Windows hater (but that you disliked it and it's your right), that's your phrase (Windows hater) and not something I wrote. I also said I was using the term to generalize forum posts. Windows SUX is a generalization of a defense mechanism here when someone runs out of valid arguments regarding the platform differences usually hardware related. I thought I explained it properly, but apparently not because you are so maligned by my post. It was meant as a wide generalization not a direct characterization of your posts(although I did refer to your posts as an example of what I was referring to).

Either way it appears we are at the point of no return, if you are unwilling to accept my apology and explanation of my posts then this will serve as the last word.

DRM

[MrMiyagi]

Windows Sux! Macs Rul3z

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally posted by TheDrew:
You're right, the human eye doesn't see in terms of FPS, but it is true that the human eye cant tell differences in rates much beyond 60, let alone 300-350.

Which is rubbish. Anyone who has ran a game at 60FPS and then the same game much latter on much faster hardware at 200FPS will tell you they can tell the difference.

The original poster wasn't sure if he wanted a Mac or a PC which tells me that he doesn't have a specific software need (3d rendering/video editing/etc) otherwise he would be buying a platform for a specific software. Besides, if heavy video/animation/rendering is your venue, a laptop probably isn't your best option for those demands.

This is erroneous too. On the PC side laptops are almost as fast as desktops and can easily be used for Premiere and Avid video editing, Photoshop and also for animating in Softimage or Maya. On the Mac side laptops are much slower than the desktop Macs and a PC laptops. There's no doubt much more power is needed soon for people who want power computing on the go.

And right now on a 1Ghz Mac as I type the text is having trouble keeping up with my typing speed. That's no good either.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by RonnieoftheRose:
And right now on a 1Ghz Mac as I type the text is having trouble keeping up with my typing speed. That's no good either.

You know there is a textbox/gif bug in Safari, don't you?

[TheDrew]

Its actually not rubbish. Some people can see differences in upwards of 72-75 fps. There is no way that anyone can tell any difference between say 85 fps and 200 fps. Between 60 and 75, some people can, others cant. In most cases, your computer monitor cant display much beyond 85 or 100 frames anyways, depending on resolution. This CRT can display 100 frames/vsync hertz at 1024x768, and 85 at 1280x1024, and it is a high end viewsonic 19".


Screen realestate is the limitation when it comes to doing graphics/rendering work, not necessarily processing power when speaking in terms of laptop versus desktop.


The text issue is a software bug, my desktop pc (which runs Gentoo linux now) has slow updating text when entering text in textbox/forms in my webbrowser (using firefox), its a 3ghz system.

I dont experience the text issues on my pbook however with Safari.

But thats besides the point.


The proof is in the demand for these systems. If they are indeed so much worse (read slower) than their pc counterparts, why do people still buy them at higher prices? Is it true that power users cannot get work done at a competitive pace on a G4 laptop? Fastest? No, but in the end, is that the only determining factor of a system?