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subego  (op)
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Jun 13, 2016, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
It's the fact that you even bothered to go there at all......I think it's a car that checks few of your boxes.
How do I know whether it checks the boxes without asking? That's the point of the thread.

One of the boxes she would like to check is driving a mother****in bad-ass car. If I'm not mistaken, no one is arguing whether it checks that box.

This was almost entirely unrealistic with her original budget, but as I mentioned, it's creeped up significantly. Enough that an RX-8 is cheaper than what she's looking at.

She's also laser-focused on the Juke, and I'm sure we would agree this is a bad thing. She should have at least a couple options which excite her, otherwise there's little incentive for her to be critical.

Mea culpa. I was the one who noticed it on the street (sorry, Cap'n), and checked out the price. Am I living vicariously through her, maybe a little, but I can say the car excited the **** out of her. If the RX-8 was practical from a maintenance standpoint, even with the downsides, it would give the Juke some real competition.

I dunno. Seems reasonable to ask about without getting my shit completely jumped.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Jun 13, 2016, 12:15 PM
 
I keed with love
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andi*pandi
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Jun 13, 2016, 12:29 PM
 
Let her buy a Mazda3, or the Juke and move on with life. Or if that's too expensive Kia Soul. Just something. The suspense is killin me.

We need to see pix of her and you driving off the dealer lot in SOMETHING soon or else the internet will explodes.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 13, 2016, 12:36 PM
 
Well, I offered to go test the Juke this week, but she decided to go home.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Jun 13, 2016, 02:16 PM
 
Look, honestly, the Juke isn't a terrible choice if you're only looking for a sportier ride at a certain price range. It certainly has a fairly peppy ride compared to other vehicles in its class (and the AWD might be appreciated, although I think to a much lesser extent in Chicago).

It's just so ugly. You're basically trading a better engine and handling for less convenience everywhere else: it's really tiny inside, has barely any storage, and just looks a bit cheap in general. You're pretty tall, right? I'd be interested to hear what you think of it inside.....I found it fairly claustrophobic and I'm not a big guy - my head was literally against the roof in the back seat.

It's sort of like a modern-day Aztec doppelgänger - ugly, sporty and impractical, instead of ugly, practical and non-sporty.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 13, 2016, 06:23 PM
 
For whatever reason, she doesn't think it's ugly.

She's 5'4".
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 14, 2016, 07:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I keed with love
I honestly and truly believe the with love part, but am skeptical about the keed part. I feel pretty shit upon.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Jun 14, 2016, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
For whatever reason, she doesn't think it's ugly.

She's 5'4".
Yeah. What do you think, as a noted fan of aesthetics? I mean, didn't the Aztek also have very high customer satisfaction?

The only positive feedback I've heard on the Juke (from a visual standpoint) is "cute". I will leave your brilliant mind to work out the associated demographics, haha.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 14, 2016, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Yeah. What do you think, as a noted fan of aesthetics? I mean, didn't the Aztek also have very high customer satisfaction?

The only positive feedback I've heard on the Juke (from a visual standpoint) is "cute". I will leave your brilliant mind to work out the associated demographics, haha.
I'm in trouble if she reads this thread anyway, so I might as well keep digging.

She has crummy taste.
     
Laminar
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Jun 15, 2016, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The ones which jump out at me are these "sporty" cars from the aughts apparently no one makes any more.

Like, say, a Mazda RX-8.

Anything horrible about this specific car? I kinda think she may enjoy it more than a Juke.
No. No no no no no no no. An RX-8 makes a good second car for an enthusiast. They are garbage for reliability. They are garbage for daily driving (no torque). They are garbage for practicality (can't start it, then turn it off). They are wonderful for beating on through some twisty roads.

The engines burn oil by design and must be topped off every couple fuel fill ups. Even with perfect maintenance, the engines tear through ignition coils and eat their seals up, frequently failing before 100,000 miles. Like, you can expect them to fail. Find one with 150,000 on it and you can be 95% certain it's on its second or third engine. After so many engines failed early, Mazda replaced them with remanufactured engines that were even worse than the originals.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
it's like a having the performance and reliability of a Ford
What? Which modern Ford engine has a 95% chance of crapping out by 100,000 miles?
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 15, 2016, 10:16 AM
 
Ford, ranked 31 out of 32 in reliability.

America’s Most (and Least) Reliable Car Brands - 24/7 Wall St.

Wankels can be reliable, but few people follow the service schedule (replacing seals and coils is part of regular maintenance). As I said, they're comparatively very expensive to maintain.
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Laminar
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Jun 15, 2016, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Ford, ranked 31 out of 32 in reliability.

America’s Most (and Least) Reliable Car Brands - 24/7 Wall St.
That couldn't be less relevant.

Wankels can be reliable, but few people follow the service schedule (replacing seals and coils is part of regular maintenance). As I said, they're comparatively very expensive to maintain.
Nope.
     
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Jun 15, 2016, 11:42 AM
 
Because reliability reports aren't relevant? I was talking about overall reliability from the onset, Fords simply have different points of failure (but are fortunately cheap to repair). And yes, apex seals are supposed to be replaced at 100k miles, and they'll usually last that long, unless you let the engine oil run low, I already mentioned earlier that oil is a consumable for a Wankel, if you don't watch it religiously you'll get burned (and the vast majority of times, that's why they fail).

Again, I don't recommend RX-7s and 8s to "Joe Regular", they're comparatively too expensive to maintain and people don't have the discipline (or desire) to keep them up.
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Jun 15, 2016, 11:57 AM
 
I think perhaps sub should clarify the practicality component of this purchase. Given that this appears to be an "only car on a budget" situation, I really started off looking at what made the most practical sense, and then added whatever flair was available (not much, natch).

On the other hand, most of the questions being asked seem to be focused on the most unpractical options, haha. So maybe that really isn't much of a concern?

Personally, I think she should just sit tight and wait for a Honda Civic Si or Mazda 3 Sport or Volkswagen Golf GTI to hit her price range on the used market. They seem to be what she's actually looking for, and they're all solid options.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2016, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No. No no no no no no no. An RX-8 makes a good second car for an enthusiast. They are garbage for reliability. They are garbage for daily driving (no torque). They are garbage for practicality (can't start it, then turn it off). They are wonderful for beating on through some twisty roads.

The engines burn oil by design and must be topped off every couple fuel fill ups. Even with perfect maintenance, the engines tear through ignition coils and eat their seals up, frequently failing before 100,000 miles. Like, you can expect them to fail. Find one with 150,000 on it and you can be 95% certain it's on its second or third engine. After so many engines failed early, Mazda replaced them with remanufactured engines that were even worse than the originals.
I got the memo.

As a not-car person, I can usually only get a bead on the more "superficial" aspects of a car. With me and the RX-8, that's appearance, horsepower, and price. I should probably be looking at torque too, but I don't feel like I have a good frame of reference with which to translate the numbers.

I assume most of the people in this thread have more... rational relationships with their car. This is a bit more akin to a mid-life crisis situation... there's a superficial angle to it.

She's gotten herself excited about the Juke. Something like an RX-8 makes her excited. Like, there's a word people use as a vulgar description of how women react to cars. It makes her that. Get a towel.

Let's get into some brass tacks. She wants to drive home to central Illinois, and have the podunk people she went to high school with see her get out and be mad. She's petty like that.

Again, totally clear the RX-8 is the wrong choice. She couldn't deal with the maintenance, nor take the risk of the engine always dying. The other problems? She'd consider lumping it for payback in "**** yous".

(This may be half directed at Shortcut... I'm still licking my wounds a bit)

(Edit: speak of the devil )
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2016, 12:55 PM
 
And an added note the budget started so small, practical considerations were the only thing which needed apply. The budget creep may have changed that a bit.
     
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Jun 15, 2016, 02:03 PM
 
Haha....look, if impressing the Joneses is a large component - and for the record let me just say that this sounds like a terrible idea if you're unemployed - then the absolute best bet is likely a GTI: it's really nice, it's sporty yet practical, it's got FWD, and it's understated enough that only moderately knowledgeable people who see the name will go "oh, nice". It checks all boxes except maintenance/repair costs, but she may just have to commit to taking care of it with absolute regularity (and it's not like it's as guaranteed bad as the RX-8).

Another less-practical option could be the Subaru BR-Z/Toyota FR-S. It's a RWD coupe with tiny rear seats, but it is super fun to drive and the manual tranny is really good. It's basically like a more reliable RX-8 with less rear seat room. If she wants something that actually screams "My owner bought me only because I'm super fun to drive", then it's a solid bet.
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Jun 15, 2016, 03:25 PM
 
from left of field



or



sensible and mad at the same time (the Aero). Or Just sensible and still entertaining with lesser petrol or even diesel engines. Not too unreliable. Not specialist. FWD, seats 4 carries loads. Cheap to buy.

What's not to love?
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cjrivera
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Jun 15, 2016, 05:38 PM
 


Used 2013 Ford Focus STs are in the $16K range.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2016, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by cjrivera View Post


Used 2013 Ford Focus STs are in the $16K range.
If I were in her situation, this would be one of my top contenders. The "problem" is her sister-in-law, who she hates, uses to have one. It's a bad reason to disqualify it, but it is what it is.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2016, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
from left of field



or



sensible and mad at the same time (the Aero). Or Just sensible and still entertaining with lesser petrol or even diesel engines. Not too unreliable. Not specialist. FWD, seats 4 carries loads. Cheap to buy.

What's not to love?
A Saab would probably be the best suggestion for me personally, so of course I think it's a great suggestion.

There's an Aero for sale nearby, I'll see if I can convince her to look at it.
     
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Jun 15, 2016, 07:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Haha....look, if impressing the Joneses is a large component - and for the record let me just say that this sounds like a terrible idea if you're unemployed - then the absolute best bet is likely a GTI: it's really nice, it's sporty yet practical, it's got FWD, and it's understated enough that only moderately knowledgeable people who see the name will go "oh, nice". It checks all boxes except maintenance/repair costs, but she may just have to commit to taking care of it with absolute regularity (and it's not like it's as guaranteed bad as the RX-8).

Another less-practical option could be the Subaru BR-Z/Toyota FR-S. It's a RWD coupe with tiny rear seats, but it is super fun to drive and the manual tranny is really good. It's basically like a more reliable RX-8 with less rear seat room. If she wants something that actually screams "My owner bought me only because I'm super fun to drive", then it's a solid bet.
God dammit!

Those would be perfect, only her budget hasn't creeped that high.

I almost want one myself... though my practical side doesn't see the point unless I want to break the law all the time.
     
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Jun 15, 2016, 08:20 PM
 
What, the BR-Z?

Like the RX-8 they're a bit underpowered, but it really is a super fun car with superb handling (and there's something to be said about having just enough power to be fun and not enough to be dangerous, as any Miata MX-5 owner will happily tell you).

They're been out for about 5 years now so I'm actually a little surprised they're out of budget - I thought they were around 25k new? Maybe they have a hot used market?
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Jun 15, 2016, 08:48 PM
 
I should add that one of my best driving experiences ever has been in a BR-Z. Winding road along epic coastline in the east coast of Canada, gorgeous summer afternoon - carving around corners overlooking the ocean like the thing was on rails. You're never hear me say much of anything bad against that car, or the Miata - just two cars that seriously capture all the joy of driving, and almost none of the terror.

I drove a Boxster along the same road last year. It was also amazing of course, but you're just so much more conscious of not pushing too hard, knowing that you can easily get your ass handed to you if you're not focused and make a mistake. Still super awesome, but it doesn't quite capture the same feeling.
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Jun 16, 2016, 01:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
A Saab would probably be the best suggestion for me personally, so of course I think it's a great suggestion.

There's an Aero for sale nearby, I'll see if I can convince her to look at it.
I used to have a 9-5 aero wagon so I am biased. Ridiculous performance with huge space. The 9/3 is nearly as mad. It won't have any where near the Focus ST's handling or drivability but all Saab's are high on the individuality score. The insides are nicely grown up as well. The ignition key takes some getting used to though.

Volvo also make some nice semi sporting kit. A bit duller though.
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Jun 16, 2016, 02:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
What's not to love?
It's a dead company and parts here are already drying up.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
What, the BR-Z?
Yup. Cheapest one is $17K.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 10:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Volvo also make some nice semi sporting kit. A bit duller though.
Along the same lines as me liking Saabs, if I had to pick a car based on my identity, a Volvo probably fits best.

Which I guess makes me dull, so **** you.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 11:30 AM
 
Out of curiosity, what's the deal with not being able to turn off an RX-8 right after you turn it on?
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 11:59 AM
 
Also, in trying to help with some of the more rational suggestions, I'm going back over what's available in the Mazda3 s.

There is a decent selection as long as 100K+ miles is okay.

Obviously, any option would need to get looked over by a pro, but even with that, is buying a car with a 100K on it crazy? It seems crazy to me, but I don't know jack from shit.
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Out of curiosity, what's the deal with not being able to turn off an RX-8 right after you turn it on?
If you start the car, then turn if off before it's fully warmed up, it gets "flooded."

How do I restart a flooded RX8? - RotaryNews.com

An overview of why RX-8s suck as reliable non-enthusiast cars:
New and Potential Owners START HERE! - RX8Club.com

Short answer: If possible engine failure makes you that uncomfortable and/or paranoid, then this is not the car for you. You have to accept the issues or ownership will turn into a nightmare. It still could anyway, but your mindset going in is far more important than statistics. The more prepared you are, financially and mentally, the less of a problem any of this will actually be for you.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Obviously, any option would need to get looked over by a pro, but even with that, is buying a car with a 100K on it crazy? It seems crazy to me, but I don't know jack from shit.
Every car, no matter the age, make, or mileage will have stuff pop up. The older the car and the crappier the make, the more frequently stuff will pop up.

I like Edmunds TCO for this:

Used 2011 Mazda 3 s Sport: True Cost to Own | Edmunds

They provide an estimate of what you can expect to spend in maintenance and repairs per year. You can compare between cars to see what is likely to cost you less. Because this is a statistical average, you can fall on either side of the bell curve, spending more or less than that. The key is not to be swayed by a single owner living at the extreme end of the bell curve, touting reliability or complaining of failure (see: Focus).
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 01:30 PM
 
Excellent answer with the RX-8! Thank you!

Also, the TCO is very interesting. I wish the maintenance wasn't just broken down by cost. I compared a 2010 Mazda3 to a 2014 Juke. The Juke has a good $1,000 more in maintenance over five years.

For a two year old car versus a six year old one. Jesus.

Is that cost of parts or the shit wants to fall apart? Both?

It wouldn't actually cost that much with the Juke because a 2014 will still be under warranty, but still. That it's happening is notable.


Edit: that doesn't include repairs, so I guess it's just hella 'spensive.
( Last edited by subego; Jun 16, 2016 at 02:59 PM. )
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 01:45 PM
 
as for trusting cars > 100k miles... again I say, older subaru or volvo. land rover.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 01:47 PM
 
How old we talking?
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 02:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
as for trusting cars > 100k miles... again I say, older subaru or volvo. land rover.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 16, 2016, 02:46 PM
 
I was going to say, I bow to Laminar's expertise.

No doubt too old.
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
as for trusting cars > 100k miles... again I say, older subaru or volvo. land rover.
Land Rover? I wouldn't trust a 100k land or range rover to get me to the end of the street.

I have a ton of clients with these. They all daren't even breathe heavily when driving them in case they fall apart.




And I'm a fan. If you can call owning a series 2a lightweight the same thing.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 02:57 PM
 
I do wish the Edmunds TCO went earlier than 2010.
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I do wish the Edmunds TCO went earlier than 2010.
I think once you're over 5 years old, the previous owners and mileage make much more of a difference than make and model. I'd trust a gently used 50,000 mile 2009 VW with spotless dealer service records over an obviously abused, high-schooler owned, un-maintained, 140,000-mile 2009 Honda.
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
as for trusting cars > 100k miles... again I say, older subaru or volvo. land rover.
No, please no. Their TCO is pretty crazy for the avg person.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 03:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think once you're over 5 years old, the previous owners and mileage make much more of a difference than make and model. I'd trust a gently used 50,000 mile 2009 VW with spotless dealer service records over an obviously abused, high-schooler owned, un-maintained, 140,000-mile 2009 Honda.
How's about 12 year vintage.



IIRC, one owner who kept it up, 100K miles.
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 04:05 PM
 
I hear gremlins hold up well.

<seriously tho, one owner volvo maintained well? get it to your garage for an inspect. >
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2016, 05:03 PM
 
As long as you don't get a fill-up after midnight.
     
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Jun 16, 2016, 05:38 PM
 
Just get an Audi S3 and be done with it.
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Jun 16, 2016, 05:44 PM
 
oh dear. All this car talk, I seem to have got over excited.

Dropped 900 UK pounds on this on ebay



years MOT, 150K 120bhp turbo d. No rust. I'm the second owner from new 2007 car

Dumb seller. Rubbish photo's. Hadn't cleaned car since he bought it and he's a builder with a dog!!!

One valet later and it's probably worth £1600
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 16, 2016, 10:40 PM
 
That S40 would be a great college student car, auto or manual?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 17, 2016, 12:18 AM
 
Auto.
     
mattyb
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Jun 23, 2016, 10:39 AM
 
Electric car sets world acceleration record - BBC News

Now that is some SERIOUS acceleration!!
     
Laminar
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Jun 23, 2016, 12:14 PM
 
I see US car blogs reporting it as 0-60mph. Since it's 0-100kph, that's actually ~62mph, which is even more impressive.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 23, 2016, 12:38 PM
 
When will you SHEEPLE learn to stop trusting the MAINSTREAM MEDIA?
     
 
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