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Car Talk (Page 13)
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The Final Shortcut
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Mar 26, 2017, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Though I'd imagine it's a blast to drive, the NSX is one of those cars where the hood:ass ratio is a real turnoff.
In fairness, it does seem to be one of those cars that often photographs poorly. In person it is a very beautiful machine, especially when done up a little.

It is certainly an iconic shape.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 26, 2017, 06:14 PM
 
To me it looks like a Corvette, but with too much ass.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Mar 26, 2017, 11:01 PM
 
This is all subjective of course, but my experience has been that outside of the C1/C2 Vettes, they all tend to look nice enough in pictures and initially but the more you see them in person, the less beautiful they get. I can't quite put my finger on it but I really notice it.

The NSX has been the opposite for me. (The original, not the new model - which I haven't seen enough to comment on.) The more I see it the nicer I think it looks. I'll also say that many of the ones around have been modded and upgraded over the years and the car really seems to benefit from a few strategic updates. The one I was in had the pop up headlights replaced and a skirt package - kinda a little bit like this.



And boy is it fun to drive. Wow. I mentioned that I tried an S2000 a while back - would love to have the chance to drive them back-to-back! Very different cars but both so amazing when you feel them really open up....

[Edit - I see the headlights must have been a factory update by 2005. Must have meant replaced with LEDs or something like that.]
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 27, 2017, 01:50 AM
 
There are prettier cars than the old NSX, but very (very) few that handle better.
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subego  (op)
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Mar 27, 2017, 10:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
This is all subjective of course, but my experience has been that outside of the C1/C2 Vettes, they all tend to look nice enough in pictures and initially but the more you see them in person, the less beautiful they get. I can't quite put my finger on it but I really notice it.

The NSX has been the opposite for me. (The original, not the new model - which I haven't seen enough to comment on.) The more I see it the nicer I think it looks. I'll also say that many of the ones around have been modded and upgraded over the years and the car really seems to benefit from a few strategic updates. The one I was in had the pop up headlights replaced and a skirt package - kinda a little bit like this.



And boy is it fun to drive. Wow. I mentioned that I tried an S2000 a while back - would love to have the chance to drive them back-to-back! Very different cars but both so amazing when you feel them really open up....

[Edit - I see the headlights must have been a factory update by 2005. Must have meant replaced with LEDs or something like that.]
I know what you're saying about Vettes being photogenic.

I've only seen NSXs in pics, so I may change my mind if I saw one in real life, but I've never been a fan of how mid-engines look in general.

Now an S2000 has the right ratio, and I saw one in the fiberglass the same day I saw the Lambo.
     
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Mar 27, 2017, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There are prettier cars than the old NSX, but very (very) few that handle better.
I know of at least one.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...68#post8364368
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 14, 2017, 11:35 PM
 
So I drove Honda's new Civic Si and Type R last week.

Si is an absolutely great daily driver. The Type R looks like the wet car dream of a 14 year old kid, and holy shit does it make you actually feel the same way.
     
Brien
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Jun 15, 2017, 02:10 AM
 
I'd still rather have an RS, especially the '18 model with the upgrades. I've considered trading up (didn't someone here order one?).
( Last edited by Brien; Jun 15, 2017 at 02:24 AM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2017, 05:37 AM
 
Momentarily shifting to the other big Japanese manufacturer, God the new Corollers are like, Prius ugly.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 15, 2017, 02:21 PM
 
And those new Priuses are hideous!! I'm partial to classic lines but not averse to some fun outrageousness, but man those look ugly.
     
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Jun 15, 2017, 08:26 PM
 
To me, the brand new regular Civics are a bit overstyled to me. The Si models are a tad tunner-ish to me. The new Priuses are super ugly.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2017, 08:51 PM
 
I saw some sporty Subaru I liked today, but it didn't have any other identifying marks.

I still sorta want a Scion.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 15, 2017, 08:55 PM
 


Doesn't that look like fun?
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 16, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
That's the same Subaru/Toyota/Scion you've been talking about since I mentioned it a year ago, haha! Just buy it already!
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 16, 2017, 02:55 PM
 
They're super-fun, just don't buy an automatic.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2017, 06:58 PM
 
Unfortunately, don't drive a stick.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 16, 2017, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
That's the same Subaru/Toyota/Scion you've been talking about since I mentioned it a year ago, haha! Just buy it already!
Honestly, I would... the big hold-up is being afraid I wouldn't drive it enough.

And I do truly love the shit out of my van. Obviously though, it's a different kind of driving experience.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 17, 2017, 09:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Unfortunately, don't drive a stick.


Forget you ever saw it, then.

On that note, the Civic Si and Type R only come in manual. It must noticeably impact their sales, but kudos for taking a stance against the pansies.
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 19, 2017, 03:28 PM
 
I don't mind the stick-shaming, but is the automatic a bad car?
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 19, 2017, 03:45 PM
 
Don't let them call you a pansy, subego!

<cough>Even I drive stick... </cough>
     
subego  (op)
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Jun 19, 2017, 03:57 PM
 
I'm more of a petunia.
     
Laminar
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Jun 19, 2017, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post


Forget you ever saw it, then.

On that note, the Civic Si and Type R only come in manual. It must noticeably impact their sales, but kudos for taking a stance against the pansies.
Same with the Focus and Fiesta STs, and the GT350R.

I read (though I can't find the source, so pay no attention to this) that when VW added a dual-clutch option to the GTI, they didn't sell any fewer manual GTIs, they just sold way more total GTIs.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 19, 2017, 04:40 PM
 
That makes a lot of sense - especially if they're the only automatic choice in that small segment.

I actually drove the Golf R at the same event with the Type R. The difference is almost hilarious! Talk about different approaches to more or less the same vehicle...
     
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Jun 19, 2017, 07:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
That makes a lot of sense - especially if they're the only automatic choice in that small segment.

I actually drove the Golf R at the same event with the Type R. The difference is almost hilarious! Talk about different approaches to more or less the same vehicle...
The Golf R is a small GT, not a hot hatch. It's like a mini AWD Passat, only more nimble, definitely not competition for GTI or Type R customers.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I don't mind the stick-shaming, but is the automatic a bad car?
Yeah, the automatic pretty much kills the FR-S/BRZ, it's just gutless. Gabe, my nephew, really wanted paddles, for cool factor, but I took a stand after driving it. No lie, it felt 20-30hp weaker than the stick, the shifts in manual mode were slow, and while in auto mode they were impossible to predict and jerky. IMO, the auto was made an option completely as an afterthought. I made him learn how to drive a stick, just so he could drive that car properly, and now he's very proficient and loves it.

Anyway, my advice is to go with a manual and learn it, then drive it as often as possible, because eventually you'll wonder why you ever drove an auto.
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subego  (op)
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Jun 19, 2017, 08:56 PM
 
I'm going to guess nothing in that class is good in an automatic?
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 19, 2017, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The Golf R is a small GT, not a hot hatch. It's like a mini AWD Passat, only more nimble, definitely not competition for GTI or Type R customers.
Huh. Really? I'd always considered the R to be a better and faster GTI.

Yeah, the automatic pretty much kills the FR-S/BRZ, it's just gutless. Gabe, my nephew, really wanted paddles, for cool factor, but I took a stand after driving it. No lie, it felt 20-30hp weaker than the stick, the shifts in manual mode were slow, and while in auto mode they were impossible to predict and jerky. IMO, the auto was made an option completely as an afterthought. I made him learn how to drive a stick, just so he could drive that car properly, and now he's very proficient and loves it.

Anyway, my advice is to go with a manual and learn it, then drive it as often as possible, because eventually you'll wonder why you ever drove an auto.
Agreed, with the caveat that spend 30 minutes in dense city traffic, and you'll have no problem remembering why.
     
Brien
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Jun 20, 2017, 02:30 AM
 
Even in stop and go traffic I'd rather be shifting.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 20, 2017, 04:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Huh. Really? I'd always considered the R to be a better and faster GTI.
The Golf R is about 100-120kg heavier than the GTI (due to the AWD system and added amenities), it's like having an extra American (or 2 Europeans) riding in the passenger seat. Also, it has a 2" longer wheelbase, and that's substantial for such a small car, affecting its turn radius and road manners (great for trips, not as great around town).

Agreed, with the caveat that spend 30 minutes in dense city traffic, and you'll have no problem remembering why.
Would still rather row my own, and my knees are seriously screwed w/ arthritis. Many of the new auto boxes are pretty good, all that said (Tremec makes a few that are sublime), but the FR-S didn't get one of those, theirs' is kind of clunky. Compound that with just how awesome the manual tranny is in those, one of the best implementations in the world, regardless of price, and it's an easy choice. My only gripe with the car is that it needs another 40hp (and larger brakes to offset that). If it made 240-250, it would easily be the best RWD car under $50k.
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Laminar
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Jun 20, 2017, 09:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Many of the new auto boxes are pretty good, all that said (Tremec makes a few that are sublime),
Which ones are those? Which cars come with those fantastic Tremec automatic transmissions? Are you talking about the HDM stuff? Why would Tremec get the credit for that?
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 20, 2017, 10:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The Golf R is about 100-120kg heavier than the GTI (due to the AWD system and added amenities), it's like having an extra American (or 2 Europeans) riding in the passenger seat. Also, it has a 2" longer wheelbase, and that's substantial for such a small car, affecting its turn radius and road manners (great for trips, not as great around town).
I mean, yeah, the R is basically a re-made S3. It's just over 200 pounds heavier than the GTI, but I'm under the impression it's also faster in every way - straight line, track, top end, turns. At least until you get to crazy town with something like the GTI Clubsport, which really is a completely different car than either of them.

I'm still not sure why you'd put it in a different market than the GTI - I know three people with Type Rs and all three upgraded from the GTI or regular Golf - or say that it's not a hot hatch (and I mean, the "around town" difference in road manners is minimal between the two - they're both pretty compact cars).
     
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Jun 20, 2017, 05:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
I mean, yeah, the R is basically a re-made S3. It's just over 200 pounds heavier than the GTI, but I'm under the impression it's also faster in every way - straight line, track, top end, turns. At least until you get to crazy town with something like the GTI Clubsport, which really is a completely different car than either of them.

I'm still not sure why you'd put it in a different market than the GTI - I know three people with Type Rs and all three upgraded from the GTI or regular Golf - or say that it's not a hot hatch (and I mean, the "around town" difference in road manners is minimal between the two - they're both pretty compact cars).
It's AWD, and generally all "hot hatches" are FWD, also there's the longer wheelbase, as I mentioned earlier, which can impart the illusion that it's a bigger car than it truly is. Part of the fun of a hot hatch is that they're a little manic (or a LOT manic, like the 500 Abarth and Fiesta ST) near their limits, and the Golf R is pretty damned refined for what it is, it's tough to get them to step out of line. It's partly why I don't consider the Focus RS a hot hatch, either, like the Golf R it's a bit too polished to fall into the category. Like Chris Harris said, and I agree with, (paraphrasing) "there's something a bit shit and unpredictable about a hot hatch, but that's part of what makes them so fun".

I know this is a contentious topic, like defining what makes a car a supercar ("Is the 911 Turbo S a supercar?"), and I'm just giving an opinion on this.
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Jun 20, 2017, 06:07 PM
 
I would still consider the Golf R/RS/STi hot hatches, I don't think being FWD is a requirement IMO.
     
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Jun 21, 2017, 04:38 AM
 
The Mercedes AMG A45, the Ford Focus RS, the Audi S3 and Audi RS3 are all AWD, the 135i M comes in RWD only. I don't see FWD as a requirement.
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Jun 21, 2017, 05:15 AM
 
You guys don't have to, at all, I'm just using Harris' and Clarkson's view on the subject (the latter, I believe, coined the phrase back in the 80s), "hot hatches" are usually FWD. What makes a hot hatch so attractive is its price/performance, and FWD cars are cheapest.
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The Final Shortcut
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Jun 21, 2017, 09:15 AM
 
It's a very confusing and oddly pedantic position to take. The Golf R is a hatchback/5-door and is in pretty much every way hotter than the GTI - yet because it's AWD, two inches longer and has a nice leather interior it's not a hot hatch? I guess.
     
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Jun 21, 2017, 04:07 PM
 
Okay. *shrug* Car culture is oftentimes confusing. As for being pedantic, this is nothing. What amounts to a $5 piece of plastic can make one car >$100k more valuable than another (when they're otherwise identical).
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Jun 21, 2017, 04:21 PM
 
Sounds like you have a story there
     
Brien
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Jun 21, 2017, 06:28 PM
 
Probably referring to badges and limited edition/swan-song models I'd guess.
     
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Jun 21, 2017, 06:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
It's a very confusing and oddly pedantic position to take. The Golf R is a hatchback/5-door and is in pretty much every way hotter than the GTI - yet because it's AWD, two inches longer and has a nice leather interior it's not a hot hatch? I guess.
The GTI seats are ugly so I'd consider leather an imorovement. If ANYTHING makes the Golf R not a hot hatch it would be undefeatable traction control.
( Last edited by Brien; Jun 22, 2017 at 02:13 AM. Reason: subego!!! *shakes fist*)
     
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Jun 21, 2017, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
Probably referring to badges and limited edition/swan-song models I'd guess.
Two words: Shaker hood

There are other examples too, but it's all too absurd to worry about.
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Jun 22, 2017, 01:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
Gilf
Edit: decided to stay out of trouble.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Jun 25, 2017, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Okay. *shrug* Car culture is oftentimes confusing. As for being pedantic, this is nothing. What amounts to a $5 piece of plastic can make one car >$100k more valuable than another (when they're otherwise identical).
*Sigh...*

Once again we get to this point - where you make a dubious and really, almost patently incorrect claim, then someone questions it - politely, in this case - then you refuse to acknowledge making any mistake. I really wanted to avoid confrontation here - again - but instead of a gracefully bowing out, you have to double down on the route of casual superiority as though everyone else isn't quite knowledgeable enough to "get it."

The Golf R is universally acknowledged as a "hot hatch" by Top Gear, DriverMod, AutoGuide, Autoblog, Ars Technica, Auto Express, AutoCar, Road and Track, AutoTrends, Jalopnik, What Car, Drive Tribe, and... the Irish Examiner.

I mean, I could go on endlessly - literally every car publication that has ever reviewed the Golf R describes it using some variation of "hot hatch". This isn't "car culture". This is you, once again getting called on an absurdly dumb statement and doing that cat thing where you fall off a counter, indignantly arch your back, and stalk off in a huff as though no one saw anything.

Sigh. This rant will not change a thing - you'll of course vaguely refer to knowing something that everyone else on the planet does not. But to digress: I agree that the Golf R is just so "genteel." (At least until you take everyone off the line.) The Civic Type R in contrast feels a bit of a raving maniac - very much closer to the ideal.
     
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Jun 26, 2017, 05:33 AM
 
It's a car that's the shape of a "hot hatch" (omg, it's a hatchback), so it's convenient to simply use a trendy name that falls easily to hand, so a few journos got lazy (again) and did just that. If I had a dollar for every time some kooky writer decided to misuse "sports car", when deep down they knew it didn't meet the correct formula; small, 2-seater, that's RWD, and usually convertible...

Once again we get to this point - where you make a dubious and really, almost patently incorrect claim, then someone questions it - politely, in this case - then you refuse to acknowledge making any mistake. I really wanted to avoid confrontation here - again - but instead of a gracefully bowing out, you have to double down on the route of casual superiority as though everyone else isn't quite knowledgeable enough to "get it."
...
Sigh. This rant will not change a thing - you'll of course vaguely refer to knowing something that everyone else on the planet does not. But to digress: I agree that the Golf R is just so "genteel." (At least until you take everyone off the line.) The Civic Type R in contrast feels a bit of a raving maniac - very much closer to the ideal.
You feel better? Instead of trying to pick a fight, why don't you go do something productive? Maybe starting a knitting circle or join a book club? Geez, it's getting bad that I'm actually starting to worry about you folks.

While I have grown a teflon over asbestos shell over the years, I'm not your therapist, or your punching bag. If you have an issue in your life that's making you feel this depressed and angry and you need to take it out on someone, go find some real help instead. While it may give a little temporary relief to unload on some person online, it's not going to address what's actually wrong.
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sek929
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Jun 26, 2017, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
The Golf R is universally acknowledged as a "hot hatch" by Top Gear, DriverMod, AutoGuide, Autoblog, Ars Technica, Auto Express, AutoCar, Road and Track, AutoTrends, Jalopnik, What Car, Drive Tribe, and... the Irish Examiner.
We better let them know how wrong they are, I mean Shaddim is infallible so there's no way he could be mistaken.

Also I love your "cat falling" analogy, it fits quite well. Though now he's moved onto the "triple down" where he insinuates everyone else is an asshole except him. An amusing, if incredibly predictable, march down his own set of tropes.
     
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Jun 26, 2017, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's a car that's the shape of a "hot hatch" (omg, it's a hatchback), so it's convenient to simply use a trendy name that falls easily to hand, so a few journos got lazy (again) and did just that. If I had a dollar for every time some kooky writer decided to misuse "sports car", when deep down they knew it didn't meet the correct formula; small, 2-seater, that's RWD, and usually convertible...
Originally Posted by my post
Sigh. This rant will not change a thing - you'll of course vaguely refer to knowing something that everyone else on the planet does not.


You feel better? Instead of trying to pick a fight, why don't you go do something productive? Maybe starting a knitting circle or join a book club? Geez, it's getting bad that I'm actually starting to worry about you folks.

While I have grown a teflon over asbestos shell over the years, I'm not your therapist, or your punching bag. If you have an issue in your life that's making you feel this depressed and angry and you need to take it out on someone, go find some real help instead. While it may give a little temporary relief to unload on some person online, it's not going to address what's actually wrong.
Yeah, I mean....a compulsive need to pretend to be an internet authority on all sort of things that you don't really know much about is not really the problem here. The real problem is all those pathetic trolls pointing it out!
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 26, 2017, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Umm, no.

you'll of course vaguely refer to knowing something that everyone else on the planet does not.
So, when exactly did that happen? I merely said they're being lazy with a popular label, how is that "knowing something that no one else knows"?

Yeah, I mean....a compulsive need to pretend to be an internet authority on all sort of things that you don't really know much about is not really the problem here. The real problem is all those pathetic trolls pointing it out!
Again, invest in a punching bag or get a therapist, I'm not either of those things. Hell, at least you know you're being a troll, maybe it's time you did something about it?

Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
We better let them know how wrong they are, I mean Shaddim is infallible so there's no way he could be mistaken.

Also I love your "cat falling" analogy, it fits quite well. Though now he's moved onto the "triple down" where he insinuates everyone else is an asshole except him. An amusing, if incredibly predictable, march down his own set of tropes.
I guess you could, they would probably admit that it doesn't fit that pseudo-category in the first place, if you hold their feet to the fire.

As for everyone else being assholes, I know I can be an asshole. The problem is, you and a few others around here get off on pushing someone else around to make yourselves feel better, making you worse assholes than I'll ever be, because at least I have enough decency not to take out my moods on others. I guess I'll just live happy in the knowledge you'll never have enough wealth or influence to be anything more than basic forum bullies.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Brien
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Jun 26, 2017, 03:22 PM
 
I have literally never seen someone say a hot hatch has to be FWD and a sports car has to be RWD.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Jun 26, 2017, 03:36 PM
 
I have, but that's not even what I said. I said hot hatches are "generally" FWD and that was enough to start yet another round of personal attacks (some not even related to the thread at hand). Maybe they should take anger management classes? I'm not sure what can be done about them.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Jun 26, 2017, 03:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
I have literally never seen someone say a hot hatch has to be FWD and a sports car has to be RWD.
Clearly, you're not a monocle-wearing billionaire like the rest of us.
     
Doc HM
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Jun 26, 2017, 04:42 PM
 
So I went on a client visit.
This is me in his LeMans Jaguar D-Type



have managed to organise another (famous starship captain) client to drive it at this years Goodwood Festival of Speed, which promises to be a fun weekend.
There was a rather nice Alfa Romeo 8C as well.

Beats actually fixing Macs!
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
 
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