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You are here: MacNN Forums > Software - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Applications > skiTunes: Open source iTunes alternative

skiTunes: Open source iTunes alternative (Page 2)
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ryaxnb
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Apr 4, 2005, 02:52 AM
 
impossible
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Superchicken
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:38 PM
 
You're never gona get any users away from iTunes if all you do is create a carbon app that plays and encodes m4a files and makes a slightly more generic Cocoa app.

You should be adding in stuff like font and colour panels that would allow me to say, use a different font for different albums. As well, icons can play a HUGE part in how an App is received. You should at least be doing something similar to the back and forward widget in Safari for the play pause and fast forward buttons. And again, ripping off iTunes does not equal a way to get users.
     
Krypton  (op)
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Apr 4, 2005, 04:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Truepop:
looks cool but I would like to see an project that looks like the audion 4 idea.

http://www.panic.com/extras/audionst...p-audion4.html
I was going to post this also, although less sure about the drawer rather than a 3 pane view.

Personally I like Indigo's mock-up, although some less garish buttons would be welcome
     
Chuckit
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Apr 4, 2005, 05:10 PM
 
Originally posted by Superchicken:
You're never gona get any users away from iTunes if all you do is create a carbon app that plays and encodes m4a files and makes a slightly more generic Cocoa app.
Huh? What are you talking about? A Carbon app that makes a generic Cocoa app?

Originally posted by Superchicken:
You should be adding in stuff like font and colour panels that would allow me to say, use a different font for different albums.
If he's using Cocoa text fields (which would seem to go with his stated goal of using only native UI elements), that's all possible and may even be free, depending on how he stores things.
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Fotek2001
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Apr 5, 2005, 05:01 PM
 
I (sadly/reluctantly) predict that this project will fail for exactly the reason that Audion did - iTunes is too ubiquitous and Apple holds too many of the reins...

There are a lot of important lessons in the Audion story especially about iPod integration and the music store and this isn't only about the software being free...

http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/

     
lngtones
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Apr 6, 2005, 08:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Truepop:
looks cool but I would like to see an project that looks like the audion 4 idea.

http://www.panic.com/extras/audionst...p-audion4.html
That is iTunes with the parts moved around slightly.

Oh yeah, and the Carbon vs. Cocoa debate isn't about possibility. You can do anything you want with pure machine code if you felt like it. Rather, it's about the REALITY that it is simply more likely that a Cocoa app will have the features that you miss so much when you use a typical Carbon app simply because of the great frameworks that make Cocoa.

Cocoa == Foundation + AppKit + WebKit + Everything Else.

Objective-c is only one small part of what the term Cocoa stands for and that is REALITY.
( Last edited by lngtones; Apr 6, 2005 at 08:55 AM. )
     
solbo
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Apr 6, 2005, 09:14 AM
 
Originally posted by iindigo:
The top area is a toolbar, which allows you to arrange it however you like.
I think iTunes, and music jukebox apps in general, is one of those applications that does not benefit from a standard dragable toolbar and other standard interface conventions.

If you use iTunes then you realize the reason it is so great is because it has a standard, simple, well thought out look and functionality. The All-In-One design is perhaps the best interface I have seen for organizing and playing music. Even when other MP3 player were far more efficient (Audion, MacAmp) than iTunes, I still used it because of that functionality.

If you were going to design an interface that is better or comparable to iTunes then I would say great. But just plopping the controls in a customizable toolbar is a bad direction to go in my opinion.

As an iTunes clone you are off to the right start. Although if you remember what happened to the Linux iTunes clone project, Apple does not like this sort of thing at all.
     
kingskel
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Apr 6, 2005, 09:52 AM
 
Seems cool. Alternatives are good. One suggestion:

Be able to handle lots of files. I love iTunes, but I've got 40 gigs of music. So, when I edit a track's info, or select a track, iTunes gives me that crazy spinning wheel of timewaste. This doesn't happen with less tracks in a library, so I'm assuming the large number is the prob. A lot of people have large libraries, so this should be fixed. I would definitely try an alternative.
     
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Apr 6, 2005, 12:46 PM
 
looks promising, however, iTunes already has a headstart, a pretty big one, for example sharing Libraries over the network. Another thing, iTunes (amazingly) chews less CPU than skiTunes.
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CharlesS
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Apr 6, 2005, 02:54 PM
 
Originally posted by lngtones:
That is iTunes with the parts moved around slightly.

Oh yeah, and the Carbon vs. Cocoa debate isn't about possibility. You can do anything you want with pure machine code if you felt like it. Rather, it's about the REALITY that it is simply more likely that a Cocoa app will have the features that you miss so much when you use a typical Carbon app simply because of the great frameworks that make Cocoa.
This is true. It's also true that Carbon widgets sometimes don't behave in a consistent manner with Cocoa widgets (i.e. shortcuts and line ending behavior in text fields; window title bar proxy icons that pop their windows to the front when you initiate a drag on them in Carbon, but not in Cocoa; command-click-through not working with Carbon widgets, etc.). I expect that most of these problems will probably go away if/when Apple finally reworks things so that Cocoa is a framework on top of Carbon instead of them being separate and parallel like they are right now, although who knows how long it will take them to do this.

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iindigo
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Apr 10, 2005, 10:13 AM
 
Just thought I'd fill you guys in on the latest development.

The latest builds of skiTunes now have a new interface that's much less likely to provoke a negative response from Apple. Here's a screenshot:

[ALL inline images must be no wider than 480 pixels. --tooki]

It's not quite complete yet; mini mode hasn't been worked on, and a couple of the things in the main interface still need changing.

Version 0.4 is expected to be released this Friday.
( Last edited by tooki; Apr 11, 2005 at 11:40 AM. )
     
albook
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Apr 10, 2005, 10:56 AM
 
I think that looks great!
It sure will be great to have an audio player for Mac OS X that supports more audio codecs than iTunes (FLAC, MusePack, Ogg Vorbis, etc...)

Is AirTunes support possible as well?
     
King Bob On The Cob
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:47 PM
 
Originally posted by lngtones:
That is iTunes with the parts moved around slightly.
And this app is iTunes without the parts moved around slightly
Your point?
     
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Apr 10, 2005, 09:18 PM
 
is it just me or does the current build (0.3) crash as soon as you start the program? I can't even get it started. Hopefully, 0.4 will look better
     
bmedina
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Apr 10, 2005, 10:03 PM
 
To the developers: have you looked at the foobar program on Windows? It's basically the power user's version of iTunes, and I think you'd do well to incorporate some of its ideas in skiTunes.
( Last edited by bmedina; Apr 11, 2005 at 01:01 AM. )
     
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Apr 10, 2005, 11:32 PM
 
Will you support Smart Playlists?

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haze
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Apr 11, 2005, 01:03 AM
 
i wholeheartedly agree, check out foobar. until something comes close on macosx, i will always have to have a pc desktop.
     
Chuckit
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Apr 11, 2005, 01:28 AM
 
Until Foobar gets a name that doesn't invoke my gag reflex, I'll never know what I'm missing. I refuse to tell people I'm using an app called "Foobar."
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iindigo
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Apr 11, 2005, 07:40 AM
 
I took a look at foobar and I really didn't see anything special... it looks like a lame stripped-down WinAmp to me. Besides, I'm trying to create Mac-like player, not a Windows/Linux-like one.

Please explain what's so special about foobar and I'll consider it. Until then, sorry. (And to Chuckit, yes I agree Foobar is a dumb name)

To the person asking about smart playlists: Yes, we plan to support them.
     
homgran
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Apr 11, 2005, 11:29 AM
 
iindigo, do you intend to implement gapless playback of formats such as mp3 and aac? This would be a killer feature, since at the moment (as far as I know) there is no audio player on OS X which allows for gapless mp3 playback.

I have heard that this is primarily due to an inherent flaw in the mp3 format, but that it is theoretically possible to "fix" during playback. Can you shed any light on this?


-Matt
     
tooki
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Apr 11, 2005, 11:50 AM
 
What I find so humorous about the Carbon-Cocoa debate is that people seem to generalize Carbon as being all-bad, and Cocoa as being all-good. In fact, as a casual read of the Mac OS X Human Interface Guidelines will show, Cocoa is richer in some areas, and Carbon is richer in others. My understanding is that for some tasks, Cocoa is faster, for others Carbon is. Overall, my opinion is that they are both good but different environments. Besides, one needn't choose one or the other, one can pick and choose from both and get the best of both worlds (and even more, if you consider the ability to grab from Java, AppleScript, and command-line apps, too).

Carbon's reputation was tarnished by a couple of terrible Carbon apps, but that wasn't really Carbon's fault!

Finally, I find it annoying that people poo-poo Carbon for the simple reason that if Carbon had not existed, Mac OS X would have failed instantly. Without Carbon, almost no Mac apps would ever have made the transition from Mac OS 9, and we'd all either be on Mac OS 9.2.2.85, or we'd be on Windows. Carbon was a brilliant implementation that we owe the survival of Mac OS X to.

Finally, it certainly seems possible for Carbon apps to allow command-clickthrough: the Finder does it (as does MS Office to a very limited extent).

tooki
     
CharlesS
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Apr 11, 2005, 01:59 PM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
What I find so humorous about the Carbon-Cocoa debate is that people seem to generalize Carbon as being all-bad, and Cocoa as being all-good. In fact, as a casual read of the Mac OS X Human Interface Guidelines will show, Cocoa is richer in some areas, and Carbon is richer in others. My understanding is that for some tasks, Cocoa is faster, for others Carbon is.
Carbon is faster than Cocoa is. It doesn't depend on the task, really - Objective-C has a message-passing overhead that C just doesn't have. It's one of the trade-offs of Cocoa.

Carbon isn't all-bad. It's better than Cocoa for cross-platform development (C and C++ are obviously much more prominent on other platforms than Objective-C) and for things like games where Cocoa's UI features largely go to waste.

Of course, a Cocoa app could be better optimized than an equivalent Carbon app, causing it to be faster. But that would be due to the app, not the framework.

Carbon's reputation was tarnished by a couple of terrible Carbon apps, but that wasn't really Carbon's fault!

Finally, I find it annoying that people poo-poo Carbon for the simple reason that if Carbon had not existed, Mac OS X would have failed instantly. Without Carbon, almost no Mac apps would ever have made the transition from Mac OS 9, and we'd all either be on Mac OS 9.2.2.85, or we'd be on Windows. Carbon was a brilliant implementation that we owe the survival of Mac OS X to.
I haven't poo-pooed Carbon at all. Note that in other threads I have called iTunes, which really is a fine app, the poster child of a good Carbon port. And of course I recognize the value of Carbon and why it is necessary. I think I've even pointed that out in this thread.

What I am criticizing is the people on the other extreme who claim that an app being written in Cocoa is completely meaningless and that there's no difference whatsoever. This is simply not true, because Cocoa does offer quite a few nice features. And to criticize an app simply for mentioning the fact that it's written in Cocoa just seems like overdoing it.

Finally, it certainly seems possible for Carbon apps to allow command-clickthrough: the Finder does it (as does MS Office to a very limited extent).
Not true:

- Command-drag a Finder window's scroll bar when another app is in the front - nothing happens, and Finder window pops to the front.

- Command-click a file in a Finder window when another app is in the front - Finder window pops to the front.

- Command-click a toolbar widget in a Finder window while another app is in front - nothing happens, and Finder window pops to the front.

The same things happened when I tried them with Word (admittedly, v. X and not 2004). In a Cocoa app, you can click on just about any control and have it do its thing without bringing the app to the front by holding down the Command key. Hopefully, Carbon will behave this way someday when Apple integrates Carbon and Cocoa more closely so that Cocoa is built on top of Carbon.

A similar issue is the proxy icons in window title bars, like for a folder window in the Finder. In Cocoa apps, you can grab one of those and start dragging without popping the app to the front. With Carbon apps except, apparently, for Word, this won't work, and the window will always pop up in front of what you were doing unless, apparently, you hold the Command key down. Thanks, tooki. This used to drive me crazy before Exposé came along, when I'd have both a Terminal and a Finder folder window open, and I'd want to drag the folder icon from the window title bar into the Terminal window. I'd start the drag, and D'OH! The Finder window just covered up the Terminal window I was dragging to!

Carbon isn't perfect, yet.
( Last edited by CharlesS; Apr 11, 2005 at 04:21 PM. )

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tooki
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Apr 11, 2005, 02:58 PM
 
Actually, when I said that Office supports limited background clicks, the proxy icons are exactly what I had in mind. I just tried it, and indeed you can command-click on a background window of Office and see the file path, or click-and-hold the proxy icon to drag it, both without bringing the app to the front. (I am using Office 2004.)

Similarly, I can drag from a Finder window to the Terminal without bringing the Finder to the front, and by using the Command key, I can drag the proxy icon of a Finder window to the Terminal as well. (Not using Command does indeed cause the window to come to the front when dragging the proxy.)

So while I know that most controls in Carbon don't allow click-through, I don't know why you are getting none when I have at least some. Weird.

tooki

P.S. I wasn't responding to you specifically, CharlesS -- I was just ranting to all the people in the Carbon-Cocoa fray.
     
Krypton  (op)
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Apr 11, 2005, 03:23 PM
 
Why don't you people start a 'Perpetual Carbon v Cocoa thread' somewhere instead of hijacking every thread for this purpose?

iindigo I like the new interface direction (i.e. Tiger mail/Netnewswire 2), although obviously it's still a little rough.
     
iindigo
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Apr 11, 2005, 03:29 PM
 
Originally posted by homgran:
iindigo, do you intend to implement gapless playback of formats such as mp3 and aac? This would be a killer feature, since at the moment (as far as I know) there is no audio player on OS X which allows for gapless mp3 playback.

I have heard that this is primarily due to an inherent flaw in the mp3 format, but that it is theoretically possible to "fix" during playback. Can you shed any light on this?


-Matt
I'm not exactly sure how to fix this, but I believe it would have to pre-load the next song before playing it, so it's instantly available, and therefore no gap.

The way most all music player do it currently is not load the next song until the current song has finished, and this is where the delay comes in, as it takes a little time to load the file.


I could be wrong though, I'm not that grand of a programmer -
     
CharlesS
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Apr 11, 2005, 04:19 PM
 
Originally posted by tooki:
Actually, when I said that Office supports limited background clicks, the proxy icons are exactly what I had in mind. I just tried it, and indeed you can command-click on a background window of Office and see the file path, or click-and-hold the proxy icon to drag it, both without bringing the app to the front. (I am using Office 2004.)

Similarly, I can drag from a Finder window to the Terminal without bringing the Finder to the front, and by using the Command key, I can drag the proxy icon of a Finder window to the Terminal as well. (Not using Command does indeed cause the window to come to the front when dragging the proxy.)
Huh, you're right. Office 2004 does indeed work similarly to Cocoa apps regarding the proxy icon. And the Finder does seem to support dragging proxy icons from the background with the Command key down. I wonder how long it's been that way? I'm pretty sure it didn't work in 10.2. At least, I hope it didn't, because if it did, I wasted a lot of grief due to this thing.

See why it'd be nice for everything to be consistent?

Uunfortunately, a similar situation, dragging files from the right-most column of a column-view window, does always pop the window to the front, even with the Command key down. Oh well, can't have everything, I guess...

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haze
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Apr 12, 2005, 02:05 AM
 
Stripped down winamp? Hahaha, more like kicked up winamp. All winamp has going for it is eye candy. Foobar is superior to winamp and iTunes due to 3rd party plugin support (a very long list of exceleltn plugins including ability to control through irc clients, decode audio from video games, including console games, cue create, the list goes on and if something is misisng a plugin can be created), support for just about every codec under the moon, gapless playback, replaygain, cue sheet support, mass tagger, numerous converters, and so on. The flexibility, versatility, and customizability are great. Especially if you learn and utilize the advanced scripting. Gapless playback and multiformat support are the most important, though all the advance features are great too. i like to have cotrol over my music. I understand it is a program for audiophiles, geeks, etc., but there are a lot of us. Being new to Mac, the only complaint I have is that a lot of the community jsut want things to work, Kind of like lemming syndrome. I like to have flexibility, control, tweak things, know how things work, etc. I know the Mac has to have other like me with the darwin core drawing *nix converts.
     
Chuckit
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Apr 12, 2005, 02:23 AM
 
Originally posted by haze:
Being new to Mac, the only complaint I have is that a lot of the community jsut want things to work, Kind of like lemming syndrome.
How is wanting things to work out of the box in any way lemming-like? Sounds to me much more like Smart Consumer Syndrome.
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solbo
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Apr 12, 2005, 08:28 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
How is wanting things to work out of the box in any way lemming-like? Sounds to me much more like Smart Consumer Syndrome.
That is a priceless quote

Personally I wish things just broke. So I could spend time fixing them...
     
Millennium
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Apr 12, 2005, 08:31 AM
 
Originally posted by haze:
Stripped down winamp? Hahaha, more like kicked up winamp. All winamp has going for it is eye candy. Foobar is superior to winamp and iTunes due to 3rd party plugin support...
Actually, WinAmp has third-party plugin support too. iTunes technically does as well -it's inherited from SoundJam- but for some odd reason Apple's lawyers jump all over anyone who tries to make an audio-format plugin.
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Apr 12, 2005, 09:45 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
Actually, WinAmp has third-party plugin support too. iTunes technically does as well -it's inherited from SoundJam- but for some odd reason Apple's lawyers jump all over anyone who tries to make an audio-format plugin.
Well, there is an audio-plugin for iTunes:
VolumeLogic

Highly recommended

And any audio-format plugin added to QuickTime will let iTunes play it:
QT Components Projects

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haze
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Apr 12, 2005, 11:11 PM
 
Perhaps that was the wrong phrase, what I mean is they don't care how it works, just that it works. It is computer users in general, PC just seems to have more techno geeks. I like to know how things work and more importantly have options to make it better for me. Not a "it is good enough for the masses." The masses are idiots, I want some control. iTunes being a prime example. Sure it works at playing/organizing .aac, .mp3, and now apple lossles and .ogg (shakily) with plug-in, but beyond that not much. There are no advanced functions and limited flexibilty. Do it this way or forget about it. MacOSX is built on *nix, but the *nix open/customizabile mentallity hasn't caught on as much. Don't get me wrong, I love the GUI and the ease at which it works. Love the OS as whole. Just want some more of the flexible goodies I am accustomed to. Gapless, cue support, and multi-format being highky desirable for iTunes.
     
Chuckit
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Apr 13, 2005, 01:30 AM
 
Apple's doing nothing to prevent "techno-geeks" from coding their own solutions if they feel like messing around...

I think people should understand the tool they're using, but personally, I'm quite happy with a system where the expectation is that I'll get what I need, rather than being told to hack it myself (like I just did to you ).
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bmedina
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Apr 13, 2005, 01:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
Apple's doing nothing to prevent "techno-geeks" from coding their own solutions if they feel like messing around...
Learning a programming language and API is a far cry from simply modifying script files.
     
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Apr 15, 2005, 09:06 AM
 
     
albook
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Apr 15, 2005, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by iindigo
http://macupdate.com/download.php/17404/skiTunes.dmg
Could not read file.

Go back. /home/ftp/pub/sourceforge//s/so/sourceforge/skitunes/skiTunes.dmg
     
iindigo
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Apr 15, 2005, 09:24 AM
 
Should be fixed soon. Meanwhile, use this link: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/s...s.dmg?download
     
albook
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Apr 15, 2005, 11:23 AM
 
^ Thanks, I got it now..
     
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Apr 15, 2005, 03:09 PM
 
It bounces endlessly in my dock...
     
iindigo
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May 11, 2005, 08:48 PM
 
I've worked on the interface quite a bit, check it out and give input on it here:

http://skitunes.iindigo3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29
     
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May 12, 2005, 09:12 AM
 
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Kristoff
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May 12, 2005, 11:29 AM
 
Here's my two cents.

I haven't even looked at it, so this is my gut talking:

WHAT'S THE POINT?

I mean, I don't even feel compelled to look at it. This is what you have to overcome if you want it to be successful. iTunes is free, it's already there, and works with my iPod. So, why would I waste time looking at something else? There is no disenfranchised user base--as far as I know. What are you trying to do with this project that iTunes doesn't already do?
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May 12, 2005, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kristoff
Here's my two cents.

I haven't even looked at it, so this is my gut talking:

WHAT'S THE POINT?

I mean, I don't even feel compelled to look at it. This is what you have to overcome if you want it to be successful. iTunes is free, it's already there, and works with my iPod. So, why would I waste time looking at something else? There is no disenfranchised user base--as far as I know. What are you trying to do with this project that iTunes doesn't already do?
This is the way I see it:

I think there's definitely a niche market for an iTunes-like player that will play more open-source files like Ogg Vorbis and FLAC, especially for people who are migrating to the Mac from a Windows or Linux background and have a lot of legacy files or who are just used to having more options than iTunes can provide. Also, as iTunes incorporates more and more features that have little or nothing to do with playing music (like the most recent version's video playback features), there are going to be some who want a "pure" stripped-down music player. I think it's the same kind of driving force behind an application like Adium, which doesn't really do anything more than the offical instant messenging clients do. It just does the same thing in a more efficient package.
     
iindigo
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May 12, 2005, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Kristoff
Here's my two cents.

I haven't even looked at it, so this is my gut talking:

WHAT'S THE POINT?

I mean, I don't even feel compelled to look at it. This is what you have to overcome if you want it to be successful. iTunes is free, it's already there, and works with my iPod. So, why would I waste time looking at something else? There is no disenfranchised user base--as far as I know. What are you trying to do with this project that iTunes doesn't already do?

This aims to be more than iTunes is and ever will be; a "Pro version" of iTunes if you will. There are quite a few features that people want in iTunes that Apple won't put in (OGG and WMA support, gapless playback, the option not to mess with the user's organzation, and iPod to computer transfers just to name a few). skiTunes will hopefully fill this gap for people who want more than just basic 'ol iTunes. EDIT: I got to think about it, and I look at it this way: what if Apple said, "Why make Mac OS? Windows is already here!" . Competition is a healthy thing.

Another minor reason it exists is Apple's refusing to use the system's interface resources in iTunes (it uses its own) - it makes iTunes very hard to theme, and what is themable is rather limited.

As for the person requesting nightlies: trust me, you're not missing anything skiTunes is actually currently broken and we're working on it.
     
Weyland-Yutani
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May 12, 2005, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by lenox
| insert obligatory "Finder.app should be rewritten in Cocoa already!" whine here |
Nah it's nothing like that. Finder can be written in BASIC for all most people care as long as it works like the charm it should be.

We call it: FTFF

It is but a dream. Today. But one day.. it may just become a reality.



(PS: Lighten up lenox, the Finder sucks in many respects and hasn't seen bugfixes since 2002. So FTFF already Apple!!)

“Building Better Worlds”
     
Chuckit
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May 12, 2005, 05:15 PM
 
Lenox probably has lightened up a bit in the two months since he made that post.
Chuck
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"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
Weyland-Yutani
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May 12, 2005, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Lenox probably has lightened up a bit in the two months since he made that post.
Well he hasn't returned any of my calls..



“Building Better Worlds”
     
iindigo
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May 18, 2005, 12:02 AM
 
Just letting you guys know that the official skiTunes forums have moved to CocoaForge, and a that a number of developments are shown in this thread: http://forums.cocoaforge.com/viewtop...er=asc&start=0
     
Krypton  (op)
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May 18, 2005, 04:24 AM
 
Now this, is very cool:

[ALL inline images must be no wider than 480 pixels. --tooki]
( Last edited by tooki; May 19, 2005 at 10:16 AM. )
     
qnxde
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May 19, 2005, 03:24 AM
 
Unified toolbar.

Go on, you know you want to.

You can't eat all those hamburgers, you hear me you ridiculous man?
     
 
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