[ebuddy]

For Europe, that is not bad, considering that the US mainly consist of ex-europeans, and considering that the US is mainly christian, but for the non-european countries the US-culture-empire is oppressive.

Name for me a policy of oppression due to US influence anywhere in the world Taliesin. Freedom of religion? Nope. Freedom of press? nope. free market? nope. individual opportunity for success? nope. freedom of speech to the extent the "different democracy" allows? nope. Elections? nope. Again, you're dangerously close to a racist stance in believing the majority of inhabitants in the Middle East are barbarians that actually appreciate dictatorial regimes, rape rooms, daily terrorism before and after 9/11, and mass genocide. What you fail to realize consistently is that the democracies created by US influence while looking little like our own have improved the conditions upon which they settled. You can't argue this. You simply have no example of US influence increasing oppression. I will have undoubtedly closed another thread with the above. I understand you hate America, but please keep your arguments founded upon factual data and not emotional blather. We get enought of that around here.

Our actions have not created one new terrorist, not one. You can't prove that and your points in support of that do not hold water. We are stirring a nest of bees to be sure. The cells were dormant and organizing and planning their imperialism much like you believe the US plans it's imperialism. We're actively breaking those cells up and disrupting their finance. Ever remove a nest of dormant bees? Know what they do? They all fly out of the hive and desperately begin attacking. This doesn't mean they never existed. It means we've stirred them from dormancy. I understand your distaste and discomfort in our actions, but the hive needed to be removed. Thankfully, most of the free world agrees with this and whether they agree with our system of government or not, they're pleased Saddam is gone. If you think the desire to spread one's own ideals is exclusive to America your head is firmly planted in the Arabian sands. Imperialism is human nature. I don't like that about us, but it is so. The world will come to a head of ideals. Each community will have a stake in the future. They can have a future of tyranny under oppressive religious doctrine, persecution, kidnappings, henchmen, genocide, rape, and murder giving all power to a few- or they can have a life of individual freedoms, peace, freedom of speech, electoral systems, democracy, freedom of worship, free enterprise, and economic opportunity affording all the right to power.

In an increasingly volatile world America's innocent were brought unwittingly into the world's agression against her will. Our country was fastly beginning to forget the importance of freedom and the cost. Our people were fastly becoming all too tolerant of the world's oppression and oppressors. To the terrorist I say, nicely done. Had you not attacked us, we would've continued a policy of isolationism while waiting for a much bigger attack having afforded you more time to plan more devastation. Now, you have disturbed this nest of bees and the world will change to be sure. I guess you could say; "The terrorists have created more Americans." If it changes for the worst, it's simply happening now as opposed to later. If it changes for the better, you will again thank us for doing your dirty work until the novelty of that benevolence wears off as it always does allowing you to again critique every move we make. Pessimism, fear, and ignorance of human nature and the state of our world does not make the world more peaceful. When you've created a democracy in little more than 200 years, more prosperous than the oldest of societies among us, spread that wealth and charity in such a way that has never been witnessed in the history of mankind, I'll give you the authority to critique our system of government and foreign policy. Until then, don't be surprised if I've lumped you in with the pessimistic, ignorant, complacent, and fearful.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Name for me a policy of oppression due to US influence anywhere in the world Taliesin. Freedom of religion? Nope. Freedom of press? nope. free market? nope. individual opportunity for success? nope. freedom of speech to the extent the "different democracy" allows? nope. Elections? nope. Again, you're dangerously close to a racist stance in believing the majority of inhabitants in the Middle East are barbarians that actually appreciate dictatorial regimes, rape rooms, daily terrorism before and after 9/11, and mass genocide. What you fail to realize consistently is that the democracies created by US influence while looking little like our own have improved the conditions upon which they settled. You can't argue this. You simply have no example of US influence increasing oppression. I will have undoubtedly closed another thread with the above. I understand you hate America, but please keep your arguments founded upon factual data and not emotional blather. We get enought of that around here.

Our actions have not created one new terrorist, not one. You can't prove that and your points in support of that do not hold water. We are stirring a nest of bees to be sure. The cells were dormant and organizing and planning their imperialism much like you believe the US plans it's imperialism. We're actively breaking those cells up and disrupting their finance. Ever remove a nest of dormant bees? Know what they do? They all fly out of the hive and desperately begin attacking. This doesn't mean they never existed. It means we've stirred them from dormancy. I understand your distaste and discomfort in our actions, but the hive needed to be removed. Thankfully, most of the free world agrees with this and whether they agree with our system of government or not, they're pleased Saddam is gone. If you think the desire to spread one's own ideals is exclusive to America your head is firmly planted in the Arabian sands. Imperialism is human nature. I don't like that about us, but it is so. The world will come to a head of ideals. Each community will have a stake in the future. They can have a future of tyranny under oppressive religious doctrine, persecution, kidnappings, henchmen, genocide, rape, and murder giving all power to a few- or they can have a life of individual freedoms, peace, freedom of speech, electoral systems, democracy, freedom of worship, free enterprise, and economic opportunity affording all the right to power.

In an increasingly volatile world America's innocent were brought unwittingly into the world's agression against her will. Our country was fastly beginning to forget the importance of freedom and the cost. Our people were fastly becoming all too tolerant of the world's oppression and oppressors. To the terrorist I say, nicely done. Had you not attacked us, we would've continued a policy of isolationism while waiting for a much bigger attack having afforded you more time to plan more devastation. Now, you have disturbed this nest of bees and the world will change to be sure. I guess you could say; "The terrorists have created more Americans." If it changes for the worst, it's simply happening now as opposed to later. If it changes for the better, you will again thank us for doing your dirty work until the novelty of that benevolence wears off as it always does allowing you to again critique every move we make. Pessimism, fear, and ignorance of human nature and the state of our world does not make the world more peaceful. When you've created a democracy in little more than 200 years, more prosperous than the oldest of societies among us, spread that wealth and charity in such a way that has never been witnessed in the history of mankind, I'll give you the authority to critique our system of government and foreign policy. Until then, don't be surprised if I've lumped you in with the pessimistic, ignorant, complacent, and fearful.

SURELY THIS POST IS WORTHY OF A "SMACKDOWN!!!"

When will the mods un-banish Zimphire???

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ah, I see, thanks for the info. Now my last reply to him looks very funny.

Taliesin

Hey Taliesin, no one can know EVERYTHING, right?

As brilliant and insightful as vmarks is, even HE doesn't know everything!

LOL

BTW, thanks for the 'assist' vmarks!

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Name for me a policy of oppression due to US influence anywhere in the world Taliesin. Freedom of religion? Nope. Freedom of press? nope. free market? nope. individual opportunity for success? nope. freedom of speech to the extent the "different democracy" allows? nope. Elections? nope. Again, you're dangerously close to a racist stance in believing the majority of inhabitants in the Middle East are barbarians that actually appreciate dictatorial regimes, rape rooms, daily terrorism before and after 9/11, and mass genocide. What you fail to realize consistently is that the democracies created by US influence while looking little like our own have improved the conditions upon which they settled. You can't argue this. You simply have no example of US influence increasing oppression. I will have undoubtedly closed another thread with the above. I understand you hate America, but please keep your arguments founded upon factual data and not emotional blather. We get enought of that around here.

Our actions have not created one new terrorist, not one. You can't prove that and your points in support of that do not hold water. We are stirring a nest of bees to be sure. The cells were dormant and organizing and planning their imperialism much like you believe the US plans it's imperialism. We're actively breaking those cells up and disrupting their finance. Ever remove a nest of dormant bees? Know what they do? They all fly out of the hive and desperately begin attacking. This doesn't mean they never existed. It means we've stirred them from dormancy. I understand your distaste and discomfort in our actions, but the hive needed to be removed. Thankfully, most of the free world agrees with this and whether they agree with our system of government or not, they're pleased Saddam is gone. If you think the desire to spread one's own ideals is exclusive to America your head is firmly planted in the Arabian sands. Imperialism is human nature. I don't like that about us, but it is so. The world will come to a head of ideals. Each community will have a stake in the future. They can have a future of tyranny under oppressive religious doctrine, persecution, kidnappings, henchmen, genocide, rape, and murder giving all power to a few- or they can have a life of individual freedoms, peace, freedom of speech, electoral systems, democracy, freedom of worship, free enterprise, and economic opportunity affording all the right to power.

In an increasingly volatile world America's innocent were brought unwittingly into the world's agression against her will. Our country was fastly beginning to forget the importance of freedom and the cost. Our people were fastly becoming all too tolerant of the world's oppression and oppressors. To the terrorist I say, nicely done. Had you not attacked us, we would've continued a policy of isolationism while waiting for a much bigger attack having afforded you more time to plan more devastation. Now, you have disturbed this nest of bees and the world will change to be sure. I guess you could say; "The terrorists have created more Americans." If it changes for the worst, it's simply happening now as opposed to later. If it changes for the better, you will again thank us for doing your dirty work until the novelty of that benevolence wears off as it always does allowing you to again critique every move we make. Pessimism, fear, and ignorance of human nature and the state of our world does not make the world more peaceful. When you've created a democracy in little more than 200 years, more prosperous than the oldest of societies among us, spread that wealth and charity in such a way that has never been witnessed in the history of mankind, I'll give you the authority to critique our system of government and foreign policy. Until then, don't be surprised if I've lumped you in with the pessimistic, ignorant, complacent, and fearful.

**SMACKDOWN!!**

[dcolton]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
SURELY THIS POST IS WORTHY OF A "SMACKDOWN!!!"

When will the mods un-banish Zimphire???

It is a quarterly effort. Can't have too many conservatives posting at one time! (Just kidding, MacNN has proven to be quite fair since the addition of Vmarks as a mod and the lightening up on bans). BUT, if we don't chill out a bit with the islam bashing, all hell is gonna break loose and we may lose the opposing views that we enjoy debating with so much. Let's take a break from the attacking and hateful speech. I am one of the worst...but I am going to make an effort. I think I can speak about Iraq, Israel and terrorism without using offensive and harsh language. I am going to try.

We may have already lost Lerkfish...I don't know, but I sure do miss his posts.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by dcolton:
It is a quarterly effort. Can't have too many conservatives posting at one time! (Just kidding, MacNN has proven to be quite fair since the addition of Vmarks as a mod and the lightening up on bans). BUT, if we don't chill out a bit with the islam bashing, all hell is gonna break loose and we may lose the opposing views that we enjoy debating with so much. Let's take a break from the attacking and hateful speech. I am one of the worst...but I am going to make an effort. I think I can speak about Iraq, Israel and terrorism without using offensive and harsh language. I am going to try.

We may have already lost Lerkfish...I don't know, but I sure do miss his posts.

Lerk lost himself with his profanity aimed at other members. It's no secret that I've been "calling people to the carpet" for their abusive and profane behavior, there's no excuse for it. If he, or anyone else, can't discuss topics here without cussing people out or calling them names, I'd rather they not be here at all.

[aberdeenwriter]

Congratulations, ebuddy!!!

Well deserved!

If I'm not mistaken, Zimphire's 'offense' wasn't all that offensive.

Unless it was a matter of a bunch of minor or borderline offenses that were combined to 'earn' him a banishment.

Can we petition for his early release or anything?

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Name for me a policy of oppression due to US influence anywhere in the world Taliesin. Freedom of religion? Nope. Freedom of press? nope. free market? nope. individual opportunity for success? nope. freedom of speech to the extent the "different democracy" allows? nope. Elections? nope.

You must be joking, LOL. Freedom and democracy are exactly the things the US didn't and doesn't want the thirdworld in general and the ressource-rich middle-east espescially to have. That's why the US installed and financed dictatorships, and provoked, instilled and financed military-coups in democracies of the thirdworld, and even assassinated democratically elected politicians.

You may be asking why. But it should be clear, dictators are in general much easier to control than free democracies. Free democracies tend to lead to souvereign states, but exactly that is not in the interest of the US and the west in general, as it could hamper the free flow of ressources from the thirdworld to the first one. These souvereign states could decide to use more of their own ressources for their own industrial projects, etc...

Now, you may ask, what do I mean then with the cultural empire when obviously freedom and democracy are not extended to the ressource-rich middle-east countries? Freedom and democracy are not cultural things, they are just forms of government of organization and structure. Culture includes history, fiction, way of life, food, clothing, music and movies, these are forced upon the thirdworld, including the middle-east, because they have to keep their markets open to US-products, while on the other hand the US keeps its market for products that the thirdworld produces, mainly agriculture products, through high tarrifs and subventions to local producers, closed.

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Again, you're dangerously close to a racist stance in believing the majority of inhabitants in the Middle East are barbarians that actually appreciate dictatorial regimes, rape rooms, daily terrorism before and after 9/11, and mass genocide. What you fail to realize consistently is that the democracies created by US influence while looking little like our own have improved the conditions upon which they settled. You can't argue this. You simply have no example of US influence increasing oppression. I will have undoubtedly closed another thread with the above. I understand you hate America, but please keep your arguments founded upon factual data and not emotional blather. We get enought of that around here.

You don't get it, hmm, the arabic world is hating the US not because the US stands for freedom and democracy, but because the US stands for oppression and support and installation and training and military equipping of bruatal dictators and their dictatorial regimes.

Just look at how it is supporting Pakistans dictator Musharraf, or the dictatorial family of the Sauds.

I don't hate the US, that would somehow resemble a possible love for it, you know there is a thin line between love and hate. I can't hate something I have never loved. I see the effects of the US-policy of the last 60 years in the arabic countries, since the US has basically overtaken the colonies from Europe and put into power local governors, read dictators. Therefore I despise US-foreign-policy, that's all there is, I don't despise the US in general or the the US-population, just the US-foreign policy and imperialistic behaviour regarding regions with other cultures and religions.

But obviously you seem to base your arguments on high-gloss-US-propaganda-prospects, which decribe how the US wants to see itself, as a benevolent hegemon, that is spreading freedom and democracy... that's really funny and orwellian.

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Our actions have not created one new terrorist, not one. You can't prove that and your points in support of that do not hold water.

Actually the US-actions (CIA and other departments) have developed a jihad-ideology, that justified terroristic activities, decades ago, and instructed its arabic neo-colonies to preach them in mosques and recruited Osama Bin Ladin to help the US to recruit mujahideens in the whole arabic world and to train them in Pakistan in guerillia-warfare and in terroristic actions and then to send to Afghanistan to topple the Pro-Soviet-Union-government and to fight the army of the Soviet-Union out of Afghanistan. Carter and Reagan were the presidents at that time, so what do you want to say now?

Originally posted by ebuddy:
In an increasingly volatile world America's innocent were brought unwittingly into the world's agression against her will. Our country was fastly beginning to forget the importance of freedom and the cost. Our people were fastly becoming all too tolerant of the world's oppression and oppressors. To the terrorist I say, nicely done. Had you not attacked us, we would've continued a policy of isolationism while waiting for a much bigger attack having afforded you more time to plan more devastation. Now, you have disturbed this nest of bees and the world will change to be sure. I guess you could say; "The terrorists have created more Americans." If it changes for the worst, it's simply happening now as opposed to later. If it changes for the better, you will again thank us for doing your dirty work until the novelty of that benevolence wears off as it always does allowing you to again critique every move we make. Pessimism, fear, and ignorance of human nature and the state of our world does not make the world more peaceful.

:Cough:, the US installing, financing and supporting dictatorial regimes, the US supporting military coups against democratically elected governments, the US assassinating democratically elected politicians, the US recruiting and training terrorists in the US (school of americas) and in other countries (Pakistan), :cough:

Originally posted by ebuddy:
When you've created a democracy in little more than 200 years, more prosperous than the oldest of societies among us, spread that wealth and charity in such a way that has never been witnessed in the history of mankind, I'll give you the authority to critique our system of government and foreign policy. Until then, don't be surprised if I've lumped you in with the pessimistic, ignorant, complacent, and fearful.

Ah, I see, when the US is supporting and installing dictatorships, recruiting and training terrorists, financing military coups against democratically elected governments and assassinating democratically elected politicians, I should just remember that the arabic countries, thanks to the US, don't have democracies and therefore stop any critique against US-foreign policies, ah now I understand.

See, the US is not bad inside the US, not perfect mind you, but much better than the arabic dictaorships, but outside the US and espescially regarding the thirdworld, the US is devastating and destructive.

I haven't even brought in the topic of Israel.

Taliesin

[aberdeenwriter]

taliesin you here?

[aberdeenwriter]

ISRAEL? ISRAEL??

What problems you got with ISRAEL???

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
ISRAEL? ISRAEL??

What problems you got with ISRAEL???

I have to go now, but that last one, I will answer quickly: The problem I have with Israel is that it is merely slightly more than an independent US-military- and US-spybase, created specifically to control the arabic US-neo-colonies in the region.

Taliesin

[ebuddy]

You must be joking, LOL. Freedom and democracy are exactly the things the US didn't and doesn't want the thirdworld in general and the ressource-rich middle-east espescially to have.

Bush on democratizing the Middle East, regarding the successes of our actions in Iraq �they will serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region.� One other thing to note. We built a blueprint for the Iraqi Consitution and we're facilitating the environment for free elections to be held in Afghanistan and iraq this fall. Hmm, interesting how a nation that wants to build dictatorships is actively involved in producing democracies.

You may be asking why.

No. I'm not asking why. We had bigger threats at the time. We were a little naive regarding the culture. We did not believe they were hell-bent on imperialistic intentions like the USSR. That was our bigger concern in Afghanistan. Our concern in the 80's was not Saddam and Iraq, it was Iran. We did not create Saddam. Saddam was very successful and believe it or not his initial intentions for Iraq were very healthy and seemed to be very sound policy for the building of a great nation. We bought into that and fortified him with resources to handle for us what we considered a bigger threat at the time. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

But it should be clear, dictators are in general much easier to control than free democracies.

Is this why we're attacking Turkey? Oh wait, we're not attacking Turkey. Right, so in your estimation it might've been effective foreign policy to create a dictatorship to use as a tool against larger sovereign threats and when that dictatorship gets out of hand they are much easier to deal with than the larger sovereign threat we had prior right? Nicely done Taliesin, on this we do agree."The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

These souvereign states could decide to use more of their own ressources for their own industrial projects, etc...

Without US consumership? Good luck. Democracies engage economic policy that usually begets win-win relationships between the nations. Often times democracies engage mutually beneficial import/export trade and negotiations with other sovereign nations. Any economist will tell you that isolationism is poor fiscal policy. Also, there is a small aspect of production that begs attention...competition. You want the best of ideas with regards to building industries, guess who could be instrumental in facilitating the best for you, that's right the US. Dicatorships will cut off their nose to spite their face. It matters not to the dictator what is good for his people, it matters what is good for him.

Bush not only enjoys American approval over John Kerry in debating the needs in Iraq, but is also enjoying the majority of American's support for our actions in Iraq. We're not only speaking, we're acting. You can pretend the world was a big happy place until America came on the scene little over 200 years ago, but you're sadly ignorant of the history behind the Middle East.

The US is imperialistic. You are imperialistic. I am imperialistic. Arabs are imperialistic. Americans are imperialistic. Chinese are imperialistic. We're all imperialistic and I won't even go into Palestinian imperialism and their "foreign policy". Now, with that in mind, what governing rule would you rather see? I've made my preference clear along with most other Americans. I think you made your preference known as well by your statement; "See, the US is not bad inside the US, not perfect mind you, but much better than the arabic dictaorships". I appreciate your acknowledgement of our society and I agree with you. We don't want to occupy, we want to change. Once change is complete, we will no longer occupy.

Good day.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by idjeff:
I know that the majority of muslims are not fanatical murderers, but bin laden has made it difficult to almost impossible for non-muslim westerners to trust muslims.

The only person that has control over your fears and mistrust is you.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Myrkridia:
The only person that has control over your fears and mistrust is you.

[swrate]

Yes, that�s right, controlling fears, fear
like the fear I feel reading posts for example ebuddy�s:

In an increasingly volatile world America's innocent were brought unwittingly into the world's agression against her will. Our country was fastly beginning to forget the importance of freedom and the cost. Our people were fastly becoming all too tolerant of the world's oppression and oppressors. To the terrorist I say, nicely done. Had you not attacked us, we would've continued a policy of isolationism while waiting for a much bigger attack having afforded you more time to plan more devastation.

Fear N� 1 , terrorism, so why does US treat Iraqis, whole populations i.e. Najaf, Fallujah, Bassorah, as if they were terrorists? Should I post the bodycount statistics and facts?


You say terrorism has helped the US get out of isolationism, I wonder�.. how do the secret services collaborate?

The consequences of that paranoiac and often aggressive approach is bringing animosity around the rest of the World. Not that you guys care that much..

And a question: Who are the real oppressors?
Obviously, that terror fear is being used as a political tool, by �both sides�.

Pendant ce temps:
No surprise that more and more kids live under miserable conditions under the US �Occupation� supervised from afar by nervous US Units, those kids will rebel and this means that achieving the pipeline terminals and intersections will eternally be a problem, and that area may become similar to the �terrorism� in Tchetchenya, which becomes under terribly tragic living conditions RESISTANCE imo.
I think the only remaining population who reacts to invasion peacefully is the Tibetans. Those who don�t resist disappear or are absorbed and �syncretise� with the �Invader�.
The governments create their own terrorists, Russia by not recognizing Tchetchenya, Isra�l by not recognizing Palestinia, the US by letting Afghanistan in the blue and by now trying to control Iraq.
Iraq, who used to be a more or less tolerant country has become radical in all fields, religion, economy, social. I doubt the schools have normal cursuses, the hospitals are overbooked, people are starving, sick, without enough medication, we don�t hear much about it because the reporters and humanitarians over there take high risks and would probably be denied authorizations on many sites (hospitals, prisons, schools, cemeteries) and one has to probably move around in convoy, sort of guided visits, with a translator and a few Iraqi Milicians, all this supervised by the US army.
I doubt Iraq, the deep Iraq will capitulate, the tribes fight may they be Sunnis, Shias, Kurds, and refuse to be the puppets of the US, but maybe that horrid Www�z plan I read with disgust 3-4 years ago on the Net, plan who clearly mentioned using starvation, malnutrition, sicknesses and slow extinction of the population, as a tool to make populations dependant and control them. could materialize. This would mean division of Iraq in three of four? parts before the next five years.
Not optimistic,
Freedom? The �Pentagon just wants to mould the world according to it�s plans. �They don�t really care about the thousands of dead Iraqi, that would be 14? More? double pages of identity pics, 14 DOUBLE PAGES OF IDENTITY PICS of missing people in the News-paper. �They don�t mind either traumatizing generations, as long as it�s not �theirs. �Those towel heads were used to it under SH, life�s better now for them, so if they resist, bomb them all it�s for the sake of democracy� is their main theme.
Yet in the Pentagon, �they send prayers and invocations so that �their (machiavellian

) plans work out.


The world�s oppression and oppressors��
Moi dans
n.maAt

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Myrkridia:
The only person that has control over your fears and mistrust is you.

There's an unspoken, "HOWEVER" you have forgotten to include in your assertion.

I will give YOU the chance to post that necessary statement, or I will humiliate you by posting it myself.

I know you are intelligent enough to know what it is.

If you DON'T post the rest of that statement it means you're either:

A) Ignorant

B) Chicken

C) Dishonorably manipulative

or

D) Never going to show your current 'sig' here in these pages again.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
I will give YOU the chance to post that necessary statement, or I will humiliate you by posting it myself.
�
D) Never going to show your current 'sig' here in these pages again.

Do it aber!

Do you know what his sig is?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by eklipse:

BULL FROG!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by CreepingDeath:
Do it aber!

Do you know what his sig is?

Isn't it

------------------------------------> myrkridia?

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Isn't it

------------------------------------> myrkridia?

I don't know.
Why would you hide your sig anyway?
Besides, do you want me to make you one? PM if yes.