[Walker]

My daughter is very smart (straight A student). She's rarely gotten into serious trouble and I'm proud of her in more ways than I can count. However, there is one specific problem that I have with how she thinks. Tonight we got into an argument about illegally downloading music from the internet (I'm totally against it, she's for it). I'm not a perfect parent, but like most parents I've tried to set a good example with decision making. When the iTunes music store opened it was easy to set an expectation from all 3 of my kids that they should not illegally download music ($.99 a track from the iTunes store is very cheap!). My wife and & work hard and make good money and my kids don't go without anything. I truly believe that illegally downloading music is the equivalent of shoplifting from a CD store and I've done a good job communicating with my kids about why I feel this way. I also feel I've set a good example as my purchased music playlist is at a 227 count (which is a lot when I've purchase mainly 1 track at a time) and I don't illegally download music.

Now comes the tricky part and I'm sure some of you will think I'm hypocritical. I have downloaded a limited number of TV shows. Here's the situation: On January 1st 2005, My family moved from South Dakota to Australia for a one year. Whilst here in Australia, there have been times I've missed the lost episodes and forgotten to set the VCR to record. I know that downloading TV shows is a legal grey area, but I do think that I'm not doing anything different than what a person does when they record a TV show with a VCR. ln addition, the USA is about 5 months ahead of Australia for airing new episodes (the new season started in the USA 3 weeks ago, but doesn't start in Australia until next February I think). Not knowing the iTMS was going to start carrying "lost" tv episodes for download, I have downloaded 1st 3 episodes of the 2nd "lost" season. I don't feel that downloading free-over-air TV shows is the immoral equivalent of downloading copywrited music. Maybe I'm wrong. But sometimes a person forgets to set the VCR, and I couldn't find another way to keep up with the series except by downloading the occasional episode. And I didn't know how else I'd catch up to the current running episodes when I return to the USA in January. Now the iTMS has "lost" tv episodes I am more than happy to pay for this download. I feel they are providing this service at a very reasonable price.

Have I lost all my credibility with my kids on this issue because I've downloaded a few episodes of the "lost" tv series? They know I've downloaded these shows, and tonight my daughter used this information against me during our discussion on illegally downloading music. She stated that if I believed it was ok to download the TV shows, then I should believe downloading music and not paying for it is ok also.

Is her argument valid? I hate to think that I've screwed this all up, because it is important to me that I'm a good role model in their life.

Any advice is appreciated,

lw

[bad_quote]

Let her download music. Here's why. From that $12 you spend on a CD, about $1 is used to produce the CD, and most of the rest goes straight into the record companies pockets. These are the same record companies that thought 99 cent tracks on itunes were 'far too cheap' and the same companies that make artists into stars, but take almost all their money. By purchasing music LEGALLY you are support a corrupt, greedy, and illogical organization. Let her download music illegal, and download as many TV shows as you want. If you still feel bad, have her mail a few bucks in cash to teh band in question, that'd be WAAAYYYY more than they'd make if she had bought the CD.

[Randman]

Yes, you are hypocritical.

I'd take the computer away from both of you for a certain amount of time as punishment.

Stealing is stealing, even if you ones are stealing from are rat bastards.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Let her download music. Here's why. From that $12 you spend on a CD, about $1 is used to produce the CD, and most of the rest goes straight into the record companies pockets.

Yes, because the retailers, the carriers and the artistes all work for free.

[jæd]

Originally Posted by Walker

Is her argument valid? I hate to think that I've screwed this all up, because it is important to me that I'm a good role model in their life.

Yep, you've screwed up. "Don't do as I do, do as I say..."... But then whats more important...? Being a good role model or making sure your daughter is smart. I'd rather have the latter. Her brain will last longer than you so she'll have to depend on it more.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Yes, because the retailers, the carriers and the artistes all work for free.

The RIAA does not pay retailers.

[IceEnclosure]

have her start a lemonade stand. she can charge .25 per cup. after she's set it up, drill a hole in the bottom of her lemonade pitcher, and slowly siphon out the lemonade.

cut her profits, make her feel like a recording artist.

"lost" episodes? ey, you forgot to set the VCR!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Walker

Have I lost all my credibility with my kids on this issue because I've downloaded a few episodes of the "lost" tv series?

You're essentially "time shifting" if you're just downloading episodes which you missed. Perfectly acceptable - rather like borrowing a video recording of the episodes from someone (we've all done that, right? "Hey did you tape xxx the other night 'coz I forgot to").

I don't have kids, but I suspect that this is a case of "kids will be kids and use any argument to get their way". If she's not going to listen, she's not going to listen. But here's an idea... ...have the conversation again. This time, record it. When she asks what the recording is for, tell her that it's so you don't have to take responsibility for the huge fine she'll end up having to pay if she gets caught. That might work - and even if it doesn't it still protects you when the RIAA come knocking.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by bad_quote

The RIAA does not pay retailers.

What's the RIAA got to do with it? You stated that $11 of the $12 CD value goes to the record companies. It doesn't. Along the way the retailer takes their cut, the distributor takes their cut, the people who transport the things around physically take their cut, etc., etc..

[dark3lf]

I've got the perfect solution but first you have to post a picture of her. Quid pro quo Walker, quid pro quo.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Doofy

You're essentially "time shifting" if you're just downloading episodes which you missed. Perfectly acceptable - rather like borrowing a video recording of the episodes from someone (we've all done that, right? "Hey did you tape xxx the other night 'coz I forgot to").

I don't have kids, but I suspect that this is a case of "kids will be kids and use any argument to get their way". If she's not going to listen, she's not going to listen. But here's an idea... ...have the conversation again. This time, record it. When she asks what the recording is for, tell her that it's so you don't have to take responsibility for the huge fine she'll end up having to pay if she gets caught. That might work - and even if it doesn't it still protects you when the RIAA come knocking.

By that rational, she's simply time shifting the media she can rent at a public library. Download whatever songs are available at the library, afterall, you could just check them out FREE, and listen to them, but this way it keeps the copies at the library.

[turtle777]

Easy(?) fix:

Buy the downloaded episodes as soon as they become available.

Set the expectations for your kids that IF they download stuff from the internet, they are expected to buy it.

-t

[jhogarty]

Anyone else reminded of that TV commercial with the dad yelling at the kid about his stash of Pot and asking the Kid; "...where did you get/learn this from?" The kid replies; "...from you dad!"

Do the right thing. Maybe sit down with her and say you both should be punished. Let her pick your punishment then you punish her. Let her go first so if she screws you big time you can drop the hammer down on her.

It might just be me, but I find so many people who accept this type of "stealing" and yet they go to church each weekend and claim to be good christians. Hmmm, isn't there a commandment about stealing?

Please don't think I'm picking on you. I have had my share of "demo software" and "backup videos". With time, age, and education I matured. Do the right thing.

J.

[mdc]

I think case of the Lost episodes versus the music, Walker, would you be okay with your daughter downloading music in this case:

Album X comes out in 2 weeks from today and your daughter happens to find it avalabile online (illegal download). So she downloads it, but she honestly plans to, and will, buy it the day it comes out?

You missed your Lost tv show, downloaded the episode, and then when you got back to America, bought it off the iTunes Music Store.

Do you see those two acts as illegal? Are you okay with the Lost one because of the fact that there are legal viable ways of recording broadcast tv?

I believe that downloading tv, music, software, movies, etc illegal, regardless of whether you buy the item when it is avalabile. I sometimes find stuff online before it comes out. I hardly ever download it, but I can understand the reasoning, but I still think it's illegal.

My opinion about your daughter, tell her your opinion and she will make her own decision. I am sure she will make you proud.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Doofy

You're essentially "time shifting" if you're just downloading episodes which you missed. Perfectly acceptable - rather like borrowing a video recording of the episodes from someone (we've all done that, right? "Hey did you tape xxx the other night 'coz I forgot to").

Wrong. The copyright holder has the sole discretion to determine means of distribution. Bittorrent isn't on Disney's list.


What you do is to tell your children that you made a mistake. You follow it up by purchasing the episodes of lost through iTunes that you have already downloaded. If you downloaded episodes from season 1 (which is not in iTunes), then purchase the DVD set. In the future, exercise patience and wait for it to air in Australia, or wait for the DVD set for the season. Tell your daughter that she either purchases the songs she downloaded or she's off the computer for XX amount of time. You should also agree on some sort of punishment for future instances of downloading before buying that will apply to both of you.

[mdc]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

. . .If you downloaded episodes from season 1 (which is not in iTunes). . .

By the way, the whole of season 1 is on iTunes. When you go to Lost season 2 downloas, there is link on the right hand side, towards the top, that says buy season 1 for $34.

just thought I'd let you know.

[Mooga2]

You are being hypocritical. Not to condemn you, but you have your reasons -- which is exactly why you downloaded the episodes in the first place. They mean something to you, and it is easily accessible. Your daughter downloads music because they mean something to her, and it is easily accessible.

From her perspective, P2P networks offer an easy way to download music. She can also see what others have in their library, so it is easy to download similar music tastes without having to "try" or "preview" them. Many of my friends still share albums - "this album is great, you gotta listen to this." This is just an onlilne form of such recommendations.

I think you should setup guidelines so that she pays for the albums that she likes. If you download Kanye West or Tim McGraw and you like it, you have to buy the album. Use it as a NetFlix for her music activities, rather than an all-encompassing blanket for moral weakness. And you should really cut out the episode-downloading activity if you really want to prove your point.

[Dork.]

I don't think you should get into an argument over "grey areas" with teenagers, especially exceptionally bright ones. Teenagers need rules in black-and-white, because they're still learning how to apply their judgement skills, and will freqently apply them incorrectly without external help. You may see the difference between dowloading content that was broadcast over-the-air, and downloading content that wasn't. But she doesn't see things that way yet. While she is probably interested in doing what is right, she will try and bend what she thinks is "right" to her advantage. This is no knock against your daughter in particular, I just think that bright teenagers are especially prone to try and "game the system" to their advantage, and they conviently ignore things which contradict their view of the world. (Some never grow out of that...) And given any justification for downloading even a little bit of content, she'll bust that wide open into a justification that all content should be downloaded, all the time.

I'm of the opinion that you can always tighten up the rules, but make sure they apply equally to everyone in the house. Get rid of those few episodes you downloaded (or purchase them, this iTMS thing is very timely, huh?), and make a big show out if it. Give her "amnesty" if she either erases or buys all the stuff she downloads. And make getting any media of dubious origin off the Internet off-limits in your house. That shifts the conversation from "Is it a good thing or not" to "whether or not other people are doing it, we don't." and turns a legal grey-area into a parentally-enforced rule. Block the file-sharing ports at your router also, and show her that they're blocked for you as well as her. And hope she's too young to know about Usenet.

You might also want to find some of the letters that the RIAA has been sending out to file swappers (I'm sure you can find copies online), perferably ones that suggest an extortion... er... settlement offer right in the letter. This will reinforce that the Internet is not anonynous, and that people have gotten caught doing just what she is doing. Lots of times, it's the threat of getting caught that will deter these bright young people.

My daughter is only a year old. I shudder to think what issues I might have to deal with in 10 or 15 years, since she'll be exceptionally bright, too! (as long as she takes after her mother)....

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by Dork.

I don't think you should get into an argument over "grey areas" with teenagers, especially exceptionally bright ones. Teenagers need rules in black-and-white, because they're still learning how to apply their judgement skills, and will freqently apply them incorrectly without external help. You may see the difference between dowloading content that was broadcast over-the-air, and downloading content that wasn't.

Ever heard of FM radio? I hear they play music over the airwaves you don't have to pay for. Maybe by downloading music I'm just 'time shifting' music that was broadcast on the Fm frequencies, that I forgot to tape.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by bad_quote

Ever heard of FM radio? I hear they play music over the airwaves you don't have to pay for. Maybe by downloading music I'm just 'time shifting' music that was broadcast on the Fm frequencies, that I forgot to tape.

Originally Posted by Dork.

I just think that bright teenagers are especially prone to try and "game the system" to their advantage, and they conviently ignore things which contradict their view of the world. (Some never grow out of that...)

Originally Posted by MacNN Hamster

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by Walker

I know that downloading TV shows is a legal grey area, but I do think that I'm not doing anything different than what a person does when they record a TV show with a VCR. ln addition, the USA is about 5 months ahead of Australia for airing new episodes (the new season started in the USA 3 weeks ago, but doesn't start in Australia until next February I think). Not knowing the iTMS was going to start carrying "lost" tv episodes for download, I have downloaded 1st 3 episodes of the 2nd "lost" season. I don't feel that downloading free-over-air TV shows is the immoral equivalent of downloading copywrited music. Maybe I'm wrong.

The area is really only as grey as that of music-downloading. TV shows and stations make money from your viewing of commercials, so unless you're downloading the shows with commercials intact, you're actions are just as illegal as those of your daughter.

Have I lost all my credibility with my kids on this issue because I've downloaded a few episodes of the "lost" tv series? They know I've downloaded these shows, and tonight my daughter used this information against me during our discussion on illegally downloading music. She stated that if I believed it was ok to download the TV shows, then I should believe downloading music and not paying for it is ok also.

Is her argument valid?

Valid enough; though you can TiVo and tape TV shows and skip the commercials, they're still there and you're not distributing the show by taping it. If you're using Bit Torrent, however, to download these shows, then you're distributing them, and you're distributing them sans commercials.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Mooga2

I think you should setup guidelines so that she pays for the albums that she likes.

It seems you and I disagree over whether it's okay to download something and then decide whether you want to buy it. However, I don't see why you would let your daughter expose you to risk of legal action from the RIAA. The RIAA isn't going to care that you bought them later when they're asking for a $10K settlement.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

TV shows and stations make money from your viewing of commercials, so unless you're downloading the shows with commercials intact, you're actions are just as illegal as those of your daughter.

It's illegal regardless of whether the commercials are included.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

It's illegal regardless of whether the commercials are included.

Still illegal, but with much more legal leverage if brought to court.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by bad_quote

By that rational, she's simply time shifting the media she can rent at a public library. Download whatever songs are available at the library, afterall, you could just check them out FREE, and listen to them, but this way it keeps the copies at the library.

You have a point.

Oh... and it's rationale, not rational.

[cpt kangarooski]

Walker--

Now comes the tricky part and I'm sure some of you will think I'm hypocritical. I have downloaded a limited number of TV shows. Here's the situation: On January 1st 2005, My family moved from South Dakota to Australia for a one year. Whilst here in Australia, there have been times I've missed the lost episodes and forgotten to set the VCR to record. I know that downloading TV shows is a legal grey area, but I do think that I'm not doing anything different than what a person does when they record a TV show with a VCR. ln addition, the USA is about 5 months ahead of Australia for airing new episodes (the new season started in the USA 3 weeks ago, but doesn't start in Australia until next February I think). Not knowing the iTMS was going to start carrying "lost" tv episodes for download, I have downloaded 1st 3 episodes of the 2nd "lost" season.

Downloading TV is not a legal grey area. It's prima facie illegal in the US and probably in Australia. There _might_ be a defense for it in the US (IIRC there is not in Oz) but in all honestly, I doubt that it would work. It is particularly distinguishable, given that you're ahead of the release schedule.

But as for morality, who cares? I don't think that morality and copyright have anything to do with one another, although to the extent that they do, I think that pirates (who seek to enjoy works, who create copies of works, who are useful for the long-term preservation of works, who disseminate works broadly and cheaply) are more moral than copyright holders.

Stradlater--

The area is really only as grey as that of music-downloading. TV shows and stations make money from your viewing of commercials, so unless you're downloading the shows with commercials intact, you're actions are just as illegal as those of your daughter.

No, that's entirely irrelevant, and provides no 'leverage' whatsoever.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

The RIAA isn't going to care that you bought them later when they're asking for a $10K settlement.

Oh wtf ever. I have a friend who downloaded 25 gigs of music in 2 weeks, and he has probably about 80-100 gigs of music in total. He downloads like a madman, and has for years. The RIAA hasn't bothered him one bit.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Walker

My daughter is very smart (straight A student). She's rarely gotten into serious trouble and I'm proud of her in more ways than I can count. However, there is one specific problem that I have with how she thinks. Tonight we got into an argument about illegally downloading music from the internet (I'm totally against it, she's for it). I'm not a perfect parent, but like most parents I've tried to set a good example with decision making. When the iTunes music store opened it was easy to set an expectation from all 3 of my kids that they should not illegally download music ($.99 a track from the iTunes store is very cheap!). My wife and & work hard and make good money and my kids don't go without anything. I truly believe that illegally downloading music is the equivalent of shoplifting from a CD store and I've done a good job communicating with my kids about why I feel this way. I also feel I've set a good example as my purchased music playlist is at a 227 count (which is a lot when I've purchase mainly 1 track at a time) and I don't illegally download music.

Ok, it goes like this:
Downloading music is not the same as shoplifting; you're doing it from the privacy of your home, and no store is losing money. Only the artist, the record companies, and the online third-party (Napster, iTMS, Yahoo! Music, etc) is losing money. Most of the money goes to the assholes at the record studio and the artist makes little money off of it. Still, some of the money goes to the artist, who is really the only one that deserves it.

Downloading music that is not free and not paying for it is "wrong". However, people still do it, and there are a lot worse things your daughter could be doing.

The thing is, is that in life what's "right universally" is not always clear, and it does not always correspond with what the government says is right. In some governments, your daughters actions would be perfectly legal.

Now, it's time to step back and think about this entire situation objectively. If your daughter downloads this music "illegally", how much money will the artists lose? Probably somewhere in the area of $10 for every couple hundred songs she downloads. Artists make a lot of money from live concerts.

So, essentially, what she is doing is wrong, but not as wrong as shooting someone's brains out. If you have serious moral issues with her actions, I suggest that you should agree to pay for whatever music she wants, since it doesn't sound like she has a job. If the music she wants is not to be found on the iTMS, either buy her the CD, or let her pirate it.

My 2 cents.

[sek929]

Downloading a CD is not the same as physically stealing one.

That argument is friggin stupid.

People who still dowload music most likely just get pop top 40 crap anyways so who cares.

[buffalolee]

Taping FM radio: Time shifting
Taping programs with your VCR, DVD-R, etc: Time shifting
Downloading music without the original: Copyright infringement
Downloading TV shows without owning the original: Copyright infringement

How to teach a lesson:
Have your daughter create poetry, music, or some artistic piece. Have her try to sell it for $1. Then you make a free digital copy over the Internet for people to take.

Solution to your dilemma:
Admit your mistake and apologize. Punish yourself and her for stealing (community service, it will be a "fun" punishment).

How to get out of the punishment:
Purchase the original.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by buffalolee

Taping programs with your VCR, DVD-R, etc: Time shifting
Downloading TV shows without owning the original: Copyright infringement

I really fail to see the difference between those two. How is downloading a show after it aired not time shifting ? It's exactly the same.

[wataru]

Originally Posted by sek929

Downloading a CD is not the same as physically stealing one.

That argument is friggin stupid.

Exactly The original poster is just plain wrong about downloading music being equivalent to shoplifting. It's copyright infringement; nothing more. No deprivation of property = not theft. And no, you can't claim that it's deprivation of profits from sale because the sale is not guaranteed.

[cpt kangarooski]

buffalolee--

Taping FM radio: Time shifting
Taping programs with your VCR, DVD-R, etc: Time shifting
Downloading music without the original: Copyright infringement
Downloading TV shows without owning the original: Copyright infringement

Actually, all of those are infringing (although some radio taping may be nonactionable). Time shifting is only noninfringing where it is a fair use, and there is no guarantee that all of it is. The fair use analysis can be just as easily applied to downloading. The results may vary, but again, there's no guarantee. Things aren't quite as cut and dried as you're making them out to be.

Of course, the OP is in Australia, and IIRC, everything you mentioned is illegal there.

How to teach a lesson:
Have your daughter create poetry, music, or some artistic piece. Have her try to sell it for $1. Then you make a free digital copy over the Internet for people to take.

How does that impart a lesson? You'd be making her sell it, but what if she's actually fine with people getting it for free?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I really fail to see the difference between those two. How is downloading a show after it aired not time shifting ? It's exactly the same.

How is it exactly the same? In one case, you made a recording for yourself. In the other case, someone made a recording for 3.2 million other people.

The problem with downloading is that is up to the copyright holder to grant you the rights to do something with their work. Since they didn't, you can't do it. It doesn't matter that you think it's no big deal or that you don't perceive any difference.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by wataru

Exactly The original poster is just plain wrong about downloading music being equivalent to shoplifting. It's copyright infringement; nothing more. No deprivation of property = not theft. And no, you can't claim that it's deprivation of profits from sale because the sale is not guaranteed.

You are taking possession of something without paying for it when you should be paying for it. From the standpoint of your involvement, it is equivalent to stealing. You get something you should have paid for without paying for it. From the standpoint of the original owner, it is not equivalent to stealing because they have not lost anything tangible. Call it whatever you want. It's illegal and immoral.

Why do you really care if it's stealing, theft or copyright infringment? It's still not legal and it's still not right. Heck, with theft, you could get off with community service; with copyright infringement, you are much worse off.

[cpt kangarooski]

In one case, you made a recording for yourself. In the other case, someone made a recording for 3.2 million other people.

Downloading is still only making a copy for yourself. Uploading is when you are distributing it to others. They're different things.

The problem with downloading is that is up to the copyright holder to grant you the rights to do something with their work.

Not to do just anything. Copyright holders only have rights for a few specific things. And even then, they're limited further, because even in those specific areas, you might still be allowed to act without their permission.

For example, recording broadcast TV with a VCR is the making of a copy, and copyright holders get to control whether you can make a copy. But it is often a fair use, which means that the law removes their control over who gets to do otherwise illegal things, in certain situations.

[ReggieX]

Originally Posted by sek929

People who still dowload music most likely just get pop top 40 crap anyways so who cares.

Not even close, man.

[TheJoshu]

I'm confused. Is the legality of something determined by whether or not it is alternatively available on the iTMS?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by TheJoshu

I'm confused. Is the legality of something determined by whether or not it is alternatively available on the iTMS?

No, it's determined by:

a) whether or not you want it
b) whether or not you think the price is reasonable
c) whether or not it's "top 40" stuff
d) whether or not all the money would go to scumbags

It's a complicated system, but it boils down to take whatever you want and make up an excuse for it later.

[Y3a]

IF you have to ask...you're an -----
SURE IT'S WRONG..
WHAT PART OF STEALING DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???

Have your ----- daughter create something with the intentions of making money with an idea
(that IS if she is creative, which I doubt)
and then YOU give it away to everybody and
explain that it's like downloading music.

[Chuckit]

Downloading is not equivalent to shoplifting. With shoplifting, they have actually lost something. With downloading, they have simply not gained something. This is indisputable.

As for the morality, I would consider whether it's a battle worth fighting. If she's massively downloading rather than buying, that's one thing. If she's casually downloading a couple of tunes rather than taping them off the radio, I think you'd do better to pick your battles, because it's really not particularly worse than downloading some TV episodes so you don't have to wait for the DVDs to watch them.

[typoon]

You might be able to use an example of say she does some work but one of her "friends" uses what she did without asking ot giving her any recognition for it but took all th credit for it like she did all the work. ASk her how she would feel about that? That is similar to stealing music. You could also say that yes while downloading TV episodes is stealing and that now they are available legally you will be getting them legally and not stealing anymore because stealing them is wrong.

[Ratm]

Walker

Like my father always said "You do as I say, not as I do". It sounds mean but he was right. You are a grown man and what you do is none of their business, so act like it. You treat them as if they were adults. They most certainly are not. Stop trying to be the best friend and be their parent. There is no debate over this, it is illegal and wrong. So put an end to it now! Can you? Or do your children dictate the rules in the house.

I'm not saying you should become a total asshole but this approach of asking them what they think--- when it's obvious and they know it's not right but do it anyways because the can't really grasp the situation and the implications of their actions--- on these kinds of issues is ridiculous. It's up to you to guide them in this life until they are able to do it themselves.

Explain to them your feelings on this issue and that there is no room for debate. Go with them and find all the illegal files that they have on disk and on the computer and in front of them erase and throw away all that they have. After that tell them that you will work something out with them that will help them regain their music collection but this time legally. They could preform chores around the house or maintain good grades at school. You get the idea.

You're asking a teenager to do something that they obviously can't do for themselves at the moment. And they shouldn't, not entirely . That's your job as a parent and in my opinion you are failing them.

Trust me, they will thank you later. They'll hate you now but will thank you later. This is coming from a guy who had parents that in my later part of my teens, failed to do what was needed. I lacked discipline at the most critical point in my life and paid the consequences. I regret it all and wished they would have been more present in my life in that time.

I never did drugs or shoplifted --- well, there was that one time we stuffed cold-cuts down our pants with a bunch of my friends but that's it.

[Eug Wanker]

Heh. The GF of a friend of mine never saw the incongruity of being willing to splurge on a Mercedes-Benz for her car, while never paying a cent for music. She was totally shocked that I actually bought CDs.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by ReggieX

Not even close, man.

In my experience yes.

Those who listen to anything non-mainstream all buy CDs, those that download only use it to get the latest hit single by some godawful pop garbage group.

[Ratm]

Eug, that's a scary but funny thought. lol

[Monique]

Downloading anything is wrong; there is no gray areas.

You are stealing things that do not belong to you and you are too cheap to pay for it. So you have to wait one week or so to watch an episode of your favorite show.

Once I was in London and went to see the Phantom of the Opera and one spoil brat was recording it I just told her that if she did not stop I would call the police and she did.

Today's children are so blase about what is legal or not or what is right or not; just wonder where they take it from.

You want to convince your daughter just download her private thoughts from the computer or make a copy and tell her since she thinks it is ok to steal it is ok for you to steal from her.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Monique

Today's children are so blase about what is legal or not or what is right or not; just wonder where they take it from.

You want to convince your daughter just download her private thoughts from the computer or make a copy and tell her since she thinks it is ok to steal it is ok for you to steal from her.

Thats an awful way of teaching her.

The government tells me pot is wrong and illegal and I think that is BS to.

Do you always look to the laws to tell you what is right?

[deej5871]

Originally Posted by Walker

My daughter is very smart (straight A student). She's rarely gotten into serious trouble and I'm proud of her in more ways than I can count.

When the iTunes music store opened it was easy to set an expectation from all 3 of my kids that they should not illegally download music ($.99 a track from the iTunes store is very cheap!). My wife and & work hard and make good money and my kids don't go without anything.

Then why not give her an allowance of songs she can download on iTMS (assuming she doesn't have one already; if she does and still pirates then she's in the wrong)? If she gets good grades she deserves some kind of reward. How else can she purchase music legally without going to a store and getting a CD? She's not 18 and can't get a credit card (unless she is...you say teenage which could be 18 I suppose but I'm assuming she's younger) so she can't make her own Music Store account to buy her music.

[bad_quote]

Originally Posted by sek929

Do you always look to the laws to tell you what is right?

Stupid people need guidance.