[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Chaos Theory 

You obviously aren't aware of the Ugly Americans who visit a different country and expect to be spoken to in Merican or are insulted.

A husband and wife from Texas are in Paris taking pictures of the Eifel Tower. Both are, you know, kinda overweight. Husband says to his wife, "You know hunnybuns, there sure are a lot of furners in this place. They're all speaking the same weird language."

Wife says, "I don't know how they cain understand each other, I think it's very rude of them to speak so we cain't understand them."

You remind me of someone.

[Randman]

Different strokes for different folks but one of the best things for me while living abroad was the chance to learn about different cultures and try and pick up more languages.

English is my main, and I know Spanish pretty well but it was great trying to learn Mandarin. And during my travels, I picked up enough German and French to get around Europe comfortably and some Thai, Japanese and Malay as well.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Why is that a shame? Is there something virtuous about being a polyglot?

Yes.
You understand other peoples and cultures better as well as your own. Understanding how idioms differ, for example, gives you an idea if you are culturally closer compared to other languages or not.

Plus, like any skill (in sports, science, etc.), you come to enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It would be far more efficient to make everybody learn English (this is kind of similar to what's happening anyway) than for every English speaker to learn a randomly selected foreign language.

… or to make the people learn Spanish if they are the minority
Spanish is hardly randomly selected in many parts of the US. This attitude works if you're in a comfortable minority, but wreaks havoc if you're not a majority anymore. Living together has always been more peaceful if both sides learned the languages of the other (there are many examples in Europe, e. g. Danzig/Gdansk before WW2).

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I think you better start coming up with some definitions so that we are on the same page. What is political insanity, and does simply having a different opinion than you make you insane?

You can't see it, Bess, because you're in that nice little Dem bubble.

Personally I hope Obama does get in - just so he can make Carter look good.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Ah, you're the kind of guy who is unable to learn anything past high school. Or is it jr. high?

What a cop out.

My wife learned German in her last two years of high school. And after 18 years without daily, or even yearly practice, she can still have a light conversation in German. I took one year of French in high school and I can still read or get the gist of news articles in french.

I went to five high schools by the end of my sophomore year. Often times moving in the middle of semester. It makes it severely difficult when the lesson plans jump all over the place.

I know a little bit of Spanish, but barely enough to get by. I plan on taking classes when college starts back up next month.

[Randman]

Originally Posted by Uncle Doof 

Personally I hope Obama does get in - just so he can make Carter look good.

Not sure that's possible. Even making Whoopi Goldberg teh prez might not do it.

[paul w]

If only I had a nickel for all the Americans who insist they know or speak or are even fluent in a certain language when in reality they're totally full of it. Learning a foreign language - really learning it and using it in all kinds of different situations - is an exercise in humility.

And those who really take it seriously are always ever so painfully aware of their limitations.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by paul w 

If only I had a nickel for all the Americans who insist they know or speak or are even fluent in a certain language when in reality they're totally full of it. Learning a foreign language - really learning it and using it in all kinds of different situations - is an exercise in humility.

And those who really take it seriously are always ever so painfully aware of their limitations.

And if I had a nickel for every condescending non-American...

[paul w]

One can't criticize perceived flaws in one's fellow citizens people without coming across as condescending? We all have things we can improve and I can happen to have a lot of experience dealing with Americans in a foreign language environment. Thought I'd share.

Are we really that insecure?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by paul w 

If only I had a nickel for all the Americans who insist they know or speak or are even fluent in a certain language when in reality they're totally full of it. Learning a foreign language - really learning it and using it in all kinds of different situations - is an exercise in humility.

And those who really take it seriously are always ever so painfully aware of their limitations.

It's not just Americans. No matter what country they're in, I find most people who "speak" a foreign language are actually leaving out "poorly."

[paul w]

you're right, of course. languages are hard when they're not mother tongue. Humbling experience.

I dunno, I was just speaking from experience. Why the hell would someone risk putting down a language as spoken fluently, or conversationally on their resume when it's not the case. It makes for some really uncomfortable moment. And it happens *all* the time.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by paul w 

One can't criticize perceived flaws in one's fellow citizens people without coming across as condescending? We all have things we can improve and I can happen to have a lot of experience dealing with Americans in a foreign language environment. Thought I'd share.

Are we really that insecure?

So, you're an American? Complaining about Americans not speaking a foreign language and when they do, you are complaining that they think they are speaking it well when in fact they are not? Do I understand you correctly?

To be a bit nitpicky, your sentence structure is wrong and you have exhibited poor grammar.

A bit condescending, yup!

[paul w]

I'm sorry, why do I get the impression you're looking to pick a fight? Did I offend you in some way?

Show me where I complained about Americans NOT speaking a foreign language. That is of course, our right. You cannot impose something people don't want or need. My beef was regarding those who (and really this is my experience, in the workplace so you can choose to believe it or not) misrepresent their command of foreign languages. I find this happens a lot with Americans. I probably did as much back when I thought I spoke Spanish in high school.

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by paul w 

My beef was regarding those who (and really this is my experience, in the workplace so you can choose to believe it or not) misrepresent their command of foreign languages. I find this happens a lot with Americans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4167204.stm

A quarter of 3,000 CVs submitted with job applications in 2004 had a lie in them, says employee screening firm Risk Advisory Group

It's not just Americans. And it's not just languages.
The way of the World, I'm afraid.

[besson3c]

Maybe Abe = Dubya?

[Railroader]

Besson3c, are you wearing a skirt?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by paul w 

I'm sorry, why do I get the impression you're looking to pick a fight? Did I offend you in some way?

Show me where I complained about Americans NOT speaking a foreign language. That is of course, our right. You cannot impose something people don't want or need. My beef was regarding those who (and really this is my experience, in the workplace so you can choose to believe it or not) misrepresent their command of foreign languages. I find this happens a lot with Americans. I probably did as much back when I thought I spoke Spanish in high school.

I am not picking a fight. I am trying to point out the ignorance in your statement.

And when you say "Americans", are you saying this doesn't happen with people from other countries? and you are surprised that people misrepresent themselves when trying to get a job?!?! Seriously, this surprises you?

[paul w]

Not just in job settings, that's just when it's most blatantly pathetic (and of course we all lie and exaggerate on resumes). But my initial comment was it was something I generally noticed in Americans.

There is no ignorance, as I'm asserting an observation of my own, based on years and years abroad in a host of different countries. Let me put it this way - we have the good fortune to be from a developed nation withy a high standard of living and educational resources. Among like countries, mostly European, but you could throw others like Japan, a few South Americans etc, educated non-Americans have been, in my experience, by FAR more humble about their language abilities while at the same time being MUCH more proficient. The two may or may not be related, but I sometimes find our lack of humility about our ignorance a bit galling.


I just think we as Americans have some kind of complex about language. Maybe we inherited it from the Brits...

[tie]

Hmm, the thread title was rather scary if equality is transitive.

On the actual subject of the thread, I have to agree with subego. Europeans know lots of languages because they have to. Most Americans probably only go to Europe every two or three years, and it is pretty easy to get around without knowing the local language. Say Americans all knew French and German. What language would we speak when we traveled to Italy? English. When we traveled to Japan? English. To Israel or China? English. It is only necessary to know the language if you are moving somewhere (and even for study abroad, many graduate classes are being taught in English nowadays). Almost all scientific publications are in English.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg

I don't follow how it's accommodating a disadvantageous position. We should just have the right to force everyone to communicate like us? Wouldn't it often be more efficient and effective to meet others halfway? Is it possible we could actually be more productive that way?

What does that even mean? There are no "halfway" languages. It is much more efficient that everyone standardizes on one language, and English is that language. By far the best language for international communication now is English, so that is what we should focus on. It happens that that's also the language everybody here already uses, that's just an extra advantage for us.

We've been lazy with respect to making an effort to communicate with others on common terms.

English is communicating on common terms.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by tie 

What language would we speak when we traveled to Italy? English.

How about French or Spanish? Spanish is pretty close, for instance, if you say something in Spanish, they will be able figure out the meaning (unless you're saying something really complex).

Originally Posted by tie 

It is only necessary to know the language if you are moving somewhere (and even for study abroad, many graduate classes are being taught in English nowadays).

No, having some ability in a local language is very useful. My French is really bad, but (I'm actually typing this reply from my room in Luminy near Marseille), but I can do the basics: talk to the ladies in the office, ask for directions, make humble attempts at humor, they definitely appreciate it.

Originally Posted by tie 

Almost all scientific publications are in English.

You're correct about scientific publications being mostly in English.

Originally Posted by tie 

What does that even mean? There are no "halfway" languages. It is much more efficient that everyone standardizes on one language, and English is that language.

Not really. There are many local concepts or nuances you have in other languages you cannot translate. Also, who says, the standard is going to be English, what about Spanish? Or Mandarin?

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by tie 

What does that even mean? There are no "halfway" languages.

That's quite a literal take, n'est ce pas? Halfway could just mean having enough of a command of a language, and enough humility about it, to be able to communicate with someone using nuances they're familiar with. And you could expect the same in return. It could also mean, for a group, having the courtesy to bring in a few people who are fluent in the language of the group you're trying to communicate with. That puts more value on multilingual skills.

It is much more efficient that everyone standardizes on one language, and English is that language. By far the best language for international communication now is English, so that is what we should focus on. It happens that that's also the language everybody here already uses, that's just an extra advantage for us.

Who says English is always going to be that language? It's true that it's the most frequent "common ground" right now. You'd see that change quickly if it became more beneficial to folks to learn Mandarin instead.

What makes you think you can force people in Italy to learn English, any more than someone should force you to learn Italian? That is exactly the type of ignorance and lack of humility that others observe.

As I've stated in this thread, I think we're going to see multilingual skills become more valuable for Americans. Like it or not, not everyone speaks English, and being able to communicate in different ways opens more doors.

English is communicating on common terms.

So is Spanish. So is Mandarin. So is Morse Code. So is C++.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Also, who says, the standard is going to be English, what about Spanish? Or Mandarin?

What about Spanish and Mandarin? What fields are they the standard in? Fields with standard languages have generally standardized on English as far as I am aware, and it is the most widely spoken language in the world. There's no hope of everybody standardizing on one language, but if they were going to, I can't see any argument for it being a language other than English.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

There's no hope of everybody standardizing on one language

Exactly.

[tie]

English already is entrenched as the standard language. Maybe that will change someday, but there is a huge network effect from sharing a common language so it is difficult to change. (Sort of like Windows versus Mac, except nowadays people can work together using any OS because of standards. Maybe say Windows versus BeOS, or IP versus IPv9.)

What makes you think you can force people in Italy to learn English, any more than someone should force you to learn Italian? That is exactly the type of ignorance and lack of humility that others observe.

Italian isn't even close to being a standard language, and has no hope to rivaling English ever. I'm not going to force anybody to learn a language. But if an Italian wants to communicate with the rest of the world, for example to attend scientific talks or read or write scientific papers, then he'd better learn English. I can't see how humility comes into this at all.

Who says English is always going to be that language? It's true that it's the most frequent "common ground" right now. You'd see that change quickly if it became more beneficial to folks to learn Mandarin instead.

Perhaps Mandarin could eventually surpass the network effect of English, because there are so many Chinese, but I'd bet against it, because English is easier to learn and already has status as an international standard. Also, standards don't change quickly.

[TETENAL]

The standard language has changed before, it will change again. Who cares.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by tie 

Italian isn't even close to being a standard language, and has no hope to rivaling English ever. I'm not going to force anybody to learn a language. But if an Italian wants to communicate with the rest of the world, for example to attend scientific talks or read or write scientific papers, then he'd better learn English. I can't see how humility comes into this at all.

Exactly - and if you want to broaden your ability to communicate to a significantly wider audience than the one you have, you might want to think about learning Spanish or Mandarin. Want to do business in China? You have a competitive advantage if you can speak their language and thus communicate more broadly. Want to market to the growing Latino population in the US? Same goes for Spanish. I really don't see a difference. English is the 'standard' right now in some areas. So what? With humility comes an ability to see beyond that.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by tie 

Italian isn't even close to being a standard language

Sure it is - it's the standard language for music. And it's been that way since long before English was widely used for anything (centuries, in fact).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Sure it is - it's the standard language for music. And it's been that way since long before English was widely used for anything (centuries, in fact).

I have friends who went to music school, and they didn't have to write papers in Italian. If you mean lots of musical terms came from Italian, sure but that's a pretty small claim to fame. I guess it's also the standard language of delicious-but-high-carb food.

[tie]

Okay, Creep, I don't disagree with any of that, but none of it is worth changing education policy. I think English is the most important language globally and that we should focus our education on it. There's no shortage of Spanish speakers in the US. Of course students should learn another language, but I don't think there is any reason to worry about it in particular. I think English, math and science are higher educational priorities.

[CreepDogg]

That's fine, my point, and I think Obama's too, is that multilingual skills are moving up the priority scale. Right now, most folks don't get an opportunity to study another language until the high school level. Many studies have shown that it's much easier to pick up multilingual skills at younger ages - I wouldn't look for sea change in educational policy, but I do think it would be worth exploring developing language skills earlier.

[OreoCookie]

A few decades ago, up until the 1930s, German was one of the standard languages in science (e. g. chemistry, physics, math) as many major contributions came from German-speaking countries. As America's significance (relative to other countries) will decrease this century (just a matter of sheer numbers), other languages will become more important.

If you have never learnt another foreign language, you will have problems learning another. Also, it seems quite likely that in some parts of the US, English won't be the language spoken by the majority anymore. It's pointless to try and impose a standard language different from the majority's unless you treat them on an equal footing -- which means latinos shouldn't just learn English, but you should learn some Spanish. It's quite simple really.

If you want to see what happens when people don't respect each other's languages, have a look at Belgium, the government went through a major crisis after the last election (rather: the lack of government was the crisis), partly because they haven't come to terms with the fact that they have different languages, but people from the other parts are not so keen on speaking the other/being courteous.

[UnixMac]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Some people are making a big deal out of Obama's remarks about our children needing to speak Spanish. I really don't have an opinion on the content itself; I'm working on becoming bilingual myself. That's not the reason I'm posting this.

I think Obama just sounds a bit "familiar" in this video. This is the first time that I've heard him sound so unpolished and unenthusiastic...

I'm trying to connect your thread title with your post... help me out.

btw.. Obama is not perfect in my view, but he's a whole lot better than GW on the issues that I'm voting on this election. Namely, the war and the economy.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by tie 

Okay, Creep, I don't disagree with any of that, but none of it is worth changing education policy.

Yes.
In every other country I've been to, it's mandatory to learn another language. So you have native language + math + foreign language + science as basic skill set.

[UnixMac]

It's a disgrace how uneducated we Americans are... traveling the world, I've come to realize how lucky (dumb luck) we are to be the top nation in the world, we really don't deserve it when you really think about it.

Just go on youtube and type in "Stupid American(s)" and you'll see some REALLY embarrassing video.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by UnixMac 

It's a disgrace how uneducated we Americans are... traveling the world, I've come to realize how lucky (dumb luck) we are to be the top nation in the world, we really don't deserve it when you really think about it.

Just go on youtube and type in "Stupid American(s)" and you'll see some REALLY embarrassing video.

I think your perceptions are easily influenced. We're not perfect, but neither is anybody else. Lots of people in lots of countries do lots of stupid things. The reason America dominated the 20th century is that it contributed a lot in pretty much every significant way possible. Science, technology, business, entertainment, international relations — the list goes on and on. You can thank America for the network on which you're posting this criticism.

(And before anybody feels the need to go out and make some kind of doltish knee-jerk reaction, I'm not saying no other countries did anything. I'm just saying that it's not fair to characterize America as a bunch of stupid people who somehow blundered into success while the rest of the world is a bunch of freakin' Buddhas who really know what's good for us. Everybody has their good and bad moments.)

[UnixMac]

Chuck, it's a far cry from what I'm saying for you to say that I'm calling the rest of the world perfect.. in my book, the last perfect man was born 2000 years ago...

We're just not anywhere near as educated as a people as the average EU resident or other 1st world nation citizen. When you objectively look at those great accomplishments of Americans, in many cases (certainly in hi-tech today), it's foreign born Americans (those educated over seas) that are behind them.

On a more political level.. the average American has a poor grasp of geography, and in the case of this war in Iraq, can't tell you who is who, and what is what.. which is why it's so easy for a guy like GW to dupe is into supporting a "war on terror" as this blanket war against, Islam, Arabs, and Persians.. in reality, the Middle East is more complex than Europe and anything but monolithic, yet the average American simply can't follow the script.

[paul w]

I generally agree with UnixMac. There are loads of well educated Americans. At the top of the scale we're as good as anyone. The average American is rather uniformed about the outside world compared others in the world.

How many times have I heard "you don't know who so and so is? We know all about your country and your government and you don't even know the slightest thing about ours." It's embarrassing and it's true.

[UnixMac]

Originally Posted by paul w 

How many times have I heard "you don't know who so and so is? We know all about your country and your government and you don't even know the slightest thing about ours." It's embarrassing and it's true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuKMtLOKG8k

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by UnixMac 

We're just not anywhere near as educated as a people as the average EU resident or other 1st world nation citizen. When you objectively look at those great accomplishments of Americans, in many cases (certainly in hi-tech today), it's foreign born Americans (those educated over seas) that are behind them.

It's true that foreigners have contributed a lot here, but seems kind of beside the point to me. They were still Americans, and obviously these smart people found America to be a good place for them.

And that's hardly universally true. I mean, let's look at the top computer technology companies today — Microsoft, Google, Apple and Intel. Out of all these companies' founders, the only foreigner is Sergey Brin, cofounder of Google. I don't think we're failing too badly there.

Originally Posted by UnixMac 

On a more political level.. the average American has a poor grasp of geography, and in the case of this war in Iraq, can't tell you who is who, and what is what.. which is why it's so easy for a guy like GW to dupe is into supporting a "war on terror" as this blanket war against, Islam, Arabs, and Persians.. in reality, the Middle East is more complex than Europe and anything but monolithic, yet the average American simply can't follow the script.

That's true, but do people in other countries really have that much better of a grasp in general? I mean, obviously the ones who talk about it do, but do you really suppose you could walk into a bar in England and go, "Hey, explain the history of the Sunnis and Shi'ites and their relevance to the geopolitical situation today," and expect a reasonable answer?

[UnixMac]

I'm just making the point.. that "in general" we're not where we should be, and the fact is, our public schools are the single biggest reason why. In England, the requirements to graduate are far higher, and if one is indeed dumb, he simply isn't granted "graduated status" as is the case here.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I can't wait to see what he speaks like when he's very tired from the rigors of office if he gets elected.

I'm not sure, but I imagine that campaigning to be president is more work than being president.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It's true that foreigners have contributed a lot here, but seems kind of beside the point to me. They were still Americans, and obviously these smart people found America to be a good place for them.

And that's hardly universally true. I mean, let's look at the top computer technology companies today — Microsoft, Google, Apple and Intel. Out of all these companies' founders, the only foreigner is Sergey Brin, cofounder of Google. I don't think we're failing too badly there.

Yeah, look at who works at the Apples and Googles, a significant share are foreigners. Not foreign-born Americans, but foreign foreigners. Ditto with universities, the further up you go, the larger the share of foreigners is.

[tie]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

A few decades ago, up until the 1930s, German was one of the standard languages in science (e. g. chemistry, physics, math) as many major contributions came from German-speaking countries. As America's significance (relative to other countries) will decrease this century (just a matter of sheer numbers), other languages will become more important.

I don't think the situation was the same, though, because there were other languages being used as well in science (French, Russian, English). Now that there is (just about) one major language used in science, it will be a lot harder to change. Even if the US continues to cut research spending (i.e., if McCain is elected), there isn't another language right now that could take the place of English.

Originally Posted by UnixMac

We're just not anywhere near as educated as a people as the average EU resident or other 1st world nation citizen. When you objectively look at those great accomplishments of Americans, in many cases (certainly in hi-tech today), it's foreign born Americans (those educated over seas) that are behind them.

I don't think this is true. They are mostly educated here, because we have the best higher-educational system. I also think it is a big mistake to confuse the education of "the average EU resident" or the average resident anywhere with that of the small minority of people who start high-technology companies.

[UnixMac]

Originally Posted by tie 

I don't think this is true. They are mostly educated here, because we have the best higher-educational system. I also think it is a big mistake to confuse the education of "the average EU resident" or the average resident anywhere with that of the small minority of people who start high-technology companies.

You will get no debate from me about this... our higher education system is by far the best in the world, sadly however, it's not what matters when you're forming the minds of the masses, who in the end are the electorate. My point is that while we've got some of the top minds in the world here, and as such come up with some of the best ideas, ON AVERAGE, we're a dumb people, with little knowledge of the world outside our borders (even our states), and this leads to idiots like GW Bush getting away with his "I'm the decider" foreign policy since most Americans really don't know to challenge the underlying BS behind it.

[subego]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

Absolutely. Where I live it's considerably more common than private schools. There's a lot of bureaucracy, but no worse than private schools. I went to public school in a nearby area. I turned out fine.

I know there are some areas where public schools aren't a viable option. I'm not in one of them.

See #1. I'm sure I could, but no need.

I'm presuming you have access to one of the only 80 or so elementary schools in the entire city that actually offer a second language to English speaking students, as opposed to the 250 or so who offer bilingual education. I live in Chicago, so you can name names.

Not that we shouldn't continue to put every single dollar (and more) that we're currently putting into bilingual education, but we're obviously putting way more money into it than we are teaching a second language to English speakers, and/or fixing other various holes in the system.

Completely separate from this, if your local school has a large bilingual education program, the whole idea behind it is to get people to stop speaking Spanish. If you imagine the size of your school's bilingual program will benefit your children's Spanish, that benefit will come at the expense of people who are for the most part broke, marginalized, expected to keep pace with an English speaking student, and learn another language with the fluency of a native.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

What I'm saying is multi-lingual skills are becoming more valued in the marketplace. If it's immigrants who have those skills, they will have the competitive advantage. Ironic, huh?

When I said I've seen Obama's thought process over and over again, this was what I was talking about. What's ironic is that it comes from someone who so desperately needs a tune-up in the humility department, like Obama. You don't seem to be similarly afflicted.

The error both of you are committing is an egregious undervaluation of yourself.

Your children have parents that are rich enough to send them to a private school. They don't need a competitive edge over immigrants, they already have a competitive edge. They're rich Americans. They're rich enough at least to be able to afford the luxury of being taught a language for which the primary use beyond education is catering to people who are broke and marginalized.

That's not a competitive edge, it's a humanitarian edge.

Just like knowing more than merci beaucoup is an effete snob edge.

For the record, I took French.

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I don't follow how it's accommodating a disadvantageous position. We should just have the right to force everyone to communicate like us?

You answer your own question:

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

If we do become economically lazy and lose our competitive advantage and China becomes economically more powerful, no one is going to roll over for us. They'll be beating down the doors to learn Mandarin. As will we.

Being economically lazy is a disadvantageous position. If we retain our competitive edge, the language thing will happen naturally, just as it would for China if we lose our edge.

This is why I'm grousing. A prediction that our situation (not needing to be multilingual) will change is the exact same thing as predicting we will be economically lazy. That's it. Kaput. The "American Century" really was just about a century.

You can see why I don't want our leaders to think that, n'est-ce pas?

[Uncle Doof]

Originally Posted by UnixMac 

In England, the requirements to graduate are far higher, and if one is indeed dumb, he simply isn't granted "graduated status" as is the case here.

Yeah... ...umm... ...sorry but that's a fail. That's utterly wrong. The dumbest of the dumb can "graduate" in the English education system.

[tie]

Originally Posted by UnixMac 

My point is that while we've got some of the top minds in the world here, and as such come up with some of the best ideas, ON AVERAGE, we're a dumb people, with little knowledge of the world outside our borders (even our states), and this leads to idiots like GW Bush getting away with his "I'm the decider" foreign policy since most Americans really don't know to challenge the underlying BS behind it.

In that case, what we need is better history education, which I don't think has even been mentioned yet.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by subego 

*snip*
His comparison between Europe and America is wholly unfair. Being multilingual in Europe is first and foremost a practical skill. This isn't at all the case in America. We already speak the, ahem... lingua franca. The nearest place an American is likely to immigrate that won't accommodate our language is 3,000 miles away, not 300 kilometers. This is apart from the fact that people generally want to immigrate here, not the other way around. Likewise, people want to learn our language to get our tourist money, which we spend freely.

Great post.

Personally, I'd like to see more Americans learn English effectively, then math and science skills, then critical thinking skills, then............. ............ and then move on to foreign languages.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It's not just Americans. No matter what country they're in, I find most people who "speak" a foreign language are actually leaving out "poorly."

Hrmm, I beg to differ. Take Germany for example. You start learning a first foreign language from 5th class on, typically English (in some federal states even from 4th class). In 7th class you get to choose a second language like French, Latin, Italian etc. And depending on your school type you can learn a third language from 10th class on. This is often supported by school exchanges, native speakers etc. In higher education you often have university courses in English language or also courses on internationalism itself.
Learning a foreign language here as actually a pretty broad basis.

I'd say part of Americans' problems there lies in their hysteric reactions and simplistic interconnections. When e.g. a U.S. administration gets into an argument with the French government, Idiot TV (Joe's education system) shows in all the country how other Joes destroy French cheese and wine to be better "Amaracan's", while so-called TV intellectuals debate about how much of an enemy France is. In such a climate inter-cultural strings, exchange and language interest will not be very deep-rooted.

Regards
PB.

[tie]

That's a good point, which I wasn't incorporating into my earlier posts. Learning other languages definitely does give you more of a respect for other cultures and countries, and may be more effective at this than history classes.