[Chongo]

Roland Burris presented his credentials this morning, and was turned away. What comes next is anyone's guess. This odd when Reid is willing to seat Stuart Little with all the shenanigans going on with that election.

[mduell]

His credentials are missing the signature of the secretary of state and the state seat, so the secretary of the senate refused him entry.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by mduell 

His credentials are missing the signature of the secretary of state and the state seat, so the secretary of the senate refused him entry.

That pertinent bit of info was not mentioned in the earlier news reports.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

That pertinent bit of info was not mentioned in the earlier news reports.

This comes at no surprise.

The procedure (required state signature) is long established.

Today's event was pretty much clear for more than a week when it was first reported that the Illinois Secratary of State wouldn't sign off.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

What comes next is anyone's guess.

Well, there are not that many options.

Here is WSJ's take on it, from Jan 3, 2009:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123094461932550595.html

-t

[stupendousman]

I don't get it.

How can they not seat him? Yes, I understand the "technicalities" that are being thrown in his way to stop him. But he's just be accused, and I've yet to see any evidence that he actually did anything illegal.

It's not illegal to talk about possibly doing something corrupt. For instance, you can't go to jail for saying you'd like to kill you're spouse. You have to actually DO SOMETHING corrupt. If he was SELLING the office, there would have to be someone he was selling it to, otherwise it's just a lot of stupid talk like saying I wished my wife dead after an argument.

Let's remember, this isn't the first time Patrick Fitzgerald has made phony claims and prosecutions in order to kneecap someone who was getting in the way of those in higher positions. He needs to put up, or shut up in regards to it was that Blago and/or his people actually approached to purchase the seat. Absent that, he doesn't have a case and there's no reason to stop Blago from doing the job he was elected to do. I'm pretty sure that Fitzgerald won't "put up" because that would likely cause other prominent Illinois democrat(s) to go to jail since they were in talks to engage in felonious actions and never bothered altering the authorities.

This smelled as a set-up from the get-go.

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I don't get it.

How can they not seat him? Yes, I understand the "technicalities" that are being thrown in his way to stop him. But he's just be accused, and I've yet to see any evidence that he actually did anything illegal.

It's not illegal to talk about possibly doing something corrupt. For instance, you can't go to jail for saying you'd like to kill you're spouse. You have to actually DO SOMETHING corrupt. If he was SELLING the office, there would have to be someone he was selling it to, otherwise it's just a lot of stupid talk like saying I wished my wife dead after an argument.

Let's remember, this isn't the first time Patrick Fitzgerald has made phony claims and prosecutions in order to kneecap someone who was getting in the way of those in higher positions. He needs to put up, or shut up in regards to it was that Blago and/or his people actually approached to purchase the seat. Absent that, he doesn't have a case and there's no reason to stop Blago from doing the job he was elected to do. I'm pretty sure that Fitzgerald won't "put up" because that would likely cause other prominent Illinois democrat(s) to go to jail since they were in talks to engage in felonious actions and never bothered altering the authorities.

This smelled as a set-up from the get-go.

Thats a really bad example that doesn't correlate to this. Just because you didn't actually commit murder, doesn't mean that you didn't do something illegal. If you buy a gun, draw a map of someone's route home, etc and someone finds out, chances are you aren't going to be free very long.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by TheMosco 

Thats a really bad example that doesn't correlate to this. Just because you didn't actually commit murder, doesn't mean that you didn't do something illegal. If you buy a gun, draw a map of someone's route home, etc and someone finds out, chances are you aren't going to be free very long.

If you buy a gun, draw a map, and then don't do anything else, chances are you you'll lead a long and productive life not behind bars.

All they have is "talk". No actual action that I can see, as that would require communicating to a third party. Talking isn't illegal. I can talk about any sort of illegal activity I MIGHT do - the first amendment pretty much protects that. It's not until you actually set out to do something illegal that it becomes illegal. In order to show that, you have to show that Blago or one of his people actually put into motion the plan. Without them letting a third party in on their desires, all you have is talk.

[Chongo]

I believe the probe was outed to protect Jesse Jackson Jr. Had it gone undisturbed, money would have changed hands; and regardless if Jr was directly involved,it would have ruined his political career.

[TheMosco]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

If you buy a gun, draw a map, and then don't do anything else, chances are you you'll lead a long and productive life not behind bars.

All they have is "talk". No actual action that I can see, as that would require communicating to a third party. Talking isn't illegal. I can talk about any sort of illegal activity I MIGHT do - the first amendment pretty much protects that. It's not until you actually set out to do something illegal that it becomes illegal. In order to show that, you have to show that Blago or one of his people actually put into motion the plan. Without them letting a third party in on their desires, all you have is talk.

Ok, well how about you draw that map and buy that gun and we will see if you don't get prosecuted for conspiracy to commit murder.

You just proved my point. Talking isn't illegal. If you say "I want to sell this seat", you are fine. However, once you put that plan in motion, you are in trouble. If any of the "talk" they have can be taken as an action toward implementing that plan, they can nail them.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

I believe the probe was outed to protect Jesse Jackson Jr. Had it gone undisturbed, money would have changed hands; and regardless if Jr was directly involved,it would have ruined his political career.

Bingo. The reason why they acted when they did, before they actually had any evidence of real "quid pro quo" was because someone was going to get nailed in addition to Blago if they did. Damage control. Nice and dirty. I expect nothing less from Patrick Fitzgerald.

Originally Posted by TheMosco 

Ok, well how about you draw that map and buy that gun and we will see if you don't get prosecuted for conspiracy to commit murder.

I already own a gun and I'll make that map right now.

You just proved my point. Talking isn't illegal. If you say "I want to sell this seat", you are fine. However, once you put that plan in motion, you are in trouble. If any of the "talk" they have can be taken as an action toward implementing that plan, they can nail them.

They have no evidence of anything more than "talk". At least none they have shown, so they likely have little to "nail them" on. Unless someone was offered a bribe for the seat (and apparently Fitzgerald acted before this was done) they are going to have a hard time prosecuting him. That's precisely the tact his lawyer is smartly taking. I'm not sure there was ever any real any expectation that Blago was going to do any time anyways. I'm pretty sure they are/where counting on the fact that the "talk" looks REALLY bad and that it would keep Blago from naming someone Obama/Reid/Pelosi didn't want and protect any of the potential Democrats Blago hoped to bribe from facing prosecution for accepting or not reporting the criminal behavior.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I already own a gun and I'll make that map right now.

Awesome

Please post your detailed plans here, incl. pics of teh gun.

You might become the second 'NN member to be investigated by the FBI. Ca$h would be proud of you.

-t

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

How can they not seat him? Yes, I understand the "technicalities" that are being thrown in his way to stop him. But he's just be accused, and I've yet to see any evidence that he actually did anything illegal.

I think you need to make a subtle distinction here between what is illegal and what is grounds for impeachment or resignation: they don't always go hand in hand. What is legal or illegal is solely an artifact of the law, while what can cause someone to be removed from public office is all about politics.

In a court of law, there is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. But the power of a politician, especially an executive like a President or a Governor, comes from the legitimacy of his office. Technically, even if Blago didn't break any laws, the fact that he was caught on tape openly discussing selling a political appointment is enough to undermine the public's confidence in his integrity, and warrant removal from office. It is enough to call into question all of his political decisions, especially the ones that deal with the appointment in question.

I believe that the Senate was well within its rights to deny his admittance, because his credentials were not in order. Whether or not the Secretary of State of Illinois has the right to not give his credentials approval is another matter: he was duly appointed by the sitting Governor, and under normal circumstances I don't think the Secretary ought to have the right to refuse to sign it. These are not normal circumstances, however, and his refusal to sign it is a political action designed to put the heat on Blago to resign, and reinforce the notion that the public confidence in his integrity (even for an Illinois politician) is gone.

As for Patrick Fitzgerald and his timing, ask yourself this: how pissed off would we all be if he waited until after Blago made an appointment, and after the new Senator took his seat, before busting him? Would we then bring into question every close action of the new congress, because of the "taint" of the appointment? Wouldn't we be accusing Fitzgerald of putting his career ahead of the integrity of Congress? I think he made a bold move, because going public when he did makes his case much harder to prosecute, but it insures that no appointment would get made that would be questioned after the fact.

(I can't stand calling him Blago, but I'm too lazy to write his full name....)

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Awesome

Please post your detailed plans here, incl. pics of teh gun.

I don't have "detailed" plans. All I have is "talk" and the means to make more than talk if I choose, same as Blago.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

As for Patrick Fitzgerald and his timing, ask yourself this: how pissed off would we all be if he waited until after Blago made an appointment, and after the new Senator took his seat, before busting him?

The thing is, there is a third option: busting Blago when he actually did something illegal, but before he publicly revealed the results of his illegal scheme. Blago ALREADY MADE an appointment and it appears his appointment will be seated. If both Blago and the target of his "pay for play" where caught, both would have a pretty air-tight guarantee at prison time.

Now, I'd say chances are good Blago won't do a day behind bars unless Fitzgerald ends up indicting people (or their reps) who where scheming with Blago and his people to get the seat. There doesn't seem any evidence to suggest this is going to happen.

Would we then bring into question every close action of the new congress, because of the "taint" of the appointment? Wouldn't we be accusing Fitzgerald of putting his career ahead of the integrity of Congress?

If Reid can refuse to seat the current guy who didn't do anything wrong or take part in any Blago scheme, then it's pretty clear he could do the same with a guy who was proven to have gotten the seat due to paying off Blago.

Really guys, this isn't rocket science.

I think he made a bold move, because going public when he did makes his case much harder to prosecute, but it insures that no appointment would get made that would be questioned after the fact.

See above. Too late. Now he won't get a prosecution, Blago got to name the person to the seat. I'd change "bold" in the quote above to "stupid" if I were you. I called this way back the day the lid was blown off the whole thing.

[stupendousman]

At some point, Fitzgerald's "handlers" are going to have to admit that they've got damaged merchandise and are going to have to find a new guy to do their partisan dirty work. He's worse than a buffoon.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...7091oops1.html

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

the public confidence in his integrity (even for an Illinois politician) is gone.

Chance of going to prison if Governor of Illinois: 50%
Chance of going to prison if charged with murder: 48%

(This assumes Blow-J goes down and is only counting the last four Governors, but you get the idea)

Edit: the source on this is Jon Stewart, so you get the idea there too.

[King Bob On The Cob]

Is anyone defending Blago here from Illinois even? I do not believe that the person Blogojevich picks to replace Obama will adequately represent the will of my fair state, so I'm glad they're blocking him from taking the seat.

[subego]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

Is anyone defending Blago here from Illinois even? I do not believe that the person Blogojevich picks to replace Obama will adequately represent the will of my fair state, so I'm glad they're blocking him from taking the seat.

As if being picked by him would somehow infect the person's brain?

I'm from (also in) Illinois and do not defend Blow-J, but can't imagine what your beef with Burris is. He'll represent just fine.

If anything, I think Jessie White is being a jag.

[stupendousman]

I'm not defending Blago. I'm simply explaining the enormous screw-job that's being perpetrated for Democrat partisan reasons.

[Dork.]

I do think that Reid is not quite thinking straight here. Not for refusing to seat Burriss, since his credentials were not in order. But by earlier insisting he would not seat anyone selected by Blago, Reid basically triple-dog-dared Blago to select someone competent for the seat. Now, in order to seat Burris (who appears, by all rights, to be an acceptable selection, free of "taint"), Reid has to backpedal. How can someone who is such a powerful politician miscalculate so badly?

[OAW]

Reid failed to heed the age-old warning .....

Don't let your mouth write a check that your behind can't cash!

OAW

[subego]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

How can someone who is such a powerful politician miscalculate so badly?

Was it that big of a miscalculation?

He made a threat. It didn't pan out. No one will remember it in a week.

Sounds like business as usual to me.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by subego 

Was it that big of a miscalculation?

He made a threat. It didn't pan out. No one will remember it in a week.

Sounds like business as usual to me.

I disagree. This will be remembered as one of the wheels in the Blago/Fitzgerald Cluster Foxtrot/train wreck when a year from now Blago's man is still in the senate, and Blago has done zero time for doing what a bunch of his fellow Democrats claimed was akin to treason.

All to try and keep Blago from naming a week candidate to the Senate while protecting other Democrats from prosecution.

[subego]

You sort of lost me there.

Reid is protecting who from prosecution?

You're projecting Blow-J doesn't go down, and Burris stays in the Senate, and people are going to remember how Reid ****ed things up?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by subego 

You sort of lost me there.

Reid is protecting who from prosecution?

Reid isn't. Fitzgerald has. Reid threw down the gauntlet and Blago used that to show how flimsy Reid and Fitzgerald's positions are.

You're projecting Blow-J doesn't go down, and Burris stays in the Senate, and people are going to remember how Reid ****ed things up?

As part of the "big picture", I think those who have paid attention will. Of course, once there's nothing more for the Democrats to gain from Blago's stupidity, the MSM will let this slide off their radar since promoting Democrat scandals and a "hired gun" partisan prosectuer won't do anything to help their agendas.

A year from now, I doubt most people will remember anything about this guy who Democrats had claimed had engaged in what amounted to "treason".

[subego]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

As part of the "big picture"

Won't people who are looking at the "big picture" focus on "big picture" things, like the Fitzgerald cluster train (nice imagery BTW ) rather than an empty threat that didn't even make it through a whole news cycle before the perpetrator (Reid) started to backpedal?

If not, why not?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob 

Is anyone defending Blago here from Illinois even? I do not believe that the person Blogojevich picks to replace Obama will adequately represent the will of my fair state, so I'm glad they're blocking him from taking the seat.

So you'd rather not be represented at all? Admittedly I'm not from Illinois, but my wife is and a lot of her friends and family are still there. From what I've heard Burris is not a bad choice to replace Obama. So unless you've got some specific problem with him, I don't see how you can possibly approve of your Secretary of State shirking his (state) Constitutional duties at the expense of your representation in the US Senate.

[stupendousman]

Is Blago in jail yet? I mean, here's a guy who members of his own party called a traitor to the US and he's still running around a free man? Have they stated who it was he was conspiring with in order to sell the seat - you know, who the offer was made to? Have they been arrested yet? Surely they have evidence that he actually tried to go through with his big talk about selling since talk isn't a crime, right? Surely Fitzgerald didn't prematurely let the cat out of the bag before they had enough evidence to prove that Blago did something more than just end his own political career, either from incompetence and/or corruption on his part did he?

What's with Democrat lawyers like Janet Reno and Fitzgerald that they could botch a jaywalking fine and engage in some of the most partisan procedures, yet people like Ken Starr who simply did his job and actually got real convictions for real crimes he was investigating (and probably would have gotten more had some witnesses not chosen jail over testifying) get vilified by the press? Oh yeah, the answer is in the first four words of this paragraph....

Sad

[nonhuman]

You have to be convicted of a crime first. We supposedly have a presumption of innocence in this country, which is a good thing.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

You have to be convicted of a crime first. We supposedly have a presumption of innocence in this country, which is a good thing.

Well, he's been accused of treason so heinous that it was said by Fitzgerald that even career FBI men where disgusted by the extent of Blago's violations in ways they've never seen. Surely his bail was set in the millions? I wonder if the Rosenbergs got bail BITD? I'll have to look into how the government usually treats people accused of engaging in historic levels of treachery, as Blago is accused.

[nonhuman]

Treason? When was he accused of treason? I thought that all he had done was try to sell his temporary appointment to fill Obama's senate seat. Last I checked that didn't qualify as treason.

And regardless of that, even if you're accused of treason our justice system demands that you be treated as innocent until you are proven guilty.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Treason? When was he accused of treason? I thought that all he had done was try to sell his temporary appointment to fill Obama's senate seat. Last I checked that didn't qualify as treason.

He's not been officially charged with it, no. That hasn't stopped PWLers and others from insisting that his actions rise to that level though...

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...i/#post3773815

http://forums.joeuser.com/332428

What should be Illinois Gov. Blagojevich's sentence if convicted of the fraud charges? - Yahoo! Answers

These are just a few that I very quickly compiled using Google and MacNN's search function.

+Blagojevich +treason - Google Search

And regardless of that, even if you're accused of treason our justice system demands that you be treated as innocent until you are proven guilty.

I doubt that even if Blago had every intention of going through with the bribery crimes he talked about, he wouldn't do any time simply based on the way the entire investigation was purposefully timed. I'm guessing most of those who spoke so strongly the day the wiretaps where released knew this as well. Their goal wasn't to stop the normal corruption that is allowed to go on in politics because it's the "way things get done". Their job was to ensure that someone who could win the next Senate election was picked and that someone like Jesse Jackson Jr. didn't go to jail.

It's going to be hard for this guy who has been accused of something so bad that the word "treason" has been thrown around to get any time, when the prosecutor in charge decided to spill the beans before any actual illegal behavior went down. But of course this is the guy who decided he had to create crimes via a fishing expedition when he came up empty during the Valerie Plame incident where nothing criminal happened until they found a guy who didn't remember things the same as some journalists about something that wasn't even illegal to begin with. There was a "republican scandal" that needed ginning up, so Fitzgerald had to act!

No big suprise here. Oh yeah...for "treason", Blago had under $5000 for bail

[subego]

I'm having trouble keeping track of Reid's transgressions in all this excitement.

[Macrobat]

Reid should be the happiest man in Washington. He's been trying to surrender to SOMEBODY ever since he became Senate Majority Leader. He finally got his wish.

[subego]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I doubt that even if Blago had every intention of going through with the bribery crimes he talked about, he wouldn't do any time simply based on the way the entire investigation was purposefully timed. I'm guessing most of those who spoke so strongly the day the wiretaps where released knew this as well. Their goal wasn't to stop the normal corruption that is allowed to go on in politics because it's the "way things get done". Their job was to ensure that someone who could win the next Senate election was picked and that someone like Jesse Jackson Jr. didn't go to jail.

This is plausible.