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Settlers of Catalan
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subego
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Oct 1, 2017, 11:47 PM
 
My ignorant 'Murican hot take is in modern, Western European terms, Spain is and has always been a shitshow. I wouldn't want to be part of it either. I'll let the Euros disabuse me.

Honestly, I just wanted to use the title.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:16 AM
 
It was certainly a shit show today.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 2, 2017, 12:24 AM
 
It was a little unseemly.
     
angelmb
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Oct 2, 2017, 03:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Spain is and has always been a shitshow.
Truth. No reason to beat the shit out of people, even less the way they did it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 2, 2017, 11:53 AM
 
One thing is certain, you don't stop a peaceful revolution with mass-scale violence, that only makes the reactions violent as well.
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nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
P
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:08 PM
 
As I wrote in the other thread, I've been trying to understand what's going on here. I'm not sure I've had so much success, but what I have figured out...

1) History and culture. Catalonia doesn't belong with Spain culturally. It is a nation of traders, which has been much closer to southern France and Italy than to mainland Spain. It's language is an Occitan language, close to a suppressed minority tounge in France, and not especially similar to Spanish. It joined with Castille into Spain as part of a personnel union in the 15th century, but the two nations were not integrated. Catalonia remained dominated by traders that valued hard labor and making money, while Castille was a nation of warrior nobles who didn't work unless they had to and lived on income from their colonies in South America.

2) Respect, or the lack thereof. Catalonia is rich and pays much more than its fair share per capita-wise to federal Spain, which they obviously resent. In Castille, the Catalonans are seen as troublemakers, and more hated than the Basque, who waged a terror campaign on Spain not that long ago. This goes back to the view of Catalonians as cut-throat traders and Castillians as lazy above.

3) A rushed constitution. When Franco died without a successor (because that guy was murdered by the Basque, apparently), the civil society of Spain rushed to write a constitution to protect itself against another military coup. This led to a set of laws that have some uncertainties.

4) Partido Popular (the big conservative party in Spain) has been extremely undiplomatic. This may be to gain political points elsewhere, but whatever the reason, they have been annoying the Catalonians for decades, driving a group that mostly wants limited autonomy inside Spain to support independence.

Apparently the sequence of events is that Catalonia spent a lot of time rewriting its own constitution, to fix the rush job after the death of Franco. This involved negotiations with Spain, as it needed to be approved by both a local referendum and the parliament in Madrid. This was finished in 2006. In 2010, the "constitutional court" - not really a court but something closer to a parliamentary committee that tests laws for compliance with the Spanish constitution - voted to block significant parts of the Catalonian constitution. Catalonia saw this as a betrayal, as they had already negotiated this with the Spanish parliament, and now this "court" decided to remove single paragraphs from a document that was to be taken as a whole? The fact that the "court" was understrength, as a total of four seats were empty at the time of the vote because the new parliament had not appointed anyone to fill them, and one of justices was technically not supposed to vote but did so anyway, just made it stink even more.

So Catalonia basically voted for independence to get away from a system that is rigged against them. As far as I can tell, they don't really want that - they want to be one nation among several inside Spain with a degreee of autonomy similar to what a state in the US gets - but they are more or less taking their ball and going home. When the constitutional court rules that Catalonia cannot hold a referendum... well, they would say that, wouldn't they? Catalonia couldn't care less - that institution enjoys very little respect there now.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
subego  (op)
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:14 PM
 
     
Chongo
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Oct 3, 2017, 08:20 PM
 
Franco died without a successor
He had named Juan Carlos his successor, passing over his father Juan. When Franco was took ill, he became defacto head of state and was crowned King, when Franco began his valiant fight to remain dead.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 3, 2017, 10:03 PM
 
The pro-Brexit morons in the UK are actually complaining that the EU hasn't stepped in to do something about the Spanish police. Given the EU has no authority to do so, and no police force or military to do it with I'm genuinely appalled at this new low from a group who have been raving on for years about how dreadful it is that the EU are always interfering in member states' affairs and how they want their own army and thats terrible.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 4, 2017, 07:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
The pro-Brexit morons in the UK are actually complaining that the EU hasn't stepped in to do something about the Spanish police. Given the EU has no authority to do so, and no police force or military to do it with I'm genuinely appalled at this new low from a group who have been raving on for years about how dreadful it is that the EU are always interfering in member states' affairs and how they want their own army and thats terrible.
What the Brexiters are doing has sailed right over your head. They're trolling, man.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
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Waragainstsleep
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Oct 4, 2017, 09:06 AM
 
I think you overestimate them.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 4, 2017, 09:38 AM
 
These are the people who openly used 4chan and reddit as their PR firms, yet you feel they're incapable of trolling you now? It's no wonder they succeeded.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 4, 2017, 11:11 AM
 
I don't see how making themselves look idiotic is great trolling. Theres no hint of sarcasm.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Oct 4, 2017, 12:40 PM
 
Amazing.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
   
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