[PeteC]

The following is a post I also made to the Powerbook Apple Discussion group, I was just hoping that maybe someone here could provide some additional insight or advice. I realize many of you are probably going to say "Well, you should have bought Applecare," which would definetely help in my situation, I just couldn't really afford it as a student, and expected greater quality of Apple hardware, especially as I take very good care of my machines. Anywhere, here it goes:

I've been an Apple zealot for about 5 years now, and could never imagine switching back to PCs, but the events of the past month have made me change my mind. My Powerbook G4 is about 2 months out of warranty, and I didn't purchase the Applecare because of lack of money to do so (poor college student, etc, etc). My entire school life is centered on this machine, which conveniently one month after the warranty expired has decided to completely screw up. The speakers get static intermittently and become normal when they want to, the screen has a white spot despite Apple claiming the defect doesn't affect this model, the computer randomly decides to shut off when I close it instead of going to sleep, and the display sometimes gets all static and becomes unusable. I called Apple hoping there was something they could do, especially being only 2 month out of warranty with hardware problems that were obviously their fault. I was basically told, in not so many words, that I'm screwed because I didn't buy Applecare. So I now have a $2000 piece of metal and plastic that's slowly dying of its own accord, but I'm out of luck because the defects decided to wait an extra couple months to show up. It makes me wonder if I shouldn't have just gotten a PC, because the premium I paid for Apple hardware obviously got me nowhere. This is a very tough position for me as I rely on this machine every day for school work, and can't afford to replace it. Is there any hope for my Powerbook, or should I start looking at PCs for when I can afford a replacement machine? I appreciate any help anyone can provide me, and wanted to add that I'm not trying to troll, this is just a very rough situation for me. I would expect something like this from a place like Dell, but I always thought part of the premium price of a Mac was because you were paying for superior service. I just can't see buying another Mac after this ordeal, ending up with a useless $2000 machine because of manufacturer's faults.
Thanks

[sielo_X]

The same thing has happened to me. My Powerbook just won't charge up anymore so I had to go back to Windows. Sorry to hear about your problem.

[jer2eydevil88]

Pete,

You could take your notebook to a local Apple authorized repair center and let them run some diagnostics on the notebook. If its even a small problem like a bad ram module you could be in and out with less than $100 spent on the entire repair.

That is if the guys who operate the shop are even the least bit merciful about you being a student. I know it sucks that your notebook isn't under warranty but be fair to Apple because they offer to insure it for longer if you can afford it.

If you need any help diagnosing the problem yourself just pm me and I might have a diagnostic cd or two lying around.

[OogaBooga]

Sounds like a logic board issue to me, but how can you be sure that you weren't the cause of the problem?

[PubGuy]

My Powerbook had stopped charging after 4.5 years. Not sure if the logic board was hosed or not, I decided to take it to the Apple Store. They got out their TiBook and tried it with my power adapter and no battery.....it wouldn't start up. So, one of the techs said that the new power adapters are compatible with the Titanium Powerbooks. So, we took one and plugged it into their test machine and it fired up. So, I took the power adapter from that machine and plugged it into mine and sure enough, it fired right up and was taking a charge! Problem solved. Bought a replacement power adapter and i was back in business!

I'm with some of the other people here and vote that you should go and have your unit tested before you jump to any conclusions. You computer should have come with its own diagnostics disk that you could run to see what problems it reports. From my experience, these are great machines. Don't toss the towel in yet.

[PeteC]

Thanks for the tips guys. Unfortunately the only Apple authorized repair center in my state is a bit far away, so I'm going to try making the trek next week. I appreciate the help and advice though, this is a fairly stressful ordeal for me. I'll let you all know what happens next week.

[Randman]

Another reason why people should get A/C. Especially if they say, as the OP did, that the laptop was so important in their daily doings.

[WOPR]

Originally Posted by PeteC

Thanks for the tips guys. Unfortunately the only Apple authorized repair center in my state is a bit far away, so I'm going to try making the trek next week. I appreciate the help and advice though, this is a fairly stressful ordeal for me. I'll let you all know what happens next week.

Have you run the diagnostic CD that came with the machine? Just boot up with C held down and it will load the tool. It correctly spotted that the RAM soldered to my logic board had died.

[iluvmymactoo]

Originally Posted by sielo_X

The same thing has happened to me. My Powerbook just won't charge up anymore so I had to go back to Windows. Sorry to hear about your problem.

You've gone back to windows simply because you couldn't charge your powerbook?

[sielo_X]

No I went back to Windows because I can't afford to replace my Powerbook. So I decided to buy a cheap desktop instead. I might go back to Apple. But it'll be after they start using Intel chips.

[brettcamp]

did you buy your Powerbook with a credit card? Some cards automatically double the manufacturer's warranty. I've never tried this myself but I do remember reading on these forums (I think) that others had successfully gotten their original 1 year apple warranty extended by contacting their credit card company when problems arose after the original expiration date.
good luck!

[mrmister]

You're a poor college student who could afford a PowerBook?

Prediction: repairing the PowerBook will end up being more expensive than getting AppleCare would have been.

[TFunkadelic]

Now I'm not saying that Applecare is bad, but I do have a MAJOR beef with it, as well as the mentallity people here seem to have about it.

With how much Apple computers cost compared to the competition, proper functionality and reliability should be assumed, and not considerded something that is an exception. Whenever pepole here have computers that die of problems that are obviously on Apples end, everyone chimes in "well, maybe you shoulda got the applecare." Personally, I think that if you spend $2000+ on a laptop and don't get the Applecare, the thought of your computer dying without hope of reasonably priced repair shouldn't always be in the back of your mind.

[Kvasir]

True, when it arrives. But the machine mentioned in the original post is ~14months old (ie. "2 months out of warrenty"). Problems can develop with any electronic device the longer it is used. That's the point of AppleCare - not some cop-out by Apple to release faulty products, but to extend the 1 year warrenty, in case, as your machine ages and racks up power-on hours, something breaks, wears out, or otherwise goes FUBAR.

I don't really care weather the machine costs $2000 or $20,000 - after it's been used for some period of time, you have to accept the risk that some problem(s) may arise. Hence why people get extended warrenties and even insurance specific for their laptops or computers.

[bbales]

I have an original 12-inch PB. I've replaced the battery -- it just wasn't holding a charge -- and last December (when it was not quite 2 years old) had to buy a new power adaptor. I can't remember, really, what was wrong with it. It was either not working at all or the cord was frayed. My PB is on virtually all the time and is used many hours a day, so I consider both those occurrences well within the bounds of acceptability. Your problem might be something pretty easily fixible, so I'd definitely look into that.

I did get AC (I am not a poor college student), and about 6 weeks after the original warranty was up, had to use it to get my screen replaced. I was quite thankful I had gotten Apple Care. I know it's too late for now, but were you aware that the education rate for AC is a lot less than the "normal" charge? That's something to think about for the future.

and, for what it's worth, and knocking on wood the whole way, I've never had an Apple hard drive go bad on me, and that's after 14, 15 years and several machines. Problems, yes, but nothing that killed the machine dead. In contrast, we've had at least 3 PC hard drives go belly up, or mother boards burn up or otherwise die. My personal experience -- and that includes friends -- is that a Windows machine is vastly more likely to develop serious problems than an Apple machine. Again, that's my personal experience only.

Good luck. Let us know what happened. And back everything up!!

[PeteC]

I'm very (pleasantly) surprised with the responses I'm receiving here. I tend to agree in most cases with the sentiment expressed by the "You should have gotten AppleCare and didn't, your fault" people, but that's an attitude I generally see as appropriate with other companies. Apple obviously tries very hard to put out quality hardware, and support it with quality service, so I expect a bit more out of them than I would from Sony if my TV died. Regardless of whether these expectations are realistic, I did pay a premium for Apple hardware and expected long-lasting quality. As for MrMister's comment (paraphrased) 'You're a poor college student who could afford a Powerbook but not AppleCare?' Well, this is a funny thing. If you've been to college without any financial aid to help you, and no other financial support from other places, you know that every dime counts. It basically came down to purchasing AppleCare or having enough money for books. I could have gotten a PC laptop with ultra super automatic replacement warranty for cheaper than the Powerbook, but I thought (as has been my experience in the past) that the Powerbook would be much less likely to experience the problems that I would have with a PC laptop. So why get an extended warrantee on some crap Dell laptop when I get hardware that is quality enough not to need it? This was the way I thought about it, and unfortunately seems to have come back to bite me. Well, the situation is what it is, and I'll try to make the best of it. It's just a bit of a letdown that all of my faith in Apple seems to be just a bit unfounded. My hardware test CD is at home which happens to be further away than the closest Apple authorized repair center, so I plan on hitting them up first. I'll let you guys know how it goes, and I appreciate the help and thoughts from all of you.

[JKT]

To be honest, I would expect Apple to replace your screen for free, even if it is outside the warranty. The fact that the white spotting is a well documented flaw in the model means that it should be replaced for nothing, regardless of whether or not your serial no. falls within a certain range. My own PB had the white spot issue, and it was well outside the serial no. range (and as a second generation model, should never have experienced it anyway). The impression I was given by the Apple Genius at the Apple Store was that I would have had it replaced for free even if it wasn't covered by my AppleCare warranty. I would try to argue the case if you can with Apple wrt the screen at least.

[TFunkadelic]

Originally Posted by Kvasir

True, when it arrives. But the machine mentioned in the original post is ~14months old (ie. "2 months out of warrenty"). Problems can develop with any electronic device the longer it is used. That's the point of AppleCare - not some cop-out by Apple to release faulty products, but to extend the 1 year warrenty, in case, as your machine ages and racks up power-on hours, something breaks, wears out, or otherwise goes FUBAR.

I don't really care weather the machine costs $2000 or $20,000 - after it's been used for some period of time, you have to accept the risk that some problem(s) may arise. Hence why people get extended warrenties and even insurance specific for their laptops or computers.

So computers these days aren't meant to last a year? I know I've had my desktop PC, which I built, and have had no hardware malfunctions over the 4 years I have had it. I even have an old Compaq Presario laptop from 2000 that has not a single hardware issue to this day.

[Kvasir]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

So computers these days aren't meant to last a year? I know I've had my desktop PC, which I built, and have had no hardware malfunctions over the 4 years I have had it. I even have an old Compaq Presario laptop from 2000 that has not a single hardware issue to this day.

So what, we're going to quote our old machines that are still running? That somehow obviates normal wear-and-tear failures that occur on any machine? And are unpredictable by their nature?

i have a twinhead 386SX laptop from 1993 that still runs, and a Gateway 386SX from 1996 that still runs (both all original hardware). I also have a 1984 Zenith 8088 box (no hard drive, just 5.25" floppies) that still runs. I have an Oct. 2001 TiBook that's still going strong - albeit with a new HD (since the original went south - out of warrenty - and I hardly blame Apple for that). And I can list as many machines that have failed, or had problems, out of the box, or years or months later.

I don't see your point?? That's what warrenties, are about. A manufacturer accepts that, well, sh*T happens with electronic hardware. They offer a base warrenty, then, usually, an extended one, to cover such failurers.

Are computers these days expected to last more than a year - yes!! That's why the standard warrenty is about a year, by anyone. Longer than that? Who knows, that's the point of extended warrenties or insurance to guard against failures.

Any computer made, might arrive DOA, might have problems weeks/months after it's first used. It might last years, or even decades. But there's no divine edict that says it will be fine, nor that it will be so for any given time - hence warrenties, extended warrenties, and insurance.

The fact that you've had machines work fine for years is completely spurious - probably everyone here has (Macs. intel machines, whatever). Anyone who's owned more than one computer, or one hard drive, has, also, probably had one fail, often for no apparent reason.

Computers go FUBAR, sometimes right away, sometimes months or years later.

[TFunkadelic]

You're missing my point. Note I never said extended warranties were a bad thing. I simply find it frustrating when (with all the problems the 15 inch powerbook is known to have) something goes wrong, all anyone says is "shoulda got applecare." At the price powerbooks are, they should not have the manufacturing problems they do, like warping cases, misaligned screens, white spots on the screen, logic board failures etc. and when those things do occur, to me they are ont the kind of things you just say "oh well, that happens to $2,000 computers in the first year all the time, no biggie."

I'm not the only one here that thinks Apple's quality control slipped up on this.

[PeteC]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

You're missing my point. Note I never said extended warranties were a bad thing. I simply find it frustrating when (with all the problems the 15 inch powerbook is known to have) something goes wrong, all anyone says is "shoulda got applecare." At the price powerbooks are, they should not have the manufacturing problems they do, like warping cases, misaligned screens, white spots on the screen, logic board failures etc. and when those things do occur, to me they are ont the kind of things you just say "oh well, that happens to $2,000 computers in the first year all the time, no biggie."

I'm not the only one here that thinks Apple's quality control slipped up on this.

My sentiments exactly. It seems that there's two schools of thought on this issue, the people who expect a lot from Apple (as we should, we pay a premium price for a premium product) and the people who hold Apple to the standards of any commodity manufacturing company. I don't see any reason for some of you to get all bent out of shape though, just a difference in philosophy.

[Kvasir]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

You're missing my point. Note I never said extended warranties were a bad thing. I simply find it frustrating when (with all the problems the 15 inch powerbook is known to have) something goes wrong, all anyone says is "shoulda got applecare." At the price powerbooks are, they should not have the manufacturing problems they do, like warping cases, misaligned screens, white spots on the screen, logic board failures etc. and when those things do occur, to me they are ont the kind of things you just say "oh well, that happens to $2,000 computers in the first year all the time, no biggie."

I'm not the only one here that thinks Apple's quality control slipped up on this.

err. no, I didn't miss your point - I simple don't agree with it. I don't see any significant decline in Apple computers build quality. I don't see huge, nor significant amounts of the problems you mention, relative to the number of machines shipped. All of the problems you mention appear to have involved a small number of units, for the number of models shipped for a specific revision. Not massive, overwhelming problems that indicate a serious decline in design nor manufacuring quality control. And the problems of white spots, logic board failures, battery issues, were all dealth with with recalls or replacements, as they should have been.

I just think you are wrong, and overstating the degree of the problems involved. Apple makes a fine product, laptops, desktips, servers, RAIDS (I have direct, personal experience with all) - they have, sometimes, problems, but that's where the warrenty kicks in, and the whole AppleCare program.

Your opinion is, of course, yours. Mine just differs.

[mrmister]

"As for MrMister's comment (paraphrased) 'You're a poor college student who could afford a Powerbook but not AppleCare?' Well, this is a funny thing. If you've been to college without any financial aid to help you, and no other financial support from other places, you know that every dime counts. It basically came down to purchasing AppleCare or having enough money for books."

You fib, sir--actually, it was the moment you got a PowerBook instead of an iBook.

"I simply find it frustrating when (with all the problems the 15 inch powerbook is known to have) something goes wrong, all anyone says is "shoulda got applecare.""

What else is there for us to say? I guess I could say I'm sorry for your woes, and I am—it sucks that your PB is on the fritz.

"At the price powerbooks are, they should not have the manufacturing problems they do, like warping cases, misaligned screens, white spots on the screen, logic board failures etc. and when those things do occur, to me they are ont the kind of things you just say "oh well, that happens to $2,000 computers in the first year all the time, no biggie."

Probably true, but according to Consumer Reports and most independent metrics, Apple is actually *ahead* of most other PC manufacturers in customer care...so I suspect if we want components to fail less often, we'll have to demand it with our purchasing power and accept that prices would then go up.

In the meantime, I think we're stuck with the current situation.

[TFunkadelic]

Originally Posted by Kvasir

err. no, I didn't miss your point - I simple don't agree with it. I don't see any significant decline in Apple computers build quality. I don't see huge, nor significant amounts of the problems you mention, relative to the number of machines shipped. All of the problems you mention appear to have involved a small number of units, for the number of models shipped for a specific revision. Not massive, overwhelming problems that indicate a serious decline in design nor manufacuring quality control. And the problems of white spots, logic board failures, battery issues, were all dealth with with recalls or replacements, as they should have been.

I just think you are wrong, and overstating the degree of the problems involved. Apple makes a fine product, laptops, desktips, servers, RAIDS (I have direct, personal experience with all) - they have, sometimes, problems, but that's where the warrenty kicks in, and the whole AppleCare program.

Your opinion is, of course, yours. Mine just differs.

Actually....warped cases and misasligned screens are so rampant that apple describes the problem as normal....

[imacgeek]

HEy if you try a archive instal it might clear some os probs up making the com faster. IF that doesn't work try going to 1.system preferences 2 energy saver 3. options and change the processer speed to high

[Kvasir]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

Actually....warped cases and misasligned screens are so rampant that apple describes the problem as normal....

HuH? Where, on Apple's web site, have they ever said that this was normal? Some twit may have said it to you, but where has it ever been *officially* reported that such issues, are considered by Apple, as normal?? Has there been a recall on warped cases (NO!), or on missaligned screens (NO!). Does Apple have an advertised repair/recall on either issues (NO!).

I don't know anyone with these issues. Can you point me to those who do?

The only places I've ever seen this are on MacNN, MacWorld, and Apple's own discussion boards. And that amounts to less than a minute fraction of Powerbook owners. Internet discussion boards are hardly a true, unbiased bases for assuming a design flaw.

Sh*t happens - is it enough to claim a fundamental flaw? Almost always - NO! Not in a product that ships hundreds of thousands of unts, to, mostly, highly satisfied costumers.

I'm on my fifth Apple laptop in 4 years - all have been flawless (I've upgraded as I've had money to do so). And I know lots of Apple laptop owners who can give similar glowing reports about their machines - iBooks, TiBooks, AlBooks. Some flaws, sure, they've been there, but fundamental design errors, or deliberate design errors - I don't see it.

[WOPR]

I think Apple decided to keep all their fundamental design errors inside one machine.

Step forward please... the iMac G5!

[chadseld]

Laptop batteries last 1-2 years, even if they are never used. A defective battery may only last a few months and then start making things go wonky. If your batter has gone south, make sure you reset your PMU, it may be confused at this point. My Dell laptop at work required a new battery and a new power supply after the 1st year. These problems are not limited to Apple. The guys at work thought the laptop was destined for the junk pile, but a new battery and charger brought it back to life.