[brianwilson]

Hey all,

Unsanity is prepping a service to get your themes, icons, cursors, and sounds seen by more people! We recognize that the Download tab in the current version of ShapeShifter just doesn't cut it. We think this new service will be a great improvement.

We're opening our new service to authors only initially. Please email me your request to get early access to the service at [extras at unsanity].

Please include a list of your publicly released work.

Right now we want to get a bit of feedback and get you authors to submit your creations before we open it to the public.

We're also looking for a few people to act as moderators for it. If you're interested, please add a note in your email to me and we'll consider you.

[siMac]

How about a support forum for Unsanity products? That ought to have priority...

People already do a lot of work for free that helps sell your products, but when there's problems you're nowhere to be seen.

Please don't take this the wrong way, you have some excellent apps, but no app is perfect and I can't help but feel that Unsanity customers are somewhat neglected in the aftersales department, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[MacDog]

Quite frankly, I just don't care anymore. There's no way to win this argument.

Why should I care about SS being updated when we have the same 4 or 5 great themes that we've had for years now just being updated and modded to death, and no sign of something new or creative.

Exposé kind of killed WindowShadeX's appeal. And there are dozens of apps (several are free) that do what FruitMenu does. Xounds is great, but it's certainly not what most people consider a big value, and I doubt anyone would raise holy-hell if Unsanity dropped it all together.

To be honest, I've been wondering why Unsanity even bothers with further development. They simply can't survive by selling apps that rely on other people to provide the part that makes the app worth buying to begin with (such as SS or MightyMouse).

Along with being tired of the slow development cycle of Unsanity, I'm also tired of hearing the same old **** from theme developers "waiting for this or that feature from Unsanity." ShapeShifter is available NOW. Quit your bitching about wanting to release the "perfect theme" and just modify it to work with what people have NOW. You holding off on releasing your theme is leaving those who want to buy SS but don't like any of the few original themes out there little choice but to not buy SS - which I'm sure hurts the guys at Unsanity, which in turn slows development.

What an incredibly eye-poking circle this is...

[Jasoco]

You know what's sad? The only reason I have to keep WindowShades running is for the shadow modification it does. I like a subtle centered (0 offset) shadow on my windows. I don't even use the Shade stuff anymore! In fact, if I wasn't so attached to my custom shadows, I wouldn't even be running it!

Can we maybe build that into ShapeShifter instead (Where it makes more sense to be.) so I can save some memory and turn off WSX?

[siMac]

^^^
What he said.

[JellyBeen]

Ditto...

[servo]

Some good points. I'm not using ShapeShifter right now due to the lack on an Intel version, but even if I was I'd have the same old themes to choose from. Most of the deelopers theme the Finder and maybe iTunes and Safari. All other apps still have all the aqua elements in them so most themes look like crap unless you are surfing the web or browsing your file system. If unsanity wants to get people excited about their products they should sponsor some themes. Pay a good developer decent money to make an original theme. Release a new one on their site every 3-4 months would even be enough. Assuming we don't have to wait that long for an update to SahepShifter every time Apple does something to break it.

[smellycat]

or get a site going like stardock's wincustomize.com they got a whole community movement up and running w/ that effort, took a while to get a buzz going, like a year or so, but it worked pretty well for the windows people.

[digitaljames]

Originally Posted by daprguy

or get a site going like stardock's wincustomize.com they got a whole community movement up and running w/ that effort, took a while to get a buzz going, like a year or so, but it worked pretty well for the windows people.

Stardock and WC have been around for years and years, add to the fact that windows has a million fold times more users....and why would we ever want to get *to* the level of graphics that make up the majority there????

[brianwilson]

Originally Posted by siMac

How about a support forum for Unsanity products? That ought to have priority...

People already do a lot of work for free that helps sell your products, but when there's problems you're nowhere to be seen.

Please don't take this the wrong way, you have some excellent apps, but no app is perfect and I can't help but feel that Unsanity customers are somewhat neglected in the aftersales department, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

A forum is something we've considered, but decided against for the time being. We have done it in the past with other projects and found it to be counterproductive. Who knows, maybe we'll revisit the idea again.

[brianwilson]

Originally Posted by MacDog

Quite frankly, I just don't care anymore. There's no way to win this argument.

Why should I care about SS being updated when we have the same 4 or 5 great themes that we've had for years now just being updated and modded to death, and no sign of something new or creative.

This new service has nothing to do with SS being updated or not. It is meant as a way to increase the ease-of-use for the users of our products. It is meant as a way for authors to get their work seen and used by more people and to generate useful feedback for them. (something they love)

Originally Posted by MacDog

Exposé kind of killed WindowShadeX's appeal. And there are dozens of apps (several are free) that do what FruitMenu does. Xounds is great, but it's certainly not what most people consider a big value, and I doubt anyone would raise holy-hell if Unsanity dropped it all together.

To be honest, I've been wondering why Unsanity even bothers with further development. They simply can't survive by selling apps that rely on other people to provide the part that makes the app worth buying to begin with (such as SS or MightyMouse).

Along with being tired of the slow development cycle of Unsanity, I'm also tired of hearing the same old **** from theme developers "waiting for this or that feature from Unsanity." ShapeShifter is available NOW. Quit your bitching about wanting to release the "perfect theme" and just modify it to work with what people have NOW. You holding off on releasing your theme is leaving those who want to buy SS but don't like any of the few original themes out there little choice but to not buy SS - which I'm sure hurts the guys at Unsanity, which in turn slows development.

What an incredibly eye-poking circle this is...

This is an surprisingly negative post in response to an effort from us to provide improved features and services. It may not be perfect, but we do our best with an extremely small team. You're more than welcome to step up to the plate to solve the problems you find with the scene. Or if you're unable to do that, please feel free to come on board with this new site and offer feedback.

Oh, and don't read this to be an angry response from me, it's not. I'm just frank.

[brianwilson]

Originally Posted by daprguy

or get a site going like stardock's wincustomize.com they got a whole community movement up and running w/ that effort, took a while to get a buzz going, like a year or so, but it worked pretty well for the windows people.

This isn't meant to be wincustomize, but it is meant to fill some of those same gaps. I hope we can do a decent job of pulling it together. I'll open it to the general forum-going public in the next week or two and hopefully you'll like it.

[MacDog]

Originally Posted by brianwilson

This new service has nothing to do with SS being updated or not. It is meant as a way to increase the ease-of-use for the users of our products. It is meant as a way for authors to get their work seen and used by more people and to generate useful feedback for them. (something they love)

This is an surprisingly negative post in response to an effort from us to provide improved features and services. It may not be perfect, but we do our best with an extremely small team. You're more than welcome to step up to the plate to solve the problems you find with the scene. Or if you're unable to do that, please feel free to come on board with this new site and offer feedback.

Oh, and don't read this to be an angry response from me, it's not. I'm just frank.

Brian, I think perhaps I wasn't clear in the way I responded. I'm not baggin on you guys at Unsanity. I feel your products are great. But they suffer from the fact that two of the "biggies" rely completely on the generousity and creativity of other people. And those people simply don't exist (in volume anyway) on the Mac. Themers are a dime-a-dozen in Windows, but not for the Mac.

So the reason I say "I don't care about updates" is because while I'm sure the updates are great, they simply offer me nothing new at the end of the day because I only have the same 5 or 6 good themes available, and the same few cursors. This leads to less sales of those two apps you offer. And it doesn't help that we've had a few themers who have previewed what looked like very nice themes, but then hit you with the "I'm waiting on Unsanity to update" excuse, when we have a perfectly good working version of SS right now.

Then you factor in the fact that since the original release of FruitMenu, a few other apps that have come along that have many of the same features and are free. All of this equates to less sales. So where's your motivation to move faster/work harder? Hell, I don't blame you guys for taking your time, because there's simply no reason to rush.

Personally, I think what needs to happen is for either Unsanity or MacThemes to gather a large amount of sponsors willing to fork over some cash as payment to themers who will actually release some decent themes.

Until that time, I fear all we're going to get as motivation to buy ShapeShifter is black and white box themes like Void (yawn), or one of what is probably 50 mods of Aqua where the biggest selling point is shiny vs. dull menu bar and sunken buttons (double yawn). Even DSKY's latest offering is an incredibly half-assed looking theme, IMO compared to his other offerings (which are fantastic, IMO).

I mean honestly, we've fallen into a deep hole where we find ourselves patting themers on the back for modding another themer's work simply by changing the colors on buttons... because there's nothing else to applaud!

[Tick]

Keep in mind it's a lot of busy work to make a theme, and a lot of hard work too.

[MacDog]

Originally Posted by Tick

Keep in mind it's a lot of busy work to make a theme, and a lot of hard work too.

Trust me, I know how much work it is to make an OSX theme. Not only in "creative" time, but the time it takes to figure out ThemePark as well.

It's obvious there are more than a few people who understand how to use ThemePark. I wish those people would spend all the countless hours they spend modding existing themes on creating new and unique themes instead.

[Tick]

Originally Posted by MacDog

Trust me, I know how much work it is to make an OSX theme. Not only in "creative" time, but the time it takes to figure out ThemePark as well.

It's obvious there are more than a few people who understand how to use ThemePark. I wish those people would spend all the countless hours they spend modding existing themes on creating new and unique themes instead.

The problem is that there isn't many other ways to do it than what's already been done. Black themes are pretty but generally either really hard/unusable for most folks, lighter themes are done, there's other stuff but in general the reason you are seeing so many mods of themes is I think the market is cornered.

I was going to try something new and have a lot of stuff in a new theme, but after doing Bubble Pop Electric I realized there is no feasible way to do a lot of what I wanted to do. Which is why I made that theme what I wanted and gave up on making themes. I think you'll find that sentiment throughout.

And besides, you're the one complaining, why aren't you doing anything about it?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by brianwilson

Hey all,

Unsanity is prepping a service to get your themes, icons, cursors, and sounds seen by more people! We recognize that the Download tab in the current version of ShapeShifter just doesn't cut it. We think this new service will be a great improvement.

We're opening our new service to authors only initially. Please email me your request to get early access to the service at [extras at unsanity].

Please include a list of your publicly released work.

Right now we want to get a bit of feedback and get you authors to submit your creations before we open it to the public.

We're also looking for a few people to act as moderators for it. If you're interested, please add a note in your email to me and we'll consider you.

How much you gonna pay them?

[siMac]

Exactly.

Don't you think theme authors already generate enough revenue for Unsanity without offloading your marketing onto them too?

[brianwilson]

Originally Posted by siMac

Exactly.

Don't you think theme authors already generate enough revenue for Unsanity without offloading your marketing onto them too?

There are plans for plenty of things on this new site to benefit authors. This service is meant as a help for the community AND Unsanity. Obviously the things we do are meant to increase our bottom line, we are a business. However, I think when it gets rolling, the users and the community are going to benefit far more than us.

I'm trying to look into ways to help themers and artists with much more than just additional exposure and hosting costs. I've got a few ideas tumbling around in my head. I'd love to hear your ideas. I am assuming you realize that "pay them" is not a viable solution and that is said in mostly frustration/jest?

[Jay Condon]

Unsanity supplies a means to apply themes, that's the product they offer. If you don't like the companies products, prices, or service, then modify your system yourself or use one of the FEW themes that includes an installer. I'll stick with shapeshifter - it's cheap, it's safe, and it's proven.

As far as themers making money, it is up to them if they would like to charge for their themes or not. I would readily pay for a theme I liked. I think the model of skinplant.com would be a great one to follow...themers joining together in a business venture, offering some free skins, and charging for premium ones.

I'm glad to see unsanity making some efforts to breath some life in the Mac theming community, it's been slowly dying over the past year or two. The keyword here is COMMUNITY, it requires the donation of time and effort from it's members to keep the community active, alive, and relevant. It's not unsanity's job to pay you for that. Unsanity isn't making much money providing a product to the 2% of Mac Users who give a crap about theming on a platform with 2% marketshare.

I hope unsanity's vision for this website is realized, and I further hope it includes a means for themers to profit from their work if they choose to do so. Maybe this will help get the theming community back to where it once was. I applaud unsanity for taking the initiative to help improve the current state of mac-theming affairs, and if you think they're rolling in cash at the expense of other people's work, your delusional. Stop pissing and moaning and conrtibute to the community.

[siMac]

So themers giving hours of their time for free is 'contributing to the community' while Unsanity charging for their software is business? I'm not saying that themes should be charged for, nor am I saying Unsanity should give their software away for free. I am saying that it's kind of an unequal partnership - especially since themers have to pay extra for the privilege of giving their themes away by buying Themepark.

I'm just trying to show some perspective on the argument. A nice gesture would be to make Themepark freeware - what do you think?

Originally Posted by Jay Condon

Stop pissing and moaning and conrtibute to the community.

...and your contribution to this 'community' is?

[Dr.Michael]

Originally Posted by MacDog

Exposé kind of killed WindowShadeX's appeal.

Although it is off topic, I must say that this is by no means true.

I used to work a lot with shaded windows on Macs OS 9 and still do it on linux. This is IMHO by far the most efficient way to organize work on a small display. Very fast to use. After that comes hiding, which works well together with command-tab or launchbar. But it is inferior to shading.

Expose is a nice eye candy toy but in real life it does not help to unclutter the desktop and it is too slow. It always needs a second of orientation until you have found the window that you want to use. Shading can be used nearly blind.

Unsanity, this is a great tool

[Jay Condon]

...and your contribution to this 'community' is?

At this particular moment, it's simply voicing my opion. If I were in unsanity's shoes, I would be tempted to scrap the whole idea because every other post in this thread is bitching and whining about this or that. I just want to make sure unsanity knows there are people who appreciate their efforts.

So themers giving hours of their time for free is 'contributing to the community" while Unsanity charging for their software is business?

(Smart-Ass Reply) Yes. You figured it out. Unsanity is evil and in it only for the money. They keep a stable of hapless, disillusioned themers in a shed out back who work 23 hour shifts on refurbished bondi blue G3's. I heard COTL and MAX managed to escape from Unsanity's shackles, and that's why you don't hear from them today. They need to keep a low profile, lest they feel the wrath of Unsanity.

(Dumb-Ass Reply) I really couldn't tell you what motivates themers to spend hours of their time creating themes. Personal Satisfaction? The pride of knowing that people like their work enough to use their theme? Most themers tend to be younger guys who are into modding their system and feel good about sharing it with others. Unsanity provides an inexpensive product that makes it possible to do that without borking your system. I'm sorry, I just don't see any problem with this arrangement.

As these young themers get older and start having to deal with real jobs and life, they can no longer afford to spend hours and hours on what amounts to a hobby. It happened with MAX, It happened with COTL, and someday it will happen to SUSUMU.
That's why I think charging for themes is a good idea. If these guys could make a little money on the side, perhaps they would still be creating themes today. But it's not Unsanity's responsibility to compensate them for this simply because they provide a product that makes theming easier.

themers have to pay extra for the privilege of giving their themes away by buying Themepark.

That's a pretty extreme way to look at it. Themepark is a tool that makes theme creation easier. My wife spends hundreds of dollars a year on scrapbooking supplies for the privelege of giving away these scrapbooks to her friends and family. I suppose she could kill some horses to make her own glue and chop down some trees to make her own paper, but I think it's best to keep an axe away from my wife. Especially when Iv'e been spending so much time in these forums.

That being said, giving away thempark would be a nice gesture to the community, and may help diffuse some of the hostility towards unsanity that's running rampant in these forums.

[MacDog]

And besides, you're the one complaining, why aren't you doing anything about it?

If I had 20 to 10,000 hours to figure out what all the garbled crap in ThemePark actually is as it pertains to the appearance of the OS, I would

[Tick]

Originally Posted by MacDog

If I had 20 to 10,000 hours to figure out what all the garbled crap in ThemePark actually is as it pertains to the appearance of the OS, I would

Stop posting on macnn and get to it

[Tick]

Brian, I think one of the biggest problems is that themers are being charged for ThemePark. Any thoughts on this?

[digitaljames]

Originally Posted by Tick

Brian, I think one of the biggest problems is that themers are being charged for ThemePark. Any thoughts on this?

There's only a charge if you get tired of chasing the button...

[brianwilson]

As dj said, it'll work forever with a little button chasing. But more importantly, it is not an Unsanity product. Unsanity and Geekspiff have a partnership of sorts, but that partnership does not cover ThemePark. Out of my hands on that one.

Back to the main topic... my nifty new server to host this thing on died over the weekend right as the first testers were looking at it. (hard drive failure) So it'll be a day or 3 while we fix that mess. (just for the record, unmanaged hosting sucks. cheap, but sucks.)

[G0Ducks]

Listen... I used to make themes for windows back when stardock FIRST came out...In fact, I had a free license because I was one of the first themers with them. Before Windows opened up to the idea of themeing, SD had to code creatively to get around the limitations of the os.

It blows me away that themeing for Win98 is more superior than it is for OS X. I find it hard to believe that with our immensely powerful machines coders can't implement ways to harness the code to purely over-ride the limitations of the os.

If you are curious, here is what themeing was like with Win98.
You create your theme in Photoshop (version 3 )
You cut up the images.
You edit a simple text file that has coordinates and image/object classes to place the images where you want them on the window. For those of you who are not familiar with window back then... there were the same issues with editing the layout. That is why Stardock made it so that their themeing app used its OWN layout file.

Themeing had been blown wide open! People only needed to learn how to use photoshop and edit the magic text file and bingo.... you have a new theme!

I no nothing about how to code. I know a great deal about photoshop and html... Wouldn't it be nice to be able to edit an html-like file accompanied with graphics, bundled into a .guikit file to make a theme?

As for windwowshade. I love this haxie. However, the controls are not sensitive enough. I can't stand that the app limits the shadow to a HUGE 10-15 pixel minimum or a Tiny no shadow at all.

FruitMenu...my complaint isn't that Unsanity wants to compete with the others out there with similar apps. However, even though this is a small nit-pick, it is annoying to me that when you right-click to navigate with a contextual menu and you get too far to the right side of your screen, the little arrows that show there is a directory STILL point right, even though the menu will pop out to the left... Sure sure, this is part of the os, but please people... APE puts serious hooks into the OS... why not allow more, or allow them to be more potent?

And finally... Why aren't the haxies more connected? I mean, why is it that I can't put something in my guikit file that tells windowshade to make the shadows like "this." This could be optional, but you get my point.

Creative coding... Not just bending to the os... USE my machine Unsanity! I give you permission I can spare some RAM, VRAM... Whatever...

My 2¢

R

[siMac]

Originally Posted by Jay Condon

(Smart-Ass Reply) Yes. You figured it out. Unsanity is evil and in it only for the money. They keep a stable of hapless, disillusioned themers in a shed out back who work 23 hour shifts on refurbished bondi blue G3's. I heard COTL and MAX managed to escape from Unsanity's shackles, and that's why you don't hear from them today. They need to keep a low profile, lest they feel the wrath of Unsanity.

LOL - post of the day!

Originally Posted by Jay Condon

If I were in unsanity's shoes, I would be tempted to scrap the whole idea because every other post in this thread is bitching and whining about this or that.

Yeah, but the problem is we've got nowhere else to bitch and whine about 'em! I have already brought up the lack of a support forum - maybe Unsanity could look into a hosted forum here, à la Delicious Monster?

As for the rest, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm upset about unfixed bugs, others are upset about lack of updates, still others are not upset at all by anything.

[Tick]

Originally Posted by brianwilson

As dj said, it'll work forever with a little button chasing. But more importantly, it is not an Unsanity product. Unsanity and Geekspiff have a partnership of sorts, but that partnership does not cover ThemePark. Out of my hands on that one.

It's silly to charge the people helping to butter your bread though. This is a copout. What you're basically saying to me, someone who would be willing to actually put effort into making a theme if it was easier and I wasn't being guilted into being charged, is that you have no interest in helping those who help you.

At least, that's the impression I got from this comment.

This is all I'm going to say on this topic, no reply is needed I suppose. But please think about it from the perspective that I'm trying to relay to you.

[brianwilson]

Originally Posted by Tick

It's silly to charge the people helping to butter your bread though. This is a copout. What you're basically saying to me, someone who would be willing to actually put effort into making a theme if it was easier and I wasn't being guilted into being charged, is that you have no interest in helping those who help you.

At least, that's the impression I got from this comment.

This is all I'm going to say on this topic, no reply is needed I suppose. But please think about it from the perspective that I'm trying to relay to you.

I think you may have missed an important point. Unsanity does NOT own or have anything to do with ThemePark. I have zero say in what Geekspiff does or does not do with TP.

If it was up to me, I'd love for it to be free. But it's not my call. I'm not the one spending insane amounts of time creating that tool either. (it's an extremely time consuming app to code)

I do hear you and see your point, but this sort of logic can be stretched forever... Why is Adobe charging themers for Photoshop? The work they do really showcases and sells Adobe product. After all, Photoshop is nothing without the graphic artists that create art with it.

But hey, remember, I do agree with you in theory. Perhaps the future will bring an improved situation.

[Tick]

Originally Posted by brianwilson

I think you may have missed an important point. Unsanity does NOT own or have anything to do with ThemePark. I have zero say in what Geekspiff does or does not do with TP.

I didn't miss that, I ignored it, that's bs. It probably wouldn't take much to just buy tp out. Jason has already said he'd like for it to be freeware.

Originally Posted by brianwilson

If it was up to me, I'd love for it to be free. But it's not my call. I'm not the one spending insane amounts of time creating that tool either. (it's an extremely time consuming app to code)

It is so your call. Just ask that tp be shipped with shapeshifter for free, and viola. Shapeshifter literally depends on people using it to sell your product for you, and you're basically saying "screw that, I want nothing to do with it".

Originally Posted by brianwilson

I do hear you and see your point, but this sort of logic can be stretched forever... Why is Adobe charging themers for Photoshop? The work they do really showcases and sells Adobe product. After all, Photoshop is nothing without the graphic artists that create art with it.

This is such a silly way to think of it that way. Why do people need to always bring in the adobe comparison or anything else. If you are going to do the comparison, do it right:

Adobe sells photoshop.
Unsanity sells shapeshifter.
Photoshop requires content to be worth anything.
Shapeshifter requires content to be worth anything.
Photoshop content is provided by photoshop customers, and can be imported with whatever they like.
Shapeshifter content is provided by shapeshifter themers, themers can import whatever the like.
(this is where it deviates)
Photoshop content does not require the photoshop customers to pay for their own content, they can create their own.
Shapeshifter content requires a 20 dollar shareware program which requires those putting in the time to help sell shapeshifter to pay (or chase the button).

Originally Posted by brianwilson

But hey, remember, I do agree with you in theory. Perhaps the future will bring an improved situation.

Perhaps so. Either way, any further and this would be pointless. My point is made, your point is made. *shrug*

[TheSpaz]

I hate how most themes lack an icon set. What good is a really cool theme with lame Aqua icons? I will forever be using Aqua Extreme!

P.S. Does anyone know where to find older versions of Max's Smooth Stripes and Aqua Extreme (the ones for Tiger but, not with the stupid dark grey and almost square corners.) It seems like he replaced the old look all together.

[EatingPie]

I came here for a different reason, but feel compelled to post on this topic.

I'm actually quite surprised at the ragging on Unsanity in this thread. I came in open minded, but just see this as totally unjustified.

Unsanity does not deserve to be ragged on because they charge for SS while graphics artists make themes free. Why don't we rag on Microsoft because they provide a themeing control panel that's not free? Yes, I said not free! It "looks" free, but Microsoft added it because it helps their bottom line by providing a service users want... and thus potentially selling more Windows liceneses. There is absolutely no difference here... except that Unsanity is not Apple.

On the FruitMenu issue.... What competitors?? Can someone please provide a list, and I will gladly try them. And I mean Apple Menu replacements, not Menu Items that do the same thing... that is a different application!

I payed for FruitMenu because it was the best in my testing against 2 others (those 2 no longer exist AFAIK). If I thought the others were better, I would have used those. But to complain that FruitMenu has a fee when others don't? Bogus. If you don't like the price of FruitMenu, use the free utilities! It's as simple as that. If enough people stop paying for FruitMenu, then maybe Unsanity will give it away. But regardless, if there are better and freer Apple Menu replacements, why is it a problem that Unsanity charges for theirs? It's just yet another application, and another choice for users to make.

As a good example, Gimp is free. Okay, so are you going to complain to Adobe because they charge for Photoshop?

I generally try to not be so harsh, but this criticism just boggles my mind.

-Pie