[The Final Dakar]

Crappy post thing coming.

Its that time of year again. And it keeps getting worse. 10 years ago you braved crowds and lined up at 6 am if you were the truly dedicated or mentally imbalanced. Now you hope you don't get trampled to death and the truly resourceful bring tasers with which to pacify those who have beaten them to their most favored product. Wal•mart, the nations largest employer, now sees fit to drag its employees (who are now struggling so horribly to make ends meet they take up food-drives for them) away from their families thanksgiving dinner, so they can open the store to the masses who would stab their own mother to get a $200 tv. Where do we go from here? Can we skip Thanksgiving and go to Black Wednesday? Can we start placing improvised IEDs outside our neighbors garages to prevent them from getting to the sale?

America, wat r u doin
America, stahp

[andi*pandi]

people be crazy.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

people be crazy.

Companies, too. Is waiting til midnight really that hard?

[Chongo]

Saw this posted by Catholic Memes.

[ort888]

Cards Against Humanity raised their prices for Black Friday. I thought that was pretty funny.

Cards Against Humanity's Black Friday "Sale" Is $5 More on Everything - Eric Johnson - Commerce - AllThingsD

Meh. This is an easy thing to avoid. Just stay home and relax. Problem solved.

I usually find some good deals online, so that's a plus.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Saw this posted by Catholic Memes.

Meh

Originally Posted by ort888 

Meh. This is an easy thing to avoid. Just stay home and relax. Problem solved.

Then you missed the point of this rantish thing, then. I don't go out. I only did once, just to experience it (back in '03, which would be a tupperware party by comparison). People working on Thanksgiving and people killing each other just to feed to consumer beast is pretty ****ing terrible.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Saw this posted by Catholic Memes.

Brilliant.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Crappy post thing coming.

Its that time of year again. And it keeps getting worse. 10 years ago you braved crowds and lined up at 6 am if you were the truly dedicated or mentally imbalanced. Now you hope you don't get trampled to death and the truly resourceful bring tasers with which to pacify those who have beaten them to their most favored product. Wal•mart, the nations largest employer, now sees fit to drag its employees (who are now struggling so horribly to make ends meet they take up food-drives for them) away from their families thanksgiving dinner, so they can open the store to the masses who would stab their own mother to get a $200 tv. Where do we go from here? Can we skip Thanksgiving and go to Black Wednesday? Can we start placing improvised IEDs outside our neighbors garages to prevent them from getting to the sale?

America, wat r u doin
America, stahp

Don't let it get to you, because as you get older you'll just feel more bitter than even you can imagine.

Just ignore the papers, the news, tv, etc… Convince loved ones to do the same. The madness is just not worth it, it never was and it never will be.

[The Final Dakar]

Ok, obviously I've given the mistaken impression I participate. I don't. I'm decrying the system, for lack of a better word. We used to make fun of stores opening up at 5 am. That's child's play now.

[andi*pandi]

To participate in thursday store sales, I'd have to miss thanksgiving. I don't see the point. As it was, I was pretty exhausted. I did go out to a local store on friday, but no way I was going to a mall.

[osiris]

Some stores opened 3 pm thanksgiving in nyc. disgusting.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by osiris 

Some stores opened 3 pm thanksgiving in nyc. disgusting.

The disrespect for the workers is what irks me most. Aside for Christmas, isn't Thanksgiving one of the most cherished holidays? A time to get together with family?

[osiris]

yes, it a one of the most cherished holidays - so pure ( to a degree, gluttony rings a bell, but whatever..) the only way thanksgiving could be commercialized was by eliminating it outright by what you see today. edit: a shoppers holiday

[subego]

I feel it's kind of a bullshit, made-up holiday, from the days when it was still okay to grind the "mud people" underneath your boot.

Not that it's a good reason to beat down people who work in retail, but if it's cherished, that's a mistake IME.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I feel it's kind of a bullshit, made-up holiday, from the days when it was still okay to grind the "mud people" underneath your boot.

They're all made-up holidays, subego. Much as xmas has evolved, IMO Thanksgiving has evolved to stopping a moment to take stock of you life and see loved ones.

[subego]

I mean bullshit in terms of the event Thanksgiving purportedly celebrates never happened.

While one can't be 100% sure, I'm fairly certain there was a Jesus, and he was born.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

While one can't be 100% sure, I'm fairly certain there was a Jesus, and he was born.

...and his birthday conveniently falls on the old Roman festival of Saturnalia. Like I said, it's bullshit.

[subego]

I put "moved the day" and "never actually happened" on different planes of bullshit.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I put "moving the day" and "never actually happened" on different planes of bullshit.

Yeah and why did they move the day there? That's the bullshit.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by subego 

I feel it's kind of a bullshit, made-up holiday, from the days when it was still okay to grind the "mud people" underneath your boot.

Not that it's a good reason to beat down people who work in retail, but if it's cherished, that's a mistake IME.

I love Thanksgiving. Close family, no presents, delicious meal and football. It's totally based on utter bullshit, but as a reason to eat a good meal with the people you love I find it quite benign.

I'm so utterly baffled by what Black Friday has become I simply cannot fathom the mindset of waiting in a line in the cold and elbowing my way through the crowd to buy something slightly cheaper. There is nothing I desire so greatly that I'm willing to participate in that nonsense. It's shameful to see people reducing themselves to barbarism for a cheap TV or 50% off poorly made jeans. I feel the same way about waiting in line for the release of some new gizmo. I'll just buy it in a month, I won't die because I have to suffer with an iPhone 6 for 30 more days while the 6s is on the shelves.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Not that it's a good reason to beat down people who work in retail, but if it's cherished, that's a mistake IME.

To get back tot he topic, maybe its cherished because it and xmas are about the only two sacrosanct holidays workers get. I realize it sucks if you work at a gas station on ER, but there's nothing necessary about ****ing retail.

I mean, December 26th is a ****ing madhouse, why don't we start opening the stores at 6 pm the 25th to get a jumpstart on the returns and gift card purchases and after Christmas sales?

[andi*pandi]

Shush, or they'll hear you!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Yeah and why did they move the day there? That's the bullshit.

No, it's not at all.

If you're going to convert people to your way of thinking and believing, it is MUCH easier to co-opt/repurpose the festivities they ALREADY celebrate to the new system, than to dictate an entirely new structure.

I rather enjoy the fact that one of the darkest and most serious festivities of the Christian calendar — Easter — is celebrated in combination with heathen fertility rites and spring-welcoming. In the end, it actually means that everybody gets to party, regardless of what your beliefs are.

Of course, somebody is going to bitch about the lack of sacredness, regardless.


And on that note:

The irony of contemplating and Giving Thanks for all that enriches one's life on one day, and then running out and going apeshit, avoiding tramplings and knifings in order to buybuybuy all those things that one DOESN'T have the very next day is just too delicious.

Those crazy Americans.


(I'm fine with having special offers and such — i got some great deals on audio software I'd been looking at this Friday…ordered from my couch, in the comfort of my living room.)

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

No, it's not at all.

If you're going to convert people to your way of thinking and believing, it is MUCH easier to co-opt/repurpose the festivities they ALREADY celebrate to the new system, than to dictate an entirely new structure.

That's the very definition of bullshit!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That's the very definition of bullshit!

One man's "practical" is another's…

Everybody wins, noone loses; what are you sore about?

You assume that the new beliefs were forced upon the people. That wasn't necessarily the case. This method also allowed the people to maintain their customs, resulting in the beautiful and wild variations in ostensibly Christian festivities seen across, say, Latin America and the West Indies.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

One man's "practical" is another's…

Everybody wins, noone loses; what are you sore about?

You assume that the new beliefs weren't assimilated willingly. That wasn't necessarily the case.

Me: xmas is a lie

You: Its not lie. But its a very effective one.

???

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Me: xmas is a lie

You: Its not lie. But its a very effective one.

???

It's a celebration of a symbolic event. It was combined with previously existing important symbolic celebrations. Who the **** cares about the exact date?

It's symbolic.

If you think it's a lie because Jesus wasn't born on December 24th, then you're completely missing the point. How are the strawmen in your Year of the Lord 2020 A.D.? Because, you know, he wasn't born in year 1, either.

[The Final Dakar]

If you're going to convert people to your way of thinking and believing, it is MUCH easier to co-opt/repurpose the festivities they ALREADY celebrate to the new system, than to dictate an entirely new structure.

That's why its a lie. It's manipulation, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

How are the strawmen in your Year of the Lord 2020 A.D.? Because, you know, he wasn't born in year 1, either.

If you're pointing out that our way of delineating year is arbitrary, you get no argument from me.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Yeah and why did they move the day there? That's the bullshit.

They didn't "move" the day. They had no idea when Jesus was born to begin with. And they just picked Saturnalia because it was already a national holiday. They weren't gonna celebrate Saturnalia, so they just started celebrating something they did believe in.

It's like Jews eating Chinese food and seeing a film on Xmas. They already got the day off, so they do something useful with it.

[subego]

By the time Christmas was formalized, did we even know when his birthday was?

Edit: Scooped!

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

If you're going to convert people to your way of thinking and believing, it is MUCH easier to co-opt/repurpose the festivities they ALREADY celebrate to the new system, than to dictate an entirely new structure.

But they didn't "co-opt" anything. As I said above, it was just a historical accident.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

They didn't "move" the day. They had no idea when Jesus was born to begin with. And they just picked Saturnalia because it was already a national holiday. They weren't gonna celebrate Saturnalia, so they just started celebrating something they did believe in.

Substitute "put" for "move" then.

And take it up with Spheric, his recounting differs with yours.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

By the time Christmas was formalized, did we even know when his birthday was?

Edit: Scooped!

They had a pretty good idea it wasn't in the winter, if the biblical accounts were to be believed.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Catholic Memes.

Oh god. Next you'll tell me there's a Catholic version of 4chan.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

They had a pretty good idea it wasn't in the winter, if the biblical accounts were to be believed.

There's no reference to winter in the biblical accounts, as far as I can recall. But I'm gonna go check to be sure. Stand by....

EDIT: Ok, finished checking. No reference to winter in either Matthew or Luke.

[andi*pandi]

AFAIR, tax time in Bethlehem was in the spring? And that's why they were hauling ass to Bethlehem.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

AFAIR, tax time in jeruselem was in the spring? And that's why they were hauling ass to Jeruselem.

Bethlehem, not Jerusalem.

It also wasn't a regular tax event, but a special occurrance because Quirinius became governor of Syria. (Judea techincally fell under the governorship of Syria, though practically Judea was self-governing.)

The funny thing is, Quirnius became governor in 6 A.D., while Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. That's a 10 year gap.

My view: Jesus was born 6 A.D. and died 36 A.D., though it's still popular to believe that Jesus was born around the time of Herod the Great's death.

That said, the story of Joseph and Mary travelling to Bethlehem for tax reasons makes no sense. There's no sense in registering for taxes in a community you no longer live in.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That's why its a lie. It's manipulation, plain and simple.

It sounds like you have a problem with religion, not with historical processes.

If you use bricks from another building to build a new house, is the new house a lie? Are you living a lie if you move in? Why should anyone give a **** except for an interesting historical footnote, or the lovely color added to the brickwork by those particular stones?

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

If you're pointing out that our way of delineating year is arbitrary, you get no argument from me.

I'm pointing out that you should be complaining about it being a lie, for consistency's sake.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

But they didn't "co-opt" anything. As I said above, it was just a historical accident.

Maybe my definition of "co-opting" is different from yours, but using an already-existing festivity to celebrate your own agenda is EXACTLY what I meant by it (and I explicitly said as much).



Edit: OS X's built-in dictionary defines "co-opting" as "divert to or use in a role different from the usual or original one". I rest my case.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Bethlehem, not Jerusalem.

It also wasn't a regular tax event, but a special occurrance because Quirinius became governor of Syria. (Judea techincally fell under the governorship of Syria, though practically Judea was self-governing.)

The funny thing is, Quirnius became governor in 6 A.D., while Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. That's a 10 year gap.

My view: Jesus was born 6 A.D. and died 36 A.D., though it's still popular to believe that Jesus was born around the time of Herod the Great's death.

That said, the story of Joseph and Mary travelling to Bethlehem for tax reasons makes no sense. There's no sense in registering for taxes in a community you no longer live in.

The Lutheran Bible's German text doesn't mention taxes, AFAIK. It speaks of a CENSUS, for which all citizens were to return to their place of birth to, among other things, declare inherited properties etc. For tax reasons, of course.

Having just read a bit, it would seem that this is another historical incongruity, because that would have made Joseph a Roman citizen, with the legal implication that crucifying his son would not have been possible…?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Crappy post thing coming.

Its that time of year again. And it keeps getting worse. 10 years ago you braved crowds and lined up at 6 am if you were the truly dedicated or mentally imbalanced. Now you hope you don't get trampled to death and the truly resourceful bring tasers with which to pacify those who have beaten them to their most favored product. Wal•mart, the nations largest employer, now sees fit to drag its employees (who are now struggling so horribly to make ends meet they take up food-drives for them) away from their families thanksgiving dinner, so they can open the store to the masses who would stab their own mother to get a $200 tv. Where do we go from here? Can we skip Thanksgiving and go to Black Wednesday? Can we start placing improvised IEDs outside our neighbors garages to prevent them from getting to the sale?

America, wat r u doin
America, stahp

It's "progress"! At least the schmoes waiting at the Apple store seem festive and like each other, the ones at other locales always look like they're about to tear each other limb from limb.

[ghporter]

My wife and I spent "Black Friday" at the nation's largest Renaissance faire, ignoring systematic "consume and trample each other" crap. Instead, we "consumed" live music, interesting foods and real meade. It was great.

Had we been home, we'd have stayed in, bunkered ourselves against the onslaught of advertising, and rode out the weekend (as is our traditional practice).

I have never really figured out why people still buy into this, in spite of the fact that everybody already knows these stupid sales are a ploy, that their "great deals" are essentially fraudulent, and that their "special only for today" products aren't what they are advertised to be.

[ebuddy]

Excellent point! That's the ruse about the whole thing... people are doing all this Holiday shopping for naught. They need to know that the "deal" they're supposedly getting is not really a deal at all.

The Dirty Secret of Black Friday 'Discounts';

• The red cardigan sweater with the ruffled neck on sale for more than 40% off at $39.99 was never meant to sell at its $68 starting price. It was designed with the discount built in.
• The number of deals offered by 31 major department store and apparel retailers increased 63% between 2009 to 2012, and the average discount jumped to 36% from 25%, according to Savings.com, a website that tracks online coupons.
• Over the same period, the gross margins of the same retailers—the difference between what they paid for goods and the price at which they sold them—were flat at 27.9%, according to FactSet. The holidays barely made a dent, with margins dipping to 27.8% in the fourth quarter of 2012 from 28% in the third quarter of that year.

People are kicking, and screaming, and biting, and scratching, tazing and trampling others, and justifying nearly fully-staffed retail outlets to save $10 on an item that was marked up $10 to cover margins anyway. Just as we get the government we ask for, we get the commercial interests we ask for. I don't blame the retailers because the ones who do not open will suffer at the hands of the ones who do and I've not worked a job that wasn't up-front about the prospect of working holidays. I blame the collective with mentalities only slightly more complicated than looters during this time of year.

[Spheric Harlot]

Heh. I bought online, products I'd been eyeing for a while, from companies whose prices I know well, and whose discounts were real and obvious.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

It sounds like you have a problem with religion, not with historical processes.

Good lord spheric, you're really laying it on thick. Manipulation is not a "historical process" unless you consider war a "historical process" at which point I wonder if you'd tell me I don't have a problem with war but governments.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

If you use bricks from another building to build a new house, is the new house a lie? Are you living a lie if you move in? Why should anyone give a **** except for an interesting historical footnote, or the lovely color added to the brickwork by those particular stones?

Am I tricking the bricks into thinking they're still part of the old house? Oh wait, they're inanimate objects, this analogy is retarded.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I'm pointing out that you should be complaining about it being a lie, for consistency's sake.

You'll have to give me the guidebook for when I can and can't talk about stuff then "for consistencies sake". Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out all holidays are made-up which isn't a point I even brought up to begin with. Yeesh.

[osiris]

I searched Amazon for a guide to the holidays, the best I could come up with was Living & Working in Germany Living & Working in Germany: A Survival Handbook: Dan Finlay: 9781901130577: Amazon.com: Books

hope this helps!
lol

[P]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

The red cardigan sweater with the ruffled neck on sale for more than 40% off at $39.99 was never meant to sell at its $68 starting price. It was designed with the discount built in.

For laptops, the trick is changing the spec slightly. This year, all the participating OEMs have made new part numbers for the same old parts except with Win 8.1 installed. Win 8.1 is free to download for anyone owning Win 8, yet they increase the price of the "new" laptops by $100 or more. You guessed it - the Black Friday price is just the old price again, yet they can show a massive rebate.

[ort888]

This is only partially true. There are actual deals to be had on Black Friday.

Yes, there are a lot of shenanigans in retail, there always are, but most retailers have actual items with actual tangible real world savings available. How many of the items are available is another story, but good deals are out there if you are willing to deal with the insanity of Black Friday.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by ort888 

This is only partially true. There are actual deals to be had on Black Friday.

Yes, there are a lot of shenanigans in retail, there always are, but most retailers have actual items with actual tangible real world savings available. How many of the items are available is another story, but good deals are out there if you are willing to deal with the insanity of Black Friday.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Heh. I bought online, products I'd been eyeing for a while, from companies whose prices I know well, and whose discounts were real and obvious.

Seems to me Black Friday is an excuse to offload surplus product. They sell a few at the inflated prices you've been watching throughout the year and then offload the surplus at lower margins. But they often have surplus throughout the year and if you don't believe me, watch for the clearance racks at the end of any season or the bargain bins at the end of a product's promotional cycle. VOILA! Black (enter day of week here). A diligent consumer can find comparable deals nearly any time of the year, but we may have more time to go get the stuff we want during the holiday season.

If you bought online, that's not entirely relevant to the article I posted. For one thing, online retailers' margins are different, often give you better deals throughout the year than brick and mortar, and for all I know can hold surplus longer. Still, I'd be willing to bet the deal you identified on Black Friday existed elsewhere at that discounted price some other time within that product's promotional cycle.

[Spheric Harlot]

On the physical goods i bought: yes, those deals could be had at many other points throughout the year.

Downloadable software plug-ins are difficult to classify as "surplus".

Slightly irritatingly, though, they've slashed priced on a particular plug-in I bought by ANOTHER sixty percent down from the Black Friday price, as of yesterday — but that is a completely different matter, as it transpired yesterday that the founder of that particular software company has contracted a nasty form of cancer and needs money for the treatment. So they're slashing prices and giving 90% of revenue to his cause. I'm absolutely fine with that, and don't feel stiffed. I'm going to try and convince them to do the same with the higher price I paid on Friday.

If anyone's interested: it's Bernie from Nomad Factory. Go get his plug-ins at Dontcrack.com — Magnetic II is $19!