[jon l. dawson]

for $600 + keyboard mouse ($60) and monitor ($350, samsung 17" 1280x1024 lcd), you can have a system that is pretty close spec-wise to the $1300 entry iMac. iMac advantages are video memory, ram speed, g5 vs. g4 plus 180mhz (though didn't some benchmarks show the slower g4s keeping up with faster g5s?), optical audio. I think that's it, unless you care about the built-in speakers too. Mac Mini does come with iLife '05, though, which is going to be a $80 upgrade, if you care about that sort of thing. I'm sure they'll offer it with the iMac soon anyway.

So my honest serious question is, assuming you don't care about the form factor either way, is the difference worth $300? Is there going to be any actual perceived difference in speed? I'm wondering what you all think about this.

[discotronic]

If you don't already have a keyboard, mouse and monitor I would say go for the iMac.

The iMac can be upgraded with more RAM, has a better graphics card, faster RAM, Bus speed and easier to upgrade. The Mac mini is really targeting an audience that already has these things.

On the other hand you can actually get a cheap 17" LCD for about $250 and get a USB Keyboard and Mouse for around $25.

I had an iMac G4 1.25GHz and upgraded to the new iMac G5 1.8GHz. There is definately a noticable difference in the 2 systems as far as performance. Everything seems to run much more smoothly and I haven't played a game yet that the G5 can't handle. The G4 was a different story.

I really, really, really want a Mac mini though. Would I give my iMac up for one? Probably not. Will I try to sell my PC and get one? You bet I am

[PeteWK]

Wow, that is the question today, isn't it? I'm a 10 year Mac user, almost all of which has been on a Powerbook. For me, I wouldn't be locked down to any LCD and I do have a mouse and keyboard around here somewhere. I'm thinking the video card is the soft spot on the Mini rather than the processor. Also, I'm thinking that the hard drive is a laptop model given the size constraints. I'm seriously considering getting an iMac G5 and the Mini is only getting a little bit of my attention.

PeteWK

[eddiecatflap]

one word sums up the minimac for me

WOW!

it's a beauty and i want one



think G4 cube at the right price

i think the biggest problem apple is going to have is keeping up with demand

[rotuts]

isn't the mini intended for PC users who have a iPod, then 'crave' a mac of some sort ( Daddy, Daddy, pleeeeese!). they then use the keybord etc they already have.

the kid shuts up. Apple gets a convert for life.

this is what its for. not for a true mac user.

very interesting to see how this increases the mac community over the next year. I know several friends who will get this for an elementry Middle school child.

remember: its probably like cocaine: one taste and its for life. thats what they say. I won't know.

now a G5 with 4 HD bays and two cd/dvd traays. thats what I want. with a HDTV card of course.

rotut

[abo]

Can you make the mini Mac a TiVo replacement? What would you need?

[mitchell_pgh]

Mac mini = $599
Keyboard (wireless) = $59
Mouse (wireless)= $59
VIEWSONIC VG900b 19-inch LCD Monito = $467.46
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1,184.46 for a rather nice system if you ask me...



Screens last much longer then computers do. Especially CRT monitors. They can last 2-3 years (color accurate) and up to 5+ years for general use.

[-Q-]

Originally posted by abo:
Can you make the mini Mac a TiVo replacement? What would you need?

With the included components, not that easily. Some HDTV boxes come with firewire ports so you could use that as the input, but the scheduling software etc is non-existant.

However, with an ElGato EyeTV and a remote, it would be stupidly easy to do so. You'd have to purchase the extra DVI to video out adaptor (US$19) but you could do it....

[Sparkletron]

Originally posted by abo:
Can you make the mini Mac a TiVo replacement? What would you need?

The Mini definitely has HTPC potential, particularly depending on how quiet it is, but to get PVR requires some set top box and the software to drive it.

-S

[macdaemon]

Anyone have seen somewhere tech doc. about running OS X Server 10.3 on Mac mini?
I would love to buy this Mac mini for home web server, small, probably quiet and powerful enough, so anyone know if it will run OS X Server Panther?

[mitchell_pgh]

You can also pick up a 17" CRT at costco for $89
You can pick up a USB keyboard/mouse for $30

[Sparkletron]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
Anyone have seen somewhere tech doc. about running OS X Server 10.3 on Mac mini?
I would love to buy this Mac mini for home web server, small, probably quiet and powerful enough, so anyone know if it will run OS X Server Panther?

You don't need any "Server" edition of Mac OS X to run a Web server. Any version of OS X can do that right out of the box.

-S

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by Sparkletron:
You don't need any "Server" edition of Mac OS X to run a Web server. Any version of OS X can do that right out of the box.

-S

I know that, but it's more nice to run OS X Server, and use normal GUI that use command line for config mail server for example, dns, and etc, by the way OS X Server Panther more stable that client.

[Sparkletron]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
I know that, but it's more nice to run OS X Server, and use normal GUI that use command line for config mail server for example, dns, and etc, by the way OS X Server Panther more stable that client.

This is off-topic, but there are free Web-based GUIs that you can use to control Web services.

-S

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by Sparkletron:
This is off-topic, but there are free Web-based GUIs that you can use to control Web services.

-S

LOL
I know that, but I need to know about OS X Server Panther running on Mac mini, I don't need OS X client. Thank you.

[rotuts]

here are my comments. I have a G4Dual 1gz lots of ram lots of HD and the alchemyDVR card

I use cable to the TV card. its fantastic. I then make small 200MB files for 30 min of tv and keep them on a HD. these are informational
(cooking shows, etc) shows I watch once run 2GB 30 min in 320 x 240 Sorensen. on a flat pannel this is fine.

you cannot watch, pause, watch.

BUT a g4 will not do HDTV very well at all. the G4dual is taxed with a 320 x 240 Sorensen compression regular TV.

I hope to get a G5 end of this year, and a HDTV card by then. Im vaguely aware that HDTV cards after this year will not be able to record to HD by some sort of hardwire restriction, comnplemenmts of the TV/Movie industry concern for theaft. But I don't have any links to this problem.

anybody who reads this know about HDTV cards ( not set top box like ElGato id prefer to minimize desk top clutter)

rotut

[pantalaimon]

Good question, I currently have a 20" imac and i'm tempted to sell it on ebay and get a Mac mini with a 17" monitor, money is tight at the moment for me and i'd be saving �300-�400 by doing this. I'm tempted but i'm concerned about moving back down to a G4 from a G5 which feels super fast. I do print graphic design so a 1.42Ghz G4 would probably be fast enough... its a difficult decission. Graphics card isn't a big concern, I don't do anything 3D or play games so 32MB is fine.

[Rumor Addict]

Originally posted by rotuts:

BUT a g4 will not do HDTV very well at all. the G4dual is taxed with a 320 x 240 Sorensen compression regular TV.
rotut

Yeah I found this copy on the apple website and find it misleading to mention HDTV and the M and M in the same breath:

Televise Your Visions
You can use any TV with Mac mini as a display. Some newer HDTV models already sport a DVI connection, but you�ll need the optional S-Video/ Composite Video adapter to use Mac mini with regular TVs.

[rotuts]

maybe what the copy means at the Apple site is if you already have an HDTV for "tv" you can also use that for the computer as a computer display, NOT for manipulating HDTV signals with the computer.

to do that you need a pretty zippy G5 and a HDTV card or ElGato

rotut

[deboerjo]

Originally posted by abo:
Can you make the mini Mac a TiVo replacement? What would you need?

Not really. No TV tuner, or for that matter any video input at all is a critical shortcoming for this. You would have to add an external tuner plugged into an external firewire video capture box. Translation: lots of clutter and VERY big $$ for functionality that you could add to a PC with a $50 PCI card.

Other shortcomings for use as an HTPC: There's also no remote control, lack of integrated PVR software, and there's no 5.1 sound.

[Sparkletron]

Originally posted by deboerjo:
Not really. No TV tuner, or for that matter any video input at all is a critical shortcoming for this. You would have to add an external tuner plugged into an external firewire video capture box. Translation: lots of clutter and VERY big $$ for functionality that you could add to a PC with a $50 PCI card.

Other shortcomings for use as an HTPC: There's also no remote control, lack of integrated PVR software, and there's no 5.1 sound.

But if the Mini is as quiet as Apple claims, then it will already have an important HTPC attribute that most PCs lack.

This is the first revision. Perhaps in a year Apple will consider offering an HTPC/PVR version. It's certainly compatible with Apple's digital hub philosophy.

Meanwhile if you want HTPC without PVR you have a few 5.1 options: USB, FireWire, and WiFi.

-S

[chrisutley]

Some people must think I'm nuts, but this topic is driving me crazy!

The Mini would be a TERRIBLE PVR, just terrible. Add in the El Gato hardware and accessories, you are looking at what??? $1000 for your 35GB single tuner PVR?

Originally posted by Sparkletron:
The Mini definitely has HTPC potential, particularly depending on how quiet it is, but to get PVR requires some set top box and the software to drive it.

-S

[C.A.S.]

Originally posted by rotuts:
BUT a g4 will not do HDTV very well at all. the G4dual is taxed with a 320 x 240 Sorensen compression regular TV.

rotut

I can record, archive, and playback HDTV on my Dual 1Gig G4 with no problems whatsoever. I am recording using VirtualDVHS from my Firewire capable cable box. My cable company does not copy-protect any of the premium channels except for HBO so I have a almost 500 movies archived to both DVD-r and to a 2TB media server.

[Fvck You]

Originally posted by chrisutley:
Some people must think I'm nuts, but this topic is driving me crazy!

The Mini would be a TERRIBLE PVR, just terrible. Add in the El Gato hardware and accessories, you are looking at what??? $1000 for your 35GB single tuner PVR?

Chris, you may be going nuts, but I'm getting kind of excited. With this new product by El Gato (see below), you seem to get a good PVR option:

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file...ts_eyetvwonder

You get eyeTV & eye connect for $130. Add that to the cost of the 1.25 ghz mini-mac with a superdrive ($580 roughly with edu discount) and you're looking at just above $700 (assuming you have a monitor, KB and mouse). Now compare this to a TiVo DVD burner WITH the subscription fee, and the price seems comparable. The mini-mac, though, can offer so much more.

Now, I could be completely wrong here. Maybe the eyeTV interface is terrible and the added accesories would take away from the imac mini's simplistic charm. Still, I'm tempted by this PVR setup because 5.1 is not an issue for me and I don't already have a TiVo or a desktop.

Any thoughts? Would I be able to use the mini as a somewhat comparable TiVo or is this just a pipe dream?

[Squozen]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
I know that, but it's more nice to run OS X Server, and use normal GUI that use command line for config mail server for example, dns, and etc, by the way OS X Server Panther more stable that client.

Nonsense. They use the same kernel and run the same apps (Apache, bind, postfix). If your UNIX-derived apps are crashing on a 10.3 client, you have a hardware problem.

[macdaemon]

Originally posted by Squozen:
Nonsense. They use the same kernel and run the same apps (Apache, bind, postfix). If your UNIX-derived apps are crashing on a 10.3 client, you have a hardware problem.

Oh, sure, since 10.3.4 having problem from wake up with modem, 10.3.4. never have give me an kernel panic, but Apple can't fix problems, stable OS, give me break!

[milhous]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
LOL
I know that, but I need to know about OS X Server Panther running on Mac mini, I don't need OS X client. Thank you.

according to mac os x system requirements:
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/specs.html

Xserve, Power Mac G5, G4 or G3, iMac or eMac computer; 128MB of RAM, at least 256MB of RAM for high-demand servers running multiple services; built-in USB; 4GB of available disk space.

the mac mini is a desktop computer and has G4 processor in it, so we can infer from it that it should be able to run it fine. this may or may not be added to the official specs considering it might be a niche configuration to run os x server on the mac mini. i also don't see why it wouldn't be officially supported either.

[jon l. dawson]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
Oh, sure, since 10.3.4 having problem from wake up with modem, 10.3.4. never have give me an kernel panic, but Apple can't fix problems, stable OS, give me break!

What does this have to do with the thread topic? Please take this somewhere else. and maybe also you could edit your post so it doesn't have pages and pages of useless kernel panic logs in it? Thanks.

[rotuts]

Hey C.A.S very interesting can you post a few more details? actual file size for 30 min of TRUE HDTV (1080 etc) or what you have.

how do you play it? with QT? do you use a flat panel? what is the pixel size etc.

for me 30 min of sorensen3 best quality qt 320 x 240 is 2 GB


I don't know how to paste the info window on the QT file in this thread.

please give as many details as you can. also do you know about HDTV cards for Mac? DVR restrictions hard wire next year? a web ref?

thanks rotut

[C.A.S.]

Originally posted by rotuts:
Hey C.A.S very interesting can you post a few more details? actual file size for 30 min of TRUE HDTV (1080 etc) or what you have.

how do you play it? with QT? do you use a flat panel? what is the pixel size etc.

for me 30 min of sorensen3 best quality qt 320 x 240 is 2 GB


I don't know how to paste the info window on the QT file in this thread.

please give as many details as you can. also do you know about HDTV cards for Mac? DVR restrictions hard wire next year? a web ref?

thanks rotut

I have a pretty lenghty write up on my site...

Check the About me section. I am about to re-do the go site and go with a blog style site as the current design is not the most update friendly and it is giving me headaches.

But so you know, you need a cable box that is Firewire capable and that the HD channel are not 5c enabled (copy-once or never). Or you can get a OTA tuner that has Firewire (Samsung T-165 or the EyeTV 500).

Although HDTV is supposed to be 19mbps most channels transmit at about 12-18mbps (some lower) so a 120 minute movie is about 9-15GB.

[tr]

Originally posted by deboerjo:
Not really. No TV tuner, or for that matter any video input at all is a critical shortcoming for this. You would have to add an external tuner plugged into an external firewire video capture box. Translation: lots of clutter and VERY big $$ for functionality that you could add to a PC with a $50 PCI card.

Other shortcomings for use as an HTPC: There's also no remote control, lack of integrated PVR software, and there's no 5.1 sound.

external tuner plugged into a firewire video capture box? why not just get an elgato eye tv, or better yet, the newly introduced elgato/ati EyeTV Wonder:
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/50...troduces_eyetv

$150 to make your Mac mini into a DVR.

tr

[notorious426]

Well I just got an 14" iBook G4 because it is portable but also because the iMac G5 I wanted was too expensive. My brother has been admiring my iBook since I got it so he might go out and buy an Mac mini to replace our PC we have at home.

But if it were up to me and I had sufficient funs I would go with the G5.

I hope Apple sees a lot of success with the mini because it's a great deal.

[Fvck You]

Originally posted by tr:
external tuner plugged into a firewire video capture box? why not just get an elgato eye tv, or better yet, the newly introduced elgato/ati EyeTV Wonder:
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/50...troduces_eyetv

$150 to make your Mac mini into a DVR.

tr

Actually, it's $129 right now with eyeconnect bundled with it for free.

http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file...ts_eyetvwonder

[JHromadka]

Originally posted by macdaemon:
LOL
I know that, but I need to know about OS X Server Panther running on Mac mini, I don't need OS X client. Thank you.

I plan on doing this too. Waiting for Tiger Server though.

[gzeus]

Originally posted by tr:
why not just get an elgato eye tv, or better yet, the newly introduced elgato/ati EyeTV Wonder
$150 to make your Mac mini into a DVR.

And you'll have spent $650 for something that won't do the job - the 4200 rpm hard drive is going to be dropping frames like crazy. If you must make a pvr out of this thing, spend the extra $100 and get something that includes a hardware mpeg-2 encoder (that way, the video gets encoded (shrunk) before it's written to the hard drive, giving it a chance to keep up). Check out the eyetv 200 or the
Plextor convertX .

[Athens]

3 of my PC friends are really looking at buying one, they already have monitors, they will need the keyboards though. My and there only complaint is the 2 USB ports. They should have had 3 as a min.

[foo2]

Originally posted by gzeus:
And you'll have spent $650 for something that won't do the job - the 4200 rpm hard drive is going to be dropping frames like crazy. If you must make a pvr out of this thing, spend the extra $100 and get something that includes a hardware mpeg-2 encoder (that way, the video gets encoded (shrunk) before it's written to the hard drive, giving it a chance to keep up). Check out the eyetv 200 or the
Plextor convertX .

The hard drive isn't the issue - the issue is the MPEG2 encoding, and I strongly agree that you'd want a card with an MPEG2 encoder. My Media Center 2005 box has a HDTV tuner ($150) and a normal 'analog' tuner ($25..great deal!), both with MPEG2 encoding built onto the cards. Total CPU time of the main box while recording 2 shows at once? About 10-15% CPU time.

The hard drive isn't stressed at all during all of this. Don't worry about the drive - just get MPEG2 hardware encoder functionality and you're all set.

[Scarpad]

Originally posted by PeteWK:
Wow, that is the question today, isn't it? I'm a 10 year Mac user, almost all of which has been on a Powerbook. For me, I wouldn't be locked down to any LCD and I do have a mouse and keyboard around here somewhere. I'm thinking the video card is the soft spot on the Mini rather than the processor. Also, I'm thinking that the hard drive is a laptop model given the size constraints. I'm seriously considering getting an iMac G5 and the Mini is only getting a little bit of my attention.

PeteWK

My thought also when i bought a Mini I was thinking an Imac as my first Mac I'm just not a Fan of Intergrated Design.

[suprz's ghost]

the only problems i have with the mac mini is
1_ money
2_ i dont have a lcd monitor, and i hate the fact that the price of a decent 17-19 inch lcd is close to the price of the mac mini itself!

[Scarpad]

Originally posted by suprz's ghost:
the only problems i have with the mac mini is
1_ money
2_ i dont have a lcd monitor, and i hate the fact that the price of a decent 17-19 inch lcd is close to the price of the mac mini itself!

to tell you the truth I need a new monitor I already own a Sony LCD but its on a different machine, I think I'm going to look for a decent deal on a 19" CRT. I have the Room and I still find a good CRT beats a LCD, good deals on them since everyone is going Flat Panel.

[FLYBOi]

[NO SPAM]

[rotuts]

I just ordered the mini with 512MB for a goddaughter.

this is a wintel household that knows little about computers, and can barely run there Dell. It causes fear and panic.

BUT with a KVM swith ($26 Fry/s) they now have 2 computers in one spot. turn the knob and OSX turn the knob again WinXP

thats what this machine is for. not for anyone that already has a mac.

after about an hour of instruction, which are they going to use? I'll let you know.

but I think 4 people are going to be mac enthusiasts very soon

more mac users = more software and stuff for us.

isn't that what this is about?

rotut

[meelk]

You're asking is $300 worth it for a system which compares to a super low end P4, vs one that compares to an similarly clocked opteron *and* has better everything else. Is there even a choice there? The G5 imac, of course.

[iJed]

The Mac mini has another advantage that I think few people consider: you can upgrade it far more frequently at the same price. Since I already have a good quality Sony 19" CRT, an Apple keyboard and Logitech USB wireless optical mouse attached to my PowerMac G4 450; replacing it with a Mac mini is incredible cheap (at UK�450 for 1.4GHz/512M model.) This means that, for the price of an iMac, I'll be able to upgrade my Mac mini again at a later date.

[foo2]

Originally posted by iJed:
The Mac mini has another advantage that I think few people consider: you can upgrade it far more frequently at the same price. Since I already have a good quality Sony 19" CRT, an Apple keyboard and Logitech USB wireless optical mouse attached to my PowerMac G4 450; replacing it with a Mac mini is incredible cheap (at UK�450 for 1.4GHz/512M model.) This means that, for the price of an iMac, I'll be able to upgrade my Mac mini again at a later date.

I strongly, strongly agree. Just keep in mind that the Mac mini isn't really $499 or $599 as most would configure it - 256M is really minimal with OS X, so add 512M RAM. Most would want a wireless card, so that's $80. Many would want a Superdrive, at $100. That's 50% more money right there - around $750 to $850.

Still a much, much better deal than the eMac, IMHO, since it's so much easier to sell in 12 months and get the latest version - usually less up front money, and (I believe) significantly better resale value.

[ApeInTheShell]

You can hook up a cheap television, TiVo, and cable or satellite service.

I think the Macintosh doesn't need television for any reason because it is a waste of time. Some could argue the same for DVD but television is rarely in widescreen or has special features about the tv show you just have to know!
Larger monitors could accomodate for the awkwardness of watching teleivision on a computer screen but until everyone buys 23-30 inch monitors to hang up on the walls I don't see the purpose.

The iMac G5 is still worth the purchase and the Mac Mini is aimed at a completely different audience. We should be focusing on the eMac vs. the Mac Mini because of the similar specifications and closer price points. I had some guesses what will happen:

The eMac may very well remain as just an education model and be removed from the consumer fold.
The eMac will be redesigned to match the iMac G5 models with a 17 inch screen while the highest iMac will be a 23 inch screen.
The Mac Mini will have a high end $699 model that replaces the eMac in every way. Well that is beginning to happen now isn't it?
The eMac case will be anotized aluminum to match the iPod Mini colors

Yet perhaps they are following the iPod product line:

iPod Photo = iMac G5
iPod = eMac
iPod Mini and iPod Shuffle = Mac Mini

Originally posted by foo2:
I strongly, strongly agree. Just keep in mind that the Mac mini isn't really $499 or $599 as most would configure it - 256M is really minimal with OS X, so add 512M RAM. Most would want a wireless card

Huh? Why would most want a wireless card for a desktop? I know some would, but running ethernet is more secure and faster.

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Screens last much longer then computers do. Especially CRT monitors. They can last 2-3 years (color accurate) and up to 5+ years for general use.

Computers can last that long too. I have a G4 733 that is still perfectly usable, I have no desire to upgrade. I expect my 19" CRT to outlast it though.

[Jonathan-Tanya]

Like many people, I like to sneak in a computer upgrade here and there, but the Mac style, of using the same computer for 5 years and then buying everything at once, new monitor, computer, keyboard, OS, etc...for a full $1300 or more, then expensing that out for another five years...and so on...is quite annoying.

I may be spending the same amount of money over time, but I like buying a monitor this year, just buying a cpu next year, buy an os upgrade the next, (and if truth be told, perhaps the purchases come slighly more rapidly than that).

the mac mini is a step in the right direction. First of all, say you are budgeting $1300 for a computer. You subtract out the $600 for the mac mini and keyboard, and that still leaves you with a whopping $700 for hte monitor. That's a $700 monitor that you can keep....(and it will be a nice non-apple 19" DVI flat screen and you'll have $100 or so left in change as well)....

See, that's the beauty of it all... if your child were to throw a baseball through that monitor, you just lost the monitor and you still have the mac mini....(didn't lose the whole computer)...OR, if next year, the monitor survived its stay in your home, you can swap out the mac mini only, and keep the fully great monitor for use with the new computer.

Of course, this style can be expanded, with motherboard-only mac's...and you better believe as soon as apple realizes the mac mini is a good idea, the userbase is going to clamour for that next step, because its also a great idea and will help apple sell more mac's.

its always a difficult thing, becuase apple's 'think different' approach has helped them do some great stuff, on the other hand, ignoring reality and some of the great ideas of the pc side of things, has always been a real drag.

[Jonathan-Tanya]

Like many people, I like to sneak in a computer upgrade here and there, but the Mac style, of using the same computer for 5 years and then buying everything at once, new monitor, computer, keyboard, OS, etc...for a full $1300 or more, then expensing that out for another five years...and so on...is quite annoying.

I may be spending the same amount of money over time, but I like buying a monitor this year, just buying a cpu next year, buy an os upgrade the next, (and if truth be told, perhaps the purchases come slighly more rapidly than that).

the mac mini is a step in the right direction. First of all, say you are budgeting $1300 for a computer. You subtract out the $600 for the mac mini and keyboard, and that still leaves you with a whopping $700 for hte monitor. That's a $700 monitor that you can keep....(and it will be a nice non-apple 19" DVI flat screen and you'll have $100 or so left in change as well)....

See, that's the beauty of it all... if your child were to throw a baseball through that monitor, you just lost the monitor and you still have the mac mini....(didn't lose the whole computer)...OR, if next year, the monitor survived its stay in your home, you can swap out the mac mini only, and keep the fully great monitor for use with the new computer.

Of course, this style can be expanded, with motherboard-only mac's...and you better believe as soon as apple realizes the mac mini is a good idea, the userbase is going to clamour for that next step, because its also a great idea and will help apple sell more mac's.

its always a difficult thing, becuase apple's 'think different' approach has helped them do some great stuff, on the other hand, ignoring reality and some of the great ideas of the pc side of things, has always been a real drag.