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paul w
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
You may not get much better than that. My prediction would be Avery Johnson.

Or Michael Curry.
Actually what am I saying? I want Detroit to be bad so my Knicks have some company on the bottom until Lebron come to save the franchise.

We won't even need a point guard (or other players) as he basically touches the ball for most of every possession anyway when it counts. And he's started to refer to himself in the third person.
     
TheWOAT
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
Completely agreed. But how many of those does Doc really fulfill? He doesn't keep the youngsters confident with his constant rotation changes, and to call him a leader seems a little over-glorified. And how many of those would you apply to a HOF coach like Larry Brown?

I agree about Mike Brown. I'm left scratching my head that if there are defensive specialist assistant coaches out here, why can't they find an offensive one for Mike?

On to Rudy T. I only really got to know him once the Rockets were rebuilding with Cat Mobley and Michael Dickerson. Seemed like a nice enough guy, but I never got to see him make those two championship runs, so my opinion is pretty irrelevant. He certainly seemed overwhelmed once he got to LA, but I blame that more on the situation.

Edit: Here's a question for you, WOAT, who do you think had the better roster to work with, Brown or Rivers?
Well, my opinion is skewed since Don Nelson doesnt like playing the young guys, and when he does, he often complains about it (Monta). But Rivers gave minutes to Powe and Davis throughout the year, maybe he didnt have a choice, but its better than playing the same 7 guys until they burn out (Don Nelson). As for his leadership, I just think it carried over from his playing days and the players seem to like playing for him...

As for Larry Brown... he doesnt play young guys, he gets under players skin, I coudl go on, but he is basically the opposite of Doc Rivers (they have maybe the "Take my dissatifaction of players to the press" thing in common, but Doc is more subtle, and this year had little to complain about)... and Larry Brown is a better coach.

Rivers had the best talent, easily... The Cavs have... well... its nothing to write home about, or on the internet, interesting roster to say the least. Assuming LeBron is a SF, then the Cavs have the worst backcourt in the league. (maybe bottom 5). Take away Lebron, and you have a 23 win team. After Lebron, DWest(maybe) and... Joe Smith?, they dont have any COMPLETE players. Ilgauskus (slow,slow, and slow on D), Wallace (No Off), Scerbiak(Slow on D, zero athleticism), Pavlovic (dont know much about him, but not impressed on either side of the ball), Boobie (unproven still, and wont deserve the contract the Cavs will give him one of these years)...
( Last edited by TheWOAT; Jun 3, 2008 at 01:28 PM. )
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
As for talent... The Cavs have... well... its nothing to write home about, or on the internet.
And somehow Mike Brown got them to the Finals. I wouldn't bet Doc could. But I bet Brown could get the Celtics there.
     
TheWOAT
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
And somehow Mike Brown got them to the Finals. I wouldn't bet Doc could. But I bet Brown could get the Celtics there.
Hmmm. But its the Eastern Conference. Could Brown improve the Celtics D at all? Not really. Offensively, he could only do worse. I think alot of coaches could have the Cs this team to the Finals, its the Eastern Conference.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
Hmmm. But its the Eastern Conference. Could Brown improve the Celtics D at all? Not really. Offensively, he could only do worse. I think alot of coaches could have the Cs this team to the Finals, its the Eastern Conference.
That depends. The media gives credit for the Cs D to the preseason acquisition of Tom Thibadeau. So, would the Cs be in the Finals without him but with Doc?

I think a ton of coaches could have gotten the Celts to the ECF. Not sure about the Finals, though.
     
scottiB
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
And somehow LeBron James got them to the Finals. I wouldn't bet Doc could. But I bet Brown could get the Celtics there.
Lebron drops 40 at The Palace and Boobie Gibson scores 31 in game 6 of the 07 ECF.

Mike Brown lead them nowhere.
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Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by scottiB View Post
Lebron drops 40 at The Palace and Boobie Gibson scores 31 in game 6 of the 07 ECF.

Mike Brown lead them nowhere.
I don't think Mike Brown leads, and I don't think he runs their offense.

But I do think he might have had something to do with Detroit's offensive output dropping by almost 10 pts a game that series.
He didn't lead them to the win. But he helped put them in a position where LeBron could win it for them.
     
TheWOAT
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:06 PM
 
ok Dakar4th, you convinced me... Mike Brown isnt a bad coach.

Can you convince me that the Cavs GM isnt as bad as I think he is?
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:06 PM
 
Sorry, I can't perform miracles.
     
TheWOAT
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:25 PM
 
The Celtics do have a chance, but it would requre Lamar Odom playing like crap, Ray Allen playing well, along with PP and KG... and the Laker youth to play like junk. I honestly expect the young Laker bench to wilt, along with Odom, but I cant see Ray Allen playing well.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:39 PM
 
In my eyes, the keys are this:

• the corpse formerly known as Ray Allen resurrects and plays to former all-star form
• Garnett completely shuts down Gasol and outplays him on the boards
• Lamar Odom: Gets into his own head
• Radmonovic can't stop Pierce
• Sam Cassell is gunned down in cold blood, forcing Doc to play Rajon huge minutes
• The Celtics back-up big men beat-up the Laker's back-up front court
• Aliens visit the earth (most likely to recover the body of Sam cassell, their kin) and bestow upon Doc Rivers an IQ of 150.

Should take about 4 of those 8.
     
scottiB
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
I don't think Mike Brown leads, and I don't think he runs their offense.

But I do think he might have had something to do with Detroit's offensive output dropping by almost 10 pts a game that series.
He didn't lead them to the win. But he helped put them in a position where LeBron could win it for them.
But he might not have. Tough to prove. Where was Brown's legerdemain at this year's game seven? As you can tell, I don't think coaching is that important at this level as having team talent, obviously.

And mea culpa, you didn't write "lead".
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paul w
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:48 PM
 
^^Your list conveniently left out the biggest problem for the Celtics.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by scottiB View Post
Tough to prove.
Absolutely. But what if's and situational questions are fun.

Originally Posted by scottiB View Post
Where was Brown's legerdemain at this year's game seven?
Nice word.As noted, Brown's speciality is defense. But Doc's got an assistant of the same class. So basically the contest was left to be decided on the offensive end. Not surprised who won that battle, particularly at home.

Originally Posted by scottiB View Post
As you can tell, I don't think coaching is that important at this level as having team talent, obviously.
I've come to learn that more the past few years. But by the same token, I have a hard time believing that a noteworthy coaching deficit won't decide the series. Arguably that's what happened to the Raptors last year against the Nets.

Originally Posted by scottiB View Post
And mea culpa, you didn't write "lead".
S'right.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
^^Your list conveniently left out the biggest problem for the Celtics.
Crap, what did I forget?

Edit: If it's Kobe, not really. I'm playing the Suns strategy here. Let him get off, deny everyone else.
     
paul w
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:00 PM
 
Yeah good luck with that in the fourth quarter of a close game.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Yeah good luck with that in the fourth quarter of a close game.
If its a close game in the fourth, then they obviously they didn't get the points I talked about done. You take care of the business I mentioned, it doesn't get to be a close game. Sure Kobe could go off for 60 and win a game all by himself. But not 4 times.
     
paul w
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:08 PM
 
Anything's possible - foul trouble, jumpers not falling, etc. But you have to count on these teams playing more or less close games.

Also you forgot one thing: if Perkins keeps playing well then they not only have more help with Gasol but help in the paint for the inevitable barrage of Kobe drives to the basket.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:27 PM
 
I wonder if Kobe will request another trade if Boston miraculously wins this series.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Anything's possible - foul trouble, jumpers not falling, etc. But you have to count on these teams playing more or less close games.
Well, I'm not sure what you're looking for here Paul. Yeah, anything is possible. But more importantly, I'm not sure how you expect me to account for Kobe going off at crunch time. Isn't that the greatest problem for any coach facing the Lakers? That's why the key is not getting into that situation in first place. I could feed you the keep the bigs in the paint and have the defender play him tight on the perimeter line, though.

Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Also you forgot one thing: if Perkins keeps playing well then they not only have more help with Gasol but help in the paint for the inevitable barrage of Kobe drives to the basket.
Actually, it's more of a purposeful error on my part. Perkins defending Odom makes no sense (if not being a little dangerous) I just liked the idea of Garnett matching up with Gasol.

You're right though, Perkins has been playing out of his mind lately. IIRC, this is truly impressive as I believe this was the guy who duffed two key free throws in a first-round playoff game a few years ago (as a rookie). That had to be a confidence killer.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I wonder if Kobe will request another trade if Boston miraculously wins this series.
Bitter. BITTER!

$5 says he won't be celebrating a title with a holiday in Colorado.
     
paul w
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth View Post
Well, I'm not sure what you're looking for here Paul. Yeah, anything is possible. But more importantly, I'm not sure how you expect me to account for Kobe going off at crunch time. Isn't that the greatest problem for any coach facing the Lakers? That's why the key is not getting into that situation in first place. I could feed you the keep the bigs in the paint and have the defender play him tight on the perimeter line, though.
They win with stifling team defense - they don't usually do the savvy let him get his points bit. Lebron took them apart - he was being heavily guarded and still made impossible shots. Shutting the other Cavs down wasn't an issue because:

They barely touched the ball.
They sucked anyway.

If Pierce didn't suddenly play out of his mind the Cavs are in the finals again.

I think they'll try and throw the kitchen sink at Kobe personally. Kinda playing into the Lakers hands but I don't know if they can really do all the other little things to win anyway.

Blame the nitpicking on having to wait a week for this thing to start. What is this the superbowl?
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 3, 2008, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
They win with stifling team defense - they don't usually do the savvy let him get his points bit. Lebron took them apart - he was being heavily guarded and still made impossible shutting the other Cavs down wasn't an issue because:

They barely touched the ball.
They sucked anyway.
Insanely so. But would it have been a series if Ray Allen played anything like the regular season? The way the Celtics have played these playoffs, I'm amazed they're past the first round. I mean, Atlanta? Atlanta! In a series featuring the largest margin of difference in regular season records in NBA history? Unbelievable. (Not to mention winning back-to-back series in 7 without a road game)


Originally Posted by paul w View Post
If Pierce didn't suddenly play out of his mind the Cavs are in the finals again.
Agreed. He picked up the Jesus Shuttlesworth slack.

Originally Posted by paul w View Post
I think they'll try and throw the kitchen sink at Kobe personally. Kinda playing into the Lakers hands but I don't know if they can really do all the other little things to win anyway.
I hope not. I think you throw Allen at him and say a prayer. Maybe he defends him a little better than he's capable because of that dumb feud. If he doesn't maybe you give more of his minutes to Posey if he's also dead on offense. It's definitely Doc's biggest worry.

Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Blame the nitpicking on having to wait a week for this thing to start. What is this the superbowl?
Blame Stern and his cocksucking of the media. Heaven forbid ABC doesn't know the date the Finals start a few weeks in advance.

Edit: Also, enjoy the 3 day lay-off between Games 1 and 2.
( Last edited by Dakar the Fourth; Jun 3, 2008 at 04:58 PM. )
     
ghporter
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Jun 3, 2008, 06:58 PM
 
I realized just now that I hadn't checked back in on this thread, hat in hand, and said, "yeah, the Spurs blew it." Of course they might not have if the refs had been honest. Has anyone heard anything about ANY NBA ref being disciplined for such a bad call—one that even the NBA says "that was a foul that wasn't called"?

Oh well. Let's watch some B-ball!

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
quesera
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Jun 3, 2008, 07:13 PM
 
Heal Spurs! Go Celtics!
     
boy8cookie
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Jun 3, 2008, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I realized just now that I hadn't checked back in on this thread, hat in hand, and said, "yeah, the Spurs blew it." Of course they might not have if the refs had been honest. Has anyone heard anything about ANY NBA ref being disciplined for such a bad call—one that even the NBA says "that was a foul that wasn't called"?

Oh well. Let's watch some B-ball!
The Spurs did blow it, the refs aren't the reason they blew their 20 & 17 point leads in the second half.

The refs blew the call just prior to that play, and that's the only reason the Spurs even had a chance in that game. (The ball hit the rim, Lamar got the rebound but a shot clock violation was still called, and the spurs got the ball).
     
boy8cookie
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Jun 3, 2008, 07:47 PM
 
Oh, see ya Flip.
     
Randman
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Jun 3, 2008, 08:39 PM
 
I never thought I'd live to see the day where I root for the Celtics over the Lakers in a FInals series.

But here we are.

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angelmb
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Jun 4, 2008, 09:05 AM
 
I have a debate whether Celtics in four, cause it would be awesome to sweep the Lakers, or Celtics in seven, cause it would be awesome for the basketball
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 4, 2008, 09:09 AM
 
I've forgotten how much people hate the Lakers.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 4, 2008, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
I have a debate whether Celtics in four, cause it would be awesome to sweep the Lakers, or Celtics in seven, cause it would be awesome for the basketball
Is this what you hope or what you predict?
     
angelmb
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Jun 4, 2008, 11:31 AM
 
Well I hope (cause I am a Celtics fan) & predict (cause I think they can do it) the Celtics winning the title. I don't hate the Lakers or any other team for that matter, there is no place to hate when it comes to sports. They gave us great basketball back there in the 80s. What becomes annoying is all my country is rooting for LA due to Gasol, yes he is spaniard, so what?, do I lack the ability to think and choose by myself? I don't think so, LOL
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 4, 2008, 12:27 PM
 
My first basketball memory was of watching Larry Bird at some point in the 80s, likely about 1987. The Celtics were the first time I cheered for. I've been watching the old Celtics/Lakers games on YouTube; I can't get over how much more fun the basketball was to watch.

If I had ESPN Classic, I'd be recording every one of the 80s Bos/LA games they've been showing.

Oh, and I've said it before...I'll say it again: Lakers in 5. Boston has no chance.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 4, 2008, 12:30 PM
 
I don't have the balls to put a number on it. Boston has been too confusing. They seem to be putting things back to the way they were during the regular season. But LA is peaking at the right time. This could go anywhere from a sweep to a full 7, something I haven't thought of a final in a while.

Edit: Aww, crap, I forgot about the 2-3-2 format. That makes it even harder to guess.
     
boy8cookie
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Jun 4, 2008, 02:42 PM
 
2-3-2 ? Is this referring to who has home court? Why would it change for the finals, where every other series was 2-2-1-1-1. Curious.

Anyway, I say lakers in 6.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 4, 2008, 02:45 PM
 
Apparently traveling more than twice in two weeks is too much for the media to bear. It's nice to know them come first.
     
exca1ibur
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Jun 4, 2008, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by boy8cookie View Post
Anyway, I say lakers in 6.
Agreed. My prediction as well.
     
boy8cookie
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Jun 6, 2008, 02:56 AM
 
WTF was that fourth quarter crap ? 4 Points Kobe? come on...

Is it just me? I think Paul Pierce faked that injury and came back all Ali style to get the crowd back into the game.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 6, 2008, 08:09 AM
 
Kobe was killing their offense. Guess he was a little 'tight' with regards to team play.

Edit: Oh yeah, seemed like for a stretch all of the Lakers shots were rimming out.
( Last edited by Dakar the Fourth; Jun 6, 2008 at 08:46 AM. )
     
boy8cookie
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Jun 9, 2008, 12:00 AM
 
Alright... was that a hockey match I was watching? Where were the refs?? Kool-aid???

How is it the lakers only got 10 free throws and the celtics got close to 40? Freaking ridiculous. The fact that the game was even remotely close at the end just shows how f**ked the officiating really was, everyone thought it was over, including the refs. Good thing the lakers will win the next 4 and be done with this crap.
     
jonasmac
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Jun 9, 2008, 01:39 AM
 
Sigh...Lakeshow is breaking my heart. I hope they come out strong next game. The refs really have been blowing it during both games, taking the Lakers out with some stupid foul calls.

Add that to the Lakers defense has been saaaad. Not a winning combination.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 9, 2008, 08:39 AM
 
I saw some bad calls, but I can't say I saw many blown calls. The Celts were much more aggressive and in full lock-down mode.

I think the real story is Kobe's inability to get to the hole (and finish). His FT attempts have been showing that problem. Just remember he, already has more FTs in two games against the Celts than he had in all of the Spurs series.

How about that Rondo, though? 4 pts, 16 asts, 2 to. That's as close to a perfect game you're ever gonna get out of a second year guard. Particularly one not drafted in the lottery.
     
Jawbone54  (op)
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Jun 9, 2008, 10:52 AM
 
And in two games, my series prediction was shot down in flames...

Oh, well. Up 2-0 means nothing. Just ask Dallas.
There are still some painful memories left over from that one.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 9, 2008, 11:42 AM
 
Someone on another forum predicted Kobe getting the Dwyane Wade effect once back in LA. If only so Stern can have his 7 game series. I can't say I disagree.
     
TheWOAT
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Jun 9, 2008, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by TheWOAT View Post
The Celtics do have a chance, but it would requre Lamar Odom playing like crap, Ray Allen playing well, along with PP and KG... and the Laker youth to play like junk. I honestly expect the young Laker bench to wilt, along with Odom, but I cant see Ray Allen playing well.
Lamar Odom playing like dung.. Check
KG, PP, RayAllen playing well... Check
Laker Youth wilting... Check
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 9, 2008, 12:18 PM
 
Ignoring Odom and Kobe's getting to the rim/free throw woes, I think Radmonavic and the lack of back-up size (Turiaf) are what's really killing the Lakers. If they didn't have those two issues, this series could look very different right now.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 9, 2008, 01:29 PM
 
Oh, I think I need to take a moment to acknowledge what a good job Doc did coaching that game. Went with Powe over Kendrick when he was ripping down the rim, and played Cassell minimum minutes. Well done, Doc.
     
jonasmac
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Jun 11, 2008, 02:26 AM
 
Garnett finally called for a moving screen!!!

Kobe! Vujacic! Go Lakers!!!!
     
boy8cookie
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Jun 11, 2008, 02:28 AM
 
Amazing what happens when refs call fouls.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Jun 11, 2008, 08:05 AM
 
Not exactly a reassuring win if you're the Lakers. Garnett and Pierce both had sub-par performances.
     
 
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