[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Last year's ref scandal confirmed what my dad told me years ago, the NBA is rigged.

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

How so? For gambling, sure. Outcome (who wins?). Not a chance. Refs can influence the direction of games, but they don't control it. A bad team won't beat a good team without an obvious amount of intervention.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Agreed, rigged is too strong a word. Let's say the refs can make it easier for some teams and harder for others to advance. That has been the issue with the Suns. They get a good lead, then let the other team get close, where the refs can have an affect on the game by fouling a key a player out, or keep putting the other team on the line.

Hmm, perhaps rigged is the right word? But who can trust a dirty ref out to PHA
My Way News - NBA dismisses allegations of rigging from ex-referee

relevant quotes from the article

NEW YORK (AP) - NBA commissioner David Stern dismissed allegations from a former referee at the center of a gambling scandal that the 2002 playoff series was rigged by league referees and officials, calling the claims baseless.

The allegations about the 2002 series were contained in a letter filed by a lawyer for Donaghy, who pleaded guilty last year to felony charges alleging he took cash payoffs from gamblers and bet on games himself. Donaghy, 41, faces up to 33 months in prison at sentencing on July 14.

Without identifying anyone or naming teams, Donaghy also claimed the NBA routinely encouraged refs to ring up bogus fouls to manipulate results but discouraged them from calling technical fouls on star players to keep them in games and protect ticket sales and television ratings.

"If the NBA wanted a team to succeed, league officials would inform referees that opposing players were getting away with violations," the letter said. "Referees then would call fouls on certain players, frequently resulting in victory for the opposing team."

In one of several allegations of corrupt refereeing, Donaghy said he learned in May 2002 that two referees known as "company men" were working a best-of-seven series in which "Team 5" was leading 3-2. In the sixth game, he alleged they purposely ignored fouls made by opponent "Team 6" and made phantom calls putting its players at the free-throw line.

"Team 6" won the game and came back to win the series, the letter said.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I just finished reading this. It's semi-believable as most people point to it as one of the worst called games in playoff history.
I tried looking up the boxscore to find out who the officials were, but no such luck.

While I'm not ready to take this guys word as gospel, I found this interesting:

• The letter also alleges that during a 2005 Rockets-Mavericks playoff series, "Team 3 lost the first two games in the series and Team 3's Owner complained to NBA officials. Team 3's Owner alleged that referees were letting a Team 4 player get away with illegal screens. NBA Executive Y told Referee Supervisor Z that the referees for that game were to enforce the screening rules strictly against that Team 4 player. Referee Supervisor Z informed the referees about his instructions. As an alternate referee for that game, Tim also received these instructions."

Mavs owner Mark Cuban did in fact complain after his team lost the first two games of the series, and Dallas went on to beat Houston in seven games. Jeff Van Gundy, then the coach of the Rockets, said that an NBA official had told him about the league's plan to closely monitor moving screens by Yao Ming, and Van Gundy was ultimately fined $100,000 for his comments regarding the situation. Van Gundy later backed off his comments.

Edit: The referees that did the officiating in the game were Dick Bavetta, Tim Bernhardt, and Bob Delaney.

[Jawbone54]

Don't you love the way Stern repeatedly reminds everyone that Donaghy is a "felon." He's really driving that one home.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I've become very tired of Stern the past 5 years. Ever since the Lakers had their three-peat he thinks he's God, just because the NBA didn't completely circle the drain in the post-MJ era.

[Jawbone54]

Stern seems to take credit for Jordan. MJ fell in his lap and made his league even more popular as Larry/Magic started to fade.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Not exactly a reassuring win if you're the Lakers. Garnett and Pierce both had sub-par performances.

So did Odom and Pau, Kobe stepped up, and Ray stepped up, so it balanced out. The difference in the game was Sasha stepped up.

A win is a win. No matter how ugly.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

So did Odom and Pau.

Difference is, that's not a change for them.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

A win is a win. No matter how ugly.

Didn't say otherwise. But for those of us who consider momentum and confidence to be factors... I say this game changes nothing. Boston still looks like the superior team, even in defeat.

[Jawbone54]

Boston is definitely shocking me thus far. All postseason long, they've looked very, very beatable, and all of a sudden it's as if they started believing the media hype they rode during the entire regular season.

What this makes me question is who in the West might've matched up better against them.

[Dakar the Fourth]

This series would be completely different if Bynum was alive. Yes, Boston's defense is leagues better, but Phil having another capable body guarding the paint as well as an additional post option would put some pressure on Boston they aren't going to see otherwise.

Edit: The answer to your question is the Jazz. Though Boozer was stinking up the playoffs, so maybe not.

[Dakar the Fourth]

ESPN Page 2 - Simmons: You want answers? I think you're entitled
One of Simmons' better columns lately.

A particularly timely part:

Q: What was the runner-up for funniest part of Game 3?

A: I swear this happened: For the final shot of the first half, Kobe spotted Salvatore on the right side in front of the Lakers bench, then drove right so he could be as close as possible to the ref if there was any contact ... and, of course, Salvatore obliged with a quick whistle for him. When a referee is affecting basketball decisions specifically by his particular place on the court, you know he has accomplished something special in life.

[Jawbone54]

In retrospect, Pierce's only mistake was not diffusing the Lakers fans before Game 3 by settling with his right knee out of court and buying it a $4 million diamond ring.

Heh...

[Dakar the Fourth]

I know, I loved it.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Difference is, that's not a change for them.

I have to disagree. Without those two, I bet they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

I have to disagree. Without those two, I bet they wouldn't have made the playoffs.

Sorry, I meant within the framework of this series.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Sorry, I meant within the framework of this series.

Gotcha. In that case I agree with you on that.

[Randman]

The NBA. It's fantastic, and we have the refs to prove it.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Big game tonight. If Rondo can't perform [well] and the Lakers tie it up, we have an entirely new series on our hands.

[Jawbone54]

These refs feel no pressure tonight, right?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Hmmm... I need to learn where to go to find out who's officiating tonight. Bavetta wouldn't surprise me.

[TheWOAT]

I dont mind NBA refs as long as their arent named Violet Palmer.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Thurs. Jun. 12Created: Jun 12, 2008 11:29am ET
Game Official 1 Official 2 Official 3
Boston @ L.A. Lakers S. Javie J. DeRosa T. Washington

Javie is as fair as they come.

[angelmb]

I only wish injuries were fair with the Celtics… Rondo not playing today wouldn't be any cool, who would tell this months ago, huh?

[Dakar the Fourth]

I hear you. I never like to see a series change based on someone's injury.

[jonasmac]

Lakers need to win tonight to keep the Finals ratings up. Sets up an EPIC game 5.

[Jawbone54]

I wonder if the Laker's fans will actually act like it's the Finals if they manage to even the series tonight. They have nothing on Boston's crowd.

[exca1ibur]

Boston hasn't seen a title in 20 years. I'm not surprised they are hyped.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Wow, Lakers with serious momentum out of the gate.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I spy Larry David by the Lakers bench.

Also, Phil Jackson really gave Derek Fisher the business in the timeout.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Unbelievable. I was watching Indiana Jones when Boston decided to cut the Laker lead to 11 in the third. Then I watched them close the quarter by cutting it to two.

That's gotta be disheartening if you're the Lakers.

[exca1ibur]

Poor shot selection for LA and a combo of good defense by Boston.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Lamar Odom's disappearing act in the second half hasn't helped.

[exca1ibur]

Ray just burned him so bad, that's the deathblow. Tell the fat lady she's on in 5 min.

[exca1ibur]

When you loose a 24 point lead, you deserve to go home. We should have a champ crowned by the weekend.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Wow, what a game. I think it's time to start thinking about Finals MVP. In my mind it's between Pierce and Ray Ray. Right now, I'm leaning towards Ray, he played all 48 of this one, and made the killing blow in a uncharacteristically decisive move at the end of the game.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I also need to give Doc his due. He saw Rondo wasn't cutting it and let House play big minutes in half two.

[jonasmac]

Breaks my heart. Now I have to hear it from all the bandwagon Boston fans.

Boston has been a great team all year. The Lakers had to overcome a lot this season as well. Boston is just the better team right now. Next year, the Lakers will have Bynum back and Ariza as well. I think maybe we're set up for another huge rivalry for the next couple of years.

I want to believe the Lakers can win 3 in a row (2 in Boston), but after tonight.....

[Dakar the Fourth]

They main thing that I came away with about the Lakers this game is they're too young/inexperienced. Sasha was about ready to break down on the bench at one point.

Still, if you're a Lakers fan, it's far from bad. This team just put a Finals under their belt and they're good to return for another 3-5 years, stronger, older, and hungrier.

Personally, I think the pressing issue is to turn Lamar Odom into something nice.

Oh, and probably the most underrated guy this series: James Posey.

[Dakar the Fourth]

If you're a Laker fan, Bill Simmons had a good podcast with J.A. Adande, talking about Laker teams present and past, including discussing the legitamacy of the Kobe/MJ comparisons as a team mate and Shaq's tenure on the team.

[::maroma::]

Awesome game. I love games like that. Huge swings in a Finals game is nothin but good times (for me). And I'm rooting for the Celtics (not a Celtics fan though) so that worked out. I hope they finish it up on Sunday.

[Jawbone54]

Speaking of Bill Simmons: from his Game 4 Diary:

The Kobe-MJ thing ... done. Over. Jordan never would have let that happen in the Finals. Ever. Under any circumstances. Nobody is ever allowed to bring this up again.

Here's a question...

Was that last (god-awful) shot by Kobe a lame attempt at a 4-point play even though he wasn't touched, or was he just THAT off-balance and awkward when he took the shot?

[Dakar the Fourth]

I'm saving the diary for when I eat lunch, but I think this picture sums up the difference between Jordan and Kobe pointedly.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I'm saving the diary for when I eat lunch, but I think this picture sums up the difference between Jordan and Kobe pointedly.

Well done.

I like this one for Kobe:

[Dakar the Fourth]

Edit: Dammit, I lost the post because I accidentally hit next thread.

I should probably explain what I meant to illustrate with the photo.

That shot was from the flu game, where Jordan spent each time out being practically carried to the huddles, and at the end of the game, he collapsed into a waiting Scottie Pippen's arms, like he was a puppet who had his strings cut.

I just can't imagine Kobe Bryant displaying that type of vulnerability. Not to mention he doesn't have anyone he trusts like Jordan trusted (and respected) Scottie. I don't think he's capable of that trust.

[Jawbone54]

I can only speak for myself, but I understood. Jordan was a winner for winning's sake, pure and simple. Kobe is a winner for his ego's sake. Kobe's ego doesn't allow for a display of weakness in any situation.

The difference is seen in his teammates, but also in opposing fans. There were fans who disliked Jordan (Knicks/Pistons/Jazz), but they admired him. People just hate Kobe.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Okay, just making sure.

I was reading one the marathon ESPn chats yesterday and the chatters asked what their favorite FInals memory was a few times. Repeatedly, the Flu game was brought up.

I haven't seen a great many finals series (probably less than 10 total), but I watching the FInals the night of the Flu game, and when it was over, I was in awe. I knew what had just occurred wouldn't be surpassed for quite some time.

[TheWOAT]

My Finals memories are.. The Flu Game, Hakeem Olajuwon looking like one of the 5 greatest players of all time, Magic Sky Hook, and Allen Iverson stepping over Tyronne Lue (also how Lue was allowed to grab and hold onto Iverson in the other games).

I have no ABC affiliates in my area, so I have been unable to watch this year. (DishNetwork doesnt show ABC in my area, while DirectTV does... and everyone I know has DishNetwork ... but i bet this would have been a very memorable game...

and about Jordan, Simmons mentions how bad of a teammate Kobe is often, but Jordan punched out Steve Kerr, fought with Cartwright constantly, and berated Rodney McCray so much that he lost all of his confidence (he was a decent player before arriving to Chicago).. but I cant remember Jordan showing up his teammates during a game, like how kobe refused to shoot and passed to his teammates during a game where they needed Kobe to step up. To me, Kobe Bryant MIGHT be better than Rick Barry, but even Barry was loved by most of his teammates, and lead his team to the Finals twice... but yeah, Kobe is in the Rick Barry category.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

My Finals memories are.. The Flu Game, Hakeem Olajuwon looking like one of the 5 greatest players of all time, Magic Sky Hook, and Allen Iverson stepping over Tyronne Lue (also how Lue was allowed to grab and hold onto Iverson in the other games).

I remember this great replay from one of the Olajuwon Finals games. The camera is zoomed in from behind the opposing baseline, but elevated so you can't even see below the oopsing 3 point line. Olajuwon inbounds the ball and hustles down court and offscreen. Suddenly the guy bringing it up court gets pressured into a turn over. The opponent start running back the other way unopposed...

...and then you see Olajuwon's head appear at the bottom of the screen, followed by the body, moving faster than a guy his size should. The opponent goes up for the lay-up just as Olajuwon gets close enough for his monstrous wingspan to to swat the shot into the crowd with massive authority.

He truly was one of the most graceful centers that ever was.

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

and about Jordan, Simmons mentions how bad of a teammate Kobe is often, but Jordan punched out Steve Kerr, fought with Cartwright constantly, and berated Rodney McCray so much that he lost all of his confidence (he was a decent player before arriving to Chicago).. but I cant remember Jordan showing up his teammates during a game, like how kobe refused to shoot and passed to his teammates during a game where they needed Kobe to step up.

Exactly. Jordan made his points at practice. On the court you were a team. His team, to be sure, but you were working together.

It bears repeating, but Kobe lost any rights to Jordan comparisons back in 06 when he mailed in that second half of the Game 7 game with Phoenix. A competitor never stop competing.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Not the best running diary he's done (Uh, Bill, you do know you're supposed to list game time for reference, not daytime that is twice as confusing thanks to timezones...


Still, nice and evil quote:

Just when I thought this couldn't get any better, they just cut to a replay of Vujacic punching a chair and fighting back tears on the bench. That wasn't just the best moment of the Celtics season, I think it was the best moment of my life.

[Jawbone54]

Another Kobe quote:

"They were determined not to let me beat them tonight," Kobe said. "I saw three, four bodies every time I touched the ball."

Apparently sending Paul Pierce to shut him down equates to Boston triple and quadruple-teaming him.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Apparently sending Paul Pierce to shut him down equates to Boston triple and quadruple-teaming him.

He was on him so much he probably thought he saw three or four guys.