[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

They might as well use VHS then. Oh, wait. That died. Why? Because DVD looked and sounded better.

Thank you Captain Hyperbole.

[starman]

So....DVD doesn't look and sound better? Huh. You might want to warn people about that and tell them that VHS is 'good enough'.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by starman 

OK, fine, but it's still 720p and might not have 5.1

Blu-Ray movies are 1080p and unless it's a mono movie, it's probably going to be in 5.1 guaranteed.

What if your friend doesn't have a 1080p set and/or surround sound system? Do you carry your 1080p tv and surround sound system with you too? Maybe get friends that do have a 1080p set and surround sound system? Most of my friends don't have 1080p set or surround sound systems.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by starman 

So....DVD doesn't look and sound better? Huh. You might want to warn people about that and tell them that VHS is 'good enough'.

No, I just find it hilarious you're comparing a digital iTunes file to VHS. But carry on.

[hyteckit]

I don't know why some here think everyone in the US is so eager to get 1080p. Seriously, there isn't that much interest.

It'll probably take at least another 5 years for 1080p TV sets to reach an adoption rate of 50% of US households. See how much the US population panics when we switch over to Digital broadcasting.

Here's an article published on Aug 2007 about how much people are interested in HDTV. Only 13% of the US population is extremely interested or very interested in HDTV, while 55% of the US population says they are not very interested or not at all interested.

U.S. households with little or no interest in HDTV on the rise, In-Stat says

The percentage of U.S. households that said they were interested in HDTVs fell this year compared to those who expressed an interest last year, and the number or those reporting to have little or no interest has grown, according to a series of studies from market research firm In-Stat.
....
They’re also putting the 1080p in there. Realistically, 1080p is most optimal for 50in or bigger where you get the benefits of that higher resolution.
....
whereas in North America it was around 13 percent selecting the top two responses related to interest and 55 percent selecting the bottom two.
.....
It was “extremely interested” and “very interested” for the top two and “not very interested” and “not at all interested” would be the bottom two.

[hyteckit]

40% of HDTV owners are not watching hidef programming.

Study: Large Number of HD Owners Not� Watching HD

Roughly 40 percent of High-Definition TV owners are not watching high-def programming.
....
However, previous studies have indicated that some HD owners are content with watching standard-def DVDs on their sets while others are not aware they need HD tuners to watch HD programming.
....
And, as Leichtman points out, many high-def owners think they are watching HD when they are not.
....
The company also found that about 25 percent of U.S. households now have at least one HDTV-capable set -- double the penetration of two years ago.
....
But consumer confusion over high-def still remains high, the study says. For instance, about 40 percent of HDTV owners believe that they now own High-Definition DVD players when the real number is less than five percent.
....

[exca1ibur]

Seems everyone is proving that we have peaked and nothing should ever be improved. SDTV and 2.0 Digital Sound forever, baby!

[CaptainHaddock]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

In Australia, number of standalone units sold through Nov. 2007.

Bluray: 2241
HDDVD: 609

Wow, it's not about who's winning. They're both losing.

One of those formats will be a success once PS3 sales are a small percentage of player sales rather than the overwhelming majority.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Seems everyone is proving that we have peaked and nothing should ever be improved. SDTV and 2.0 Digital Sound forever, baby!

I think the question is moreover what exactly it is that needs to be improved. People making the DVD comparisons seem to be forgetting that image quality was hardly the only advantage DVD's had. DVD's didn't warp like tape did, they didn't need to be rewound, and they were smaller to store. I'd be willing to bet a lot of consumers moved to DVD for the lack of need to be rewound alone.

Making everything a case of image quality is shortsighted. After all, the iTunes Store sells music that's less than half the quality of a CD, and most consumers don't care, and they don't even really notice.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Demand for hidef standalone players outside the US. Look at these pathetic numbers in Europe.

Cin�motion : HD-DVD - Blu-Ray - Plasma - Lcd - Projecteur

From 2006 to July 2007, number of players sold

UK
Bluray: 1662
HDDVD: 4306
Dual: 17

France
Bluray: 1412
HDDVD: 3569
Dual: 36

Germany
Bluray: 941
HDDVD: 3908
Dual: 14

Italy
Bluray: 854
HDDVD: 790
Dual: 38

Spain
Bluray: 386
HDDVD: 231
Dual: 15

Switzerland
Bluray: 214
HDDVD: 790

Total
Bluray: 5,469
HDDVD: 13,186
Dual: 120

Wow. That's totally pathetic.

P.S. I guess that's where the "HD DVD is leading in Europe" came from. They were leading in standalone hardware sales, but losing in software sales (because of the PS3).

I wonder what the numbers are like for all of 2007 though.

[exca1ibur]

These numbers, as usual, don't include the PS3, thats why the offset. This makes the attach rate, some seem to be caught on, seem very insane.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

These numbers, as usual, don't include the PS3, thats why the offset. This makes the attach rate, some seem to be caught on, seem very insane.

As it says, they are the hi def STANDALONE numbers. The PS3 is not a standalone.

[Dakar the Fourth]

The latter part of his post would be the more important point.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

The latter part of his post would be the more important point.

Thank you, THAT was my point. Some seem to have missed it.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Thank you, THAT was my point. Some seem to have missed it.

From what I can tell the point of this thread is to harass people on minor details while missing the big picture.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

From what I can tell the point of this thread is to harass people on minor details while missing the big picture.

And unfortunately very very few people are innocent of this in this thread.

I am amazed so many people take this so seriously. I mean seriously. I an afraid to ask them their opinions on coke classic vs' new coke. I'm afraid war would break out.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I an afraid to ask them their opinions on coke classic vs' new coke. I'm afraid war would break out.

I'll give you a check for $5 if you start a Coke vs. Pepsi thread.
Check will not be honored.

[goMac]

CNN wrote up something on AppleTV vs. Bluray:

Could Apple TV win format war? - CNN.com

[starman]

Lame piece. It didn't bring up half the concerns that are in this thread in the last few days.

Apple TV also lets you transfer rented movies to other devices

Really? Like...HD on my iPod? The HD stuff is in 1080?

Not much of an "Apple TV vs. Blu-Ray" article.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by goMac 

CNN wrote up something on AppleTV vs. Bluray:

Could Apple TV win format war? - CNN.com

Psh, obviously he's an idiot since he didn't even mention 1080p and how the aTV can't do it.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I almost want Dvorak's take on that, just for hilarity's sake.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I almost want Dvorak's take on that, just for hilarity's sake.

You should listen to TWiT:

The TWiT Netcast Network with Leo Laporte

[analogue SPRINKLES]

New Blu-ray 2.0 spec makes PS3 the most future-proof player

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by starman 

You should listen to TWiT:

Already do, but thank you.

[cSurfr]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Is it true you can't download HD movies through iTunes? If so, that's really stupid.



If it's film grain, then you can't really blame the format (Blu-ray or HD DVD).

Don't think that I'm blaming either format. . . I was just asking if anyone else had experienced the same thing with that title.

[PaperNotes]

It's like these HD-DVD fanboys don't even care that Toshiba illegally sold American silent submarine technology to the Russians. Just go yack yack yack about evil old Sony to protect your cheapo investment in a lame Toshiba HD-DVD player until this thread reaches more pages than Kevin's posts.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's like these HD-DVD fanboys don't even care that Toshiba illegally sold American silent submarine technology to the Russians.

...and this thread just went to a new level.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

PS3 moves nearly 800k in December according to NPD - PS3 Fanboy

[ort888]

From Wiki...

In 1987, the company was accused of illegally selling CNC milling machines used to produce very quiet submarine propellers to the Soviet Union in violation of the CoCom agreement, an international embargo on Western exports to East Bloc countries. The Toshiba-Kongsberg scandal involved a subsidiary of Toshiba and the Norwegian company Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk. The incident strained relations between the United States and Japan, and resulted in the arrest and prosecution of two senior executives, as well as the imposition of sanctions on the company by both countries.[2] The US had always relied on the fact that the Soviets had noisy boats, so technology that would make the USSR's submarines harder to detect created a significant threat to America's security. Senator John Heinz of Pennsylvania said "What Toshiba and Kongsberg did was ransom the security of the United States for $517 million."

Interesting.

I also find the last quote somewhat humorous... because in my mind it reads...

"What Toshiba and Kongsberg did was ransom the security of the United States for $517 million, when we obviously would have paid more."

[goMac]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's like these HD-DVD fanboys don't even care that Toshiba illegally sold American silent submarine technology to the Russians. Just go yack yack yack about evil old Sony to protect your cheapo investment in a lame Toshiba HD-DVD player until this thread reaches more pages than Kevin's posts.

I myself have never bought any Macs with IBM processors in them because they sold computers to the Nazis.

(Yes, the above post was sarcastic...)

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

New Blu-ray 2.0 spec makes PS3 the most future-proof player

It's funny. Sony devices never seem to have issues with new features of Bluray. PSP movie transfer... new versions of the Bluray spec... it's almost like Sony is engineering things so only people with Sony products can really take advantage of Bluray.

Naw, that's just crazy talk.

[icruise]

So you're saying that Sony's older standalone players have no trouble with the new profiles? Because I didn't think that was the case.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

It's funny. Sony devices never seem to have issues with new features of Bluray. PSP movie transfer... new versions of the Bluray spec... it's almost like Sony is engineering things so only people with Sony products can really take advantage of Bluray.

Naw, that's just crazy talk.

Yeah, that's crazy talk. It's really that Sony has the number 1-selling player and one of the best selling standalones, and of course Sony controls much of the Blu-ray tech in the first place to a large extent. It's pretty obvious that the authoring companies are going to target the more common players from the bigger companies.

For example, Canada's biggest Blu-ray authoring company had only a few Blu-ray players and of course 1 of them was the PS3. Apparently this is the norm. Even when there are say only 6 players out there, a reasonably sized authoring company won't necessarily buy all 6 players for testing.

Originally Posted by icruise 

So you're saying that Sony's older standalone players have no trouble with the new profiles? Because I didn't think that was the case.

Sony's older standalones can't do the new profiles, but at least they should work with the movie itself (and not the advanced extras). However, some Blu-ray players can't deal with the new discs at all. For example, Samsung players simply choke on some newer titles. Nothing works, not even the main movie itself. This should be correctable with a firmware update, but Samsung has been slow to respond. Same goes for some other players.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

It's like these HD-DVD fanboys don't even care that Toshiba illegally sold American silent submarine technology to the Russians. Just go yack yack yack about evil old Sony to protect your cheapo investment in a lame Toshiba HD-DVD player until this thread reaches more pages than Kevin's posts.

Care to explain what is "lame" about the Toshiba XA-2 HD-DVD player (or any Toshiba HD-DVD player), other than the fact that HD-DVD appears to have lost the format war? I'm just wondering if that (HD-DVD bashing) is the only point of your post or if you had something specific in mind.

And I don't think Sony is evil, in fact, I own a PS3.

[exca1ibur]

I hope PlayTV makes it to the US. This is why I am holding out for an Hi-def DVR.

Clips: Europe's PS3 PlayTV

[analogue SPRINKLES]

What have we here. Yet another thing I said would be an issue with steaming movies which GoMac didn't take seriously.

5-40 gig caps? Good luck with AppleTV.

Electronista | Time Warner caps to top 40GB, hurt movies?

[exca1ibur]

AOL The Return...

Welcome back to 1990. Tiered paying internet service.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

What have we here. Yet another thing I said would be an issue with steaming movies which GoMac didn't take seriously.

5-40 gig caps? Good luck with AppleTV.

Electronista | Time Warner caps to top 40GB, hurt movies?

I doubt this will pan out, this is just in a small town in Texas right now... Comcast and FIOS don't offer caps.

Besides, if these caps actually go nationwide, movie downloads will hardly be the only thing affected.

(BTW, just so you know, the Cable companies are in talks right now about going faster than 100 Mb/s.)

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I doubt this will pan out, this is just in a small town in Texas right now... Comcast and FIOS don't offer caps.

Right, with your track record with predictions I'll take that with a grain of salt.

[brassplayersrock²]

lol

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Right, with your track record with predictions I'll take that with a grain of salt.

How's that PS3 market share doing? Nintendo must be about ready to close up shop like you predicted...

[cjrivera]

And now a few words from our sponsor...
YouTube
YouTube

(This thread reminded me of these commercials....)

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

How's that PS3 market share doing? Nintendo must be about ready to close up shop like you predicted...

Pff, you're way off on that one. And the PS3 is doing just as I predicted thanks

[OldManMac]

Blu-ray's apparent victory may only be temporary, according to this.

Could Apple TV 2.0 End the High-Def Format War? MacWorld 2008 Analysis - Popular Mechanics

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Blu-ray's apparent victory may only be temporary, according to this.

Could Apple TV 2.0 End the High-Def Format War? MacWorld 2008 Analysis - Popular Mechanics

Even if it turns out to be true at least BR makes some money between now and then unlike poor old HD-DVD.

[icruise]

Until you can actually purchase HD movies instead of renting them, I don't see how people can even compare AppleTV with optical formats.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

I'm amazed people keep chiming in every few pages of this thread with the AppleTV thing, like that's quite the same thing as owning a disc with 1080p content. I know quite a few peeps with 1080p equipment who've NEVER seen an actual 1080p image on it, simply because they're waiting for the stupid format war to blow over and invest in the winning format. I don't think the AppleTV is quite what most have been waiting for.

As time progresses, I can't really imagine the industry will go backward in quality, rather than forward, so I'd have to believe that 1080p will become more standard, not less. Why would people settle for less than the optimal quality their equipment can display? Otherwise, why even sell 1080p capable TVs, and why is anyone buying them?

I'm not saying 720p content may not look fine on 1080p equipment, just that it seems a little silly to pretend that investing in a 720p downloaded "library", tied to 720p hardware is "the winner" in what's already a 1080p age. It smacks of "too little, too late" to me, if you're gonna try and toss the AppleTV into the ring.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

As time progresses, I can't really imagine the industry will go backward in quality, rather than forward...

Why not? The music industry went backward in quality. Is it so hard to believe there is actually a point that can be reached where for your average consumer the quality is good enough?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Why not? The music industry went backward in quality. Is it so hard to believe there is actually a point that can be reached where for your average consumer the quality is good enough?

If 720p were "good enough" for everyone, why would anyone be buying 1080p equipment?

I'm not saying 720p isn't "good enough" for a lot of people. Of course it is. I'm sure the AppleTV is great, and will sell well. But trying to claim that a 720p device "wins" in a battle fought between two higher quality formats is just a bit silly to me. If people didn't really want 1080p content eventually, why would 1080p even be a selling point of new TVs? Who buys the higher quality/ more expensive sets, just to say, "Ahh yes! The reason I bought this is so I could forever settle for 'good enough'."

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Why not? The music industry went backward in quality. Is it so hard to believe there is actually a point that can be reached where for your average consumer the quality is good enough?

(smacks forehead)

Your arguments get less and less logical.

[aristotles]

Ok, so according to hyteckit, goMac and the rest of the HD DVD turned 720p downloads peanut gallery, nobody needs 1080p and yet a lot of people around the world (the US!=the world) are buying 1080p HDTV's, 1080p blu-ray players (including the PS3), 1080i HD Cableboxes/PVRs and a lot of 1080p physical media.

If nobody needs or wants 1080p then why is Walmart now selling 1080p LCD and rear projection TV sets below 800 CAD?

It's time to put down the crack pipe and the red Koolaid and face reality. The buying public has chosen Blu-ray as the next generation format and there was no payoff. Even if you want to continue to ignore the 2:1 disc sales lead all last year, you cannot ignore the 5:1 or greater lead in the rest of the world. The world does not revolve around the US anymore. All those international sales pushed Warner to blu-ray and there was no payoff and no Fox deal. It was a hoax just like the Disney rumor.

How are you HD DVD supporters spinning the 85:15 win for this week in the US? To put this into perspective, the average world ratio is now 7:1 in favor of Blu-ray. The fat lady is warming up as we speak.