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Legality question - Bittorents
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Full-Auto
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Feb 3, 2008, 12:14 PM
 
I have a question about the legality of downloading broadcast television shows to watch on my iPhone.

I'm new to the whole Bittorent thing as of about 2 days ago. I've been a computer user and on the net most of my adult life, I've just never been into downloading video or music outside of iTunes. But iTunes doesn't have everything I'm looking for.

Now, I know music is illegal to download therefore I don't. I'm 40 years old, an executive with an advertising agency and I have no interest in breaking copyright laws.

With all of that being said, I *thought* it would be ok to download television shows from Bittorent that are broadcast. I can record broadcast television shows with my Tivo and legally transfer those to my PC and then to my iPhone using Roxio. Since that method was legal I assumed cutting out the hassle of transferring files from my Tivo to my PC and just get what I want with my PC directly would also be legal.

I was told on another forum (and warned not to discuss it) that downloading television shows, not movies which I also know is illegal, is illegal. So, how is it legal to use Tivo to capture shows and move them around between devices if Bittorents of the same shows are illegal? Are they illegal?

Any insight would be appreciated. All I'm trying to do is take television with me each day for my commute into Chicago on the train... it gets boring don't ya know.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 12:18 PM
 
It's not legal.

The stuff you can record using your Tivo is free because it contains advertisements. If you get those programs via cable TV and TiVo them, then presumably you're paying for cable TV service, and you're also seeing the ads. With BitTorrent, neither of those two things apply.

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Feb 3, 2008, 12:34 PM
 
Actually, it doesn't have to do with the advertisements. That's a practical argument, but not the reason that it's illegal. Even a television show distributed with it's advertisements in tact would still be a violation.

The reason it's illegal has to do with distribution rights. Copyright law defines where and how a work can be displayed, shown, played, etc. The copyright holder gets to make those decisions. Television, music, film, etc distributed over a file-sharing system most likely does not have permission of the copyright holder. Even if you sent $5 for each work you downloaded to the copyright holder, it would still be a violation of copyright law. They would probably keep your money though.

Something that is legal though, is recording television off the air (or cable). From there the law is a bit sketchy on what you can do with it. So if you recorded it and converted it for use on an iPod, Mac, etc, you would probably be within the limits of the law.

P.S. I am not a Lawyer.
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Feb 3, 2008, 01:33 PM
 
First read up on the legal doctrine known as Fair Use, which is a limitation on copyrights. Secondly, realize that from the media cartel perspective there is no such thing as fair use (which is clearly wrong), and according to the cartels anything you do with their copyrighted material that is not explicitly authorized by them is infringement. Thirdly, the cartels usually target those who distribute a lot of their media rather than every single person downloading and sharing in small quantities, but nevertheless you have to accept a certain level of legal risk when you choose to download copyrighted material from Bittorrent, because there is the possibility that you could be targeted. The choice is yours.

IANAL
( Last edited by Big Mac; Feb 3, 2008 at 01:40 PM. )

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Feb 3, 2008, 02:06 PM
 
I'm still waiting for SOMEONE to tell me THE difference between downloading CSI via torrents and recording said episode of CSI on a VHS. What's gonna happen, every human being is going to be thrown in jail for copyright violations? That's been happening since VHS and Betamax came out, what? 30 odd years ago?

I download tv shows. If the MAN doesn't like it, stop broadcasting it over the airwaves for anyone with an antenna.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 02:07 PM
 
Well, I think it could be a little more complex that this. Fair use is not a limitation on copyrights, so much as a defense you can use to argue that your breach of copyright was 'fair'. It is not an automatic right, and is something that is heavily litigated.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by ctt1wbw View Post
I'm still waiting for SOMEONE to tell me THE difference between downloading CSI via torrents and recording said episode of CSI on a VHS. What's gonna happen, every human being is going to be thrown in jail for copyright violations? That's been happening since VHS and Betamax came out, what? 30 odd years ago?

I download tv shows. If the MAN doesn't like it, stop broadcasting it over the airwaves for anyone with an antenna.
The difference is in what the copyright holder has authorised. There does not have to be any sense or consistency in that. I would check out other ways of getting the content - libraries, video rental etc are also a good way to get this stuff.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 02:37 PM
 
Or a VCR, maybe?
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 02:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by ctt1wbw View Post
I'm still waiting for SOMEONE to tell me THE difference between downloading CSI via torrents and recording said episode of CSI on a VHS. What's gonna happen, every human being is going to be thrown in jail for copyright violations? That's been happening since VHS and Betamax came out, what? 30 odd years ago?

I download tv shows. If the MAN doesn't like it, stop broadcasting it over the airwaves for anyone with an antenna.
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Feb 3, 2008, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by ctt1wbw View Post
I'm still waiting for SOMEONE to tell me THE difference between downloading CSI via torrents and recording said episode of CSI on a VHS. What's gonna happen, every human being is going to be thrown in jail for copyright violations? That's been happening since VHS and Betamax came out, what? 30 odd years ago?

I download tv shows. If the MAN doesn't like it, stop broadcasting it over the airwaves for anyone with an antenna.
Morally most people don't think there is a difference (and those that do typically tend to be the copyright holders). Legally there is a difference, though.

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Feb 3, 2008, 02:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by ctt1wbw View Post
I'm still waiting for SOMEONE to tell me THE difference between downloading CSI via torrents and recording said episode of CSI on a VHS. What's gonna happen, every human being is going to be thrown in jail for copyright violations? That's been happening since VHS and Betamax came out, what? 30 odd years ago?

I download tv shows. If the MAN doesn't like it, stop broadcasting it over the airwaves for anyone with an antenna.
It's a matter of distribution. Distribution over the airwaves is allowed by the owner, distribution over bit torrent is not. Time shifting (VCR, TiVo) is a well established exception.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 03:15 PM
 
If it's not a matter of commercials (which does seems dubious to me) then I really don't understand how making a digital copy via Tivo is ok, and it's ok to transport the Tivo video to my iPhone but downloading the exact same program I have on my Tivo via bittorent is illegal. Argh...

It seems like one huge unknown legal mess.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Full-Auto View Post
If it's not a matter of commercials (which does seems dubious to me) then I really don't understand how making a digital copy via Tivo is ok, and it's ok to transport the Tivo video to my iPhone but downloading the exact same program I have on my Tivo via bittorent is illegal. Argh...
The difference, as has been mentioned, is that the copyright HOLDER (i.e. the TV station or production company) SAYS that it's okay.

They own the copyright; they get to decide.

If a copyright holder has some irrational fear of Australians and Austrians in particular, he can license distribution for every country in the world EXCEPT those two if he wants to - that's his prerogative.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 04:32 PM
 
I believe you are correct, but WHO does not use fast-fast-fast forward to get past those stupid ads? hehehehe

Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
It's not legal.

The stuff you can record using your Tivo is free because it contains advertisements. If you get those programs via cable TV and TiVo them, then presumably you're paying for cable TV service, and you're also seeing the ads. With BitTorrent, neither of those two things apply.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 04:51 PM
 
It's still not strictly legal, but the television industry seems to have a much better head on its shoulders about this kind of thing than the music industry does. I've actually heard of TV networks intentionally leaking shows onto popular trackers to build interest.

(This isn't a "You should" or "You shouldn't" to downloading — I just think the difference in approach is interesting.)
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Feb 3, 2008, 05:57 PM
 
Well, let's be realistic:

If you download music from torrents, you might get sued by the MI.
If you download recorded broadcasts, you will not get sued.

I'm not saying the latter is ok, but it seems like it's "less" bad.

-t
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
The difference, as has been mentioned, is that the copyright HOLDER (i.e. the TV station or production company) SAYS that it's okay.

They own the copyright; they get to decide.

If a copyright holder has some irrational fear of Australians and Austrians in particular, he can license distribution for every country in the world EXCEPT those two if he wants to - that's his prerogative.
Every single production company and copyright holder gave Tivo permission to record their shows? That's odd, I don't recall just some shows being available while the list of approved shows grew over time. I've been a Tivo owner since day one.

If that were true, then Tivo's line up would have evolved like iTunes. A few record companies and artists in the beginning which evolved in to countless over time - but still there are bands like the Beatles you can't get... but that's not the case with Tivo.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 06:42 PM
 
P.S. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm seriously trying to understand it. But if everyone is certain it's illegal I'll just stick to pulling stuff from Tivo.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Full-Auto View Post
Every single production company and copyright holder gave Tivo permission to record their shows? That's odd, I don't recall just some shows being available while the list of approved shows grew over time. I've been a Tivo owner since day one.

If that were true, then Tivo's line up would have evolved like iTunes. A few record companies and artists in the beginning which evolved in to countless over time - but still there are bands like the Beatles you can't get... but that's not the case with Tivo.
Huh?

A Tivo just records BROADCAST MATERIAL - directly from the TV stations, with whom the copyright holder has a distribution/broadcast licensing agreement.

It's broadcast, and you can record it. As mentioned in the thread, there is no legal difference between a Tivo and your father's old Betamax recorder.

Passing something along over the internet is a completely different distribution channel from over-the-air broadcast.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 07:18 PM
 
In practical terms, downloading a program that has been broadcast (as in "not exclusively released to a cable-only channel") is effectively the same as "time shifting" it by recording it to your VCR or DVR. I'd like a show of hands of everyone who actually sits through recorded commercials in programs they have recorded... That's what I thought. Nobody*.

As long as you use the results of your download to just watch the program and don't try to redistribute it (in some other medium like on DVD-I'm not talking about the normal "you're a seed when you're downloading" torrent thing), then you should be fine. Note that this is NOT legal advice, just practical advice.

*I have actually sat through recorded commercials, but that was when I was overseas and missing "interesting" commercials because AFN didn't have them-just a bunch of fillers so they would not actually present any real commercials.

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Feb 3, 2008, 09:17 PM
 
Exact legal technicalities aside, I personally feel that as long as you aren't downloading something that you don't have legal access to, you're in the karmic sweet spot.

I, for example, subscribe to a 300+ channel tv package but simply don't watch it much at all because the programming I want to see is rarely on when I have the time to watch it. Instead, I freely download as many bit torrent tv shows as I want so that I can watch them when it suits me best. The way I see it, I'm already paying for the ability to watch these shows and I'm already paying for my bandwidth - whether I watch the shows live, or download them from the internet shouldn't matter.

Now I know this won't hold any legal water if push comes to shove but what I would suggest is that if you are going to download TV content, sign up for a TV service - whether you watch it or not.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 09:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Full-Auto View Post
Every single production company and copyright holder gave Tivo permission to record their shows? That's odd, I don't recall just some shows being available while the list of approved shows grew over time. I've been a Tivo owner since day one.

If that were true, then Tivo's line up would have evolved like iTunes. A few record companies and artists in the beginning which evolved in to countless over time - but still there are bands like the Beatles you can't get... but that's not the case with Tivo.
Tivo is not giving you the shows — they just give you a device to record them. As far as I'm aware, it's the distribution of the show that's covered under copyright, which is something Tivo has nothing to do with. As long as you are legitimately accessing an authorized broadcast, you're OK. The difference is that distribution over BitTorrent is not authorized. Honesty, it's kind of silly hair-splitting, but that's the case as best I can tell.

Personally, the only things I've ever downloaded are things I couldn't get otherwise. I find it kind of inconvenient to have to download things, and it's more pleasant watching things on a reasonably big TV screen rather than a 15-inch computer display.
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Feb 3, 2008, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I find it kind of inconvenient to have to download things, and it's more pleasant watching things on a reasonably big TV screen rather than a 15-inch computer display.
Wow, 15" computer screens ?

Welcome to the 1990s

-t
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 10:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
It's not legal.

The stuff you can record using your Tivo is free because it contains advertisements. If you get those programs via cable TV and TiVo them, then presumably you're paying for cable TV service, and you're also seeing the ads. With BitTorrent, neither of those two things apply.
To that effect, I'd really like to see someone start releasing TV bittorrents without removing the ads. It wouldn't work with music or movies, but it certainly could with television programs.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I find it kind of inconvenient to have to download things, and it's more pleasant watching things on a reasonably big TV screen rather than a 15-inch computer display.
For a guy that spends 3 hours a day on a train, I need my video to go. Slingbox isn't an option for me because I have spotty reception at best while on the train. I have to load video directly onto my iPhone.
     
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Feb 3, 2008, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Wow, 15" computer screens ?

Welcome to the 1990s
Yeah, who would release a computer like that in this day and age?
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Feb 4, 2008, 12:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
To that effect, I'd really like to see someone start releasing TV bittorrents without removing the ads. It wouldn't work with music or movies, but it certainly could with television programs.
Why?
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, let's be realistic:

If you download music from torrents, you might get sued by the MI.
If you download recorded broadcasts, you will not get sued.

I'm not saying the latter is ok, but it seems like it's "less" bad.

-t
HBO has brought lawsuits against TV show downloaders. I received a DMCA notice from them after downloading an episode of Entourage. Guess it didn't matter that I subscribed to HBO at the time (canceled soon after that letter).

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Feb 4, 2008, 12:32 AM
 
Recording something off of broadcast is different than getting a copy from someone else on the internet.

Saying it is the same is rather silly. Recording something off TV and then making copies for hundreds of thousands of strangers would be the same. And then you become a distributor. And that ain't fair use. Even if you are doing it for free.

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Feb 4, 2008, 12:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
HBO has brought lawsuits against TV show downloaders. I received a DMCA notice from them after downloading an episode of Entourage. Guess it didn't matter that I subscribed to HBO at the time (canceled soon after that letter).
I did not know that.

They go after the *DOWNLOADERS* ?
Even the RIAA doesn't target downloaders, as much as they do *UPLOADERS*.

I can't think that the fines for downloading would be very high. The uploaders are on the hook for several thousands of infringements. But a downloader would only be responsible for one.

-t
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 12:50 AM
 
A guy I work with got a nasty letter from HBO as well. It does happen.

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Feb 4, 2008, 01:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Personally, the only things I've ever downloaded are things I couldn't get otherwise. I find it kind of inconvenient to have to download things, and it's more pleasant watching things on a reasonably big TV screen rather than a 15-inch computer display.
+

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Feb 4, 2008, 02:47 AM
 
These are some of my issues. I realize all of these might technically be illegal, however I have no moral objections to them.

I have an EYETV which I use a OTA antenna to get the basic channels. Those would be FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS and the CW. I'm not a huge TV fan, so that's typically enough for me. I like Lost, the occasional episode of House, etc. If you are going to keep putting videos on your iPhone EyeTV works very well for me.

Here are the "issues" I run into.

1. I record Lost every week. However one episode missed a sizable chunk due to bad weather. So what's wrong with me downloading the episode to make up for that? My EYETV edits out the commercials totally anyway, so that's not an issue.

2. What if I own the DVD set of Lost Season 1. However I would rather watch it in HD. I will happily buy it when Lost season 1 of Blu Ray comes out, until then I see no reason not to download it. I paid for the DVD's so I'm getting in trouble for "stealing" a few hundred extra pixels of Locke's face?

I personally would never download shows I don't have access to. However I feel that if I can get a show free OTA, then it's no big deal to download those same shows.
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 03:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
+
An old CRT TV + a computer that I have no interest in buying = ?
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Feb 4, 2008, 03:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
Here are the "issues" I run into.

1. I record Lost every week. However one episode missed a sizable chunk due to bad weather. So what's wrong with me downloading the episode to make up for that? My EYETV edits out the commercials totally anyway, so that's not an issue.

2. What if I own the DVD set of Lost Season 1. However I would rather watch it in HD. I will happily buy it when Lost season 1 of Blu Ray comes out, until then I see no reason not to download it. I paid for the DVD's so I'm getting in trouble for "stealing" a few hundred extra pixels of Locke's face?

I personally would never download shows I don't have access to. However I feel that if I can get a show free OTA, then it's no big deal to download those same shows.
Again, the problem is not your having the content. The problem is that the content is being distributed in an unapproved manner. It's the control of the media that's important.
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Feb 4, 2008, 03:41 AM
 
Yep - as has been pointed out several times, the issue is what the copyright holder has approved. It does not make an difference whether you can rationalize it, or anything else. It does not need to make sense - the only issue in law is whether the copyright holder authorized you to acquire it in that way.
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 08:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
An old CRT TV + a computer that I have no interest in buying = ?
Wooosh.

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Feb 4, 2008, 09:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Wooosh.
Yep, it looks like Chuck missed the link... I didn't-thanks!

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Feb 4, 2008, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I did not know that.

They go after the *DOWNLOADERS* ?
Even the RIAA doesn't target downloaders, as much as they do *UPLOADERS*.

I can't think that the fines for downloading would be very high. The uploaders are on the hook for several thousands of infringements. But a downloader would only be responsible for one.

-t
Well by torrenting shows you are automatically uploading them, which was why I received the notice.

And actually I take it back - they aren't suing anybody, they're just sending out DMCA notices to ISP to people torrenting their programs. [edit - well there was profanity in that URL, so try this: Stop downloading shit! � The Gospel of Tallin ]

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Feb 4, 2008, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Full-Auto View Post
For a guy that spends 3 hours a day on a train, I need my video to go. Slingbox isn't an option for me because I have spotty reception at best while on the train. I have to load video directly onto my iPhone.
Try one of these!
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 11:42 AM
 
It's not legal because you are allowed to make a copy of the show from your broadcast for your personal use. The law does not allow unauthorized rebroadcasts of the show, which Bittorrent is akin to.
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Feb 4, 2008, 12:13 PM
 
You could see if your show is on iTunes and buy it from there.
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Feb 4, 2008, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Yep, it looks like Chuck missed the link... I didn't-thanks!
Oh, indeed I did. Now that I see it, though, I'm still not sure what that would do for me. It doesn't appear to make my screen any bigger or make downloading much less trouble (unless I simply couldn't find a tracker for a show before). Thanks for the link anyway, though, Erik. It's an interesting program that I'm sure would be useful to somebody else.
( Last edited by Chuckit; Feb 4, 2008 at 12:48 PM. )
Chuck
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Feb 4, 2008, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Try one of these!
I don't like to sleep on the train.
     
Uriel
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Feb 4, 2008, 06:06 PM
 
Again, the problem is not your having the content. The problem is that the content is being distributed in an unapproved manner. It's the control of the media that's important.
Oh I'm very aware of the legality of my issues. I just find it very odd. I follow the rules for now. I just find it infuriating. Heck, if I could just get HD shows off iTunes with 5.1 I would be happy. I just hate that there is no place for me to PURCHASE HD TV shows directly through my computer. I'm not paying more than $2 an episode though when it's free OTA.
     
analogika
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Feb 4, 2008, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
Oh I'm very aware of the legality of my issues. I just find it very odd. I follow the rules for now. I just find it infuriating. Heck, if I could just get HD shows off iTunes with 5.1 I would be happy. I just hate that there is no place for me to PURCHASE HD TV shows directly through my computer. I'm not paying more than $2 an episode though when it's free OTA.
It's not "free" OTA.

The misconception is that you aren't the customer - the station is selling YOU TO the advertisers. THEY are paying for the programme.

IOW, if you buy a show rather than watching it on TV, part of the cost is used to offset the revenue that ads *would* have generated.

It's the same misconception people have of the iPhone - YOU aren't the customer. Apple is selling YOU TO the carrier.
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 06:54 PM
 
^ I thought human trade was illegal?
     
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Feb 4, 2008, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Oh, indeed I did. Now that I see it, though, I'm still not sure what that would do for me. It doesn't appear to make my screen any bigger or make downloading much less trouble (unless I simply couldn't find a tracker for a show before). Thanks for the link anyway, though, Erik. It's an interesting program that I'm sure would be useful to somebody else.
It makes TV Shows as easy and painless to subscribe to as Podcasts. How again does it not make things easier?

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Chuckit
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Feb 4, 2008, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
It makes TV Shows as easy and painless to subscribe to as Podcasts. How again does it not make things easier?
Well, copying and pasting a torrent file into Transmission is not the part that's a hassle — or at least, it's not the only part. It's the time it takes to download and sufficiently reseed the file, during which I can't move my computer, disconnect the external HD or do much else that requires use of my Internet connection (unless I want it to take even longer).
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Feb 4, 2008, 08:43 PM
 
Sounds like a connection/logistics issue for you. My media center, which happens to be my iMac is always running torrents 24/7. But in your situation you would have problems with podcasts too.

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