[grover432]

I'm considering a Mac Pro for video editing and DVD creation. I use DVD Remaster to create DVD copies and find that a full quality remaster of a commercial DVD takes 11 hours on my G5 2.1Mhz iMac (3 years old). Given the cost of a Mac Pro, I'd like to buy just after any upcoming refresh, rather than just before. A couple of months after I bought my current iMac, a new Intel version was announced.

Any idea when the Mac Pro will be refreshed?

Thanks,

grover

[tooki]

The Mac Pros don't get major updates often; the last major refresh was in January 08, with only trivial changes over more than one year before. It's extremely unlikely something major will come soon, though there is the possibility of incremental updates (like HD size and graphics card options).

[Locutus27]

Here is another view on the subject...Of course nobody really knows when the timing will be right for Apple's next revision but its food for thought if you can wait for the next revision. IM still using a first generation PowerMacintosh DP G5 2.0Ghz. My next purchase will be a MacPro next year for sure. I love my Wife's Macbook 2.16...

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro

Product Mac Pro
Recommendation: Don't Buy - Updates soon
Last Release January 08, 2008
Days Since Update 234 (Avg = 217)

[mduell]

My best estimate is the fourth quarter; possibly as early as September or as late as January.
It's going to be a substantial upgrade to the Nehalem architecture: higher bandwidth/lower latency memory, significantly improved performance at the same clockrate (~+30%), higher memory ceiling, plus the usual marginal GPU/HDD/RAM bumps.

Originally Posted by tooki 

the last major refresh was in January 08, with only trivial changes over more than one year before. It's extremely unlikely something major will come soon

Double the cores, higher performance per clock, and higher clockrates wasn't substantial? Nehalem isn't something major?? Pass the admin emeritus crackpipe please.

[goMac]

Nothing until at least January.

[Simon]

November-February.

Gainestown (I'm not putting my money on Beckton yet) plus Tylersburg WS/EP should be ready in November. In principle Apple could go right ahead with the launch. January is usually pretty consumer-heavy so if they don't launch it before the first week of December I'm guessing it will be February.

[synthfiend]

Watch out, he'll ban you.

[Gareth Johnston]

Well it took over 500 days for the last true update to occur. Since the Intel change the mac rumours guide is a crock.

January at the earliest.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Double the cores, higher performance per clock, and higher clockrates wasn't substantial? Nehalem isn't something major?? Pass the admin emeritus crackpipe please.

What I meant is that the Mac Pro has gotten only one major update. All the others have been incremental updates. Yes, if you compare the first Mac Pro model to the last one before the update, it's a lot. But each update along the way didn't change much at all. And before the January 08 model, about a year had passed with no CPU update at all.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Gareth Johnston 

Well it took over 500 days for the last true update to occur. Since the Intel change the mac rumours guide is a crock.

Exactly. It's no longer on a reliable rhythm.

[grover432]

I think I'll wait until the end of the 4th quarter. I'm sure we'll have heard more by then. Thanks.

[P]

Macworld (ie early January). Apple will not stress its logistics system with an update in November-December - they need to push iPods into customer's hands.

[SierraDragon]

The good news is that current MPs are excellent; even the 2006 MPs are still excellent. But as long as you can wait until the end of Q4, wait another 2 weeks until Mac Expo SF in early January.

-Allen Wicks

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Simon 

(I'm not putting my money on Beckton yet)

Agreed; I don't see a 4 socket market that Apple would want to move in to.

[NumberTwo]

Well, taking seriously the idea that you could be waiting forever for new machines, I've taken the plunge. My first Mac Pro is on its way. 2 x 3.2GHz Quad-Core + 2 x 30" displays. I've only ever had iMacs so far, so can't wait ;-)

[Gee4orce]

Originally Posted by NumberTwo 

Well, taking seriously the idea that you could be waiting forever for new machines, I've taken the plunge. My first Mac Pro is on its way. 2 x 3.2GHz Quad-Core + 2 x 30" displays. I've only ever had iMacs so far, so can't wait ;-)

Phew ! Well, I'm jealous !

I'm also in the market for a Mac Pro - though my needs are more modest and a minimal Quad config will probably do me fine. I'm even considering an iMac.

I'd be interested to hear how you find you new machine though.

[Gee4orce]

Originally Posted by tooki 

Exactly. It's no longer on a reliable rhythm.

I'm not so sure - since the Intel transition it's been a pretty reliable 8 months between revisions. The last update was January, so that puts the next one...right about now

I was about the push the button on a new Mac Pro purchase, but I think I'll hang fire....

[glideslope]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Nothing until at least January.

Agreed.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce 

I'm not so sure - since the Intel transition it's been a pretty reliable 8 months between revisions. The last update was January, so that puts the next one...right about now .

I don't agree with that. The January 08 revision was the first architectural revision of the Mac Pro (667->800MHz RAM, new chipset), the revision before that added the 8-core option, but all the other configurations stayed the same, including pricing. I don't consider it an "update" until the whole product line shifts. There were no updates before that. It's really 18 months that passed between meaningful updates (i.e. updates where you got more for your money).

Consequently, I don't expect anything major in the Mac Pro any time soon.

Edit: the January 08 release is why I waited till then to buy my Mac Pro.

[Gee4orce]

Hmm. OK. It certainly doesn't look as if the next gen Intel chips are ready to go anytime soon - I'm hearing November.

I can't see a Pro being introduced at MacWorld as it's a consumer-oriented show. I doubt there's going to be something just before the holidays either, as they'll be focussing on iPods and the (hopefully) new Macbooks. Hmmm.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by tooki 

I don't agree with that. The January 08 revision was the first architectural revision of the Mac Pro (667->800MHz RAM, new chipset), the revision before that added the 8-core option, but all the other configurations stayed the same, including pricing. I don't consider it an "update" until the whole product line shifts. There were no updates before that. It's really 18 months that passed between meaningful updates (i.e. updates where you got more for your money).

Consequently, I don't expect anything major in the Mac Pro any time soon.

Do you really think Apple is going to sit on their thumbs for 6+ months while their competitors release workstations significantly faster CPUs, more memory, etc in the same price range? In the PPC days the historical release intervals were all we had to go on, but with Intel there is a detailed, published roadmap of what's coming and when.

Originally Posted by Gee4orce 

Hmm. OK. It certainly doesn't look as if the next gen Intel chips are ready to go anytime soon - I'm hearing November.

November for the desktop parts (which Apple will promptly ignore), but this month for the 2 socket workstation/server parts.

[shawmanus]

It could happen 2 ways.

1) Apple negotiates with Intel to get High clock rate CPU's earlier than marketplace. Then they could potentially release gainestown based Mac pro within 30 days.
2) Apple waits for Nehalem to release and is available in large volumes. Then we can expect Jan/Feb release date.


mduell,
why do u think we will see 30% clock boost. Harpertown cpus used in mac pro are between 2.8 and 3.2ghz. Currently highest Nehalem is still expected to be 3.2ghz. Do u think gainestown will have that much higher clockspeed than bloomsfield..

Also we will only see quad core like harpertown. They do support hyperthreading but I dont think we can consider hyperthreading as another core.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by shawmanus 

It could happen 2 ways.

1) Apple negotiates with Intel to get High clock rate CPU's earlier than marketplace. Then they could potentially release gainestown based Mac pro within 30 days.
2) Apple waits for Nehalem to release and is available in large volumes. Then we can expect Jan/Feb release date.

If they've negotiated for early parts, why would they wait until everyone else releases?
If they wait for volume availability, why would they wait another 2-4 months to release?

Originally Posted by shawmanus 

why do u think we will see 30% clock boost. Harpertown cpus used in mac pro are between 2.8 and 3.2ghz. Currently highest Nehalem is still expected to be 3.2ghz. Do u think gainestown will have that much higher clockspeed than bloomsfield..

I never said anything about a 30% clockrate boost.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Do you really think Apple is going to sit on their thumbs for 6+ months while their competitors release workstations significantly faster CPUs, more memory, etc in the same price range? In the PPC days the historical release intervals were all we had to go on, but with Intel there is a detailed, published roadmap of what's coming and when.

Sure, why not? Mac Pro prices didn't change for 18 months.

[Gee4orce]

Originally Posted by mduell 

November for the desktop parts (which Apple will promptly ignore), but this month for the 2 socket workstation/server parts.

Where are you getting this information ? I can't find anything saying it's on schedule for release this month....

I assume you're talking about Gainstown, and that you're expecting these to end up in the Mac Pro (seems reasonable, given that's what happened with Xeons).

If this is true, I need to cancel the Mac Pro I just ordered

Edit: found this http://www.tomshardware.com/news/int...ield,5968.html

ARGH ! buying a Mac used to be simple

[ebuddy]

Just 5 days ago baby!!!

Granted, August 2006, dual-2.66GHz Mac Pro, but it's new and that's good enough for me.

[nikstar101]

It would be good to have an update of the Mac Pros sooner rather than later.

Maybe Apple will just announce new Mac Pros with a shipping time sometime in the future. I know that this generally kills current sales but since there are rumours that the Nehalem is going to be ready in Sept, they wouldn't have to wait that long.

Plus i want Blu-Ray and HDCP support.

[tooki]

I don't expect any architectural updates for another 6-12 months. I think at some point we'll see Blu-Ray (Apple is on the Blu-Ray standards committee), and maybe some CPU speed bumps, but that's it.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by tooki 

Sure, why not? Mac Pro prices didn't change for 18 months.

There's a huge difference between no price changes when Intel doesn't release any new chips (Apple used the price drops to pad their margin) and Apple not upgrading to Intel's new architecture for half a year or more.

Originally Posted by Gee4orce 

Where are you getting this information ? I can't find anything saying it's on schedule for release this month....

ARGH ! buying a Mac used to be simple

Wikipedia (whose source looks a little weak), but it appears the latest from IDF says both the desktop and workstation parts will launch at the same time (October is the best guess). I'm kind of surprised about the uncertainty here, Intel's launch dates are often known to the day about a quarter in advance.

It was only "simple" in the sense that no one had any idea when the product launches would be because there was no public roadmap and few leaks with PPC.

Originally Posted by tooki 

I don't expect any architectural updates for another 6-12 months.

Ridiculous prediction.

[shawmanus]

Originally Posted by mduell 

If they've negotiated for early parts, why would they wait until everyone else releases?
If they wait for volume availability, why would they wait another 2-4 months to release?



I never said anything about a 30% clockrate boost.

Are u expecting Dell/HP to have gainestown based workstations/DP servers within 30 days. I have heard rumors that Intel is pulling forward nehalem release to late september. If that happens Apple could potentially be the 1st one out of the block. That is my 1st scenario and fairly unlikely one.

The most practical scenario is november release date. Then Apple waits for another couple of months so that there are sufficient volume. Most new intel cpu's specially on server side takes couple of months to ramp up. Apple was 2 months late on woodcrest and harpertown. For clovertown they were really late. So it is not hard to imagine that they will be 2-3 months late on nehalem.

Oops on 30%. U had talked about 30% clock for clock boost in performance. That would vary depending on tasks. There will be huge improvement on memory intensive tasks.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by shawmanus 

Are u expecting Dell/HP to have gainestown based workstations/DP servers within 30 days. I have heard rumors that Intel is pulling forward nehalem release to late september. If that happens Apple could potentially be the 1st one out of the block. That is my 1st scenario and fairly unlikely one.

Oops on 30%. U had talked about 30% clock for clock boost in performance. That would vary depending on tasks. There will be huge improvement on memory intensive tasks.

Yes, I expect Dell and HP to have Nehalem workstations out within 30 days of Intel's release. Apple is sometimes ahead of the curve but usually lags Intel's releases by about a month.

Right, it's an average.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Ridiculous prediction.

Why's that ridiculous? It took the Mac Pro about 18 months before it got its first and only architecture change so far.

[P]

Because we know that Nehalem server chips launch 4Q this year. They even have a name announced.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by tooki 

Why's that ridiculous? It took the Mac Pro about 18 months before it got its first and only architecture change so far.

Apple waited 18 months between the previous revisions because they didn't have a choice; Intel went 17 months from the 5000 series chipset to the 5400 series chipset. We know there's an (even bigger) architecture change coming from Intel before the end of the year. Sales will grind to a halt when they're down 30% on performance or up 50% on price.

Originally Posted by P 

Because we know that Nehalem server chips launch 4Q this year. They even have a name announced.

What's the marketing name for Gainestown/Nehalem-EP?

[shawmanus]

I will be stunned if intel stops using xeon branding. That has been very successful. The might do something like Xeon EP or something like that.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by mduell 

What's the marketing name for Gainestown/Nehalem-EP?

Core i7 Xeon perhaps. . . .

[P]

I was thinking of the Core i7 branding whne I wrote that, but I see now that it is only for "enthusiast" consumer CPUs - the ones with the same socket as the Xeons. There are no "Core i7 Xeon" badges floating around. In that case, I guess that the Nehalem server CPUs (I have mostly given up remembering the individual codenames) will be named Xeon 55xx or something like that.

Of course, I can hope that they will change it, since Intel's current scheme of four brand names (Celeron, Pentium, Core and Xeon) and one 3-6 position code for different variants of the same architechture seems somewhat redundant.

[grover432]

Sorry I started all of this.

I was interested in a Mac Pro for non commercial uses. I shoot a fair bit of HD video and edit it into home movies. I also like to rip my personal DVD collection and convert it to an Apple TV format for delivery to my AppleTV (OK, sometimes I download an avi that needs to be converted to .mp4 format).

I currently use a G5 2.1 20" with 1.5GB Ram and a 500GB HDD (which is almost full). Using Xilisoft software to convert a 2 hour DVD (.avi format) to Mp4 takes about 24 hours. If I am using Mac The Ripper first to get a store bought DVD to a readable format, I can add another 30 minutes to that. I'm a bit impatient and would like to speed the process up.

Maybe a properly configured current MacPro would do for me. Any experiences you can share about processing speeds with the current Mac Pro? Would the next generation make a giant leap forward or, would we most likely see incremental increases in performance?

For me, a MacPro purchae would have to be good for 3+ years.

[P]

Originally Posted by grover432 

Sorry I started all of this.

Don't be - if you check back a bit, you'll notice that it's pretty much the same people who show up again and again in these threads. I guess we all take any excuse to consider the discussion.

Anyway: Unless you seriously need to have a new Mac Pro before January, then wait. I suspect that Nehalem will be a quantum leap, if not as large as the Pentium 4 - Core 2 was. In addition, it will likely use DDR3, which is the coming memory standard that allows for higher bandwidth and denser memory banks (=higher max RAM).

[grover432]

P,

Can you comment on how long it would take a current MacPro to complete a DVD rip and encode as compared to the 24 hours it is taking my current iMac?

grover

[bearcatrp]

I can tell you I rip a movie anyware between 40 minutes to an hour (depending on movie) using handbrake on my 2Ghz mac pro with 8GB ram. My 24 inch iMac takes almost 3x as long. If you need one one, snag a refurb to save a few bucks. Thats what I did. You can always upgrade the processors later. The Nehalem looks to be a screamer but bet the price will be high to. I'll wait for reviews and tests to see if its worth upgrading. There wasn't that much of a speed increase between the 1st and 2nd generation mac pro's to justify upgrading for myself. I just wish the processors would drop in price so I can upgrade mine.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by grover432 

Sorry I started all of this.

You shouldn't be; if not here, we'd have the same discussion in another thread.

Originally Posted by grover432 

I was interested in a Mac Pro for non commercial uses. I shoot a fair bit of HD video and edit it into home movies. I also like to rip my personal DVD collection and convert it to an Apple TV format for delivery to my AppleTV (OK, sometimes I download an avi that needs to be converted to .mp4 format).

I currently use a G5 2.1 20" with 1.5GB Ram and a 500GB HDD (which is almost full). Using Xilisoft software to convert a 2 hour DVD (.avi format) to Mp4 takes about 24 hours. If I am using Mac The Ripper first to get a store bought DVD to a readable format, I can add another 30 minutes to that. I'm a bit impatient and would like to speed the process up.

Switch to Handbrake; it should not take a full day to convert a movie on your G5. For reference, it takes about an hour to convert a DVD with the Apple TV profile in Handbrake on a current Mac Pro.
H.264 encoding is one of the areas that Nehalem will show massive gains (~50%) over the current Xeons.

Originally Posted by grover432 

Maybe a properly configured current MacPro would do for me. Any experiences you can share about processing speeds with the current Mac Pro? Would the next generation make a giant leap forward or, would we most likely see incremental increases in performance?

"Would do"? Almost certainly. But I think you'll be happier if you wait for the refresh in the next few months (assuming your iMac with Handbrake is acceptable in the meantime).

Originally Posted by grover432 

For me, a MacPro purchae would have to be good for 3+ years.

Don't plan on >3 year lifetimes; you'll be better off on average if you spend less every 2.5-3 years than more every 4-5 years.

Originally Posted by P 

Anyway: Unless you seriously need to have a new Mac Pro before January, then wait. I suspect that Nehalem will be a quantum leap, if not as large as the Pentium 4 - Core 2 was. In addition, it will likely use DDR3, which is the coming memory standard that allows for higher bandwidth and denser memory banks (=higher max RAM).

And lower latency, which is important for media encoding (at least, H.264).

Originally Posted by grover432 

Can you comment on how long it would take a current MacPro to complete a DVD rip and encode as compared to the 24 hours it is taking my current iMac?

It's not meaningful to compare using different software or even settings. The Apple TV profile on a current Mac Pro takes about an hour for a two hour movie.

Originally Posted by bearcatrp 

You can always upgrade the processors later. The Nehalem looks to be a screamer but bet the price will be high to. I'll wait for reviews and tests to see if its worth upgrading. There wasn't that much of a speed increase between the 1st and 2nd generation mac pro's to justify upgrading for myself.

Substantially faster CPUs that you can drop into the current Mac Pros aren't coming. The upcoming architecture change is going to be much more significant than the last refresh.

[tooki]

I have the 8x2.8GHz Mac Pro, with 8GB RAM. Ripping a DVD with HandBrake using the iPod high-res option, changed to Anamorphic (which gives you a file that is optimal both for iPod and AppleTV, with little file waste), takes about 1/2 hour. Note that HandBrake can't fully load down the CPUs, it uses about 80% of each. (That also means the system is totally usable for other stuff at the same time.)s

[grover432]

Originally Posted by tooki 

I have the 8x2.8GHz Mac Pro, with 8GB RAM. Ripping a DVD with HandBrake using the iPod high-res option, changed to Anamorphic (which gives you a file that is optimal both for iPod and AppleTV, with little file waste), takes about 1/2 hour. Note that HandBrake can't fully load down the CPUs, it uses about 80% of each. (That also means the system is totally usable for other stuff at the same time.)s

Tooki,

Thanks for the reply. My computer takes about 6 - 7 hours to do the same job using Handbrake, so 1/2 hour is a great improvement. So how much faster can a new Mac Pro likely complete the task? 20 minutes instead of 30? 25 minutes instead of 30? I guess it is hard to tell.

Also, thanks for the pointer about using the Anamorphic setting. I've noticed that I can't use the videos I'm converting for Apple TV on my Video iPod. I'll have to change the settings for next time (I don't watch much on my iPod anyway, but plan to buy a new iPod touch one of these days).

On another note, I use Xilisoft to convert a .avi movie to .mp4 as Handbrake doesn't work with .avi files. On my G5 it takes 24 hours!

[tooki]

Is yours a 5th Gen iPod (the first ones to do video)? If so, those have much stricter limits on the video formats they support. I don't think they can do anamorphic, but since I don't own one of those, I can't say for sure. If you private message me your email, I can email you some small anamorphic clips for you to try.

The iPhone, iPod Touch, 3rd Gen nano, and the iPod classic (6th gen iPod) can all handle anamorphic video and high bitrates.

[grover432]

It's a 60GB Video, which I believe was the first generation that offered color video.

[oyseka]

Originally Posted by P 

Don't be - if you check back a bit, you'll notice that it's pretty much the same people who show up again and again in these threads. I guess we all take any excuse to consider the discussion.

Anyway: Unless you seriously need to have a new Mac Pro before January, then wait. I suspect that Nehalem will be a quantum leap, if not as large as the Pentium 4 - Core 2 was. In addition, it will likely use DDR3, which is the coming memory standard that allows for higher bandwidth and denser memory banks (=higher max RAM).

The point must be that waiting for Nehalem will be a sound move anyway because even if the price is going to be to high or you don't need all the capacity of the new architecture, the price of current systems will drop. I am in the same position having just sold my G5 Dual 2.7 and I am now running on a Mac Pro 2.66, which is a superb piece of kit, I was planning to buy an eight core 2.8. I may well still do that if the "New" Mac Pro is to expensive but the price will still get better for the "Old" Mac Pro

[grover432]

I've just read the new Mac Life article on "which Mac is right for you?" and have come to the conclusion that a Mac Pro is what I need for video editing and as an entertainment computer (non games). My plan is to purchase 2 computers in the next 6 months; a new iMac to replace my G5 and a Mac Pro when the new model arrives.

As for pricing, my guess is that the new Mac Pro in is base configuration will come in at a lower cost than the current model which starts at $2,799. The Mac Life article was suggesting starting with the base model, upgrading the video card (from Apple) and adding aftermarket memory. I'm betting the new Mac Pro's will start at less than $2,799.

A new iMac 20" will be a good solution in the interim. I'll order one with a 1Gb HDD and 4 GB of Ram and see how well it performs on the tasks I do most. That will tell me how much "horsepower" I need in my new Mac Pro. In addition, with my new iMac, I won't need to be in a hurry to get a new Mac pro (like I am now).

[olePigeon]

Intel just released their 6 core Xeon, so I'm guessing pretty soon. I'd say either in October during the special announcement alongside the new MacBooks, or, at the very latest at Macworld in January. Either way, not too long.

The new Intel Mac Pros are socketed, so they're significantly easier and cheaper to upgrade than the PowerPC Macs. Hopefully after this purchase, you'll be able to just buy faster Intel chips as they come out. Even for the iMac (I think.)

[mduell]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Intel just released their 6 core Xeon, so I'm guessing pretty soon. I'd say either in October during the special announcement alongside the new MacBooks, or, at the very latest at Macworld in January. Either way, not too long.

The new Intel Mac Pros are socketed, so they're significantly easier and cheaper to upgrade than the PowerPC Macs. Hopefully after this purchase, you'll be able to just buy faster Intel chips as they come out. Even for the iMac (I think.)

The 6 core Xeon release is just to bring the high-end server processor line (Xeon 7000) to the same core generation the Mac Pros are already using. They're priced at $1000-3000 each and I don't see why Apple would use them in the Mac Pros.

Despite the Mac Pros (and all non-portable Intel Macs) being socketed, you can really only upgrade them within their generation. New chip generations bring changes in FSB speeds, voltages, or new sockets/architectures entirely.