Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 04:42 PM

The levels that some people sink to makes me want to vomit. No matter what a person may think about Kerry, for the life of me, I cannot understand how people can ridicule someone who volunteered, WHEN THE PERSON DID NOT HAVE TO, for service in Vietnam while, at the same time, supporting someone who took the easier road and went into the National Guard. The hypocrisy and venom in this position is mind numbing.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 04:48 PM

His first choice wasn't to volunteer. And if he got a Purple Heart and didn't deserve it then ridicule is acceptable.

Veterans aren't off limits simply because they wore a uniform. That doesn't make them untouchable or invincible or immune to attack or criticism if it is warranted.

BlueSky · Aug 31, 2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
The levels that some people sink to makes me want to vomit. No matter what a person may think about Kerry, for the life of me, I cannot understand how people can ridicule someone who volunteered, WHEN THE PERSON DID NOT HAVE TO, for service in Vietnam while, at the same time, supporting someone who took the easier road and went into the National Guard. The hypocrisy and venom in this position is mind numbing.

Considering the candidate it behooves them to support, hypocrisy and venom is all they have.

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 04:49 PM

Volunteered indeed.

He attempted to get a student deferral to France when his draft number came up, when he couldn't get one, he volunteered for the Navy in order to avoid grunt service in the Army - he never volunteered to go to Vietnam.

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 04:50 PM

Haha, I'm loving this. Not many on the left were complaining about Michael Moore's lying movie, but along comes the Swiftboat Vets, tons of them, and they tell the truth and the left is getting their panties all soiled and they are scrambling, not knowing what to do. The money/donations is pouring into the SwiftVets like crazy, and more ads are coming all of the time.

The newest ad #4 (medals) is pretty damaging as well.

(edit - I might just contribute $25 myself to the swiftboats. A good cause.)

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 04:50 PM

And he volunteered only when it suited him, not his country. Look how fast he got a desk job out of harm's way once he managed to score three Purples. And look how fast he bailed even from a simple desk job.

greenamp · Aug 31, 2004, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
The levels that some people sink to makes me want to vomit. No matter what a person may think about Kerry, for the life of me, I cannot understand how people can ridicule someone who volunteered, WHEN THE PERSON DID NOT HAVE TO, for service in Vietnam while, at the same time, supporting someone who took the easier road and went into the National Guard. The hypocrisy and venom in this position is mind numbing.

What's ironic though, is that you would probably think it was clever if it was a jab against Bush.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 04:55 PM

I consider it payback for the Bob Dole jokes.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Volunteered indeed.

As we're well aware, young men with the right connections didn't have to serve in Vietnam if they didn't want to.

Shaddim · Aug 31, 2004, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:

(edit - I might just contribute $25 myself to the swiftboats. A good cause.)

I've already sent them a couple hundred $, it IS a good cause.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
As we're well aware, young men with the right connections didn't have to serve in Vietnam if they didn't want to.

Neither did the vast majority of Americans.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
As we're well aware, young men with the right connections didn't have to serve in Vietnam if they didn't want to.

Precisely.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by greenamp:
What's ironic though, is that you would probably think it was clever if it was a jab against Bush.

Why would you think that?

daimoni · 01:18 PM

.

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by daimoni:
Tell that to all the veterans who *had* to serve (and their families).

Yeah, and it seems like the majority of vets are against Kerry. He betrayed them.

daimoni · 01:18 PM

.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
Yeah, and it seems like the majority of vets are against Kerry. He betrayed them.

Haven't seen much evidence of that. That's the perception that Bush and the Swift Boat gang are striving to create, so that people think Kerry is weak on defense, thus weak on terrorism, and thus not worth their vote.

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by daimoni:
He was there. You were not. You have ZERO ****ING IDEA what it was like to be in his shoes. Kerry does. Bush never will.

You're right, I wasn't there. I was a bit too young to be sent to Vietnam, at the time.

All of the vets who are criticizing Kerry were also there, and their opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by daimoni:
Tell that to all the veterans who *had* to serve (and their families).

Not everybody grew up rich like Bush and Kerry.

Vietnam wasn't a just war. It wasn't vital to the survival of this nation. Thus to avoid service isn't disgraceful.

And, yes, my father is a veteran of Vietnam and he is disgusted with Kerry's actions during and after the war.

He tried to get a deferment like Kerry, failed like Kerry, but unlike Kerry continued his service during and after the war. He didn't run away from the heat of battle, come home, and tell lies and smear all those still serving as Kerry did.

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Haven't seen much evidence of that. That's the perception that Bush and the Swift Boat gang are striving to create, so that people think Kerry is weak on defense, thus weak on terrorism, and thus not worth their vote.

I don't believe that is an illusion. Kerry is weak on defense, as his voting record proves.

And Bush is not behind these ads, so why falsely associate him with the swiftboat vets ?

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
...ridicule is acceptable.

Interesting. How old are you?

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
I don't believe that is an illusion. Kerry is weak on defense, as his voting record proves.

Does it? You mean like that one time he had the audacity to vote against the same bill four times ten years ago?

And Bush is not behind these ads, so why falsely associate him with the swiftboat vets ?

Right, I'm sure the campaign has no connections and had no idea what this group was doing. Just like back in 2000, when the Bush campaign was 'falsely associated' with the groups who smeared McCain in South Carolina.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
Interesting. How old are you?

Old enough to have a father that served in Vietnam and two grandfathers who served in WWII. All veterans who oppose Kerry.

daimoni · 01:18 PM

.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
... - he never volunteered to go to Vietnam.

The hell he didn't.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Spoogepieces:
Old enough to have a father that served in Vietnam and two grandfathers who served in WWII. All veterans who oppose Kerry.

My point regarded your comment that "ridicule is acceptable" - ridicule is a common tactic used by children while arguing. Ridicule is counterproductive and typically unnaceptable between adults, particularly between those who ultimately must work together. Of course this doesn't apply if you dont give a fvuck about the person/people you are disagreeing with. But then, of course, you knew that already.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by daimoni:
That's funny because history and reality have proved you wrong.

Care to show me when Vietnam attacked the contiguous United States? Or even Hawaii or Alaska? Thanks, I'll be waiting for that answer.

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
My point was your comment that "ridicule is acceptable" - ridicule is a common tactic used by children while arguing. Ridicule is counterproductive and typically unnaceptable between adults, particularly between those who ultimately must work together.

Ridicule unjustified? Hardly, a person who didn't miss more than one day of duty for THREE Purple Hearts suggests Kerry barely needed more than Band-Aids for his wounds.

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
My point was your comment that "ridicule is acceptable" - ridicule is a common tactic used by children while arguing. Ridicule is counterproductive and typically unnaceptable between adults, particularly between those who ultimately must work together.

Ridicule is practicaly the only tactic, that many of the Bush haters operate by.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
Ridicule is practicaly the only tactic, that many of the Bush haters operate by.

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread? You might also want to review some of the speeches from the Dem's convention and discover that you are patently wrong. Then again, you might not.

ps. also check my edit of the above post

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
You might also want to review some of the speeches from the Dem's convention and discover that you are patently wrong.

I saw the beginning of Kerry's speech. After he saluted himself, and said "reporting for duty", I switched the channel. Sorry, it doesn't matter to me what Kerry has to say, I've heard enough from their kind to make up my mind.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
I saw the beginning of Kerry's speech. After he saluted himself, and said "reporting for duty", I switched the channel. Sorry, it doesn't matter to me what Kerry has to say, I've heard enough from their kind to make up my mind.

My point was that your comment about the bush haters only knowing ridicule was wrong. And still is.

PacHead · Aug 31, 2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
My point was that your comment about the bush haters only knowing ridicule was wrong. And still is.

No, I'm not denying that ridicule comes from both sides. I'm saying that ridicule seems to be the other side's strongest argument. Ridicule will not decide this election, that's all I'm saying.

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
As we're well aware, young men with the right connections didn't have to serve in Vietnam if they didn't want to.

Of course not. But not all those young men made up stories.

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
The hell he didn't.

You aren't getting what I am saying. Of COURSE he volunteered.. but it was only reluctantly so he wouldn't get into a WORSE position because he was being drafted.

If he could have gotten out of it, he would.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course not. But not all those young men made up stories.

Not all those young men served in combat.

Originally posted by Zimphire:
If he could have gotten out of it, he would.

And that's precisely my point -- he had the connections to get out of it altogether and he could have if he wanted to.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by PacHead:
No, I'm not denying that ridicule comes from both sides. I'm saying that ridicule seems to be the other side's strongest argument. Ridicule will not decide this election, that's all I'm saying.

And yet the Republicans are handing out purple heart stickers at their convention. Are you blind in one eye?

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Not all those young men served in combat.

Of course. But serving in combat doesn't automatically make it ok to lie about what you did while you served.

And that's precisely my point -- he had the connections to get out of it altogether and he could have if he wanted to.

He attempted to get a student deferral to France when his draft number came up, when he couldn't get one, he volunteered for the Navy in order to avoid grunt service in the Army.

That wasn't him enlisting because he wanted to fight. This was him taking the best option he had at the time.

daimoni · 01:19 PM

.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Not all those young men served in combat.

And that's precisely my point -- he had the connections to get out of it altogether and he could have if he wanted to.

Thanks for pointing that out, again, itai95... He COULD have gotten out of it, but HE DIDN'T.

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by deedar:
Thanks for pointing that out, again, itai95... He COULD have gotten out of it, but HE DIDN'T.

No, no he couldn't! HE TRIED!

He obviously didn't have that high of clout throwing around.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Of course. But serving in combat doesn't automatically make it ok to lie about what you did while you served.

You're quick to change the subject.

NO! He tried! He TRIED to get into France to get out of it. He didn't get there soon enough. he was DRAFTED! So he enlisted so he wouldn't have to join the army's grunt force.

That wasn't him enlisting because he wanted to fight. This was him taking the best option he had at the time.

You conservatives are always going on about how wealthy and well-connected Kerry's family is. Are you saying he couldn't get out of serving in Vietnam, like so many of his peers? I don't believe it.

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
You're quick to change the subject.

Er I was just replying to your comment.

You conservatives are always going on about how wealthy and well-connected Kerry's family is. Are you saying he couldn't get out of serving in Vietnam, like so many of his peers? I don't believe it.

I have shown where he TRIED TO. Are you saying that he tried to but had the connections and wasn't smart enough to use them?

Just because you had money, doesn't mean you had connections.

Elvis got drafted too ya know.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

I have shown where he TRIED TO. Are you saying that he tried to but had the connections and wasn't smart enough to use them?

Just because you had money, doesn't mean you had connections.

Elvis got drafted too ya know.

No, I'm saying he had the connections but didn't use them. I doubt anyone in the Forbes family is lacking in connections.

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
No, I'm saying he had the connections but didn't use them. I doubt anyone in the Forbes family is lacking in connections.

Ok , he TRIED to get to France. Why?

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Ok , he TRIED to get to France. Why?

First of all, where's the proof of that?

Spoogepieces · Aug 31, 2004, 09:10 PM

It's well known he tried to get a 12 month deferment to Paris and failed.

itai195 · Aug 31, 2004, 09:27 PM

Found it, okay, first time I've really heard of that. But I don't see how it changes anything, almost everyone tried to get a deferment of some sort. Whe he was denied he still enlisted and served, unlike others who used connections to avoid service (or had children).

Zimphire · Aug 31, 2004, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by itai195:
Found it, okay, first time I've really heard of that. But I don't see how it changes anything, almost everyone tried to get a deferment of some sort.

No most everyone didn't try to get one.

Whe he was denied he still enlisted and served, unlike others who used connections to avoid service (or had children).

He only enlisted because he was being drafted and had a choice of being drafted as a Army grunt, or enlist in the Navy and be better off.

In other words, he only enlisted because he had no other choice. Not because he WANTED to.

deedar · Aug 31, 2004, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:

No most everyone didn't try to get one.

He only enlisted because he was being drafted and had a choice of being drafted as a Army grunt, or enlist in the Navy and be better off.

In other words, he only enlisted because he had no other choice. Not because he WANTED to. [/B]

A whole lot of folks tried. I know, I was around then (turned 18 in 1972).

You don't know DICK about anyone else's motivations. Unless they tell you specifically, it is not possible.

Lastly, who the fvuck cares if he enlisted because he had no choice (although I would bet my left nut that he did have a choice, but so what), it is completely irrelevant and so is your argument.