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Eug Wanker · May 30, 2006, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by daimoni

The amount of money at stake does not make your question any more legitimate... or less ignorant.

I will be honest... I would have not contributed had Avastin been shown to have no survival benefit compared to placebo. However, Avastin does have some survival benefit on average. As you know, it's unfortunately not going to work for everyone, but at least we know it does sometimes work.

Mastrap · May 30, 2006, 10:10 AM

I would not have asked for money if Avastin would not have any benefits.

besson3c · May 30, 2006, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Give it a rest already.

It is difficult to predict how long any additional treatment will prolong her life. It might be a week, it might help her body beat the cancer for years.
And nobody is asking anybody for $30,000. We're trying to raise that amount yes, but from many different sources.

What Dai got pissed about was your lack of understanding of the situation - probably because he himself understands it all too well. Somebody is dying. Even a week longer would be a gift.

I don't agree with your last statement. I believe in quality of life over life for the sake of life.

If somebody is living a week longer in great pain and agony just prolonging the inevitable, what is the point? Make your peace with the person, and kill off the life support. That's just my personal belief, but I respect differing philosophies (although Terry Schiavo was rather hard to stomach, mostly because of the surrounding debate and politicizing).

Does this drug have any side effects? Will this person be in great pain and/or discomfort? Will this drug help provide this person with a quality life, or will she be stuck in a hospital bed?

besson3c · May 30, 2006, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by daimoni

The cliche of "Tell me, Doc. How long do I have to live?" plays better on daytime soap operas.

In Real Life there is no such thing as "if you do this (take this experimental drug), it will allow you to live for this long". Whereas in video game land, one can usually predict how long a Power Up will last.

It's a worthwhile question only if one believes in a magical Supreme Being - like the Tooth Fairy - that could possibly know... the Unknowable.

Asking whether this thing will keep this person alive for just a week or two in great pain and agony, or whether it will help this person return to a relatively normal life for any amount of time is a worthwhile question. I believe some people go too far in trying to prolong lives.

Eug Wanker · May 30, 2006, 10:27 AM

Avastin is anti-vascular endothelial growth factor receptor antibody. Thus, it inhibits vessel growth, which of course can have a significant effect on tumours, since tumours need a blood supply to survive. It is not a traditional old-school chemotherapeutic agent so its side effects should be less. (That is not to say it is a completely benign drug.)

Suffice it to say that if it does work, her quality of life could get better for a time.

(I don't claim to be an expert on this, but the bottom line is that Avastin is supposedly a pretty reasonable drug, even if it can't cure the disease.)

daimoni · May 30, 2006, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Asking whether this thing will keep this person alive for just a week or two in great pain and agony, or whether it will help this person return to a relatively normal life for any amount of time is a worthwhile question. I believe some people go too far in trying to prolong lives.

That's not what he was asking, nor in follow up, how he asked it.

And I agree that some people go too far in trying to prolong a life. However, it's not our lives we're talking about... it's hers. If she wants to fight, then those who love her will fight along with her. That's what's being alive is all about.

When it's our turn to die, we may choose a different path.

besson3c · May 30, 2006, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by daimoni

That's not what he was asking, nor in follow up, how he asked it.

And I agree that some people go too far in trying to prolong a life. However, it's not our lives we're talking about... it's hers. If she wants to fight, then those who love her will fight along with her. That's what's being alive is all about.

When it's our turn to die, we may choose a different path.

Well then, don't you think it isn't entirely unreasonable for the financial donor to know what impact his/her donation will have, and what the context is here, medically speaking? I hadn't heard of this drug before this thread (I don't really keep track of modern drugs and treatments).

Mastrap · May 30, 2006, 10:52 AM

Absolutely. But SWG has a history of asking questions in a, shall we say, abrasive manner. I think the tone of his question caused far more of a stir than the content of it.

Let's lay this to rest now please.

brassplayersrock² · May 30, 2006, 11:24 AM

so asking how much longer the girl will live with the medicine is asking in an abrasive manner? im so confizzled, i was going to ask the same thing, but SWG beat me to it.

daimoni, i'm sorry to hear about your wife, but that doesnt mean that you have you get all pissy when someone else has the same treatment and survives (or learn someone else will be getting the same treatment). it was your wifes time to pass on, everyone has a time. medicine has advanced so much over the past decade its crazy.

Brass

besson3c · May 30, 2006, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Absolutely. But SWG has a history of asking questions in a, shall we say, abrasive manner. I think the tone of his question caused far more of a stir than the content of it.

Let's lay this to rest now please.

I understand. Sorry for muddying these waters, but my questions (that Eug Wanker has answered for the most part) are actually useful in my decision making process here. Let's face it, people often donate so that they can feel good about themselves, so I think these sorts of questions (phrased tactfully and tastefully) are worthwhile and beneficial to discuss.

I hope you don't feel less of me for this, just being extremely candid here.

ThinkInsane · May 30, 2006, 11:32 AM

If you would like to continue the debate about SWG's question, feel free to do so via PM, IM, email, or any other manner you choose, but please do not drag this thread down into the muck. There are plenty of threads that are far more deserving of such treatment.

Socially Awkward Solo · May 30, 2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

If somebody is living a week longer in great pain and agony just prolonging the inevitable, what is the point? Make your peace with the person, and kill off the life support. That's just my personal belief, but I respect differing philosophies (although Terry Schiavo was rather hard to stomach, mostly because of the surrounding debate and politicizing).

And that is exactly why I ask.

If I was near death and someone said there was a $30,000 treatment that would extend my life by a week to a year BUT I would be unable to move or leave the hospital I wouldn't do it.

I wasn't telling Mastrap do do this I just ask the simple question of HOW LONG will it extend her life. Are you telling me her husband didn't ask the same question?

If I ask ANYONE for money I would answer any question they have. I wouldn't want to pay $30,000 to extend my life for a week with suffering. If she wants to go nuts but that doesn't mean a question like this is out of place.

Calling my question "abrasive" is incredibly rude on both Mastraps and daimoni behalf.

daimoni · May 30, 2006, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock

sdaimoni, i'm sorry to hear about your wife, but that doesnt mean that you have you get all pissy when someone else has the same treatment and survives (or learn someone else will be getting the same treatment). it was your wifes time to pass on, everyone has a time. medicine has advanced so much over the past decade its crazy.

Brass

Wow. Just wow.

Get well soon.

Cody Dawg · May 30, 2006, 04:31 PM

It sounds like daimoni's wife died of colon cancer?

If so, he's probably still very hurt and bitter.

Sorry to hear about your wife daimoni.

scaught · May 30, 2006, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock

daimoni, i'm sorry to hear about your wife, but that doesnt mean that you have you get all pissy when someone else has the same treatment and survives (or learn someone else will be getting the same treatment). it was your wifes time to pass on, everyone has a time. medicine has advanced so much over the past decade its crazy.

Brass

i trust you speak more politely and like a human being in public. the internet sometimes blurs meaning and intention.

chris v · May 30, 2006, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

It sounds like daimoni's wife died of colon cancer?

If so, he's probably still very hurt and bitter.

Sorry to hear about your wife daimoni.

He's one of my heroes. Raising 2 kids in her absence. I haven't detected much outward bitterness, no.

(bump) Donate, people.

Monique · May 30, 2006, 05:04 PM

This is not the place for a debate on quality of life. Just start a new thread if you want to do this. The women in question made her choice it is up to her friends now to support her. If you do not want to contribute, fine, be quiet about it and leave them alone.

brassplayersrock² · May 30, 2006, 05:05 PM

in my experiences in life i've found that if something doesnt work for someone and it does for someone else than the person that it didnt work for is usually upset and this is how i interepted daimonis post. yeah i could of worded my post in question better if i had decided to redo it. if it hurt anyones feelings, i'm sorry. that wasn't my intention. but yeah. people donate please, this is for a great cause.

Brass

Cody Dawg · May 30, 2006, 05:18 PM

Wow. Daimoni, you're awesome.

to you.

scaught · May 30, 2006, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by chris v

He's one of my heroes. Raising 2 kids in her absence. I haven't detected much outward bitterness, no.

(bump) Donate, people.

amen, brother.

Railroader · May 30, 2006, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Railroader, you've just got a $100.000 pay-off, right? Surely 5 bucks wouldn't hurt.

I do NOT appreciate being singled out like this.

FWIW, I donated very shortly after you started the thread. My Paypal message was "Given out of love and understanding."

Please don't do this type of singling me out in the future.

Mastrap · May 30, 2006, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I do NOT appreciate being singled out like this.

FWIW, I donated very shortly after you started the thread. My Paypal message was "Given out of love and understanding."

Please don't do this type of singling me out in the future.

You've got a point and I apologize. I didn't mean to single you out there - merely to make a point that some of us are luckier than others. Your initial post in this thread struck me as if you were telling me to just contact the manufacturer and that would be the solution. I was obviously wrong and I am sorry for my reaction.

Railroader · May 30, 2006, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You've got a point and I apologize. I didn't mean to single you out there - merely to make a point that some of us are luckier than others. Your initial post in this thread struck me as if you were telling me to just contact the manufacturer and that would be the solution. I was obviously wrong and I am sorry for my reaction.

Thank you. We're cool. Just don't jump to conclusions about people too quickly is my only advice.

daimoni · May 30, 2006, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Wow. Daimoni, you're awesome.

to you.

Thank you, but it is my friends who are awesome.

For the record, my wife did not die of colon cancer. She was diagnosed with stage 4c ovarian cancer. But they also found plenty of cancer in the colon, stomach, intestines, liver, etc.

It affected her body and mind, but the spirit remained. She fought like a cornered wolverine protecting her young for about a year and a half, but eventually the cancer spread to the chest, brain, and beyond. In the end, she died of "all-overian" cancer. She was 38.

This happened a little over a year ago. I have moved on as well as I can, and have found happiness again.

I really wish I didn't, but like it or not, I know what Mastrap's friends are going through. There is no bitterness, only compassion. I totally support them in word and deed. They are in a world of hurt - where they know there are no guarantees in treatment, and I doubt any were offered. Yet there are sometimes treatments that are worth trying. And sometimes they even work. So if there is a will to fight on, then fight on they must. What else would you do if you had a child and husband who you loved? It's about love. And I have experienced that kind of love.

ThinkInsane · May 30, 2006, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by daimoni

Thank you, but it is my friends who are awesome.

For the record, my wife did not die of colon cancer. She was diagnosed with stage 4c ovarian cancer. But they also found plenty of cancer in the colon, stomach, intestines, liver, etc.

It affected her body and mind, but the spirit remained. She fought like a cornered wolverine protecting her young for about a year and a half, but eventually the cancer spread to the chest, brain, and beyond. In the end, she died of "all-overian" cancer. She was 38.

This happened a little over a year ago. I have moved on as well as I can, and have found happiness again.

I really wish I didn't, but like it or not, I know what Mastrap's friends are going through. There is no bitterness, only compassion. I totally support them in word and deed. They are in a world of hurt - where they know there are no guarantees in treatment, and I doubt any were offered. Yet there are sometimes treatments that are worth trying. And sometimes they even work. So if there is a will to fight on, then fight on they must. What else would you do if you had a child and husband who you loved? It's about love. And I have experienced that kind of love.

dai, I didn't know your wife had passed away. I'm very sorry to hear that. I'll add you and your kids to the good thoughts I'm thinking for Mastrap's friend.

Salty · May 31, 2006, 12:54 AM

Seriously guys, this sort of thread is NOT the place to debate or tell people how other people who are on their death beds should be living their lives! Have some basic tact for goodness sake! It is NEVER OK to debate/discuss your own philosophies about death, quality of life or anything of that nature when asking for money to help fund the treatment of someone else who has obviously already made up their mind on what they desire! Seriously it's profoundly rude.

[email protected] · May 31, 2006, 01:40 AM

Mastrap I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I hope for all the best. My thoughts and prayers are with her and her family.

Please donate.
God Bless.

Cody Dawg · May 31, 2006, 08:14 AM

daimoni:

That makes me cry - I am sorry for you.

My mother died of ovarian cancer. It is one of the worst cancers to be diagnosed with because it is so silent. I have to go every 6 months to have ultrasounds to measure my ovaries and in particular, pay attention to my right over (it hurts a lot all of the time and it's worrisome) because of the familial connection with ovarian cancer.

It is very sad that she developed it at all, but age 37 or 38 is even sadder. My mother was 43 when she died. It seems that when younger women get these cancers (like Esther Hart) that they tend to be more aggressive for some reason.

Daimoni, all we can say is that we are very sorry for your loss and I wish we'd known because I am positive that we would all have contributed to a fund for you also. I hope that you know that if you need help that we will all pitch in for you, too.

Are you in Michigan, Daimoni? For some reason I think you are. Well, I spent a lot of time there (have relatives there) and you may or may not remember, but in the late 70s/early 80s there was a very bad chemical spill that affected most of Michigan; there is/was a plant in Muskegon that bagged (in grain bags) both cattle feed and a fire retardent called PBB. Well, this plant accidentally bagged thousands of bags of PBB with grain to be fed to milk and beef cows and thousands and thousands (if not millions) of people in Michigan were poisoned by this chemical. There is a group of researchers that noted that women in Michigan have an inordinate amount of cancers, especially breast and covarian cancers, and they think that PBB poisoning is the reason. I remember the government coming out and slaughtering hundreds of cows and burying them in huge plastic-lined pits. Those farmers were done for good. A lot of friends lost their entire livelihoods. Farms were just dead. It was and is a sad state of affairs that the state of Michigan covered it up and millions of people were affected. I personally do believe that the PBB poisoning is the reason why Michigan women have more cancer, more multiple sclerosis, and just are in poor health - and maybe men too.

At any rate, God bless you and your kids, Daimoni.

Timo · May 31, 2006, 08:25 AM

FWIW I know daimoni to be a compassionate man, not bitter, at least not bitter in the petty ways that word connotes. Frustrated with the cosmic questions -- aren't we all? -- but not bitter.

He knows first hand how this could help. Let's help Mastrap's project.

Railroader · Jun 4, 2006, 10:13 PM

Mastrap,

What's the tally up to now? Just curious.

Mastrap · Jun 4, 2006, 10:53 PM

I'll be writing a cheque for $1274.73 tomorrow. The total tally is just over $11,500, so we're a third of the way there. The local paper had an article about Esther in it on Friday, hopefully that'll help too.

I'm actually just back from Esther and David's house. We had dinner together, David, my wife and I had a couple of glasses of wine. Esther can't partake, due to the drugs she's taking. She looked a lot better than the last time we saw her. She's out of hospital for the time being and spending time with her family. She was able to play with her daughter and to read her a bed time story.

Esther is completely overwhelmed by the good wishes everybody is sending. It is making a massive difference in her life. To quote: "I can't give up fighting now. All these people are supporting me. I'd feel like I'd be letting them down."

Thanks for asking and for the bump.

Railroader · Jun 4, 2006, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mastrap

I'll be writing a cheque for $1274.73 tomorrow. The total tally is just over $11,500, so we're a third of the way there. The local paper had an article about Esther in it on Friday, hopefully that'll help too.

I'm actually just back from Esther and David's house. We had dinner together, David, my wife and I had a couple of glasses of wine. Esther can't partake, due to the drugs she's taking. She looked a lot better than the last time we saw her. She's out of hospital for the time being and spending time with her family. She was able to play with her daughter and to read her a bed time story.

Esther is completely overwhelmed by the good wishes everybody is sending. It is making a massive difference in her life. To quote: "I can't give up fighting now. All these people are supporting me. I'd feel like I'd be letting them down."

Thanks for the update!

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Thanks for asking and for the bump.

Exactly.

[/BUMP]

chris v · Jun 4, 2006, 11:09 PM

Phenomenal news. Great work, dude.

Mastrap · Jun 4, 2006, 11:26 PM

There's another $150 or so coming in from cheques cleared on paypal, so as soon as I get that pulled to my bank account I'll be writing another cheque to the fund.

And to answer some of the earlier questions about how much extra time Avastin might give her, we actually talked about that tonight. Esther should be dead by now, given the statistics. Instead she was sitting with us, playing with her daughter, having dinner. She has beaten the odds already and because of her age Avastin can potentially add several years to her life. Years in which things might change, years in which medicine might progress considerably.

Cody Dawg · Jun 5, 2006, 07:58 AM

Mastrap:

I know that a lot of people have also put checks in the mail to Esther from the group of people that I emailed. She should get a few hundred dollars from that also. (A lot of them didn't have Paypal accounts.)

Let's hope Esther keeps on keeping on.

andi*pandi · Jun 5, 2006, 08:44 AM

thanks for the update. It's good to 'hear' her words on this... makes it even more worthwhile.

Mastrap · Jun 5, 2006, 09:43 AM

Btw, there is now a new paypal account, which will make it easier for me to administer. It's [email protected]

Just in case some of you still wanted to make a donation. Thanks.

Mastrap · Jun 9, 2006, 11:46 PM

Update: This article was in the local paper recently.

MindFad · Jun 9, 2006, 11:49 PM

Great!

kick52 · Jun 10, 2006, 09:25 AM

i would donate, but my paypal account is actually my mums. good luck.

tavilach · Jun 10, 2006, 11:41 AM

I hope Esther lives long enough for Sophie to remember her love.

Cody Dawg · Jun 10, 2006, 11:49 AM

How wonderful.

I have a feeling that they are going to have their funds very soon.