[turtle777]

Look at the facts, Cali is ****ed.



Arnold Schwarzenegger: Public Pensions and Our Fiscal Future - WSJ.com

What killed California ? Public employees and their outrageous and frivolous compensation demands.

The above numbers represent the cost even with the pension reforms that Schwarzenegger is proposing. Of course, the Democarts are strictly against it.
Can you imagine how much worse things will get if nothing is done ?

California is now saddled with $550 billion of retirement debt.

How the hell will this not end in insolvency ?

Few Californians in the private sector have $1 million in savings, but that's effectively the retirement account they guarantee to public employees who opt to retire at age 55 and are entitled to a monthly, inflation-protected check of $3,000 for the rest of their lives.

Speaks for itself. I think we have a new class of parasites: government-employee fat-cats.

So, how long will the people of California continue to let this happen, paid by increasing taxation and lower standards of living ?

-t

[hyteckit]

Thanks Pres. Bush for f*cking up the economy.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Thanks Pres. Bush for f*cking up the economy.

You are such a retarded troll. Go die.

-t

[Laminar]

Wouldn't negative 1,200,000 job losses mean a net gain of 1,200,000 jobs? I'm not sure what the problem is.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Thanks Pres. Bush for f*cking up the economy.

Do you even realize how stupid you sound with your non-informed assumptions? CONGRESS holds the power, a point you always ignore when you repeat your lib-dem talking points.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

lib-dem

The first time I used this phrase I was totally joking.

[hyteckit]

Thanks Pres. Bush for outsourcing our private jobs and f*cking up our economy.

Thank God for the public sector for keeping jobs in the US.

[turtle777]

Do you even know who dumb you sound ?

The turd I laid yesterday speaks more inelligently than you. Seriously.

-t

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Do you even know who dumb you sound ?

The turd I laid yesterday speaks more inelligently than you. Seriously.

-t

Good to know that you get your "intelligent" advices from your turd.

[turtle777]

I don't, but I feed it to the local Democrats.
They think it's the best thing since sliced bread and Keynes.

-t

[hyteckit]

Thanks Pres. Bush for outsourcing all our manufacturing jobs.

Bush Promotes The Outsourcing Of U.S. Jobs

[besson3c]

I know how to make toast. You put regular bread in the toaster and press the little slider down, wait for a little bit, and then toast comes out.

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The above numbers represent the cost even with the pension reforms that Schwarzenegger is proposing. Of course, the Democarts are strictly against it.
Can you imagine how much worse things will get if nothing is done ?

I live in Illinois, so well, um, yes, I can.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Thanks Pres. Bush for outsourcing our private jobs and f*cking up our economy.

Thank God for the public sector for keeping jobs in the US.

I think you are attributing (along with most Americans) too much power to the Oval Office. The US isn't a totalitarian dictatorship, so don't act as if one person is responsible for corporate decisions.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by CreepDogg 

I live in Illinois, so well, um, yes, I can.

Ha, me, too.

And I'm not saying other states are better off. IL, NJ and NY are right next to follow CA.
They'll all go broke soon.

Then the Europeans (with their puny little problems in Greece) will laugh at the US.
CA's blow up will be eleventy billion times worse than Greece.

-t

[CreepDogg]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ha, me, too.

And I'm not saying other states are better off. IL, NJ and NY are right next to follow CA.
They'll all go broke soon.

Then the Europeans (with their puny little problems in Greece) will laugh at the US.
CA's blow up will be eleventy billion times worse than Greece.

-t

Since California's economy is about eleventy billion times the size of Greece's, that sounds about right.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

CA's blow up will be eleventy billion times worse than Greece.

[turtle777]

Yes, Cpt. Obvious ?

-t

[mrtew]

Oh please, the republicans never did anything wrong! That's just the liberal media talking. The republicans are 100% on the side of all Americans, rich and poor alike (except for muslims and gay atheists) and have never done anything to funnel all the money in the country to the top 1% of the population at the expense of the future of the country!

[turtle777]

Nobody said the Reps are perfect. There is enough dumb big spenders among them as well.

Big government is the problem, and all the waste, fraud and abuse that it causes.
Big government is bad, no matter if it's caused by left or right.

-t

[Brien]

I live in CA. Yeah, we're toast.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Brien 

I live in CA. Yeah, we're toast.

I call it a nice tan.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I think you are attributing (along with most Americans) too much power to the Oval Office. The US isn't a totalitarian dictatorship, so don't act as if one person is responsible for corporate decisions.

Okay.

Thanks Pres. Bush, Republican Congress, and Republican California governor for outsourcing all our manufacturing jobs.

[turtle777]

could someone please ban this troll.

At any rate, anyone with a brain knows to what side of the middle Cali has been leaning all those years.

-t

[Eug]

I wonder who really wrote that Arnie letter, but I agree with much of it.

I don't fall into the same category as those employed by California, but I do have a defined benefit pension plan. That "spiking" he mentions exists to a certain extent in my plan. Because of the nature of my employment, my initial salary as a pension member is much, much, much lower than what it is now. I'm talking a huge difference, not just to inflation and small raises. So, my pension will benefit greatly because of that. Basically, the first several years of much lower pay in my pension won't matter much to the value of my pension, despite the fact I contributed much less during those years.

I'm not complaining, but personally I think it's stupid. Defined benefit is a reasonable approach to a pension plan (if set up appropriately with reasonable rules), but not if it's so easily screwed over with things such as spiking of salaries before retirement.

P.S. I lived in a province in Canada where the righties opened up a bunch of new hospitals to get votes, spending craploads of money unnecessarily. The lefties that took over in the following term closed them all down. In this case it was just common sense, but it seems politicians, whether they be right or left, often forget about common sense when it comes to managing money.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Thanks Pres. Bush for outsourcing our private jobs and f*cking up our economy.

Thank God for the public sector for keeping jobs in the US.

I'm not sure that is accurate, even if it is, Obama's solution is much much worse.
He want's the US to allow our jobs to go to illegal aliens that don't pay taxes and on top of that, we pay for their health care, schooling, etc. We loose the work to illegals and all they do is take and take and take. They pay NOTHING into the system.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

I'm not sure that is accurate, even if it is, Obama's solution is much much worse.
He want's the US to allow our jobs to go to illegal aliens that don't pay taxes and on top of that, we pay for their health care, schooling, etc. We loose the work to illegals and all they do is take and take and take. They pay NOTHING into the system.

Wants, not "want's", and "lose", not "loose".

Something tells me that if Obama had his druthers he'd prefer that jobs go to people that pay taxes. Other than this, I can't really debate your feelings on the rest of this.

[Big Mac]

It seems that the CA Legislature is betting that Congress won't let one of the most important states go broke, so they think they can just spend to complete excess and indulge their union bosses until the inevitable State Bailout plan. It's revolting.

But as CA goes so goes America. . . To the poor house because of enormous government and the Socialists and Statists that empower it. C'est la vie.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

I'm not sure that is accurate, even if it is, Obama's solution is much much worse.
He want's the US to allow our jobs to go to illegal aliens that don't pay taxes and on top of that, we pay for their health care, schooling, etc. We loose the work to illegals and all they do is take and take and take. They pay NOTHING into the system.

Why distort everyone's position? He wants the 12 million illegals that ALREADY have jobs here to be legalized so they can start paying taxes and paying social security and paying into healthcare and schooling etc. Why do you state his position backwards to undermine his efforts to fix the huge problem that we already have??? If it was possible to stop or reverse the influx of aliens don't you think that Reagan or Bush or Bush would have done it when they had 20 years to do it??? Geezuz.

[besson3c]

To the poor house because of corruption, greed, entitlement programs and corporate checks and balances in need of reform, and government that can not agree on anything enough to make a positive difference. We are not in the poor house because of socialism (which this country is and will likely never be), nor because of people that are interested in having some degree of a safety net.

[Big Mac]

There is always going to be some level of corruption among those who hold power, but limited government places constraints on the power of politicians. As for Socialism or safety nets not being the cause, what do you think Entitlements are, besson? The single greatest cause of the economic destruction of the US is public and government employee Entitlements, moreso than every other area of spending combined including war spending.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

To the poor house because of corruption, greed, entitlement programs and corporate checks and balances in need of reform, and government that can not agree on anything enough to make a positive difference. We are not in the poor house because of socialism (which this country is and will likely never be), or because of people that are interested in having some degree of a safety net.

So, since you understand Democrats better than me: what's the CA Democrats solution to the problem ?

The only thing keeping them in check was a Republican governor. Now, I'm not saying Schwarzenegger did everything right or was overly successful, but if it wasn't for him blocking all kinds of spending shenanigans, CA would be in even worse shape.

-t

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

I'm not sure that is accurate, even if it is, Obama's solution is much much worse.
He want's the US to allow our jobs to go to illegal aliens that don't pay taxes and on top of that, we pay for their health care, schooling, etc. We loose the work to illegals and all they do is take and take and take. They pay NOTHING into the system.

What? Pres. Obama's solution?

Pres. Obama deported a lot more illegal immigrants than Pres. Bush.
Pres. Obama increase border patrol spending.
Illegal immigration is down 1 million in 2009, the sharpest decrease in 30 years.

Illegal immigration down - because of economy or border control? - CSMonitor.com

What do you Pres. Obama to do? Be more like Pres. Bush and Pres. Reagan, who welcome illegal immigrants?


Pres. Bush not only outsource our manufacturing jobs, he wanted non-US citizens to come to the US to take our jobs through the Guest Worker Program.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

There is always going to be some level of corruption among those who hold power, but limited government places constraints on the power of politicians. As for Socialism or safety nets not being the cause, what do you think Entitlements are, besson? The single greatest cause of the economic destruction of the US is public and government employee Entitlements, moreso than every other area of spending combined including war spending.

Limited government can also mean that they have fewer resources to do what we need them to do. There is a limit to how "limited" you make your government without there being a negative effect, you know. There is a balance to everything.

The main entitlements that are driving us into debt that are in bad need of reform are Medicare/Medicaid, and to a lesser extent, Social Security - I'm certain this has been said a number of times. This being said, I'm not sure why you are asking this... I'm not really interested in debating what to do about health care in this country... Unless your viewpoints have changed, I'm well aware of what they are.

[smacintush]

As long as you hold the idea that it is the duty of the productive to care for the un-productive, we are going to have these budget issues. It is the logical end for people who think it is more socially valuable to TAKE one's money and give it (unearned) to another, and economically expedient to keep increasing welfare spending.

Corrupt politicians actions are still based upon their values. If you value the notion that it is your moral duty to be your brother's keeper, you will be forced to make value-based decisions between welfare spending and fiscal responsibility.

If you reject this fallacy that we MUST care for each other, and recognize the rights of people to earn a living and keep their own property, the decision is much easier, fiscally sound, and moral.

This issue is the problem with BOTH parties, the only difference is the source of their belief. This is your philosophical chickens coming home to roost.

[besson3c]

Speaking only for myself, there is no "duty" or moral angle to this at all, smacintush, although in some cases the moral angle can help bolster this position as an added bonus. I think this is true for many people.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Speaking only for myself, there is no "duty" or moral angle to this at all, smacintush, although in some cases the moral angle can help bolster this position as an added bonus. I think this is true for many people.

Well then, what do you base your desire for "safety nets" on? How about healthcare reform/Obamacare?

[hyteckit]

How do Republicans solve this situation? By screwing US citizens and giving our jobs to foreigners. This is what happens when Republicans are corporate whores.


Outsource US jobs to foreign countries.
Give away more US jobs to non-US citizens through H1 Visas.

House Republicans Move To Increase H1B Visa Quota

Bill Summary & Status - 110th Congress (2007 - 2008) - H.R.1930 - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

Thanks Republican Michele Bachmann, Eric Cantor, John Campbell, and Pete Sessions for selling out Americans to big corporation.

Where do half of illegal immigrations come from? Overstaying their visas.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

could someone please ban this troll.

At any rate, anyone with a brain knows to what side of the middle Cali has been leaning all those years.

-t

In the 7 years that I've been here, I never saw the importance of ignoring certain individuals. I've now got 4 on ignore and I gotta tell ya, the water's fine.

You presented the job numbers in California and to some degree this same problem is evident throughout the country; all pointing to a similar root-cause. Government becomes an ever-larger employer, offering retirement benefits and paying wages the private sector determined long ago was unsustainable not out of mere greed, but out of a business model that cannot survive insolvency. The government, not beholden to the little things we know and love such as a bottom-line and budget, passes more collection plates creating tax rates and an overall legislative climate that is overtly hostile to the actual wealth-creaters in this country. Businesses move, close, or hold the line all of which lead to the chart you show above. It's not rocket science which explains the reaction to your post. Abject stupidity, deflection, feigned confusion, unfunny and irrelevant satire, and trolling.

In other words, precisely the reaction you'd expect from those trying to defend the indefensible.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

How do Republicans solve this situation? By screwing US citizens and giving our jobs to foreigners. This is what happens when Republicans are corporate whores.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

In the 7 years that I've been here, I never saw the importance of ignoring certain individuals. I've now got 4 on ignore and I gotta tell ya, the water's fine.

You're right. It's time to zap that troll.

He's on my ignore list now.

-t

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

You presented the job numbers in California and to some degree this same problem is evident throughout the country; all pointing to a similar root-cause. Government becomes an ever-larger employer, offering retirement benefits and paying wages the private sector determined long ago was unsustainable not out of mere greed, but out of a business model that cannot survive insolvency. The government, not beholden to the little things we know and love such as a bottom-line and budget, passes more collection plates creating tax rates and an overall legislative climate that is overtly hostile to the actual wealth-creaters in this country. Businesses move, close, or hold the line all of which lead to the chart you show above. It's not rocket science which explains the reaction to your post. Abject stupidity, deflection, feigned confusion, unfunny and irrelevant satire, and trolling.

In other words, precisely the reaction you'd expect from those trying to defend the indefensible.

Bravo.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Well then, what do you base your desire for "safety nets" on? How about healthcare reform/Obamacare?

Economic practicality.

[Eug]

Re: Economic practicality: Basically every country with centralized government-sponsored healthcare has cheaper health care per capita than in the US. The US is more expensive by a large margin, and a good chunk of that margin is due to administrative costs.

Some may argue that the US has better health care access, and that may be true for some individual cases, but on a population basis, the US also has worse health care access.

That said, that's not justification for overspending, like with fat government employee pensions.

[turtle777]

I think we should leave the health-care debate out of this specific topic, since it's NOT the main cause of CA's problems, and [Obama Care] also not something that will save them (quite the contrary, it will make their fiscal problems and deficits even worse).

-t

[Eug]

How much power does Arnie have to address this? What is the general feeling of the population about it?

Not by any means the same thing, but I just remember when the city garbage workers locally went on strike because the (lefty) mayor and city council balked at renewing their overly fat benefits package. The population nearly universally opposed the union. The (lefty) mayor eventually partially capitulated which is disappointing, but that's besides the point. The point is that although everyone was pissed off because of the strike, even near the end of the strike the population didn't want to give the union the fat benefits package.

What is the population of California saying? Would a righty candidate campaigning on the platform of pension reform get votes?

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Eug 

What is the population of California saying? Would a righty candidate campaigning on the platform of pension reform get votes?

Here? I doubt it. Everyone wants the services/programs/etc., but nobody wants to pay for it. So spending goes up, up, up.

And the education budget and city governments suffer for it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Brien 

Here? I doubt it. Everyone wants the services/programs/etc., but nobody wants to pay for it. So spending goes up, up, up.

And the education budget and city governments suffer for it.

That's pretty depressing. And indicates that there is (realistically) no other way out than a bust.

I think the attitude is not that different in other states. Generally, Americans are not willing to make the cuts necessary. We're running towards that cliff eyes wide open.

-t

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I think we should leave the health-care debate out of this specific topic, since it's NOT the main cause of CA's problems, and [Obama Care] also not something that will save them (quite the contrary, it will make their fiscal problems and deficits even worse).

-t

Good job doing your part to make sure this discussion isn't about health care.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That's pretty depressing. And indicates that there is (realistically) no other way out than a bust.

I think the attitude is not that different in other states. Generally, Americans are not willing to make the cuts necessary. We're running towards that cliff eyes wide open.

-t

Yeah. We owe so much money to China and yet we're just burning money for Project A and Study B, that there is no way this can be a long-term solution. I really fear for our solvency if we continue to borrow money left and right (pun intended).