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Religion: How can so many be so stupid? (Page 2)
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ironknee
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May 23, 2007, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
But Big Mac, indulge me in a little thought experiment:

You fall unexpectedly, irrepressibly, and deeply in love with a Chinese person who practices Falun Gong. What do you do?
very good experiment

i could fall in love with a woman who is christian. i don't think i could control the love part.

btw, freud would say i am falling in love with someone who reminds me of my mother (good or bad)
     
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May 23, 2007, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
You can't play the anti-Semite card. . .
I didn't call you an anti-Semite. I was just responding to the various ways you expressed your hatred of religions.

And as far "perpetuating my race" goes, race is increasingly becoming a meaningless distinction:
I wasn't talking about race. I was talking about religion.

You fall unexpectedly, irrepressibly, and deeply in love with a Chinese person who practices Falun Gong. What do you do?
I don't really see how I could fall in love with a member of a small, repressed Chinese sect. But if that were to happen, before entertaining marriage to her she would need to become a Jew through the conversion process. If she did not sincerely want to be a Jew, then we would remain friends but nothing more would result from the relationship.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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May 23, 2007, 08:21 PM
 
"How can so many be so stupid?"

Simple, it's called socialization. Religion is learned through culture and/or forced upon people/cultures by violence and other means.
     
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May 24, 2007, 12:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
If you can choose, it's not falling in love.
I would have to disagree. I believe that if we are really honest with ourselves we will see that when we fall in love there is a point in which we are choosing to allow ourselves to get taken in deeper. It's the same with falling OUT of love. (IMHO of course)
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May 24, 2007, 12:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
"How can so many be so stupid?"

Simple, it's called socialization. Religion is learned through culture and/or forced upon people/cultures by violence and other means.
I don't know if I would call it forced but I tend to agree. To put it simply, people are religious because they are told to be in either their families or their cultures or both.

It's strange to me that most anyone wouldn't let their parents dictate to them who the "proper and rightful" person to be our next President is, but we sure let them tell us if and who to worship. (yes, I'm generalizing, but generally I believe this to be the case.)
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May 24, 2007, 12:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I possess a religion handed down to me from my forefathers. I consider it to be true. You do not have such a tradition, and that's fine. But declaring in blanket fashion something you have no knowledge of to be stupid is, well, ignorant.
If I could say so, hopefully not so tactlessly as our OP, but is the fact that it's handed down by your forefathers really a compelling argument for its truth?

Perhaps clinging to groundless beliefs simply because others have before you is "ignorant."
     
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May 24, 2007, 12:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I don't know if I would call it forced but I tend to agree. To put it simply, people are religious because they are told to be in either their families or their cultures or both.

It's strange to me that most anyone wouldn't let their parents dictate to them who the "proper and rightful" person to be our next President is, but we sure let them tell us if and who to worship. (yes, I'm generalizing, but generally I believe this to be the case.)
I disagree.

There are enough stories of life-long atheists turning to religion later in life and of people rejecting their parents' faith yet still adopting some religion of their own that I don't think we can dismiss religion as simple socialization.

I think that religion is a basic construction of human psychology, a basic response to the uncertainty of the universe. We have a need to use our big brains to imagine or impose an overarching order on creation, to make the universe comprehensible. God as father, or the universe as conflict-driven drama helps us understand that which otherwise would be mystery.

In short, we humans seem to need religion. No other human construct, social or individual, has been quite so enduring. Religion must serve much more purpose and be much more effective in ordering our lives than you give it credit for, lest it should surely have fallen by the wayside as humanity evolved.
     
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May 24, 2007, 12:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You make it sound like the person has no say in falling in love. I think I can control who I fall in love with.
Really? What kind of android are you.

Love doesn't obey, doesn't fetch, doesn't play dead.

If I can be so bold: If you have that much control over it, then it's not love.

You might be able to control yourself when you're in love--that I've had to do myself--but the love itself...nah, that's a force of nature.

Go exert your control over the tropical storm forming in the Atlantic. You'll have about as much luck.
     
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May 24, 2007, 01:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
I disagree.

There are enough stories of life-long atheists turning to religion later in life and of people rejecting their parents' faith yet still adopting some religion of their own that I don't think we can dismiss religion as simple socialization.
I don't think it is merely socialization, but it is a huge part of it. Let's go back in time and take those same "Atheists" out of the religious cultures in which they lived and see if they still "converted".

I don't think that that choosing a religion different from their parents' an any way counters my argument. For one, I think it is pretty damn rare for anyone to convert to a religion that is vastly different from the one or one's in their surrounding culture. How many times do you think that anyone from Alabama has converted to Hinduism?

I don't think that an Atheist raised by Baptists converting to Catholicism or even Judaism is that big of a leap.

In actuality neither of us can say at all whether our arguments really hold water, as their is no way to really test or study our opinions properly.
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May 24, 2007, 01:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Really? What kind of android are you.

Love doesn't obey, doesn't fetch, doesn't play dead.

If I can be so bold: If you have that much control over it, then it's not love.

You might be able to control yourself when you're in love--that I've had to do myself--but the love itself...nah, that's a force of nature.

Go exert your control over the tropical storm forming in the Atlantic. You'll have about as much luck.
I don't think this is true at all.

The attractions you may feel for another may for the most part be out of your conscious control but love…to a great degree…is.

Is love something that just "hits you"? It's not like winning the lottery or losing at roulette. Falling in love is a process just like any other. Sometimes it happens slowly, other times more quickly but it is a process nonetheless. At some point in that process we say to ourselves "this is going to happen". (so to speak)

I think that people are out of touch with their emotions and they tend to let their emotions express themselves through them, rather than mindfully expressing them. In any emotional process there is a point of choice that is all to often overlooked and ignored. The point in which we choose to say something we regret in anger, or we choose to do something unhealthy out of sadness. It's the same with falling in love. Their IS a point of choice but most of us don't see it.

IMHO.
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Tiresias  (op)
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May 24, 2007, 02:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Really? What kind of android are you.

Love doesn't obey, doesn't fetch, doesn't play dead.

If I can be so bold: If you have that much control over it, then it's not love.

You might be able to control yourself when you're in love--that I've had to do myself--but the love itself...nah, that's a force of nature.

Go exert your control over the tropical storm forming in the Atlantic. You'll have about as much luck.
Agree (It's the romantic in me )
     
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May 24, 2007, 02:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I don't think this is true at all.

The attractions you may feel for another may for the most part be out of your conscious control but love…to a great degree…is.

Is love something that just "hits you"? It's not like winning the lottery or losing at roulette. Falling in love is a process just like any other. Sometimes it happens slowly, other times more quickly but it is a process nonetheless. At some point in that process we say to ourselves "this is going to happen". (so to speak)

I think that people are out of touch with their emotions and they tend to let their emotions express themselves through them, rather than mindfully expressing them. In any emotional process there is a point of choice that is all to often overlooked and ignored. The point in which we choose to say something we regret in anger, or we choose to do something unhealthy out of sadness. It's the same with falling in love. Their IS a point of choice but most of us don't see it.

IMHO.
But smacintush, consider: People fall in love with the "wrong" people all the time. Women fall in love with abusive men, serial killers in jail, deadbeats and alcoholics. Teachers fall in love with students and visa versa. Married men fall in love with mistresses, etc..

But by using the word "choose" you are implying that there is some kind of rationalisation involved here. You might persist that people choose to fall in love with the wrong people, against their own interests, but in that case, you have to subtract rationality from the equation, and the "choice" begins to look a lot like falling in love. No?
     
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May 24, 2007, 02:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
But smacintush, consider: People fall in love with the "wrong" people all the time. Women fall in love with abusive men, serial killers in jail, deadbeats and alcoholics. Teachers fall in love with students and visa versa. Married men fall in love with mistresses, etc..
And how many of those are emotionally healthy people?

I mean, I don't know how old you are but assuming you are an adult, how many 16 year old girls have YOU fallen in love with?
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May 24, 2007, 02:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
And how many of those are emotionally healthy people?

I mean, I don't know how old you are but assuming you are an adult, how many 16 year old girls have YOU fallen in love with?


Ignoratio elenchi much?
     
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May 24, 2007, 02:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
but in that case, you have to subtract rationality from the equation, and the "choice" begins to look a lot like falling in love. No?
That's because "falling in love" is somewhat of a a misnomer. I mean, are you really "falling" "into" something? Or is something arising within you?

Thoughts and emotions come up of their own accord, but it's what you DO and where you GO with them that is up to you. Is love merely an emotion that arises and dissipates like anger? Or is it something MORE than that? Or is it something that we ALLOW to arise as the RESULT of emotions.
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May 24, 2007, 02:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
Well obviously if this was something that is out of our control and just hits us like a "force of nature" then perfectly "mature", "healthy" and "content" people with no significant emotional problems would be just "falling" for people they have no business being involved with, right?
( Last edited by smacintush; May 24, 2007 at 03:05 AM. )
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Tiresias  (op)
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May 24, 2007, 03:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Well obviously if this was something that is out of our control and just hits us like a "force of nature" then perfectly "mature" and "healthy" people with no significant emotional problems would be just "falling" for people they have no business being involved with, right?
I maintain that love knows no social, class-based, moral or religious bounds. And Shakespeare agrees. But perhaps you have a bit of an ulterior motive in arguing that you can control who you love, because it would put you in danger of going against your religion if you could not, and were capable of falling in love with the hypothetical Chinese Falun Gong proselyte I mentioned earlier.

And that's a shame, because she has a smoking body.
     
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May 24, 2007, 03:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I don't think this is true at all.

The attractions you may feel for another may for the most part be out of your conscious control but love…to a great degree…is.

Is love something that just "hits you"? It's not like winning the lottery or losing at roulette. Falling in love is a process just like any other. Sometimes it happens slowly, other times more quickly but it is a process nonetheless. At some point in that process we say to ourselves "this is going to happen". (so to speak)

I think that people are out of touch with their emotions and they tend to let their emotions express themselves through them, rather than mindfully expressing them. In any emotional process there is a point of choice that is all to often overlooked and ignored. The point in which we choose to say something we regret in anger, or we choose to do something unhealthy out of sadness. It's the same with falling in love. Their IS a point of choice but most of us don't see it.

IMHO.
You acknowledge that we cannot control the "attractions" we feel towards other people... in the end, love is just a little trick we play on ourselves to promote our often life-long pair-bonding, and in the end is simply a manifestation of those attractions that we decide to call "love".

You also acknowledge that it takes place slowly - indeed, too slowly to say "whoa, this is the point where I decide whether I'm gonna fall in love... hmm... nope, not today". Once you're there, it's too late.
     
Cipher13
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May 24, 2007, 03:23 AM
 
I also find it quite amusing that for the first time in the Lounge's history, a religious topic has been derailed and turned into a discussion about love rather than hate.

There's a first time for everything...
     
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May 24, 2007, 03:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
I maintain that love knows no social, class-based, moral or religious bounds.
And I maintain that as long YOU maintain that, then it never will in YOUR life.

But perhaps you have a bit of an ulterior motive in arguing that you can control who you love, because it would put you in danger of going against your religion if you could not, and were capable of falling in love with the hypothetical Chinese Falun Gong proselyte I mentioned earlier.
I don't have a religion. I am an atheist meditator whose "beliefs" mostly resemble Taoist philosophy.
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May 24, 2007, 03:34 AM
 
A religion thread that derailed into a discussion about love. Now THAT has got to be a MacNN first.

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May 24, 2007, 03:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cipher13 View Post
I also find it quite amusing that for the first time in the Lounge's history, a religious topic has been derailed and turned into a discussion about love rather than hate.

There's a first time for everything...
You have to be kidding me! I had typed my out half an hour ago and forgot to hit send when I got derailed at work

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May 24, 2007, 03:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cipher13 View Post
You acknowledge that we cannot control the "attractions" we feel towards other people... in the end, love is just a little trick we play on ourselves to promote our often life-long pair-bonding, and in the end is simply a manifestation of those attractions that we decide to call "love".

You also acknowledge that it takes place slowly - indeed, too slowly to say "whoa, this is the point where I decide whether I'm gonna fall in love... hmm... nope, not today". Once you're there, it's too late.
Well, this topic has been discussed ad infinitum by philosophers, theologists and play-writes far greater than I. I guess I'm coming across a little to sure of myself, but then again so are some others.

What I write is from my own personal experience as someone who has fallen in love with another woman other than my wife of 12 years, during a time in my life when I was meditating and "introspecting" (is that a word?) daily. After about 5 years what I stated is what I observed for myself.

In five years perhaps my view will have changed…
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Tiresias  (op)
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May 24, 2007, 03:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Well, this topic has been discussed ad infinitum by philosophers, theologists and play-writes far greater than I. I guess I'm coming across a little to sure of myself, but then again so are some others.

What I write is from my own personal experience as someone who has fallen in love with another woman other than my wife of 12 years, during a time in my life when I was meditating and "introspecting" (is that a word?) daily. After about 5 years what I stated is what I observed for myself.

In five years perhaps my view will have changed…
I have no problem with the idea you can or have learnt to control who you fall in love with. It seems possible, but if true, you are unique.
     
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May 24, 2007, 04:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
I have no problem with the idea you can or have learnt to control who you fall in love with.
Perhaps the word control is not the right one. I think it's not a matter of jumping into a precipice as much as it is not resisting falling into it. (I think the ones that "jump" are usually the ones who end up with problems…) That's not the same control as in ego-control like we normally think of.

It seems possible, but if true, you are unique.
No, I'm not that unique. There are plenty of others who feel as I do. Perhaps I am only in a minority of people who have actually observed it.
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Tiresias  (op)
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May 24, 2007, 04:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Perhaps the word control is not the right one. I think it's not a matter of jumping into a precipice as much as it is not resisting falling into it. (I think the ones that "jump" are usually the ones who end up with problems…) That's not the same control as in ego-control like we normally think of.

No, I'm not that unique. There are plenty of others who feel as I do. Perhaps I am only in a minority of people who have actually observed it.
I guess what I mean is, I believe it's possible, and perhaps inevitable, for a religion to indoctrinate against unconditional love.
     
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May 24, 2007, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
People fall in love with the "wrong" people all the time. Women fall in love with abusive men, serial killers in jail, deadbeats and alcoholics. Teachers fall in love with students and visa versa. Married men fall in love with mistresses, etc..
See Ladder Theory, Outlaw Biker part.
( Last edited by Doofy; May 24, 2007 at 10:35 AM. )
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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May 24, 2007, 08:39 AM
 
[QUOTE=Doofy;3388153]
Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie View Post
People fall in love with the "wrong" people all the time. Women fall in love with abusive men, serial killers in jail, deadbeats and alcoholics. Teachers fall in love with students and visa versa. Married men fall in love with mistresses, etc../QUOTE]

See Ladder Theory, Outlaw Biker part.
You mean this:

Outlaw Biker The prototype of everything women say they don't want but really do. And you will know him by his forearm tattoo, 'street smarts,' weed connection, domestic violence convictions, and the fact that the women you are an intellectual whore to are always complaining about him to you before they go off to **** him, or leave you in a bar to go home with him.
Ha ha. That website is kinda funny.

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html
     
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May 24, 2007, 08:46 AM
 
You don't have to be dumb to be in need of comforting answers, scared that you are going to die and perturbed by natures indifference to your existence. This generally bums us all out a bit. Even the most Intelligent people can embrace a comforting delusion.

Whatever gets you through the night, it's all good, but personally I would suggest you choose THOR!

He has a big hammer, rides a chariot pulled by goats, has a magic belt, thunders around the sky generally crushing whoever stands in his way, listens to heavy metal (probably), will feast at Valhalla with the Valkyrie and fight at the mighty Ragnarok, plus he even has his own comic book.



Worship THOR! You know it makes sense.
( Last edited by Graviton; May 24, 2007 at 09:15 AM. Reason: THOR!)
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I don't really see how I could fall in love with a member of a small, repressed Chinese sect. But if that were to happen, before entertaining marriage to her she would need to become a Jew through the conversion process. If she did not sincerely want to be a Jew, then we would remain friends but nothing more would result from the relationship.

Wow, that would suck... I hope this never happens to you.

Why do you feel this strongly? What's the big deal if she has different religious beliefs than you? Why must she have identical religious beliefs?
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:09 AM
 
He said he needs to perpetuate his religion.
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
He said he needs to perpetuate his religion.
Really? Why is that Big Mac? I don't get it.
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:20 AM
 
Because they are dwindling.
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:23 AM
 
Thor on the other hand doesn't care what religion your chick is. Just as long as you get plenty and she doesn't complain when you stay out all night drinking with the guys.

Try THOR! Satisfactions guaranteed!
Pray to Thor for 50 days and if unbelievably you are not satisfied, you can have your prayers back, no charge.*





*Warning: May get crushed by Mjolnir, his mighty war hammer.
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Because they are dwindling.
Would God let that happen?
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Because they are dwindling.

So, write a book or something... Marrying another Jew does not ensure that the population grows or does not stagnate in upcoming generations, and even if you get your breeding on this will only cover one more generation. Reaching out to people with a book or some other form of media seems like it would be a much more effective way to keep numbers up.

Why deny yourself of something that every human being needs and wants for this?
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why deny yourself of something that every human being needs and wants for this?
Considering all the sacrifices one must do when following religion, I bet this is just seen as another one to be made in the name of their faith.
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Considering all the sacrifices one must do when following religion, I bet this is just seen as another one to be made in the name of their faith.

Maybe these sorts of sacrifices that seem to have no logical purpose are keeping numbers down?

Here's a sacrifice: how about the religions of the world stop spilling blood over how and what humans ought to sacrifice?
     
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May 24, 2007, 09:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Maybe these sorts of sacrifices that seem to have no logical purpose are keeping numbers down?
Religion isn't about logic.
     
Laminar
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May 24, 2007, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Helmling View Post
Really? What kind of android are you.

Love doesn't obey, doesn't fetch, doesn't play dead.

If I can be so bold: If you have that much control over it, then it's not love.

You might be able to control yourself when you're in love--that I've had to do myself--but the love itself...nah, that's a force of nature.

Go exert your control over the tropical storm forming in the Atlantic. You'll have about as much luck.
Well, this is my experience:
I met a girl. She was smart, attractive, and funny. That was cool. I started spending time with her, helping her out with stuff, etc. Over time I got to know her better, we started "officially" dating, and I fell in love. Sure, there have been girls I've been "infatuated" with, but I've never experienced an uncontrollable "love" for a girl.
     
Dakarʒ
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May 24, 2007, 09:49 AM
 
Well, it's not like you're 40.
     
JonoMarshall
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May 24, 2007, 10:03 AM
 
I was all riled, then read some other threads and came back with a "meh" attitude.

Believe whatever keeps you sane.. you either live a good life or a bad one.

Personally I think the first and foremost thing to do in life is get past what Lacan calls the "mirror phrase": you are not the centre of the universe.

Persecondly I feel that all religions are simply a collection of unquestioned philosophical thoughts that may (or may not) be in need of downgrading to align with our unrewarding, yet modern world.

Per, hmm, I live my life as a very happy bunny... I'm not religious.
     
besson3c
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May 24, 2007, 10:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
Religion isn't about logic.

Agreed, which is why the world will be better served when people stop trying to convert and neatly explain away their religion in a logical manner. It is not logic, it is faith, which can only be experienced. There is nothing anybody can do or say to offer me these experiences. Also, it cannot be deduced that the fact I haven't had these experiences is due to by being closed minded or any other personal shortcoming.
     
Big Mac
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May 24, 2007, 10:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, write a book or something... Marrying another Jew does not ensure that the population grows or does not stagnate in upcoming generations, and even if you get your breeding on this will only cover one more generation. Reaching out to people with a book or some other form of media seems like it would be a much more effective way to keep numbers up.
I am not saying my potential offspring would necessarily contribute all that much to future generations of Jews. Moreover, let me clarify the point that I also believe Judaism will survive in spite of anything any earthly power does. I am saying that if I were to get married, it would be to a Jew because I cannot understand not sharing the same religion; if I were to have children they would have to be born to a Jewish mother. If my children felt it proper to carry on in my tradition (in the tradition of my parents and their parents, so on and so forth), that would be up to them, but whatever the case may be in the future these are just core principles of mine that are not subject to change.

Why deny yourself of something that every human being needs and wants for this?
Love? Companionship? Yeah, those are things I desire, but I am not ruled by my desires. My desires are subordinate to my intellect. While many of you don't think religion is rational or intellectual, I personally do, and my religion is one of the key intellectual foundations that guide my conduct. The type of girl I wish to be with is my call, and while I appreciate your ostensible concern for my needs, simple self-gratification isn't my highest objective.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Dakarʒ
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May 24, 2007, 10:23 AM
 
I wouldn't consider love and companionship 'simple gratification'. Quite the opposite, actually.
     
Graviton
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May 24, 2007, 10:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Rumor View Post
I don't need a fantasy novel to tell me how to be moral.
I learned everything I need to know about morality from the Evil Dead Trilogy.
     
Big Mac
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May 24, 2007, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
I wouldn't consider love and companionship 'simple gratification'. Quite the opposite, actually.
Love and companionship can amount to simple self-gratification if a person treats it that way. People get together in transitory relationships in which they feel those things for short periods of time. Such love is often at a superficial level. That's not what I want.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
nonhuman
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May 24, 2007, 10:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Graviton View Post
I learned everything I need to know about morality from the Evil Dead Trilogy.
What's that got to do with fantasy?
     
Dakarʒ
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May 24, 2007, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Love and companionship can amount to simple self-gratification if a person treats it that way. People get together in transitory relationships in which they feel those things for short periods of time. Such love is often at a superficial level. That's not what I want.
That's fine, but we were talking about marriage, so that really doesn't apply.
     
Big Mac
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May 24, 2007, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Dakarʒ View Post
That's fine, but we were talking about marriage, so that really doesn't apply.
You're telling me that people never get married for the wrong reasons? I guess that's why marriage is so successful in America.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
 
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