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WinTroll · Sep 20, 2003, 03:39 PM

OK. I am a switcher.

I went to a friends house to play some network games. In the past, I naturally brought my PC.

But this time I proudly brought my iMAC to show off. Everyone was impressed and even jealous.

BUT, I was not able to install the Clone Campaign (Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds) because the installer would just beachball on me. Rebooting and retrying did not help. I still cannot install the add-on pack to play with my PC friends. BUT WAIT!!!! As I look around the website for a fix, I read a tech support article that states that Star Wars Galactic Battleground DOES NOT work with the PC versions. YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME!

They claim that the network protocol is different. Different? TCPIP is TCPIP. And why would make it not work with the PC version. You just cutoff Mac users from 96% of the population. I thought the Mac was about interoperability?

The same support article references Age of Kings NOT working with the PC version either. I just cannot believe this. I know during the old AppleTalk days, this was the way it was for obvious reasons. But now that OSX is TCPIP, there is simply no excuse for this.

I am installing RTCW now in the hopes that I can somehow salvage the day with my friends. They are laughing at me as I type this and heaping insults like there is no tomorrow.

Why is this? And why didn't the boxes state this so I would have been warned before purchase?

brown monk · Sep 20, 2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by WinTroll:

I am installing RTCW now in the hopes that I can somehow salvage the day with my friends. They are laughing at me as I type this and heaping insults like there is no tomorrow.

Why is this? And why didn't the boxes state this so I would have been warned before purchase?

RTCW should be fine. You'll always be fine with a game that comes from Blizzard or id.

TCP/IP has been around for a while in the Mac world. However, I believe the problems come from PC developers using DirectX to the "fullest" (not just for graphics, but also sound and networking, etc.). This can sometimes make it very difficult or impossible to port the game and so they basically end up making a version just for the Mac.

Old Mac users can probably remember Half-Life being partially cancelled because of a similar problem (i.e. PCs and Macs not being able to play over a network).

As far as the game box not having a label stating this fact, you should complain and probably get your money back.

WinTroll · Sep 20, 2003, 05:59 PM

RTCW does not work with the PC version either.

And I have been humiliated in front of all my friends as well.

I will NOT forget this day.

At this point, I don't know if it is even worth my time to try to mess with UT3K (which takes more than an HOUR to install).

I must say that gaming on the Mac is an unfortunate joke.

I am very dissapointed.

Luca Rescigno · Sep 20, 2003, 06:15 PM

SWGB and Age of Kings (same exact game) use GameRanger for the Mac version and some other game network for the PC version. I don't know why they don't put them on the same network.

It just goes to show that Blizzard is teh win! Mac and PC versions of War3 and FT are included on every CD, so you don't have to buy them separately. They work on the same Battle.net network, which is an excellent way of keeping people honest. Blizzard and Ambrosia Software are the two software companies I respect enough to actually pay for their software.

By the way, you should be laughing at them for playing SWGB instead of a cool game like Warcraft III or Starcraft (which also rules). Age Of Kings is a boring RTS that focuses too heavily on swarming the enemy and not enough on tactics. It's also boring because there are like 20 civilizations you can play, but they're all the same with the exception of a few minor differences.

EDIT: UT 2003 does work between Macs and PCs. So does original Unreal Tournament, and Quake 3 Arena (I think).

atomiclotusbox · Sep 20, 2003, 07:57 PM

I didn't realize there were all these games that weren't cross-platform play.

I'm glad all my friends use mac.

ramberk · Sep 20, 2003, 08:04 PM

So RTCW doesn't have cross platform network play? Can someone clarify this cause I'm looking for a good FPS but I'd like to have one with cross platform play.

Sosa · Sep 20, 2003, 08:24 PM

It is not fair to blame the Mac for incompatability with PC in games. As was said earlier, it has to do with adoptation of a Microsoft's DirectX. Not all games use this, and there are some cool games out there for the Mac which work with PC. Among them Warcraft III, Unreal, and others like Master of Orion III.

The Mac is a great experience. If all you care about is games though you will have some difficulties. There are great Mac games available, but PC compatability is not common.

Finally, I would be laughing at your PC weeny friends and their Wintel boxes. With a few exceptions, most PC machines are ugly and we all know Windows sucks!

macenthusiast · Sep 21, 2003, 04:51 AM

i don't know what the hell is wrong with your computer, but RTCW IS CROSS PLATFORM!!! you can definitely play it with pc's... I do it all the time. There must be something wrong with your settings, i have no idea, but if you are running rtcw on a mac, you CAN connect to a pc server, with other pc users.

mac freak · Sep 21, 2003, 10:44 AM

UT2K3 is cross-platform, so is RTCW, and Quake 3, and the original UT, and I think Jedi Outcast is, but don't quote me on that.

Gul Banana · Sep 21, 2003, 11:33 AM

Damnit, when will people stop replying to this guy's threads? His username is WinTroll. He always starts out with a reasonable statement (i.e. frustration that ST:GB uses DirectPlay) and then transitions from that into lies, such as RTCW not working crossplatform, and then just makes several inflammatory comments.

ambush · Sep 21, 2003, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
Damnit, when will people stop replying to this guy's threads? His username is WinTroll. He always starts out with a reasonable statement (i.e. frustration that ST:GB uses DirectPlay) and then transitions from that into lies, such as RTCW not working crossplatform, and then just makes several inflammatory comments.

I think you're the zealot here.

0kama · Sep 21, 2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by mac freak:
UT2K3 is cross-platform, so is RTCW, and Quake 3, and the original UT, and I think Jedi Outcast is, but don't quote me on that.

Jedi Outcast is cross-platform.

sleepyrenderer · Sep 21, 2003, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
He always starts out with a reasonable statement (i.e. frustration that ST:GB uses DirectPlay) and then transitions from that into lies, such as RTCW not working crossplatform

Actually, his second statement isn't so unbelievable. The Mac version of RTCW has had a rocky history when it comes to compatibility with the Windows version, usually because the Mac patches lag behind the Windows updates.

Currently though, a lot of Mac users who install 1.41b have trouble connecting to PC 1.4x Punkbuster enabled servers (which are most of them). I'd imagine this is the issue WinTroll ran into here. One work-around is to extract MP_BIN.PK3 from the Windows 1.41 final patch (it's a slightly different size than the Mac version) and copy it your Mac install... some people also have some success with doing a clean install of RTCW and installing the latest patch from there.

Another possibility is they were running RTCW - ET, in which case he's out of luck.

Vash · Sep 21, 2003, 02:55 PM

I have had RtCW for mac since it's day of release. And have NEVER had any problems with networking with other PC server/lan games. Sure, it was about a week before that info came out about the special PC Files you could put in your folder, but there were plenty of servers still running the old version for one week. I was one of the first couple of people to do this though, and Aspyr or any other site didn't announce this information for quite a while. I got it off of a forum it originated from. But anyway, Gul Banana is right about this guy. Just look at his name. Also, the non-network compatibility is the PC programmer's fault. They should go with TCP/IP for networking any and all games. There is no reason not to, it just complicates things for the people who end up porting the game for the Mac(or Linux). Majority of the Mac games out there are definetly cross-platform networkable though.

rcitrin · Sep 21, 2003, 06:43 PM

Frankly, I fail to see what the problem is!!

Simply find yourself some new friends, friends with the good sense to use macs.

Gul Banana · Sep 21, 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by ambush:
I think you're the zealot here.

That's actually the first time anybody's called me a Mac zealot - my other Mac-using friends always accuse me of liking other platforms too much

However, you could be right; if WinTroll is sincere, I apologise to him. If so, though, it's a very misleading name!

WinTroll · Sep 21, 2003, 10:59 PM

Thanks Ambush for the supportive comment.

Wintroll was an old handle I used. It was meant as a joke. And I was too lazy to go back and change it.

I do indeed have an iMAC and I did indeed have those problems. I have logged hundreds of LAN gaming party hours. And even more playing at home. Most of those hours are in the WinTel gaming world. But gaming is gaming regardless.

RTCW is NOT, repeat NOT playable on the LAN (keyword is LAN, not Internet servers) with the PC version. So why would I do that? Duh! I go to some friends houses to play on their local area network. Why would we send our traffic across the internet to a RTCW server when we are only playing with the folks that come over to the LAN gaming party. You are inducing unnecessary latency and problems.

Unreal 2003K may be playable against the PC version, but it took so long to install (over an hour, and the iMAC locked up beach ball solid right in the middle, which pissed me off even more because I had to bear the brunt of more friendly insults). So I never got to install the game and try it. They went on and played something else without me.

Warcraft III is becoming less RTS and more RPG. Making it entirely less fun for our group.

The Apple hardware and OSX are not at fault here. Simply the pathetic ports of PC games are fault. And while many PC games use DirectX/DirectPlay, how hard is that to emulate support for. They all talk TCPIP for starters which makes it that much easier. And since the Linux/BSD crowd have virtually emulated all sorts of Microsoft interconnectivity, you would think this would be easier. But I guess that notion never crossed the port companies minds (aspyer, macsoft, etc.). They are used to having Mac users segregated from the bulk of the gaming community from the days of AppleTalk (as opposed to OSX's native TCPIP). They figure you won't care or complain.

RTCW Internet play was equally as frustrating. Wow! Nearly 20 online servers for me to choose from. As opposed to Half-Life on the PC, which had 100's if not 1000's. And nearly half those that I tried claimed that some file or another was "unpure". So I reinstalled again and again (while my friends were having a good time network gaming, of course). Sure, they were most likely running MOD's but the game won't automatically download and install them. Heck, it won't even tell me where to find them or their names!

Does anyone know why Unreal 2003K takes so damn long to install?

Gul Banana may think I am truly "trolling" but that is NOT the case. I spent well over $3,000 for my iMAC by getting all sorts of software, games, books, speakers, magazines, etc. EyeTV is awesome on the Mac. Everything similar on the PC is f'ing horrible in comparison. And while REALbasic is not Visual Basic, it is no slouch either. But I should have enquired more before making the switch.

So I have to go to work tomorrow and suffer all the Mac jokes from gamer coworkers. I don't look forward to it.

WinTroll · Sep 21, 2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by Vash:
...about the special PC Files you could put in your folder,

Special PC Files? RTCW docs make no mention of such a thing. This is a hack that may work, but it is not officially supported. Frankly, I don't care either way, I just want the damn game to work as advertised. No where on the box did it state that it did not work with the PC version. Wouldn't you think that would be some worthwhile information to put in small print on the outside of the box?

Originally posted by Vash:
Also, the non-network compatibility is the PC programmer's fault. They should go with TCP/IP for networking any and all games.

All PC network games are TCP/IP and have been for a long time. They own 96% of the gaming market. Like or not. It is the Mac game manufacturers who are responsible.

You see, I don't care about the OS debate. It's just an OS. The gaming is what matters. Debate the war or abortion for something more important or meaningful than XP vs OSX.

My issue is with games who should be fully compatible with their PC versions. I expected to fully be able to play with any SWGB or RTCW player, regardless of his OS. It should certainly have been a requirement when they ported these games.

goMac · Sep 21, 2003, 11:29 PM

Uhhhh.... Lasy LAN party I went to I played RTCW on a LAN with PC's. The server was even a PC server. Worked great. No issues at all. RTCW is fully PC game compatible.

As was Warcraft 3, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3...

Counter Strike was a problem. It ran poorly under Virtual PC on my G3/400.

Are you sure you have the network multiplayer Window configured properly and are running the same patch as your Windows friends? At the LAN party I went to everyone updated to the latest patch so we were all running the same version...

sideus · Sep 21, 2003, 11:35 PM

RTCW plays just fine for me against PC users. And I had plenty of servers to choose from.

WinTroll · Sep 21, 2003, 11:41 PM

My name is misleading. Perhaps I should tell the story to explain the name. Long ago, back before OSX came into existence, I used to do exactly what you stated. I would "troll", although I considered it intelligent debate.

I always thought Apple hardware was cool and top notch but OS8/9 were horrible. Similar traits to Win31.

But then came OSX. Unix, with a glossy interface. Now I was curious. So I watched and waited and eventually bought an eMac when they first came out for non-students. I loved it at first. But the finder was really killing me (File Explorer in Win2000/XP is awesome) and it was more of an experiment for me. So I sold it to a friend for a good price.

But my latent "switcher" feelings never left. And one day, I could no longer resist. I bought a brand new 17" iMac and gave my WinXP laptop to a family member (for the brownie points, no $$$). I bought all sorts of stuff and indulged myself fully into Apple. I bought it all from the local Apple too (instead of CompU$A).

And while I love the iMac and OSX, the gaming part ....... well, sucks. Those games that I have are:

Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds w/Clone pack
Age of Empires II Gold Edition
Unreal 2003
Return to Castle Wolfenstein

I bought these games specifically because I have played the PC versions and enjoy them greatly. Plus my friends (PC users) play them as well. I read reviews, this newsgroup, read the outside of the boxes small print and no where did it mention "PC incompatibility".

2000/XP and OSX both use TCP/IP natively. Back when Apple used AppleTalk only, well, no kidding, they weren't going to talk with each other. But that should not be a problem anymore.

What I am saying is that Mac users should be demanding full compatibility with the PC versions. It opens up a huge population of gamers. Screw the OS debate. Who cares what OS they are using, you just want to game with them?

So once I became a "switcher", I realized my handle might not be appropriate or accurate anymore. But I am too lazy to change it.

So there you have it.....

WinTroll · Sep 21, 2003, 11:47 PM

Can you folks who claim that you are able to play with your PC friends explain to me what you did to make that happen?

What patches, fixes, hacks did you apply?

And yes.....I did have the Multiplayer configured properly.

I would love to go back to next months LAN party with the iMAC and play a couple of games. Even if they asked me NOT to bring it again.

I was even considering purchasing the 15" PowerBook to make the gaming easier.

Does Virtual PC let you run PC games OK? I had considered it, but figured it would be too slow. I have 512 meg RAM in my iMac.

Thanks!

goMac · Sep 22, 2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by WinTroll:
What patches, fixes, hacks did you apply?

I simply applied the latest patch from Aspyr. No hacks.

macenthusiast · Sep 22, 2003, 01:23 AM

wintroll go to http://rtcw.clanmacaddict.com

there are many mac gamers over there that are dedicated to rtcw. They have helped many people with update issues. I figure that you are not at the latest patch. Go there and register with the forums, and then post on "the beach" you will get a response within a few hours.

a2daj · Sep 22, 2003, 01:54 AM

It seems many people here don't understand some of the basics of networking gaming protocols. There's more to networking than TCP/IP. Those behind firewalls and/or routers know that sometimes you have to open up ports to specific types of protocols (like TCP or UDP). Most games these days don't use TCP for in game data flow, they usually use UDP. TCP guarantees the delivery of the network packets in order. UDP doesn't. In an app where you want the correct packets, like a Web Page, an email message, or binary file, you would use TCP/IP.

TCP expects an Acknoledgement to be sent by the destination for every packet it sends. If no ACK is sent, then it won't send anymore packets. Instead it resends the 'lost' packet until it does receive an ACk, then it will send the rest.

As you can see, this won't be a good idea to use during gameplay in a modern network game as netlag and lost packets would kill the game play even on a broadband connection. During setup, it would work just fine to make sure the game is in a good state before you actually start playing.

UDP doesn't guarnetee delivery or order but it's a lot faster than TCP. Games these days are usually designed to handle lost packets with features like client side prediction.

The big deal about DirectPlay is the information contained inside the data packets. It'd be like me receive a letter in some language I don't know. However, unlike Japanese, DirectPlay doesn't have any books on how to read the data packets. Sure, Mac porters can try and reverse engineer the data packets (as was done with Aliens Vs. Predator), but it's usually a waste of time as new versions of DirectPlay would break all that work (as what happened to AvP's PC/Mac networking).

RtCW 1.41 beta IS network compatible between Macs and PCs on LANs or otherwise. LANs use the exact same protocols as used on the Internet but the way games are found is different.

WinTroll, there could be any number of issues wrong with your setup. Are you absolutely sure your computer is set up so that you can see the other computers on the LAN? If not, then of course you won't be able to connect. You say it's setup properly so I can only assume it is.

Others have offered info on RtCW so I won't go into detail on that but all I did was install the RtCW 1.41 beta update and everything works fine. I haven't had to mess with any hacks.

Brad Oliver · Sep 22, 2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by WinTroll:
They claim that the network protocol is different. Different? TCPIP is TCPIP. And why would make it not work with the PC version.

Those games (and many others) use DirectPlay for networking under Windows. That's a Microsoft-supplied high-level networking protocol. It is independent from TCP/IP (it can sit on that, IPX and modem lines). The trouble is that this high-level packet protocol is unknown, and Microsoft does not supply a Mac version.

It is at this point that the Mac publisher is screwed: they can either not port the game to the Mac and get flamed for it, or port it and get flamed for not having cross-platform network interoperability.

exca1ibur · Sep 22, 2003, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
It is at this point that the Mac publisher is screwed: they can either not port the game to the Mac and get flamed for it, or port it and get flamed for not having cross-platform network interoperability.

Damned if you do.... damned if you don't huh? Hopefully you don't get into a 'whats the point mood'. I am happy that we at least get SOMETHING. Gaming may not be the greatest on the Mac, but it is better than it was just a few years ago.

Gul Banana · Sep 22, 2003, 04:12 AM

Sorry, WinTroll - my comments were unjustified.
I agree, too, that a lot of Mac game ports are done very badly. Sometimes, it's not at all the fault of the porters, but there's nothing they can do about it.. I go to the occasional LAN party, but if I was as into gaming as you seem to be, I'd build a cheap PC for gaming. If all you use a machine for is games, it can be very cheap indeed, and work well - I use the Macintosh platform for many reasons, but not for playing games (much).
To Brad: That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the hard work done by people like you, and I do buy Mac games, but with the computer world as it is hardcore gamers really are justified in preferring the Windows PC platform.

Brad Oliver · Sep 22, 2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
To Brad: That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the hard work done by people like you, and I do buy Mac games, but with the computer world as it is hardcore gamers really are justified in preferring the Windows PC platform.

I agree. If you buy a Mac just to play games, then you've probably made a mistake. However, if you use a Mac for other things and would also like to play games on it, then you're in good shape. I also expect that with the increased performance in the G5 and Panther, and some companies' focus on getting more Mac parity (witness Aspyr's recent strides in co-development with the PC) that we'll see less and less platform disparity going forward.

WinTroll · Sep 22, 2003, 10:56 PM

I will definitely go check out that website and post "on the beach" to get some help. I also did not know about the beta 1.4.1 patch to RTCW. That may have accounted for it right there.

I also fully understand networking protocols and gaming. There is more to it than TCPIP, but I was limiting my explanation for brevity.

I work on a team of 10 who are responsible for my Fortune 500 companies WAN. This includes nearly 600+ routers and 10+ PIX firewalls and about 200 catalyst switches. I dare say that I understand networking.

And I agree that at least the Mac now has some good games and even some very recent and popular ones (even if they cannot play necessarily with their PC brethren). It certainly is better than nothing, AND it sure beats where Mac gaming was just a few short years ago.

Aspyr, MacSoft and others have a tough time porting games and meeting expectations. However, they also have it incredibly easy in that they are porting the games to SPECIFIC and controlable hardware. On the PC side, any game (if it wants to sell decently) must work with virtually ANY hardware config out there. And that can be a daunting task. Apple strictly controls its hardware and that makes it much, much easier for game developers and game porters. You would think they could devote some of that extra time to emulating the necessary gaming protocols.

To be honest, when I switched, gaming was not even a consideration. But it is tough to get rid of that itch coming from the PC side. And I was pleasantly surprised to see many good games on the shelf at the Apple Store and CompU$A.

I eagerly await Panther too. I have played with the beta (wwdc version) and it is wonderful. About time that the Finder becomes like File Explorer in XP (making life easier).

Many of my coworkers have switched and some have even gotten permission to buy Apple PowerBooks as their official company laptop. Cisco folks seem to like UNIX. :-)

As a switcher, I have some advice for Apple and everyone else. You will not defeat Microsoft in your lifetime. It is a reality that you must come to terms with. But that does not mean defeat either. The more that Apple makes its products interoperable with Microsoft, the more chances that they will be able to invade corporate America. If I can logon to Active Directory, map shares, print to printers, and have MS Office.......the better. Because now employees can choose (if allowed by their company policy) an Apple. And not have to worry about document and OS incompatibility.

And mark my words. If Microsoft Office for OSX ever dies. So does any chance for Apple to get inroads into Corporate America. Companies really don't care about the OS, per se. It is the applications that run on the OS that matter. MS Office rules Corporate America and with good reason. As long as Apple and Microsoft maintain at least that "loving relationship" a PowerBook, iMAC or G5 will always be a viable purchase in Corporate America.

Exciting times ahead for Apple and OSX. And remember this.........OS9 MUST DIE!!!!! Die, Die, Die. Once OSX was released for Apples, nearly all my diehard WinTel friends stood up and started taking notice of Apple.

I have not regretted the switch, just upset by the gaming situation.

Cincojoe · Sep 23, 2003, 09:40 AM

If you want to play games, buy a PC.

If you want to look cool and have a stable OS, buy a mac.

It's really that plain and simple.

a2daj · Sep 24, 2003, 08:54 AM

Since my Mac can play games just fine so I don't need a PC. It's that plain and simple.

WinTroll, I find this thread ironic. If you fully understand networking protocols and gaming, why did you even start this thread? By claiming you fully understand those things then you would know the situation with Mac and PC network compatibility. Even just limiting your discussion to TCP/IP and claiming everything should be compatible since "All PC network games are TCP/IP" shows that you don't have a full understanding of network game protocols. You wouldn't make that claim if you did even for brevity.

Cincojoe · Sep 24, 2003, 09:38 AM

your mac can play a "limited" number of games just fine...

CharlesS · Sep 24, 2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Cincojoe:
If you want to play games, buy a PC.

Why? An XBox or PlayStation is a lot less money...

Cincojoe · Sep 24, 2003, 01:11 PM

good point, and I have both....

Johnny_B · Sep 24, 2003, 01:57 PM

I play on Mac. I am sick of that excuse 'If you want games, buy a PC'. Not everone wants to support Microsoft with more money and make their monopol even bigger.

Mac is for gaming. Consoles can't come close to mac or pc gaming.

The only console I have is a Nintendo 8-bit, which rules btw (still play SMB 3 on it). I even bought a new controller, because the old one was really 'tired'.

Cincojoe · Sep 24, 2003, 02:12 PM

Mac is for gaming?

go walk down the gaming software isle at CompUSA and see how many games you can play.

I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but it is what it is.

juanpacolopez · Sep 24, 2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Why? An XBox or PlayStation is a lot less money...

Exactly...

My total money to microsoft actually increased when I got my Mac, because I started buying exponentially more xbox/gamecube/PS2 games

GENERAL_SMILEY · Sep 25, 2003, 06:35 AM

PCs are cheap (as far as I can see) anyway, you can always buy one for gaming - get a monitor switch and you can use the same display.

Still I don't do much gaming, so what do I know?

videian28 · Sep 25, 2003, 08:42 AM

diablo ii is also cross platform, I think all blizzard games are

Scooterboy · Sep 25, 2003, 07:50 PM

Jedi Knight II is cross platform at least over Internet. I haven't tried anything like a LAN party, but I might try setting one up over an Airport Extreme network. Shouldn't this work with PC's as well as Macs?

Brad Oliver · Sep 25, 2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Scooterboy:
Jedi Knight II is cross platform at least over Internet. I haven't tried anything like a LAN party, but I might try setting one up over an Airport Extreme network. Shouldn't this work with PC's as well as Macs?

Yes, Jedi Knight 2 is completely compatible with the PC version.