[Beewee]

Originally posted by entrox:
Since this is an Apple forum, I assume you all have some kind of Apple equipment, which is not exactly known for its low price. So tell me - how did you manage to buy yourselves a nice machine, while being apparently utterly unable to acquire adequate software. Do I smell some hypocrisy here? Why did you shell out the money for the hardware, but insist on stealing software?

Oh please...I bought my G4 using money in my savings account that was started when I was 4 years old. I hope you aren't implying that because Apple has expensive equipment, and because we may own some of apple's equipment that therefore we can afford expensive software.

And one it isn't stealing software unless I shoplift it from a store. It is copyright infringement there is a difference. The media and software developers just call it "stealing" because 99% of the population is too stupid to know the difference.

And second here are the prices we have to deal with.

Microsoft� Windows XP Professional (Full Version): $299.00

Microsoft� Office XP Professional (Full Version): $499.00

Macromedia Studio MX 2004 with Flash Professional (Full Version): $999.00

Macromedia ColdFusion MX Standard 6.1
$1,299.00

LightWave� [7.5]
Full Version, Mac/Win USB Duo Dongle
$1,595

Most people don't this kind of money to just throw around. And even if they did they then have to pay for the upgrades to make sure that they have the latest and greatest version.
And Windows has so many flaws in it that it isn't even worth giving away let alone paying for it. It all comes down to money some people don't have it so piracy is the result.

[entrox]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Oh please...I bought my G4 using money in my savings account that was started when I was 4 years old. I hope you aren't implying that because Apple has expensive equipment, and because we may own some of apple's equipment that therefore we can afford expensive software.

Yes, I am. I think it's mind-boggling that you save money for so many years to buy a Mac, but are unable to to do the same for software.

And one it isn't stealing software unless I shoplift it from a store. It is copyright infringement there is a difference. The media and software developers just call it "stealing" because 99% of the population is too stupid to know the difference.

Listen buddy: I call it stealing, because I am a software developer and people like you are undermining my efforts to make a living off of it. In other words, you are nothing more than plain thieves.

And even if they did they then have to pay for the upgrades to make sure that they have the latest and greatest version.

What's wrong with an old version? I thought you're a student? Since when does a student always need the latest and greatest? You know, sometimes I need to make a compromise, too. If you want the latest and greatest, then you'll have to pay for it PERIOD.

And Windows has so many flaws in it that it isn't even worth giving away let alone paying for it. It all comes down to money some people don't have it so piracy is the result.

Bla Bla Bla. I'm so tired of this stupid argument about software not being worth its price. If you think it's not worth the price, then don't buy it you dimwit. That's NO excuse for you to steal it.

Every profession has its tools: carpenters need all kind of saws and hammers, architects need materials for their models, artists need paint and canvases, I need editors and compilers, you need ColdFusion and LightWave. Guess what, all these things cost money and are /essential/ for the respective profession. You don't see many carpenters steal their tools, because they're too expensive, do you? If someone can't afford to buy a SuperSaw3000 he'll have to put up with a plain saw. It's simple as that. There ARE free alternatives and vendors often provide learning versions or give huge discounts to students. You just try to justify your theft by claiming software is unlike other products and you don't "own" it. Tough luck. I suggest finding a new profession then.

[scoxx]

Originally posted by entrox:
Listen buddy: I call it stealing, because I am a software developer and people like you are undermining my efforts to make a living off of it. In other words, you are nothing more than plain thieves.

Actually, they're terrorists.

ter�ror�ist
n.
One that engages in copyright infringement



Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun back in 1985, in Dowling v. the United States:

It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: "Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner," that is, anyone who trespasses into his exclusive domain by using or authorizing the use of the copyrighted work in one of the five ways set forth in the statute, "is an infringer of the copyright."

[sanity assassin]

Entrox, some of your arguments are flawed. Not all of us who studied 3D animation, design, or whatever were students, we had day jobs to help keep ourselves above water. in my day, there weren;t even any courses for animation in my area, or country, no company offered student versions anyway back then. My only option was to go work, save up, and use pirated software which cost thousands in total, then buy it later when I could afford it, or use it when i found work.
Software companies know about this dilemma which is why they now offer great student discounts (if you're a student), or versions which are practically the full thing, such as Softimage, and Maya. Maybe other companies should take note.

[Mohammed Al-Sabah]

lets see... ppl can argue about this being right or wronge for a whole year non stop.. so why bother ? and comon i dont think ONE person on this board havent goten software for free once in his life !! so in the end we are all pirates live with it

[Ken Masters]

what if your a poor mac user, and can't afford any software???

Then i think pirating software is justified, because your not gonna buy it anyway.


Just my thoughts. Or you just bought a software and an update has been released and you can't afford to upgrade. They don't supply you with an upgrade option price, so you just pirate it.

I think that is even more justified. OS X???

[cpt kangarooski]

entrox--

Listen buddy: I call it stealing, because I am a software developer and people like you are undermining my efforts to make a living off of it. In other words, you are nothing more than plain thieves.

So does that mean that if I were a competing software developer, and created a program that did what yours did, but mine was better and I sold it at a fraction of the price, therefore undermining your ability to make a living off of your software, I would also be a 'plain thief'?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by entrox:
Yes, I am. I think it's mind-boggling that you save money for so many years to buy a Mac, but are unable to to do the same for software.

Thats because my computer is covered for 3 years by an Apple Care plan that says: If you computer isn't working or becomes a piece of sh*t we at apple will fix the problem for you at no extra cost for as long as this warranty is valid. Does software come with the same type of plan, if I buy a sh*t product are you developers going to fix the software and make a better version? Sure you will, the only difference is that I will have to shell out my money AGAIN to buy the fixed version, or as you guys like to call it in the trade the: "Upgrade" The upgrade is what the original product should have been like.

Listen buddy: I call it stealing, because I am a software developer and people like you are undermining my efforts to make a living off of it. In other words, you are nothing more than plain thieves.

If you think it is stealing then you have just joined that 99% of the population. When I pirate I am breaking the licensing agreement that says in it somewhere that I bought this software legitimately and agree to all the other crap in the contract. I didn't go to an Apple Store and get a piece of software with my five finger discount.

What's wrong with an old version? I thought you're a student? Since when does a student always need the latest and greatest? You know, sometimes I need to make a compromise, too. If you want the latest and greatest, then you'll have to pay for it PERIOD.

I HAVE TO pay for it period? You must be unaware of the many options I have at my disposal. Paying for overpriced software is not high on my "to-do list."

Bla Bla Bla. I'm so tired of this stupid argument about software not being worth its price. If you think it's not worth the price, then don't buy it you dimwit. That's NO excuse for you to steal it.

I am so tired of the developers and software companies blaming pirates for EVERYTHING. Our company is failing: Blame piracy. Our sales are down: Blame piracy. The software industy is weak: Blame piracy. Take resposibility for yourselves. You had bad management, you missed deadlines, your product is sh*t; but you won't. Its too easy to just blame all these problems on 19 year old college students.

The Modern Day Software Developer: boohoo

Every profession has its tools: carpenters need all kind of saws and hammers, architects need materials for their models, artists need paint and canvases, I need editors and compilers, you need ColdFusion and LightWave. Guess what, all these things cost money and are /essential/ for the respective profession. You don't see many carpenters steal their tools, because they're too expensive, do you? If someone can't afford to buy a SuperSaw3000 he'll have to put up with a plain saw. It's simple as that. There ARE free alternatives and vendors often provide learning versions or give huge discounts to students. You just try to justify your theft by claiming software is unlike other products and you don't "own" it. Tough luck. I suggest finding a new profession then.

Yes but all of these items are material things.
I can't touch a supersaw3000 and make 50 copies for my friends. For the software to get on the net in the first place someone had to buy it. And now you're telling that someone who paid money for that software that he/she doesn't own it?! Thats bullsh*t, and I am so sick and tired of seeing developers whine and bitch and moan about piracy and how it "undermines their ability to make a living." Let me ask you something and I want a straight "YES" or "NO" have you ever had to go without pay due to software piracy? Has your boss ever come to you and said "Whats-your-name, I hate to tell you this but you're gonna have to go with out pay this month...its those damn internet pirates."

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by entrox:
Listen buddy: I call it stealing, because I am a software developer and people like you are undermining my efforts to make a living off of it. In other words, you are nothing more than plain thieves.

SNIP

Bla Bla Bla. I'm so tired of this stupid argument about software not being worth its price. If you think it's not worth the price, then don't buy it you dimwit. That's NO excuse for you to steal it.

Every profession has its tools: carpenters need all kind of saws and hammers, architects need materials for their models, artists need paint and canvases, I need editors and compilers, you need ColdFusion and LightWave. Guess what, all these things cost money and are /essential/ for the respective profession. You don't see many carpenters steal their tools, because they're too expensive, do you? If someone can't afford to buy a SuperSaw3000 he'll have to put up with a plain saw. It's simple as that. There ARE free alternatives and vendors often provide learning versions or give huge discounts to students. You just try to justify your theft by claiming software is unlike other products and you don't "own" it. Tough luck. I suggest finding a new profession then.

If people are stealing your software, it usually means you're charging too much. Hell, even the RIAA has figured this out and is dropping the price of CDs. If you make the best software for a job, and it costs too much, then this is what happens. It's greed and I have little sympathy for you.

And, yes, people do steal expensive tools and they sell them on the black market for a fraction of what they would originally sell for. There wouldn't be a market if there weren't a problem. Both sides are at fault.

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
entrox--


So does that mean that if I were a competing software developer, and created a program that did what yours did, but mine was better and I sold it at a fraction of the price, therefore undermining your ability to make a living off of your software, I would also be a 'plain thief'?

No, you'd be a "rat bastard".

[UR-20]

Originally posted by entrox:
You just try to justify your theft by claiming software is unlike other products and you don't "own" it. Tough luck. I suggest finding a new profession then.

And I suppose when you were learning to be a programmer, you bought every single piece of neccesary software to get you where you needed to go.

[entrox]

If you make the best software for a job, and it costs too much, then this is what happens. It's greed and I have little sympathy for you.

This is getting ridiculous. If I'm making the best software for a particular segment and charge more for my product than the average college kiddo can afford, I'm considered greedy? I'm sorry, but this logic escapes my greedy capitalistic brain.

And I suppose when you were learning to be a programmer, you bought every single piece of neccesary software to get you where you needed to go.

No. Either I was supplied by the company I was working for, or I used the free alternatives. Come to think of it - I still use Emacs as my primary editor. And I specifically said in my previous post, that there are student versions/discounts for most of the software of this kind. If the vendor doesn't provide these, he's probably shooting himself in the foot. Still, this is no justification for piracy - contact the vendor and/or just use some alternative.

Does software come with the same type of plan, if I buy a sh*t product are you developers going to fix the software and make a better version? Sure you will, the only difference is that I will have to shell out my money AGAIN to buy the fixed version, or as you guys like to call it in the trade the: "Upgrade" The upgrade is what the original product should have been like.

Don't buy it then. Who forces you anyway?


In retrospect, typing this has been a waste of time. Apparently, you feel you're entitled to the software you think you "need" (better: want to have) and the vendors who charge money for it are greedy bastards. But it's easy ranting about greedy developers if you're not in the same line of business. As long as it doesn't hurt /you/, it's fine ripping other people off, isn't it?

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by entrox:
Still, this is no justification for piracy - contact the vendor and/or just use some alternative.

Still, there is no reason for people not to pirate.
The software industy as well as the music industry have tried going against piracy. Kind of like trying to row a boat up stream.. They release new security, encryptions, etc. all of which fall before a determined few who are adamant in their belief not to pay for something that in their eyes is over priced.
You can come out with all the anti-piracy technology, you want, and
you'll have hackers and programmers reverse engineering it, or your own people leaking the classified info to others. Once they find out how it works they can find out how to beat it.

You have to go with it. One, accept that piracy is part
of the software/music/movie industy, and as yourself "Why are they pirating rather than buying?" And it's not because they're cheap s.o.b's who just want it because they can have it without paying for it.

The Apple music store is a great way in my mind to curtail piracy.
People can pick and choose the songs or albums they want to buy. They don't feel like they're being ripped off because they can pick their favs and avoid all the ones they hate, rather than being forced to buy the entire CD even though there is only 4 songs out of 15 that they like. And at 99 cents a song!! It's a price that everyone can agree is fair.

Now, when you've got software that is so expensive, you could buy yourself an entire computer system for the same price?! Do you really have to ask why people pirate.

Originally posted by entrox:
In retrospect, typing this has been a waste of time. Apparently, you feel you're entitled to the software you think you "need" (better: want to have) and the vendors who charge money for it are greedy bastards. But it's easy ranting about greedy developers if you're not in the same line of business. As long as it doesn't hurt /you/, it's fine ripping other people off, isn't it?

That's the problem with a lot of people today. They think because they come up with a lame excuse why they "need" something, it somehow justifies them to take it. They don't even think about the welfare of those making the software. If they did, they'd find a way to pay for it. Very selfish.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by entrox:
Don't buy it then. Who forces you anyway?

In retrospect, typing this has been a waste of time. Apparently, you feel you're entitled to the software you think you "need" (better: want to have) and the vendors who charge money for it are greedy bastards. But it's easy ranting about greedy developers if you're not in the same line of business. As long as it doesn't hurt /you/, it's fine ripping other people off, isn't it?

booohooohooo... Give me a break. There is such a thing as overcharging for your product. When a piece of software costs as much as a computer it isn't worth its price. It just that developers -whos software has become an industry standard- know this and do it to make more money. THAT is being a greedy bastard. And the whole f**king argument of "don't buy it then" "don't buy it" just sounds like the biggest whiny excuse ever. How about YOU make a product quality product that is reasonably priced! Also some times necessity demands that I get a certain program, like for my 3D animation class. I HAD to use a specific program for my assignment, the program was a piece of sh*t that I only needed for ONE thing. There was no way I was going to pay some amature programmer/developer for shoudy work.

So quit bitching to me about how hard it is being a developer and make some software that is actually worth buying and/or priced fair, other wise I'll just take your advice and not buy it...someone will "share" it with me.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by hayesk:


That's the problem with a lot of people today. They think because they come up with a lame excuse why they "need" something, it somehow justifies them to take it. They don't even think about the welfare of those making the software. If they did, they'd find a way to pay for it. Very selfish.

No one company, business or individual has ever been laid off/been shut down due to piracy. And if you knew anything you would see that to do a certain task there may be a certain or specifc tool needed. I am not justifing my actions based on "need" you are. You totally misunderstood my argument in the beginning and have carried that ignorance all the way to this point. My argument was originally to this post:

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
That is an arguement that goes in circles.

If you need to use the software, buy it.

If your not ever gonna buy it, then you don't need it.

If you need the software, then buy it.

"Stealing" is "stealing"

-Owl

Just because I don't buy something doesn't lessen that fact that I may need it. If I want to make an omelet I need eggs. If I build a house I need a hammer. If I want to go out for a drive I need a car. Yet you claim that that argument is based on people crying "I need this software therefore I am entitled to it."
You can have your morals and values all you want but at least learn how f*cking argue or you can just sit there and wag your finger at us all you want, but you just sound like an ass.

Originally posted by Beewee:
Oh please...I bought my G4 using money in my savings account that was started when I was 4 years old. I hope you aren't implying that because Apple has expensive equipment, and because we may own some of apple's equipment that therefore we can afford expensive software.

No, they are implying since you can save up for expensive equipment, you can save up for more software. Are you saying that you will never make any more money?

Have you ever bought a can of coke? Or a pizza? How about gone to the movies? If so, then you can afford other things too. You made the choice to buy pizza, coke, or movie tickets, or any other leisure items. You could have passed on those things and saved your money for software but you chose not to. How again does that make it ok to copy it?

And one it isn't stealing software unless I shoplift it from a store. It is copyright infringement there is a difference. The media and software developers just call it "stealing" because 99% of the population is too stupid to know the difference.

Lots of things are wrong even though they aren't technically "hurting" someone (by your definition, not mine):
- Is it ok if I break into your house and sleep in your bed while you're gone?
- Is it ok if I steal something and leave only enough money to pay for the cost of producing and shipping it? As long as I don't take the last item, they aren't out any money, are they?
- Is it ok to "hire" you to work for me and then not pay you? After all, I didn't take any money from you. I just didn't give you any. Isn't that what a software developer does - work for you?

The difference between you making a copy or stealing a box from the store is this. If you take a store copy, you are taking a piece of the livelihoods of the store owners, distributors and software producers. When you make a copy you are taking a piece of the livelihoods of the software producers. That's the only difference. Either way you are taking income from people.

And second here are the prices we have to deal with.

[prices snipped]

Most people don't this kind of money to just throw around. And even if they did they then have to pay for the upgrades to make sure that they have the latest and greatest version.

So what? You don't need to have upgrades. Use what you have. Your existing software will not stop working. It doesn't matter anyway. Those companies paid their employees to make that software - why shouldn't they get to decide the price? Why do you get to decide it should be free? What is the income threshhold of those who should pay and those who can copy it? Why do you get to decide that?

And Windows has so many flaws in it that it isn't even worth giving away let alone paying for it.

Then don't use it.

It all comes down to money some people don't have it so piracy is the result.

Very few people have absolutely no disposible income. People who can buy computers can buy software to go with it. They are either to impatient to save up more money or choose to spend it on other things. You have every right to choose how you spend your money. But you don't have the right to spend it on other things and pretend that you don't have any money for software, because nobody is going to believe that BS.

And to those who think "I need really expensive 3D software to learn it to get a job." No, you don't. Use a cheaper alternative if they don't have a free or student version. Creative arts employers are looking for your talent, not for what tool you use. Not that it matters anyway. What if you wanted to learn a craft that required hardware? Why should it be any different with software that is only easier to appropriate? If you really want to spend your money on other things or have no money at all, you should accept the fact that you can't do everything in life you want to.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by Beewee:
No one company, business or individual has ever been laid off/been shut down due to piracy. *snip*

Perhaps there is no direct evidence of this. Like i said in my previous post, think of a hypothetical situation where there was absolutely NO piracy, in that case you'd either buy the software, or you wouldn't. In border line cases, quite a few people would end up buying the software which would obviously boost a companies sales, which in turn would boost the revenue. So don't make that comment so confidently.

Also you keep whining about software that is "over priced". I think the reason why Adobe's Creative Suit, for example, costs ~$1200 is because of its potential productive capacity AND the effort put in by its developers. Someone that is serious about using the software could easily earn enough money to pay back any loans made in order to purchase the product, by using the product itself. Of course there are exceptions to this like maybe MS Word, which can easily be replaced with TextEdit in some cases.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
No, they are implying since you can save up for expensive equipment, you can save up for more software. Are you saying that you will never make any more money?

You're absolutely right man.. I think I'll go ask my boss for a raise.

Have you ever bought a can of coke? Or a pizza? How about gone to the movies? If so, then you can afford other things too. You made the choice to buy pizza, coke, or movie tickets, or any other leisure items. You could have passed on those things and saved your money for software but you chose not to. How again does that make it ok to copy it

Movie ticket: $6.50
Can of Coke: $.055
Pizza: $8.99
Not having to pay $1500 for software: Priceless

Lots of things are wrong even though they aren't technically "hurting" someone (by your definition, not mine):
- Is it ok if I break into your house and sleep in your bed while you're gone?

- Is it ok to "hire" you to work for me and then not pay you? After all, I didn't take any money from you. I just didn't give you any. Isn't that what a software developer does - work for you?

That's some sweet Fred Durst logic you got going for ya.
Hey I got hired, I get paid diddley and you don't see me whining and crying that I don't cut a check. Unless you don't consider what I do to be "work."

So what? You don't need to have upgrades. Use what you have. Your existing software will not stop working.

You're right I don't need to have upgrades.. I can just keep my old version of Mac OS 9 and have it crash on me every 10 mins, and my old version of Final cut pro where it freezes up everytime the computer goes to sleep. I'd like to see you watch any movie on the net with quicktime 3 and tell me how far you get.

Very few people have absolutely no disposible income. People who can buy computers can buy software to go with it. They are either to impatient to save up more money or choose to spend it on other things. You have every right to choose how you spend your money. But you don't have the right to spend it on other things and pretend that you don't have any money for software, because nobody is going to believe that BS.

Unfortunately for me, I'm not immortal. I, like many other humans on this earth, DIE! So if you think I'm going to waste what precious life I have left, saving and putting away money so I can buy a $1500 piece of software in 10 months to 3 years, you're f**king nuts.

And to those who think "I need really expensive 3D software to learn it to get a job." No, you don't. Use a cheaper alternative if they don't have a free or student version. Creative arts employers are looking for your talent, not for what tool you use.

HAHAHAHAHAH , the funniest thing is you actually believe that.
When I apply for a job at a graphics art company, I don't doubt for a second that they'll take a look at my portfolio. But who do you think they're gonna hire, me the guy didn't get familiar with the best 3D software that is industry standard, but am extremely fluent in Adobe After Effects, Flash 2, and 3D flash animator 3; while somebody else comes in knowing Maya, Lightwave, and Avid as if they were his children. Who do you think they're gonna hire? Who would you hire?
If you know the how to use the best software, they'll snatch you up in a heart beat.

Not that it matters anyway. What if you wanted to learn a craft that required hardware? Why should it be any different with software that is only easier to appropriate? If you really want to spend your money on other things or have no money at all, you should accept the fact that you can't do everything in life you want to.

There you go again with you classic line "Life is tough, give up"
This world is a cold and unforgiving hell of a place, especially when it comes to the career world. Video game designer/programmer cartoonist, charcter animator, concept artist; and these are just a few jobs that are open in the art field. Most of these jobs require knowledge of computers, and all of these jobs, are in a career field that is unbelievably competetive. The work is fufilling, fun, and challenging which is why people get into this kind of career. So if I have to break some rules to get a leg up on the competition, I'm all for it. And even if I fail at becoming what I want later in life, I'd rather go out saying "I took every opportunity that was presented to me." "I tried my hardest, even though it still wasn't enough, at least I tried my hardest."
Instead of: "I could learn a lot from that program if I pirate it..but what of my morals?"
Right and wrong, good and evil, there is no set norm for them.. They're all subject to ones own opinion.. So if I don't think that piracy is wrong, then (to me) it's not wrong.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by UR-20:
*snip*

Right and wrong, good and evil, there is no set norm for them.. They're all subject to ones own opinion.. So if I don't think that piracy is wrong, then (to me) it's not wrong.

That's the most ridiculous thing i've EVER heard. By that logic.. just because my neighbour is noisy, i can go kill him because i think it is right in my case?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
That's the most ridiculous thing i've EVER heard. By that logic.. just because my neighbour is noisy, i can go kill him because i think it is right in my case?

Actually yes, if one approaches every thing with pure objective reason it is impossible to find the wrong in the act itself. It is others opinions and feelings that make the act "wrong."

[Beewee]

Originally posted by hayesk:
No, they are implying since you can save up for expensive equipment, you can save up for more software. Are you saying that you will never make any more money?

I never said "they" I said "you." Re-read my posts or should I spell it out for you like I have tried to do the past 2 times. I doubt you actually read any of my posts.

Have you ever bought a can of coke? Or a pizza? How about gone to the movies? If so, then you can afford other things too. You made the choice to buy pizza, coke, or movie tickets, or any other leisure items. You could have passed on those things and saved your money for software but you chose not to. How again does that make it ok to copy it?

Again this is not part of the original argument. And don't try to give me advice on my life.

Lots of things are wrong even though they aren't technically "hurting" someone (by your definition, not mine):
- Is it ok if I break into your house and sleep in your bed while you're gone?
- Is it ok if I steal something and leave only enough money to pay for the cost of producing and shipping it? As long as I don't take the last item, they aren't out any money, are they?
- Is it ok to "hire" you to work for me and then not pay you? After all, I didn't take any money from you. I just didn't give you any. Isn't that what a software developer does - work for you?

All of these examples are based on a persons perceptions. You probably don't see anything wrong with breaking into someones house to sleep in there bed if you do it.

The boss who hires me to do work probably thinks its perfectly fine not to pay me if he doesn't.

When you make a copy you are taking a piece of the livelihoods of the software producers. That's the only difference. Either way you are taking income from people.

How? and Prove it.

So what? You don't need to have upgrades. Use what you have. Your existing software will not stop working. It doesn't matter anyway. Those companies paid their employees to make that software - why shouldn't they get to decide the price? Why do you get to decide it should be free? What is the income threshhold of those who should pay and those who can copy it? Why do you get to decide that?

Never said it should be free, read my posts. And are you saying that because they make it they should be able to put on ANY price tag. What about the oil industry? They own the wells, they bump the oil they own it. Why do people bitch and moan when they have to pay $1.80 for a gallon of gas? Its their oil even if it gets to $3.00 a gallon we should except it.

Then don't use it.

Weak ass excuse. Whiny whiny whiny, you'd make a good software developer. I don't use XP it was an example of shoudy software that people have to buy. Unless they want to run some Linux, Unix OS on their comp and most people aren't that knowledgable.

Very few people have absolutely no disposible income. People who can buy computers can buy software to go with it. They are either to impatient to save up more money or choose to spend it on other things. You have every right to choose how you spend your money. But you don't have the right to spend it on other things and pretend that you don't have any money for software, because nobody is going to believe that BS.

And who is "nobody"? Do you all-of-a-sudden speak for the world?
I'm a college kid ALL my money goes for tuition, books, gas to get to school, and food. I don't have the money to pay for most of the high priced software out there. So don't try and talk down to me; you have no idea who I am or what my life is like. Claiming that I just throw my money away on luxuries? How very arrogant of you...but not surprising.

And to those who think "I need really expensive 3D software to learn it to get a job." No, you don't. Use a cheaper alternative if they don't have a free or student version. Creative arts employers are looking for your talent, not for what tool you use. Not that it matters anyway. What if you wanted to learn a craft that required hardware? Why should it be any different with software that is only easier to appropriate? If you really want to spend your money on other things or have no money at all, you should accept the fact that you can't do everything in life you want to.

Are you IN the creative arts field? Do you know anything about the competitiveness of it? They care about you talent but don't be mislead. Industry standard tools are far more accepted and expected of potential employees than limited free versions or cheap alternatives. 2 Students with the same talent but one has mastered imovie and the other has mastered Final Cut Pro. Who do you think the employer will hire? Or I have an advertising layout to do I'm sure it will be just as good if I use Appleworks instead of Photoshop or Illustrator, and even if its not my employer will be happy that at least I didn't pirate software. Hehe, "Wake up sweet-heart its time for school."

And your last line is poetry...

"If you really want to spend your money on other things or have no money at all, you should accept the fact that you can't do everything in life you want to."

Accept the fact you can't do everthing in life...GIVE UP. You are soooo depressing. How do you expect to get anywhere in life with that kind of an attitude. And why should I accept it? How does that benefit me and the rest of society?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
That's the most ridiculous thing i've EVER heard. By that logic.. just because my neighbour is noisy, i can go kill him because i think it is right in my case?

Big difference between killing your neighbor and being squeezed by overpriced software.

I PAY for the software I use, but I also sympathize with those who can't afford the tools they need to get ahead. I used to pirate software all the time, being poor and in college does that to a person. Now that I'm not poor, I pay my dues (though I still won't buy a >$300 program without giving it a good tryout first). I expect that most people ripping off software are the same way, and they'll start being more gracious when they can. Until then, developers and SW companies will just have to deal `cause it's not going to stop.

Originally posted by UR-20:

Movie ticket: $6.50
Can of Coke: $.055
Pizza: $8.99
Not having to pay $1500 for software: Priceless

Taking a piece of income from a hard working software developer: selfish.

That's some sweet Fred Durst logic you got going for ya.
Hey I got hired, I get paid diddley and you don't see me whining and crying that I don't cut a check. Unless you don't consider what I do to be "work."

So basically, you don't have an answer for that do you? Do you think it's ok if your boss doesn't pay you after you have worked for him? Why not? Answer the question instead dodging it.

You're right I don't need to have upgrades.. I can just keep my old version of Mac OS 9 and have it crash on me every 10 mins, and my old version of Final cut pro where it freezes up everytime the computer goes to sleep. I'd like to see you watch any movie on the net with quicktime 3 and tell me how far you get.

Hmmm... given QT is free, I don't know what you are talking about. Fix your Mac if it is crashing every 10 minutes, and use other editing software if it is so buggy.

Unfortunately for me, I'm not immortal. I, like many other humans on this earth, DIE! So if you think I'm going to waste what precious life I have left, saving and putting away money so I can buy a $1500 piece of software in 10 months to 3 years, you're f**king nuts.

Use something cheaper, find a better paying job, or save more money.

HAHAHAHAHAH , the funniest thing is you actually believe that.
When I apply for a job at a graphics art company, I don't doubt for a second that they'll take a look at my portfolio. But who do you think they're gonna hire, me the guy didn't get familiar with the best 3D software that is industry standard, but am extremely fluent in Adobe After Effects, Flash 2, and 3D flash animator 3; while somebody else comes in knowing Maya, Lightwave, and Avid as if they were his children. Who do you think they're gonna hire? Who would you hire?
If you know the how to use the best software, they'll snatch you up in a heart beat.

Given that I know people in the industry, and was hired myself based on my talent, not the tools I use, it is very believable. I would definitely hire the more talented applicant. A tool can be learned in a very short time compared to developing talent. Most employers know this. Apparently you don't.

There you go again with you classic line "Life is tough, give up"
This world is a cold and unforgiving hell of a place, especially when it comes to the career world.

I never said give up. I said work harder. Taking the software illegally is giving up. I've said this to you before. You took the easy way out at the expense of the developer. That is giving up. I don't see how working harder to pay the developer for his hard work is giving up - which you seem to cling to.

Video game designer/programmer cartoonist, charcter animator, concept artist; and these are just a few jobs that are open in the art field. Most of these jobs require knowledge of computers, and all of these jobs, are in a career field that is unbelievably competetive.

These are all fields that will look at your talent first.

The work is fufilling, fun, and challenging which is why people get into this kind of career. So if I have to break some rules to get a leg up on the competition, I'm all for it. And even if I fail at becoming what I want later in life, I'd rather go out saying "I took every opportunity that was presented to me."

Including ripping off the very people who made the tools to help you get your "leg up". Wow, good for you.

"I tried my hardest, even though it still wasn't enough, at least I tried my hardest."
Instead of: "I could learn a lot from that program if I pirate it..but what of my morals?"
Right and wrong, good and evil, there is no set norm for them.. They're all subject to ones own opinion.. So if I don't think that piracy is wrong, then (to me) it's not wrong.

Fine - you don't think benefiting yourself at the expense of others is wrong. Yet, you got all indignant on me when you thought I was judging you. What do you expect me to say? "Oh good for him! He thinks nothing of the people who make the tools that advance his career and doesn't believe he needs to compensate them. He believes the developers work their butts off to serve him for free. How noble!" Do you actually believe you are noble by "doing whatever you can" to succeed in your career? Are there no limits to you ambition?

When people accuse kids of being selfish and lazy these days, this is why. Rather than working hard to get what you need to succeed in life, you just take what isn't yours. That is lazy. That is giving up. That is selfish.

But obviously, you continue to rationalize this selfishness to yourself. So unless you can address your total disregard for the people that make the tools to advance your own career, you really have no argument to give.

Originally posted by Beewee:
I never said "they" I said "you." Re-read my posts or should I spell it out for you like I have tried to do the past 2 times. I doubt you actually read any of my posts.

Irrelevant.

Again this is not part of the original argument. And don't try to give me advice on my life.

Why not? You claimed you only had enough money for hardware. I presented an alternative that, for some reason, you consider "advice on your life."

All of these examples are based on a persons perceptions. You probably don't see anything wrong with breaking into someones house to sleep in there bed if you do it.

You missed the point. Of course that's not acceptable. The point is monetary loss is not the only way to victimize someone.

The boss who hires me to do work probably thinks its perfectly fine not to pay me if he doesn't.

I'm not talking about what the boss thinks about it. I'm asking you what you think about it if your boss did not pay you? Why should he pay you? Apply that reasoning to someone taking the work of software developers without paying.

How? and Prove it.

How? Because when developers spend all day working on products, they have to judge what products and features people will pay for. They have to pay their rent and feed their family. When people take their work and don't pay them, they cannot pay their rent and feed their family, yet thousands of people feel their product is worthwhile since they continue to use it.

Never said it should be free, read my posts. And are you saying that because they make it they should be able to put on ANY price tag.

The smart ones will put a fair price tag. However, who are you to judge what is fair. Do you know how many people work on your favourite software? Do you know the costs in producing it? Who is in a better position to judge the price? You or them? I would say they have a better grasp on the costs?

You are the consumer - you can make a simple choice. Does the software provide you enough benefit to justify paying for it. If yes, buy it. If no, don't use it at all. If people don't buy or use it, it will tell the developers they have to price it lower if they can. They did the work, so they get the decision, not you.

What about the oil industry? They own the wells, they bump the oil they own it. Why do people bitch and moan when they have to pay $1.80 for a gallon of gas? Its their oil even if it gets to $3.00 a gallon we should except it.

Yes! If oil gets too expensive, people will buy less, the oil companies will have to cut prices. That's the way the market works.

Weak ass excuse. Whiny whiny whiny, you'd make a good software developer.

So your argument is that software developers aren't trying to make a living, but they are just whining? Nice. Do you have respect for anyone?

I don't use XP it was an example of shoudy software that people have to buy. Unless they want to run some Linux, Unix OS on their comp and most people aren't that knowledgable.

So what? If people don't know how to drive, they take the bus. There are alternatives such as Linux or MacOS for people that don't want to run Windows. It's their choice.

And who is "nobody"? Do you all-of-a-sudden speak for the world?
I'm a college kid ALL my money goes for tuition, books, gas to get to school, and food.

Gas? Lots of students can't afford a car and you have to pay for gas? I don't believe you have absolutely no money for leisure. I don't believe you have no time to work extra hours to get more money. You certainly have time to post here, so why can't you work some more? It's all a matter of choice.

I don't have the money to pay for most of the high priced software out there.

Then use low priced software.

So don't try and talk down to me; you have no idea who I am or what my life is like.

I know you can afford a Mac. I know you have a car.

Claiming that I just throw my money away on luxuries? How very arrogant of you...but not surprising.

I never said you throw your money away on luxuries. I said you either have some disposable income or have the time to earn more money. This has nothing to do with arrogance.

And your last line is poetry...

"If you really want to spend your money on other things or have no money at all, you should accept the fact that you can't do everything in life you want to."

Accept the fact you can't do everthing in life...GIVE UP. You are soooo depressing. How do you expect to get anywhere in life with that kind of an attitude.

Actually I worked two jobs and bought the software I needed. I didn't give up. I'm not telling you to. I'm telling you that you can work harder. Giving up is something you do when you don't want to work. That is the alternative to working harder. It shouldn't be too hard considering the software you mentioned (Photoshop, and FCP) have educational discounts. Photoshop Elements is close enough for you learn on that - it's only $99. All of Apple's stuff have educ. discounts too.

And why should I accept it? How does that benefit me and the rest of society?

Had you worked and paid for the software it would benefit the industry and yourself. You instead chose to paint software developers as "whiny" (when you said I should be a software developer), even though these are the people that work their butts off to make the tools for you to get ahead? What about them? Don't they deserve to be paid? Do you have any respect for them?

[driven]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
That's pretty much it.

If it's worth the effort to pirate... you would buy it.

... or you would buy something else that did a similar job. If you are using the more expensive pirated tool than the tool that you actually WOULD buy isn't being bought. (So, someone is getting hurt.)

[entrox]

Today I have lost another small bit of faith in humanity. Just how old are you anyway? Have you actually ANY idea how difficult it is to whip up something like Maya? These are projects on the order of several hundred man years, not including all the other facets of software development like QA, support and documentation. Furthermore, the market for this kind of software is rather small - just how are they supposed to make a profit, if they're only allowed to charge $0.99 per licence?

And yes, I do acknowledge the fact that you need something to learn on. But you DON'T need the latest and greatest, you DON'T need every single pro feature and you DON'T need the most expensive one. Just now I'm looking at some products: there is the learning version for Maya and a big "ATTENTION STUDENTS!" in the NewTek store for Lightwave. I see training programs for the Macromedia stuff (and don't come bitching that these are too expensive - education is not free) and I'm sure there's a lot more.

You just come across as snotty 14-year olds, who have the nerve to call software developers "whiney", because they complain when you leech off of their only source of income. If you don't like the prices, vote with your wallet /without/ stealing it. But judging by the general quality of your arguments, I don't think you'll grasp this concept anytime soon.

At least there are /some/ reasonable people on this board.

[sanity assassin]

Entrox, do you know how long, and hard I worked on some movies and to see them for download on kazaa? Does it bother me? No, it doesn't, even though I get slice of the royalties from them selling. It's just how things are at the moment. Yes, if I owned a studio, and was generating enough work to afford Maya, but used a pirated copy, I would agree with you; but for those who are just in college, or working in other jobs, and don't have the money to buy these programs, then I say let them use them.

The industry want people who can use XSI, Maya, Shake, etc. so how do some people get up to spec quickly, using iMovie? Nah, maybe to learn some basics, and develop some talent, but there comes a time when you need to move onto higher ground.

Why do you think Softimage, Alias, and now Avid are offering free versions of their packages? Because they know that some people are in certain positions where they can't afford them, plus that they want to learn these specific applications.

I'm sure that the likes of Apple, MS, Alias prefer to go after the large scale pirates, companies that who should know better than to use ripped off software.

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
Entrox, do you know how long, and hard I worked on some movies and to see them for download on kazaa? Does it bother me? No, it doesn't, even though I get slice of the royalties from them selling.

Would it bother you if you no longer had work because your employer wasn't generating enough sales to pay you?

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Would it bother you if you no longer had work because your employer wasn't generating enough sales to pay you?

Nah, he's a multi-billionaire Seriously though, yes it would, to a degree, but I've lost work before for various reasons, so one more doesn't really make a difference.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Taking a piece of income from a hard working software developer: selfish.

That's an opinion.

So basically, you don't have an answer for that do you? Do you think it's ok if your boss doesn't pay you after you have worked for him? Why not? Answer the question instead dodging it.

Do you even read people's posts, or do you just find out if they're for or agaisnt piracy and congratulate or scold them accordingly?
I say "I don't get paid and you don't see me whining and crying about"
so that should tell you that YES I think it's fine not getting paid for the work I do. God, who reads these posts to you?

Hmmm... given QT is free, I don't know what you are talking about. Fix your Mac if it is crashing every 10 minutes, and use other editing software if it is so buggy.

Oh god.. You said "you don't need to upgrade" I said "try using quicktime 3 to view movies and tell me how far you get" it had NOTHING to do with if it was free or not.
Compare Mac OS 9 to OSX and you'd be suprised exactly how much more it crashes. You're willing to settle for sub standard materials, I however am not.

Use something cheaper, find a better paying job, or save more money.

Wow, when did you become my mommy?
Stop telling people how they should run their lives.

Given that I know people in the industry, and was hired myself based on my talent, not the tools I use, it is very believable. I would definitely hire the more talented applicant. A tool can be learned in a very short time compared to developing talent. Most employers know this. Apparently you don't.

What if both applicants are equally talented? But one knows the more up-to-date stuff, and the other is still stuck back in OS 9.1
Who do you hire then.
Yes a tool can be learned, but most businesses would rather have someone with prior knowledge of that tool. You don't have to waste time and money training an individual, and they make the transition into their new job much easier.

I never said give up. I said work harder. Taking the software illegally is giving up. I've said this to you before. You took the easy way out at the expense of the developer. That is giving up. I don't see how working harder to pay the developer for his hard work is giving up - which you seem to cling to.

Once again, me taking the "easy" way out is a matter of opinion.
I don't have all the time in the world to save money, if I was immortal, I would, but I'm not. If I decided not to pirate any software ever, saved up for years, and bought FCP, Fusion, Shake, which would take years, those are years wasted that I could have spent learning the programs.

These are all fields that will look at your talent first.

Including ripping off the very people who made the tools to help you get your "leg up". Wow, good for you.

You're probably the only boss who would ask a future employee
about their pirating history, then not hire them when they pull out an Ipod full of ill gotten music. You judge me as well as countless others, I never thought I'd ever meet someone with "pirate prejudice."

Fine - you don't think benefiting yourself at the expense of others is wrong. Yet, you got all indignant on me when you thought I was judging you. What do you expect me to say? "Oh good for him! He thinks nothing of the people who make the tools that advance his career and doesn't believe he needs to compensate them. He believes the developers work their butts off to serve him for free. How noble!" Do you actually believe you are noble by "doing whatever you can" to succeed in your career? Are there no limits to you ambition?

So, you admit you WERE judging me.
I consider myself righteous for doing what I believe
is right.. What I believe in.. You have beliefs of your own and I respect that. But I won't pretend I'm something I'm not, I won't go about my daily life, all the while that lil voice in my mind saying "That's not the way you want to get software."
Oh, but who cares what I want, I should care more about people I don't even know, who get paid regardless of if I pirate or not.
That's what's funny, if you constantly care about the welfare of strangers, people think you're soo good, and generous, and charitable. But the second you think of yourself, or put your needs/wants above others..automatic selfishness.

When people accuse kids of being selfish and lazy these days, this is why. Rather than working hard to get what you need to succeed in life, you just take what isn't yours. That is lazy. That is giving up. That is selfish.

What's wrong with taking short cuts?
What's wrong with getting ahead of the competition?
You want to spend time saving money for software great!
I'll be using that time to learn the product and increase my knowlege of animation as a whole. I'm a seeker of wisdom, how can I be lazy for my thirst to learn?

But obviously, you continue to rationalize this selfishness to yourself. So unless you can address your total disregard for the people that make the tools to advance your own career, you really have no argument to give.

You tell me how to address it, and I'll address it.
Tell me what you want answered and I'll answer it, if it will make you
happy.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I never said "they" I said "you." Re-read my posts or should I spell it out for you like I have tried to do the past 2 times. I doubt you actually read any of my posts.

Originally posted by hayesk:
Irrelevant.

What is, that you actually don't read the posts? hmm. I guess that makes sense.. it sure does explain a lot.

[Trygve]

<hr><b>And one it isn't stealing software unless I shoplift it from a store. It is copyright infringement there is a difference. The media and software developers just call it "stealing" because 99% of the population is too stupid to know the difference.</b><hr>

You'd think differently if you made your living writing software (as I do) and 100% of your income came from sales of said software.

[scoxx]

Originally posted by Trygve:
You'd think differently if you made your living writing software (as I do) and 100% of your income came from sales of said software.

There's a difference between theft and copyright infringement. That's a fact. What anyone thinks doesn't change that fact.

[Trygve]

Let me ask you something and I want a straight "YES" or "NO" have you ever had to go without pay due to software piracy? Has your boss ever come to you and said "Whats-your-name, I hate to tell you this but you're gonna have to go with out pay this month...its those damn internet pirates."

Nope. My boss just said the company could no longer pay me, so I left.

Piracy is theft. If you can't afford something, you can't have it (or do you have a price point below which you never pirate?).

If you argue that you'd never buy it anyway, whay do you need it?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Irrelevant.

Wrong, this only proves that you haven't read any of my posts or didn't undersand them. You twist peoples' words and dodge arguments instead of confronting them. I have responded to everyone of your arguments yet when something is brought to that you can't answer you hide behind you "ethics and values" systems and shout, "Wrong, selfish, think of the developers." Try arguing with some logic and reason instead of blind emotions and sentiment. You may want to take a logic class to help you out in debating and forming valid arguments.

Why not? You claimed you only had enough money for hardware. I presented an alternative that, for some reason, you consider "advice on your life."

Why not? Because its MY life thats why. You didn't give me an "alternative" you gave me a lecture. You made an asinine assumption about my life that was so general that it almost assured that you would be right. It would be like saying, "Have you ever drank a glass of water before?" or "Do you breathe?" Of course I have gone to a movie or bought soda, just about everyone in the USA has! Also I feel the need to point out that when you contradict yourself you really look stupid.

You missed the point. Of course that's not acceptable. The point is monetary loss is not the only way to victimize someone.

No the "point" was looking at things from a differing perspective.
You have to understand that there are people who don't think that copying a program and sharing it with their friend is "wrong."

I'm not talking about what the boss thinks about it. I'm asking you what you think about it if your boss did not pay you? Why should he pay you? Apply that reasoning to someone taking the work of software developers without paying.

Yes I would feel pretty upset about not getting paid if I deserved it.
But that is only one perspective. The software developer gets pissed when his product is "stolen" but the customer gets pissed when the software is overpriced. Why do we always have to side with the developer? Isn't the customer entitled to quality software at a reasonable price?

How? Because when developers spend all day working on products, they have to judge what products and features people will pay for. They have to pay their rent and feed their family. When people take their work and don't pay them, they cannot pay their rent and feed their family, yet thousands of people feel their product is worthwhile since they continue to use it.

Show me the "starving" developer. Show me his skinny children. They work on salary not commission. They get paid regardless of if the product sells or not, gets pirated or not. The company may suffer if the product does poor in sales but if it does well and there are people pirating it the company isn't hurt. They just didn't have as big of a profit margin...but they still made a profit.

The smart ones will put a fair price tag. However, who are you to judge what is fair. Do you know how many people work on your favourite software? Do you know the costs in producing it? Who is in a better position to judge the price? You or them? I would say they have a better grasp on the costs?

What about the dumb ones? During Sept. 11th gas went up to as high as $7.00 a gallon. Was that fair? I never judged what was fair but that price seems a little high to me. And a $1,500+ program that costs more than a G5 seems a little high to me too. They don't judge prices based solely on production costs and salary. They also factor in the "mark-up" how much can we "get" consumers to pay for this item. How high can we get the price before consumers will out-right say, "That's TOO DAMN MUCH!" They don't care if the consumer complains or grumbles a little the trick is finding that perfect balance when the consumer still hates the price but is willing to pay for it.

You are the consumer - you can make a simple choice. Does the software provide you enough benefit to justify paying for it. If yes, buy it. If no, don't use it at all. If people don't buy or use it, it will tell the developers they have to price it lower if they can. They did the work, so they get the decision, not you.

Bullsh*t, I am the one who is paying for it so I get to decide what I want I think is fair. And we wind back up at the "need" factor. The specific tool for the specific job. If I need Lightwave I need Lightwave. Not buying it only works when you get a massive amount of people behind that will also "boycot" the software, and that takes time. Having patients in as a virtue in a case like this doesn't help, time is money and if you are working freelance as a graphic designer, web designer...etc you don't have the time to sit and wait for prices to come down, you have ordereds to fill and clients to please and they won't wait for you, they also won't accept work done in some cheap alternative when there are others that can do it with professional software which will provide better quality. Freelance designers have rent to pay and families to feed.

Yes! If oil gets too expensive, people will buy less, the oil companies will have to cut prices. That's the way the market works.

No they won't. Oil is the life blood of many countries, people will travel less and prices for goods will rise. The economy will go down or become dormant but the oil tycoons will still be filthy rich. Why do you think that Opec is raising prices again? They know that people will have no choice but to pay a higher price for gas. Same with the software industry, they know that companies will pay because they need the software and without it they will go under.

Gas? Lots of students can't afford a car and you have to pay for gas? I don't believe you have absolutely no money for leisure. I don't believe you have no time to work extra hours to get more money. You certainly have time to post here, so why can't you work some more? It's all a matter of choice.

Yes choice. The software companies choice to make high quality or sh*t software. Their choice to but a 500% mark-up on their software. Their choice to leave flaws and bugs in a program so that they can fix them in the upgrade and make people pay a marked-up price for that too. We all have choices.

I know you can afford a Mac. I know you have a car.

So by this argument, if I can afford a Mac and have a car I must have the money to pay for $1,500 software? Again I strongly suggest a logic course.

I never said you throw your money away on luxuries. I said you either have some disposable income or have the time to earn more money. This has nothing to do with arrogance.

Yes it does. You have said the words selfish over and over. You have judged how people run their lives and even told them how to run their lives. You have ignored the main points in arguments, twisted their meanings to suit you or just totally dodge the argument all together and thrown out ramblings of how "wrong" it is. When you haven't told me WHY. The starving developer is a theory that was shot down because he is paid on salary not commission. What else do you have?

Actually I worked two jobs and bought the software I needed. I didn't give up. I'm not telling you to. I'm telling you that you can work harder. Giving up is something you do when you don't want to work. That is the alternative to working harder. It shouldn't be too hard considering the software you mentioned (Photoshop, and FCP) have educational discounts. Photoshop Elements is close enough for you learn on that - it's only $99. All of Apple's stuff have educ. discounts too.

Student discounts only take tax off of what I buy. It is still the same price. I do work hard, but what if that isn't enough? What if I still can't afford it after months and months of labor. Newer versions come out in that period of time and by the time I can afford the older version I may be several versions behind. Technology advances and I am still behind. The industry evolves and I am still behind. How would I be able to compete? One has to keep up with the times and there are few individuals out there that can afford ever piece of new software. And what if I work hard in a different way?
What if I learn how to program and help make cracks and serial number generators for other programs to help others like me out? There are many ways one can work hard and there are many differing perspectives on the meaning of "giving up."

Had you worked and paid for the software it would benefit the industry and yourself. You instead chose to paint software developers as "whiny" (when you said I should be a software developer), even though these are the people that work their butts off to make the tools for you to get ahead? What about them? Don't they deserve to be paid? Do you have any respect for them?

One, some are whiny. They bitch and moan and don't realize how good them have it. If their company loses $500,000 to piracy but has an overall profit of $36 million do they really have anything to complain about? Two, They are paid and paid well for what they do.
Taking a few copies or even a few thousand copies won't hurt their company overall if their product is good quality.
I have respect for the developers who say, "Piracy is a fact of life." The ones who want to lower piracy by making better products that people will want to buy instead of better anti-piracy security measures. Then that shows me they care more about their product than their profits.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Trygve:
Nope. My boss just said the company could no longer pay me, so I left.

Piracy is theft. If you can't afford something, you can't have it (or do you have a price point below which you never pirate?).

If you argue that you'd never buy it anyway, whay do you need it?

Did your boss say it was due to piracy? Companies use the pirate excuse way too much. Bad management, bad product, low investors are the biggest problems for the software companies. Not a college kid copying one of their products. But as much as the media and companies "demonize" software pirates I doubt I would believe what your company told me.

I never argued that I would never buy the software, you are putting words in my mouth. I can't have it? HAHaHAhahah! Just keep telling yourself that. I bought a copy of Ambrosia's Hacking game "Uplink" shelled out $25 for the program and haven't played it since. So yes I pay for some of my software but $25 is a lot different than $1,500. Some things I can afford somethings I can't. And I don't pirate, people share them with me as is their right.

[Macfreak7]

Originally posted by Beewee:
*snip*
And I don't pirate, people share them with me
as is their right.

More bullcrap.
People don't have the right to share something they don't own. You purchase the LICENSE of a software, that doesn't make you the owner of anything but YOUR license. Now depending on if it's a multi-user license or not, you can't just go around sharing that. That's what the whole issue is about..

Just because piracy can be more accurately definied as "copyright infringement," doesn't make it any better than stealing/theft.

[Trygve]

Show me the "starving" developer. Show me his skinny children. They work on salary not commission. They get paid regardless of if the product sells or not, gets pirated or not. The company may suffer if the product does poor in sales but if it does well and there are people pirating it the company isn't hurt. They just didn't have as big of a profit margin...but they still made a profit.

I have my own software business. I buy the computers, buy the compilers, buy PhotoShop and other tools used in my work and pay for my website.

When one of my applications is sold, I pay the credit card processing fees and at the end of the day, hopefully I have sold enough to pay the business expenses and for a roof over my head and food on my table.

I do not work on salary... if my programs do not sell, I earn zero. When people use my software without paying for it, it affects me.

[driven]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Would it bother you if you no longer had work because your employer wasn't generating enough sales to pay you?

... as is happening to many folks now in the software industry.

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by driven:
... as is happening to many folks now in the software industry.

yeah, but this is happening mostly in the low to mid end of the market. Softimage are hiring big time, so is Alias, Discreet, all the software makers of high-end 3D apps, which was what my point was, not those who pirate a $25 piece of shareware.

[driven]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
yeah, but this is happening mostly in the low to mid end of the market. Softimage are hiring big time, so is Alias, Discreet, all the software makers of high-end 3D apps, which was what my point was, not those who pirate a $25 piece of shareware.

It's happening industry wide, even in high-end enterprise apps.

Lower income = cost cutting measures which means layoffs or job exportations to cheaper labor markets.

[entrox]

I'll shut up. There's no point arguing with imbeciles.

[driven]

Originally posted by entrox:
I'll shut up. There's no point arguing with imbeciles.

Nice debate technique. Can't argue the points so you insult those that disagree with you. Kinda childish don't ya think?

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Macfreak7:
More bullcrap.
People don't have the right to share something they don't own. You purchase the LICENSE of a software, that doesn't make you the owner of anything but YOUR license. Now depending on if it's a multi-user license or not, you can't just go around sharing that. That's what the whole issue is about..

Just because piracy can be more accurately definied as "copyright infringement," doesn't make it any better than stealing/theft.

No, but it means that it isn't stealing. It is the breach of a contract that you agreed when you installed the software. Calling it "stealing" is completely inaccurate and is just a tactic used to raise hatered of "software pirates." Most people are so ignorant that you can tell them that hackers could launch nuclear missles through their phonelines and they would believe it.

Well, thats how you feel. But personally I didn't go to a store to buy a $50.00 license to Warcraft3. I went to the store to "buy" warcraft3. And no industry is going to tell me that I don't own it. If that were the case they could make up contracts that said I had to upgrade my software every year. It is complete bullsh*t.

"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." -- Thomas Jefferson.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Trygve:
I have my own software business. I buy the computers, buy the compilers, buy PhotoShop and other tools used in my work and pay for my website.

When one of my applications is sold, I pay the credit card processing fees and at the end of the day, hopefully I have sold enough to pay the business expenses and for a roof over my head and food on my table.

I do not work on salary... if my programs do not sell, I earn zero. When people use my software without paying for it, it affects me.

Of course there are always acceptions. Region and situation can I have everything to do with. A small business doesn't make as much money as the larger corporations. Or if someone lives in a poor country that too will affect it. The poor economy also has this affect. Or it could also be that your software isn't any good.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by entrox:
I'll shut up. There's no point arguing with imbeciles.

So people who don't automatically
agree with your point of view are automatically stupid? That's a mature way to think of things.