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torsoboy · 01:32 PM

Woah! Poland's president, army chief of staff, the navy chief commander, heads of the air and land forces, national bank president, deputy foreign minister, army chaplain, head of the National Security Office, deputy parliament speaker, Olympic Committee head, civil rights commissioner and at least two presidential aides and three lawmakers were killed this morning when their plane crashed!

Polish president, 96 others killed in jet crash - Europe- msnbc.com

What is going to happen over there? Wow... this is a HUGE loss for Poland.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 10, 2010, 01:50 PM

Damn.

On a side note was the editor at msnbc on the plane also?

If not I guess they are just running low on N's and periods.

imitchellg5 · 02:01 PM

It's a very sad loss indeed. I hope that everything stays relatively sane in the country as they figure out how to deal with the immense loss and elect replacements. Also, it looks like it's the end of the line for the Tu-154, with several fatal crashes over the last couple of years.

reader50 · Apr 10, 2010, 02:55 PM

I predict conspiracy theories. Which will be investigated.

It's odd that particular plane would crash - it had to have received above-average maintenance. And an above-average pilot.

0157988944 · Apr 10, 2010, 03:57 PM

Apparently they were aware the plane wasn't safe, numerous pilots had refused to fly it. A good question is why would they put so many important people on one plane?

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analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 10, 2010, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

Apparently they were aware the plane wasn't safe, numerous pilots had refused to fly it. A good question is why would they put so many important people on one plane?

Better question. Why are pilots who are flying planes that are known to be unsafe ignoring instructions not to land at a foggy airport?

mduell · Apr 10, 2010, 04:05 PM

Crashed on the fourth approach attempt in heavy fog... that's pilot error to even be in that situation. Probably under a lot of pressure to land.

torsoboy · Apr 10, 2010, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

A good question is why would they put so many important people on one plane?

I was wondering the same thing; why put everyone on the same plane? Maybe they couldn't afford more than one plane?

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 10, 2010, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by torsoboy

I was wondering the same thing; why put everyone on the same plane? Maybe they couldn't afford more than one plane?

What do they do in the US? If the pres travels on airforce 1 I assume his higher ups aren't flying coach on an American Airlines flight behind them.

imitchellg5 · Apr 10, 2010, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by torsoboy

I was wondering the same thing; why put everyone on the same plane? Maybe they couldn't afford more than one plane?

Why would they use more than one plane if one did the job? Poland's air force also uses Yak 40s, but those are much smaller.

This particular Tu-154 received a complete overhaul last year. It's the last of the 154s in Poland's air force. Quite a beautiful plane IMHO:

That last photo was taken just last month on March 25th, the cockpit shot in 2008. As you can see it's a fairly up to date setup, even before they redid it. Apparently the pilots were attempting to land in ILS conditions at an airport without any ILS support, not even runway lights. That's pretty dangerous. I imagine there was kind of a lot of pressure though to land.

ajprice · Apr 10, 2010, 06:26 PM

BBC - BBC News - Polish President Lech Kaczynski dies in plane crash

Russian media reports said the pilots ignored advice from air traffic control to divert to another airport...

...Russian media carried claims that the plane's crew were at fault for the crash.
"Flight controllers... suggested that the plane be forwarded to Minsk but as far as we know the crew took an independent decision to land the plane in Smolensk," Smolensk regional government spokesman Andrei Yevseyenkov told Russian TV.

So the pilots came to a foggy airport, ignored air traffic control and tried to land anyway? In any plane that's not good, with the people this had on board that's so far beyond not good.

Whats the distance from Minsk to Smolensk?

imitchellg5 · Apr 10, 2010, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by ajprice

Whats the distance from Minsk to Smolensk?

About 250 kilometers by air.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 10, 2010, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

This particular Tu-154 received a complete overhaul last year. It's the last of the 154s in Poland's air force. Quite a beautiful plane IMHO:

Doesn't mean just because it is pretty and got an overhaul it is safe. Something is the technology must have some sort of fault as 66 of these suckers have crashed in 40 years.

imitchellg5 · Apr 10, 2010, 06:39 PM

I wasn't saying that it was safe, but I don't think that a country like Poland with a very well-run air force would make a fatal mistake in an overhaul of an airplane, especially the presidential aircraft.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 10, 2010, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

I wasn't saying that it was safe, but I don't think that a country like Poland with a very well-run air force would make a fatal mistake in an overhaul of an airplane, especially the presidential aircraft.

66 crashes in 40 years seems really high to me though. How would you measure this against the norm?

imitchellg5 · Apr 10, 2010, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

66 crashes in 40 years seems really high to me though. How would you measure this against the norm?

66 is pretty high by Western standards, but isn't too high when you consider that there were over 1000 of these machines built. For comparison, the Boeing 767 has been in 40 accidents in a little over 25 years with nearly 1000 built. 6 Tu-154s were lost to terrorism, quite a few to unplowed runways (I guess that happens in Siberia), a couple due to being overloaded past specifications and thus running out of fuel, a couple from running into things on the ground (including a DHL plane). The vast majority of wrecks though seem to be from the plane flying through adverse weather that probably would be safe in the west, but due to infrastructure on the ground, coupled with ancient technology in the cockpit, turned fatal. Of course you have to remember that a lot of these planes have operated through numerous wars, probably with no maintenance occuring at all, in countries such as Afghanistan and Iran ( I trust an aircraft operated in Iran as far as I can throw it). And that's what it looks like happened here as well.

turtle777 · Apr 10, 2010, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

What do they do in the US? If the pres travels on airforce 1 I assume his higher ups aren't flying coach on an American Airlines flight behind them.

Obama doesn't need a plane, he is superman.

But seriously, I don't think you would find that kind of accumulation of people in an Airforce One.

-t

imitchellg5 · Apr 10, 2010, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Obama doesn't need a plane, he is superman.

But seriously, I don't think you would find that kind of accumulation of people in an Airforce One.

-t

Generally that's what the C-32s are for, although the VC-25s do have seating for 76 VIPs. Ironically, the C-32s have more seating area, but only 45 passenger seats.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 10, 2010, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Obama doesn't need a plane, he is superman.

But seriously, I don't think you would find that kind of accumulation of people in an Airforce One.

-t

Well it seems he doesn't fly solo:

"Air Force One also has quarters for those who accompany the President, including senior advisors, Secret Service officers"

Air Force One | The White House

Big Mac · Apr 11, 2010, 01:06 AM

That's a very sad development - he seemed like a good leader. [conspiracy]Payback perhaps for Poland's increasing coziness with the West?[/conspiracy]

Simon · 01:31 AM

Complete hull loss with casualties is always a tragedy.

Wasn't he the guy who banned an annual gay parade as mayor of Warsaw?

Spheric Harlot · Apr 11, 2010, 04:37 AM

This is terrible news - mostly because the flight was heading to the memorial service for the massacre of Kattyn, where the Soviets murdered thousands of innocent Poles in WW2. This was to be the first official joint commemoration of what was a complete taboo in Russia for sixty years until *very* recently (like, a few months ago).

Beyond that, no love for Kaczynski here.

Captain Obvious · Apr 11, 2010, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by reader50

I predict conspiracy theories. Which will be investigated.

I predict several insensitive and politically incorrect yet hilarious jokes.

And STFU if on some level the rest of you didn't think the same thing.

PS: Poland's coziness with the U.S. is fostered more by cultural affection than by political leadership.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 11, 2010, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

Wasn't he the guy who banned an annual gay parade as mayor of Warsaw?

OMG they must have put a gay bomb on the plane!

turtle777 · Apr 11, 2010, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

OMG they must have put a gay bomb on the plane!

No, a stupid pilot was enough. No word on whether he was gay or not.

-t

voodoo · Apr 11, 2010, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Crashed on the fourth approach attempt in heavy fog... that's pilot error to even be in that situation. Probably under a lot of pressure to land.

Yes, very likely.

My condolences to the Polish people and the families involved. A tragedy.

analogue SPRINKLES · Apr 11, 2010, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

No, a stupid pilot was enough. No word on whether he was gay or not.

-t

You're right, gay would have put it over the top when stupid seemed to get the job done.