[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I've not read the previous two pages, so forgive me for repeating anything which has been said...

Why, exactly, is Joe Punter going to buy a Mac which runs Windows when he can go buy a cheapo box for much less which runs Windows? Apple aren't thinking like punters here - they're thinking like geeks.

I fear that this will end in tears. Don't know why but I feel it in my bones.

Certainly Apple still has to entice users with the appeal of OS X, their iapps and pro apps, and their hardware. But the theory here is that one of the prime reasons people don't switch is that they have an investment in time and money with Windows and Windows apps, and people don't want to just junk all that in one fell swoop. So this gives them a transition path.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Exactly. Joe Punter hasn't been buying them and probably won't do so in the future. He'll continue to buy the cheapest Windows box available, since he has no clue even what an operating system is, let alone why he'd want to be running a different one on a more expensive machine.

But punters generally aren't buying the cheapest box available - that's what businesses and the government do. Many punters are quite happy to have a bit of style in their lifes, even at a premium pice, as demonstrated by the success of Sony, BMW, San Pelligrino and other design led brands.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by 11011001

Of course not, Aspyr also publishes PC games. I never said anything about them going out of business. To reiterate, they don't have much incentive to port Mac games anymore.

Actually, I meant MacSoft, not Aspyr. (Not a gamer, really, so my mistake.) Is MacSoft gonna close shop over this?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

But punters generally aren't buying the cheapest box available

All the Windows users I know are. That's kind of what's driven the Windows cartel from the very start - price lowering through competition between different hardware manufacturers.

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Many punters are quite happy to have a bit of style in their lifes, even at a premium pice, as demonstrated by the success of Sony, BMW, San Pelligrino and other design led brands.

All this style you're talking about can be added to a PC later for 30 quid. Want a silver box for a PC which makes it look enough like a G5 to impress Jane Punter? 30 quid and a word with your neighbour's nephew who'll fit it for you for a couple of cans of beer.

I'm not down with the label thing for computers - I don't think folks are that bothered about the labels on things which they can't wear to the local social event.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Dakar

This has the upside of luring a few geeks from the otherside as well as giving Gx users an added reason to upgrade to intel.

[Toyin]

I'm not sure how I feel about this, it's taken a while to get the knot out of my stomach, but this is a BOLD move on Apple's part. They know they've got the superior OS and are willing to put their money where there mouth is. I think the coup de gras would be developing a version of X-code that could compile for both OSes. I'm not a programmer so I don't know if it's possible. In conjunction with that develop a 'Rosetta like' program, that converts Windows programs to OSX native programs on the fly. These programs would look like OS-X native programs but be a bit more clunky and maybe 90% native Windows speed.

Just imagine it wouldn't matter if Adobe and the other's wrote programs for Windows or OS-X. I see 3 scenarios

Developer A codes for Windows only. Programs run okay on OSX and well on Windows. They continue to develop for Windows. Those with monopolies (ie Adobe) may choose to do this, but are at risk of loosing OS-X clients to native solutions.

Developer B codes for Windows only. Sees the benefit of using X-code and now can compile programs that work in Windows and OSX.

Developer C codes for OS-X and has smartly moved to X-code. Now they can expand their market share to the Windows world as well.

Developers B & C become a HUGE threat to Developer A who needs to get with the program.

Also that 90% speed hit becomes insignificant when you're dealing with a more stable virus free system, so some Windows user my opt to just stay in OS-X.

Oh well I can always dream

[mintcake]

This is Apple directly applying the lesson they learned with the iPod. They turned a cool but niche gadget into a maHOOsive monopolistic cash cow by releasing iTunes for Windows and making the iPod a Windows gadget that happens to be Mac compatible, rather than the other way round. The rest was history.

What they did to the iPod, they've just done to the Mac.

This is clearly a great move for Apple shareholders. Not quite so sure it's a great move for the 'Apple faithful' - though it probably is for them too.

So... um... has anyone been able to determine whether Boot Camp will *only* work with a retail copy of XP? I ask in the interests of academic research only.

[Homer1946]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

How can you make such a presumption? If we're talking about smaller developers, I would tend to agree. But I'm referring to the major applications that make or break a platform. Now that Apple's Mactels are Wintels with a simple reboot, there's rapidly decreasing incentive for major application developers to continue supporting OS X.

Dual booting is NOT the same as supporting Windows application on the Mac via something like WINE. I agree strongly that including native support for Windows applications as a SUPPORTED OS X feature would cause loss of native Mc applications. However the ability to dual boot into XP that the user must purchase separately (and is not supported by Apple) would not allow developers to advertise their Applications as Mac compatible and I do not think would result in any loss of developers.

I have never seen a Linux developer leave saying,"Well, just boot into Windows and you can run our software".

[Dark Helmet]

I think the best way Apple could implement this is by making a "classic" for windows. That means any windows app will run transparently in OSX but uglier.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Representative: "Well, Apple Computer now officially supports Windows on its hardware. You can still run OS X for other things, but for our software you'll need to run Windows instead. We're clearly not doing anything that Apple disapproves of."

BZZZZT! WRONG!

Allow me to point out the flaw in this argument:

Apple does not OFFICIALLY support Windows running on their machines.

Oh, and you forgot the last part of that exchange:

Customer: Well then, I will be giving my money to a different company that supports Mac OS X.

[rhodesy]

I downloaded the bootcamp and it told me I needed to update my firmware - so I downloaded the new firmware and tried to install it but it won't let me install it - it says my computer doesn't need it.

I updated to 10.4.6 yesterday. I'm on a macbook pro.

Thanks
rhodesy

[olePigeon]

I didn't make it into the article. Waaah!

5 seconds of fame denied.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by z0ne81

Just letting you all know I tried this on my macbook pro. It kernal paniced when I clicked 'restart' to install windows later and now it won't boot. I can't repair my disk with a the os x startup either as it says 'invalid extent entry'

Originally Posted by rhodesy

I downloaded the bootcamp and it told me I needed to update my firmware - so I downloaded the new firmware and tried to install it but it won't let me install it - it says my computer doesn't need it.

The dark side has won - you are all Windows' bitches now!

[mintcake]

Yep, the more I read people's hands on experiences, the more I'm reminded of why I switched.

I'm still gonna try this at some point though. Pharaoh and Emperor running on my Macbook Pro? How can I resist?

[Binarymix]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

I think the best way Apple could implement this is by making a "classic" for windows. That means any windows app will run transparently in OSX but uglier.

I thought they should have done this aswell.

[baw]

Guess that XP on Mac contest was a waste of everyone's time.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by baw

Guess that XP on Mac contest was a waste of everyone's time.

Not for the guys that won $13,000

[baw]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet

Not for the guys that won $13,000

true dat

[driven]

Maybe Dvorak was right about the Windows thing.

(ducking for cover)

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by driven

Maybe Dvorak was right about the Windows thing.

(ducking for cover)

He was right about the whole intel switch thing but I really don't think Apple would move to using Vista as its own OS. It doesn't make sense.

[M. Eriksen]

Does anyone know if you'll be able to access the HFS partition when booting in XP or will you still need a third party software?

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by z0ne81
Just letting you all know I tried this on my macbook pro. It kernal paniced when I clicked 'restart' to install windows later and now it won't boot. I can't repair my disk with a the os x startup either as it says 'invalid extent entry'

sorry to hear that but the software is;

[Binarymix]

Originally Posted by chuonthis

Does anyone know if you'll be able to access the HFS partition when booting in XP or will you still need a third party software?

You'll need MacDrive:

http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive6/

[zombie67]

wow, finally find why AAPL jumped almost 10% today!!!

[Salty]

I'm half interested in this. If I could turn the Windows Partition into a completely separate partition that had no ability to harm the rest of my files. If I could lock Windows away under lock and key just so I could play a few games I'd be OK with it. Otherwise...

[Ilgaz]

What would Apple "lose" if they gave up OS X? As shares jumped 10%...

Based on Web rumors, Microsoft simply deleted whole Vista source and started coding over win 2003 kernel. I mean,weird things happen.

Who would guess Apple releasing Intel machines and "attacking" PowerPC to a degree which no Dell troll would have dreamed of?

What happens if "OS X Experience for Vista" boxes ship?

[Ilgaz]

For people thinking about Xcode compatability: There is a HUGE thing in windows land named "Microsoft Visual Studio". No developer already using it can give it up for Xcode.

I really know many professional windows developers and I saw their work environment.

A very simple URL explaining all if you think
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs...ler_.26_Linker

[MacMan4000]

So is anyone else wondering if Apple was planning this all along or if they took the idea from the contest and ran with it, making their own version in the process? or crazier yet, did they steal the contest winners code and tweak it to make it more compatable? (kidding)

But seriously, there is no reason to worry about Mac developement. This thread is proof of that. The fact that we made a 5 page thread in a few hours arguing/worrying about the future of Mac proves that there is enough of a following to continue development. Honestly can you picture a bunch of Windoze geeks having this same discusion? no, thats because Windoze does not invoke a cult following like Mac does.

Viva la Mac!

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

sorry to hear that but the software is; BETA!

Really?

Available as a download, Boot Camp public beta allows users with a Microsoft Windows XP installation disc to install Windows XP on an Intel-based Mac.

[Ilgaz]

Originally Posted by MacMan4000

So is anyone else wondering if Apple was planning this all along or if they took the idea from the contest and ran with it, making their own version in the process? or crazier yet, did they steal the contest winners code and tweak it to make it more compatable? (kidding)

But seriously, there is no reason to worry about Mac developement. This thread is proof of that. The fact that we made a 5 page thread in a few hours arguing/worrying about the future of Mac proves that there is enough of a following to continue development. Honestly can you picture a bunch of Windoze geeks having this same discusion? no, thats because Windoze does not invoke a cult following like Mac does.

Viva la Mac!

All my software is from trustable, mac only software houses so I don't have question for future of them.

I do have question for "new", "potential" software development plans and the amazing, unbeliavable cult like response on everything Apple does.

I was running Amiga 1200 in start of 90s and we had a similar community, we all know what happened after that.

[Eriamjh]

Enough with all this baseless conjecture. Where is the thread of people who are installing and testing it? HL2 anyone?

[Hawkeye_a]

If users can install WinXP onto their Mactels ? why SHOULD any developer write software for the already tiny marketshare of MacOS users ?

Not a good move imo...at least looking at it from a developer standpoint.

One thing's for sure.....you wont be seeing any games anymore on MacOSX.

i wonder if Avi knew about this move and why he has chosen to leave Apple ?

I dont fear for Apple....i fear for the MacOS.

[asdasd]

For people thinking about Xcode compatability: There is a HUGE thing in windows land named "Microsoft Visual Studio". No developer already using it can give it up for Xcode.

Having worked on both I can tell you that Visual Studio is aeons ahead of xCode and getting better.

[Ilgaz]

Enough with all this baseless conjecture. Where is the thread of people who are installing and testing it? HL2 anyone?

As a computer user since 80s and by luck(!), always picked "losing but better side", I had to share some experiences, sorry for breaking your party.

[Ilgaz]

Originally Posted by asdasd

Having worked on both I can tell you that Visual Studio is aeons ahead of xCode and getting better.

Eh, the link I provided explains how to compile Mozilla, yes the very same program in basis of Firefox , the "Microsoft killer" under MS Visual Studio.

Yep, you need MS Visual Studio to compile Mozilla

It shows the "hidden hand" of empire!

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

If users can install WinXP onto their Mactels ? why SHOULD any developer write software for the already tiny marketshare of MacOS users ?

Not a good move imo...at least looking at it from a developer standpoint.

One thing's for sure.....you wont be seeing any games anymore on MacOSX.

i wonder if Avi knew about this move and why he has chosen to leave Apple ?

I dont fear for Apple....i fear for the MacOS.

If I wanted to buy Windows software and a Windows machine I would. I don't. I want to buy a Mac and run Mac software on Mac OS X. This is why the Mac market won't be affected.

If someone wanted to run Windows software they most likely already have a PC. If they had no interest in running Mac software they wouldn't have bought a Mac in the first place.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Ilgaz

All my software is from trustable, mac only software houses so I don't have question for future of them.

I do have question for "new", "potential" software development plans and the amazing, unbeliavable cult like response on everything Apple does.

I was running Amiga 1200 in start of 90s and we had a similar community, we all know what happened after that.

Well, most of us live in the real world and need Microsoft Office, Adobe and other software from Mac and Windows houses.

Regarding the Amiga. Not only was it a niche market... In the early 90's, Commodore went bankrupt. Apple is FAR from going bankrupt.

[zombie67]

This is a good news. Now, I can move all my projects to one machine now! Love OS X, but still need to make living with XP.

[Ilgaz]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Well, most of us live in the real world and need Microsoft Office, Adobe and other software from Mac and Windows houses.

Regarding the Amiga. Not only was it a niche market... In the early 90's, Commodore went bankrupt. Apple is FAR from going bankrupt.

I say a simple thing and you don't understand (on purpose?)

I say, if Apple says "OK, I am switching to Windows", I will NOT be effected. I am concerned about the "multiplatform" vendors future releases.

I live in a "Real world" too, the receipts here are easily over $100k or more. I am a professional video/movie editor. I DO HAVE RIGHT to question about this decision for my future plans.

For example... Go Mac based AVID or PC (windows) based AVID? Go AVI or Quicktime?

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

If users can install WinXP onto their Mactels ? why SHOULD any developer write software for the already tiny marketshare of MacOS users ?

Because most Mac users aren't going to dual boot.

"Oh, just go out, buy Windows XP, install Boot Camp from Apple, install Windows XP, than reboot, and run the application."

How is that acceptable in ANY WAY.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

Not a good move imo...at least looking at it from a developer standpoint.

More like "Not a good move... from a geek perspective." as no normal year would consider boot camp an acceptable and viable option.

That being said, For someone that really wanted a Mac, but knew that they would need to run Windows applications... I'm excited.

One thing's for sure.....you wont be seeing any games anymore on MacOSX.

To be honest, games have always been an issue... but we will have to wait and see. With the Intel transition, it may be easier for game developers to transition their games. There is still a market for native applications. And while many will be willing to reboot into Windows, many people wont.

If Apple killed OS X, they should know that they would lose all of my business. My connection to Apple is through the OS. Not the hardware, not the iPod or iTMS.

Apple wants all they money they can get. I'm sure they get this all the time "Oh, I want a Mac, but my (wife, husband, kids) needs to run Windows" or "What if I don't like it!" This gives Apple MORE leverage when selling hardware... PERIOD.

[Ilgaz]

So called "geeks" love Linux and hate Windows but if they leak the Slashdot stats, 90% of them turns out to be using windows.

I said at beginning of mactel story and now I say at the natural overcome of dual boot:

"Mactel word is kind of joke but Wintel is real, it is Microsoft and Intel land out there".

As you may guess, a bit confused and pessimist here. So,leaving thread. Have a nice day, I go to sleep.

[breakbeat46]

I now can:

Use the Mini as the coolest HTPC.

PLAY GAMES!

and be able to run FCP Studio.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Because most Mac users aren't going to dual boot.

Exactly, everyone is treating this like Apple just announced that all computers will come preloaded with Windows and OS X. People have always been able to run windows programs on Macs in the form of Virtual PC. This is just a different solution, which trades convenience (having to reboot into Windows) for compatibility (native performance). The same people who would've bought Virtual PC last year will use Boot Camp now. It's not like current users have been itching to ditch OS X for Windows, if only they could keep using the same hardware. And prospective users switch primarily for OS X, not the hardware, so Boot Camp is simply an incentive to make the switch easier. And if someone really does want to pay the premium just for the nice hardware to run Windows, more power to 'em, but I think they'll be the small minority.

The only area where I can see this negatively affecting OS X development is games, but, at the same time, casual gamers who were hesitant to switch before can now buy a Mac and use OS X, and continue to play their favorite games on Windows, all on one machine.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by breakbeat46

I now can:

Use the Mini as the coolest HTPC.

PLAY GAMES!

and be able to run FCP Studio.

I wouldn't be too sure about that last one.

[breakbeat46]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

I wouldn't be too sure about that last one.

I meant that I'd use the mini as a dedicated HTPC attached to my NAS that currently has a big black P4 HTPC attached to it.

I'd use at least the iMac or wait for the new towers to come out for games and fcp.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a

If users can install WinXP onto their Mactels ? why SHOULD any developer write software for the already tiny marketshare of MacOS users ?

Not a good move imo...at least looking at it from a developer standpoint.

One thing's for sure.....you wont be seeing any games anymore on MacOSX.

i wonder if Avi knew about this move and why he has chosen to leave Apple ?

I dont fear for Apple....i fear for the MacOS.

Oh come now .... IBM had Windows on OS/2 and it didn't stop people from developing for OS/2 at all.

err ... ahh .... nevermind. Bad example.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by driven

Oh come now .... IBM had Windows on OS/2 and it didn't stop people from developing for OS/2 at all.

err ... ahh .... nevermind. Bad example.

The thing was, nobody EVER developed for OS/2... big difference.

Also, OS/2 had serious other issues... like "being able to install"

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So... What, exactly, is it meant to do? Make it easier for Mac users to occasionally boot to Windows or to draw Windows users over to the Mac?

The former is my guess. They aren't really launching any major campaign based on Boot Camp — the only mention on their front page is an item in the news ticker. Doesn't look like they consider it to be a big advertising bullet point, at least not yet.

[xe0]

Boot Camp could have a double meaning.

Maybe this app was released in order to discipline the OSX user base in becoming desensitized to the idea of running Windows on a Mac..

[goMac]

Originally Posted by xe0

Boot Camp could have a double meaning.

Maybe this app was released in order to discipline the OSX user base in becoming desensitized to the idea of running Windows on a Mac..

Doubt it. If Apple wanted to ditch Mac OS X they wouldn't be releasing 10.5. My guess is they're trying to do the OS/2 thing in reverse (of course this would assume Apple is working on Dharma, which I still think is true, which I predicted was true along with Apple working on running Windows on a Mac.)